|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Should you give to beggars?
|
TraineeChristian
Shipmate
# 12972
|
Posted
I'm imagine this has come up before at some point, but not since I've been lurking I think.
Whenever I see a person begging I never know whether I should give them money. Some people say you shouldn't (as they assume they'd spend it on drugs/alcohol/whatever got them in that situation in the first place) yet I always wonder if that's making a big assumption about that person, and I feel guilty if I walk past. What is the best thing to do?
Where I used to live (Bristol) the police encouraged us not to give to beggars but to put money in designated collection boxes in the major shopping centres. The money was then used for a programme similiar to Shelter. A great idea I thought, though there doesn't seem to be an equivalent programme where I live now, and that doesn't stop the problem of what to do if you're personally accosted in the street by someone asking for money.
What do you do?
Posts: 274 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
It is indeed a complex problem.
My personal solution has been to carry with me prepaid gift cards for McDonald's or other ubiquitous fast food places (needs to be ubiquitous so that you can be sure the homeless person can get there). This insures your donation can not be used for drugs or alcohol (although it doesn't prevent the person from selling the card to fund that). And it insures I have the means to contribute on hand. Indeed, it takes the pressure of making an instant decision off-- I already made the decision and budgeted the funds when I bought the cards, this is just a follow up on that decision. It does not provide a long-term solution, but I figure it keeps the person alive for one more day so that those who do work on long-term solutions have time to get to him/her.
More courageous/generous friends will give more than just food, they give time. They take the person out for a meal, sit down with them and really listen. This is IMHO the best solution as many homeless will tell you of the yearning to be noticed, to be recognized and respected.
Others have suggested that it's not our place to judge how the person spends your donation. Alcohol may be a form of self-medicating when more socially acceptable means are not. Our responsibility is to give-- what happens from there on out is not our job. A reasonable argument I think, and gets to the heart of why we give-- is it for the person, or for ourselves? If we believe that giving is as necessary for our own personal spiritual health as it is for the physical comfort of the beggar, perhaps what s/he does is not so important.
Any of the above should IMHO be combined with donations to long-term solutions: homeless shelters, nonprofit rehab, soup kitchens, etc. I don't think it can or should be either/or-- both are needed. It's really the same issues you have with a famine or natural disaster in the developing world-- you need to combine both immediate aid to keep people alive today with long-term strategic development to reduce dependency and enable future independence.
I tend to chalk the critics of immediate aid for the homeless-- which usually come from local businesses or police-- as the result of self-interest. Not that we shouldn't sympathize with the owner of a chic boutique or 5 star restaurant whose patrons are turned off by the beggar outside the door. But just realize their argument may be a bit biased.
--------------------
“Be not afraid does not mean we cannot have fear… the words say we do not need to be the fear we have… We have places of fear inside of us, but we have other places—with names like trust & hope & faith” -P. Palmer
Posts: 5683 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
|
Posted
I follow my gut instinct at the time.
I don't believe we can stereotype people who ask for money on the street. For example, many people claim that most are mentally ill or on drugs, but quite a few homeless in my city are mothers with young children, so.....none of us know precisely the circumstances of the person standing in front of us.
Anyway, since my refugee work sometimes leads me into places where I encounter panhandlers, and since my neighborhood also has quite a few, I've come to know some of them and sometimes engage in conversations.
My social worker antennae tend to lead me, and I'm not adverse to quizzing a person whose story doesn't add up. Once in a while I will tell them that they have a story with too many holes in it.
But I've also given away bottles of water, straw hats, and bus tickets as well as money.
And I try to remember those times when I've had to ask favors of strangers myself.
Follow your inner guide on this.
sabine
--------------------
Find out who you are, and then do it on purpose. --Dolly Parton
Posts: 5403 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
|
Posted
AFAIK there are "Big Issue" sellers in most UK cities; that's a reliable charity for the homeless that provides a basic means of earning money. The Salvation Army also welcome donations. If it's a common problem in your area, would it be worth broaching the subject with your church to see if there is anything positive you can do as a community? If a group of churches can set up a weekly soup run or something of the sort, and make time to talk to the people that turn up, they can provide more consistent and positive help to the homeless.
Posts: 477 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fuzzipeg
Shipmate
# 10107
|
Posted
We have so many beggars at intersections it is impossible to give to all of them. I usually give food, doggie bags, that sort of thing.
When it comes to money....yes...sometimes though opening a car window can be a risky thing so I tend not to at intersections as it can be a ploy to attempt to steal something.
I am also aware that I have a tendency to say "No" when maybe I shouldn't...that's natural when there are lots of beggars.
As to whom to give to? That's difficult because we are enjoined to give and not make judgements on how the money is spent because we don't know. The recipient is the one who makes the choice, we are just supposed to give unconditionally.
--------------------
http://quodsemper.blogspot.com
Posts: 902 | From: Johannesburg, South Africa | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
|
Posted
I do not go up to the big city often, so it is hard for me to make decisions about giving or not. I tend to put a certain amount of cash (in pound coins) in my pocket. The amount varies according to my personal finances. I then give the coins out as I encounter beggers until it is all gone. After that, I walk past without guilt.
--------------------
tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 774 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
|
Posted
If I have money, I give it when asked.
If I don't have money, I look the person in the eye and say, "I'm sorry, I don't have any money."
This is for beggars on the corner as well as family members.
Why do I give money to people begging on the street? Because I can.
Should this influence your own personal choices? *shrug* I'm not your momma or your accountant.
--------------------
As your Senior Warden, all I ask is unswerving loyalty and blind obedience.
--Me, to the vestry at my parish.
And then they laughed for some reason.
Shavin' my head, curin' cancer.
Posts: 10188 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
What everyone above said.
Sometimes I've said no and felt very guilty afterwards, even to the point of feeling that I committed a sin. One such incident happened a few months ago, when a young man approached me and asked for money. When I said no, he reacted with such a look of surprise and hurt that I thought about it long afterward. It happened right around Christmas time, and I felt so guilty I put a $10 bill in the next Salvation Army kettle I saw.
I've also fallen for hard luck stories that proved to be clearly the work of con artists. Once a young man told me he needed bus fare to get home, and I gave him some loose change. I saw him the very next day, on the very same corner, doing the very same thing.
Another time I was approached by a young man who said he was a German tourist and that his wallet and passport had been stolen. He needed bus fare to get to the German consultate. After I gave him the money, he showed a sudden and distinct lack of interest in information about which bus to take to get to the consulate.
--------------------
I sometimes wonder whether the reason that puritanical religious types are so keen on marriage is their certain knowledge that it's the one way to make sure that people get the least amount of sex. – Louis de Berničres, A Partisan's Daughter
Posts: 7060 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gentleman Ranker
Shipmate
# 15518
|
Posted
Trying to look for a Christian perspective on this, I find in the [url= http://"http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm"]Didache[/url] 1, both this: quote:
Give to every one that asks you, and ask it not back; for the Father wills that to all should be given of our own blessings (free gifts). Happy is he that gives according to the commandment; for he is guiltless.
and this: quote:
But also now concerning this, it has been said, Let your alms sweat in your hands, until you know to whom you should give.
One sees also (Ch. 11) a warning that "prophets" asking for money or some other kind of free ride are false prophets.
So it seems that while generosity to the needy is commended (if not actually commanded), some discretion is also advised.
I will not give to those if my "read" on them is that they're conning me or just don't care to occupy themselves except by begging. If I think someone is genuinely unfortunate (in whatever way, note that this does not necessarily require that they be "deserving"), I'll be much more likely to give them something.
regards,
GR
Posts: 66 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
I agree, Gentleman Ranker-- as long as such biblically commended direct giving doesn't make me so pleased with myself as to neglect more effective channels.
It seems to me that the Bible in general, and the New Testament especially, doesn't share the habitual bureaucrat's so-modern circumspection about always going through the system. Deal person-to-person, too.
When Joseph and Mary showed up in Bethlehem, the system set up to accommodate visitors was full. They got so much as a stable because someone went beyond the system.
--------------------
We are part of the earth and it is part of us... What befalls the earth befalls all the sons of the earth --Chief Seattle
Posts: 7708 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
TraineeChristian
Shipmate
# 12972
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
I've also fallen for hard luck stories that proved to be clearly the work of con artists. Once a young man told me he needed bus fare to get home, and I gave him some loose change. I saw him the very next day, on the very same corner, doing the very same thing.
We have that problem here too. There's a young man I often see in the street outside my house on Saturdays who my housemates and I have nicknamed 'Mr 90p'. He's a fairly well presented person (not sleeping rough by the looks) who accosts each person as he walks down the street always saying he's lost his bus fare and asking each person for 90p.
However others are harder to 'read'. I appreciate what people are saying about gut instinct, but I often get it wrong. I don't know whether giving is really about appeasing one's conscience as I often feel bad about it afterwards even if I have given money.
Lots of food for thought, Cliffdweller. Though I've found that some people are more willing to talk about themselves than others, so sometimes I haven't had much luck in finding out much about them. Maybe they think I won't give them money or will judge them if they tell me what their problems are.
Posts: 274 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
|
Posted
To me it all comes down to cases.
I tend not to give in to aggressive panhandlers. On the other hand, there have been occasions when I've seen someone obviously in need, and I just felt called to do something...one day DP and I were driving in a amall town and saw a thin, disheveled old man rooting around in the dumpster behind a bar. We looked at each other and...we got a takeout meal for him and gave it to him, and he seemed genuinely grateful, as well as a little shocked. One morning, at the beginning of a vacation as we stopped in a park to let the dog run, we saw a similar situation -- an old, ill-kept man who had obviously been sleeping in the woods emerged with his rolled-up tarp and sleeping bag, and started rummaging in the park trash cans for bottles and cans. We'd just stopped at McDonald's for breakfast, which we'd intended to eat in the park...but we gave both our breakfasts to the man.
Posts: 5836 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Max_Power
Shipmate
# 13547
|
Posted
Short answer: yes.
Long answer: you never know what an individual on the street is up against. Family difficulties, drugs and alcohol problems, mental illness, and the list goes on. As Christians and social beings we need to take care of those who cannot.
That said, however, my preferred method of donation is a Tim Horton's gift certificate. When someone asks for change for a cup of coffee, and you give him/her a Timmie's gift certificate, you don't need to worry that your donation is going to go to waste.
Posts: 58 | From: Aylmer, QC | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
In agreement with other posters. I try to balance two sets of advice I have received. One friend (a moderately well-known playright) who had done street social work for the YMCA told me never to give, as the money went directly to pushers to pay for drugs. Another, a retired cleric who had many years of work with aboriginals, often in difficult situations, told me to rely on my antennae. It might be, he told me, that the money would go directly into a bottle. It might also be that it would make the difference between the recipient pulling the trick that would kill him/her.
As well, a colleague in another department had spent a few years on the street when overcome by a drug habit (he now drafts sensitive and useful cabinet briefing papers), and he told me that a greeting and a few words of kindness were among the factors which helped pull him through. A newly-minted and quite intense RC, he told me that he now arranges a mass on All Souls for his benefactors.
I find that a dollar or two-dollar coin easily comes to my hand, even if I am reluctant to shell out within a block or two of a liquor store. There but for fortune, comrades....
Posts: 4685 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
Where I live, a substantial number of beggars seem mentally ill. Whether this is the cause of, or the result of, their situation is hard to say. I'm pretty sure I'd be gibbering at the end of a week of living on the streets, whether or not I started out that way.
Often their stories don't hold up at all, because they're relating to beings I can't see, or to situations that seem extremely unlikely. And yes, they turn up on the same streetcorner next day asking for the same busfare.
My take is that begging is their work, in a way. They're generally too dysfunctional and/or filthy to get jobs, even if jobs were plentiful where I live (they're not). And it has to be pretty hard to stand out in all weathers begging, and taking the inevitable abuse that must get dished out at them.
So if I have money, I give it. If I don't, I say so, but spend a few minutes to talk and to suggest other sources of help, and sometimes offer to walk them to such a place.
--------------------
". . . people who take things for granted should be helped to a better understanding of democracy. . ." Rex Stout
Posts: 2644 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
I've also fallen for hard luck stories that proved to be clearly the work of con artists. Once a young man told me he needed bus fare to get home, and I gave him some loose change. I saw him the very next day, on the very same corner, doing the very same thing.
Any time someone comes up to me with a sob story about not having the train fare home, I offer to walk with them to the station and buy the ticket for them.
To date, exactly one of them has been genuine.
--------------------
Does the noise in my head bother you?
Posts: 24652 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
Allow me to recommend the Durrenmatt play, "An Angel Comes To Babylon" as a deliciously wicked meditation on these things. FWIW
--Tom Clune
[ 27. April 2010, 14:11: Message edited by: tclune ]
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 7833 | From: Ashburnham, MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
We had a talk at a recent neighbourhood watch meeting by someone who works with beggars - he said 95% of them are raising money for a drug habit.
So I give to the Simon Community which works to rehabilitate them.
I stopped giving indiscriminately many years ago when I lived in Leeds and passed St. George's Crypt about 8.50am - chucking out time when hordes of beggars were on the street.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 18630 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
As a Minister, I get asked quite frequently, and feel bad whatever way I react. My tendency is to:
1. Generally to give to someone who asks, the first time, but not in cash. (I think that Jesus would give them the benefit of the doubt). Fortunately we are near a Sainsbury's supermarket so I can go with the person to it. Ditto the bus station. Train station is a bit further but, again, I'd prefer to put the person on the platform myself than give them cash.
2. Not give to anyone who is obviously "under the inflience" of drink or drugs, full stop. Or to someone who is aggressive. (But now I'm running the risk of being patronising and/ or judgemental).
3. Beware the long complicated story with lots of documentary "proof" and tattered benefits statements, or the tale that "my bank card/passport is locked in my friend's house and I'll pay you back when he returns from Patagonia/Greenland/Norwich".
Actually once this tale-telling turned to one "beggar's" disadvantage: he was actually a crook and stole something from our church. However when he'd been scrounging off me he'd shown his papers which had the address of a cheap B&B. I was able to tell the police and it was true - they picked him up (he was well-known to them).
Michael Saward recalls a scrounger who had a good line in needing to go up to Liverpool to be with his wife who was having a hysterectomy - having been asked by the same chap in three different parishes he wondered how the man's wife was configured internally!
4. Many people who ask have many problems and live totally chaotic lives. I feel that I can do so little to alleviate their problems. My giving to them may alleviate them temporarily - or make them worse.
5. There are also issues of power here: I have the power to give or withhold. That makes me feel bad too, especially if I give grudgingly, feeling that I am being used (as I often do). But wasn't Jesus "used" too?
No easy answers, especially if one can't refer said person to a charity or if one knows they have "chosen" (for whatever reason, which may include mental breakdown or tragedy) to remain in this way of life rather than seeking longer-term help. And there, I'm being patronising and judgemental again ...
Our church used to give out vouchers for a meal (to a specified value) in a local cafe. Unfortunately some of these "customers" got aggressive and the cafe withdrew from the arrangement.
Posts: 3314 | From: East of Greenwich | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TraineeChristian:
There's a young man I often see in the street outside my house on Saturdays who my housemates and I have nicknamed 'Mr 90p'.
Cruel, perhaps, but human nature.
I can remember "Penny Auntie", an old lady who always used the line "Can you spare just one cent?"
And there was also "Miss Polly Polite", a young woman who always added "please" to her request.
And "Slipper Woman", who I never saw begging but would always sit somewhere muttering to herself and reading. She always wore bedroom slippers. One day I saw her without her glasses -- she had either lost them, broken them, or they were stolen -- and she was trying her best to squint at the book she was reading. I felt sorry for her then.
--------------------
I sometimes wonder whether the reason that puritanical religious types are so keen on marriage is their certain knowledge that it's the one way to make sure that people get the least amount of sex. – Louis de Berničres, A Partisan's Daughter
Posts: 7060 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We had a talk at a recent neighbourhood watch meeting by someone who works with beggars - he said 95% of them are raising money for a drug habit.
Is that 95% of the people he works with? 95% of the people begging on the street of the neighborhood where he works? 95% of the people begging on the street in your city?
Stories like these, without the details, are so often repeated they come to take on a patina of truth-applied-to-all.
95% of the people who beg on the streets of my city do not fit this profile.
sabine
--------------------
Find out who you are, and then do it on purpose. --Dolly Parton
Posts: 5403 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
How do you know that your city is different? Are you a full time worker in this field (as our informant is)?
Yes. Among other things I have done as a social worker for 40 years have been: providing services to the homeless, for keeping records on services provided, for writing grants to enable more services to be provided, for being in the streets to meet people where they spend their time, etc..
Even now, after retiring from refugee work (although still continuing ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ), I also volunteer occasionally with an interfaith program dealing with the homeless.
All of this experience has taught me that it is not helpful to make sweeping statements about where the money goes when it is handed over.
Unless you follow the person you've just given money to, you won't know for sure--and even then, you won't know for sure unless you verify that his/her pockets were completely empty when you gave the money and it is the money you gave being spent.
By the way (and not directed at leo), a gift is a gift. Gifts with strings are not gifts.
If you feel moved to give, do so. If you feel you must control the outcome of your gift, then please channel that need to organizations that can provide you with mission statements and yearly reports.
sabine
[ 27. April 2010, 21:09: Message edited by: sabine ]
--------------------
Find out who you are, and then do it on purpose. --Dolly Parton
Posts: 5403 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
|
Posted
I assume the people on busy street corners flagging down cars at stop lights are working their chosen job.
I interpret "give to those who ask" as not an obligation to send money to every charity that buys a list with my name and address, nor an obligation to give money to every child in the mob surrounding me in a third world country, but to be generous to those I personally meet, which includes street people I have a conversation with, the outer fringe of friends and neighbors when there's a need that I can help fill without too much stress on me, and of course personal friends and family.
OTOH, some people have a habit of asking others to provide for them. Just because I know them doesn't mean I always give just because they ask.
But sometimes, yes, go with your gut, a stranger can be in need. Strangers have helped me, I have helped strangers, it's part of life, and yes you'll guess wrong sometimes, that too is life.
Posts: 4255 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408
|
Posted
Food, a drink, an umbrella, whatever. Never money.
Posts: 1123 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
|
Posted
I walked past a beggar yesterday. He said, 'Any change mate?' and I replied, 'No, I still have a big house and a Mercedes.' (Okay, I'm kidding, I'm KIDDING. Jeez.)
--------------------
این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7027 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie Jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
I am under two rules, given me by clergy some time ago:
1. Never give money (this is more against aggressive beggars than anything else).
2. Never give out my address again from the safety perspective.
I do if I have the time, buy food and such (or give vouchers for St Wilfred's, provides food clothing and access to homeless services, when I have them which is perhaps the most effective)
Secondly I always acknowledge and tend to say at least "No sorry" and if they asked further "not allowed to".
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
my blog and thesis progress
Posts: 17653 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
What's interesting, in a painful sort of way, is this well-intentioned "never give money" rule that so many of us seem to abide by.
It seems predicated on the assumption (often correct) that any money given will be put to a Bad Use (i.e. maintaining alcohol or drug addiction). While of course money can be used by a beggar for self-destructive purposes, (something most of us would be loath to support), really what offering food or a bus ticket or what-have-you does is to remove, from the beggar's perspective, any choice in the matter. This, too, makes perfectly practical sense when we're (probably) dealing with someone who's got a lo-o-ng history of making very poor choices.
But if we really are dealing with a hard-case-of-bad-choices (as opposed, say, to having a mental illness, which nobody can help, and for which, in US, there may be no affordable treatment available), the only hope the poor bugger ever has of getting himself turned around is to make yet another choice, this time to take whatever step could lead toward his recovery.
So one of the things I struggle with is the morality of (my) removing the element of choice in the situation. I don't claim to know any answers, here. I'm as stymied in knowing the Right Thing To Do as anybody. It's something that nags at me, though.
--------------------
". . . people who take things for granted should be helped to a better understanding of democracy. . ." Rex Stout
Posts: 2644 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
I don't claim to know any answers, here. I'm as stymied in knowing the Right Thing To Do as anybody. It's something that nags at me, though.
I think you've hit the nail on the head, here. It is difficult to know the right thing to do and we can uncomfortably regret or debate our own choices. In fact, I'd say it's impossible to know exactly what the right decision is 100% of the time.
So in the end, one has to follow his/her heart.
That said, for all the people who say they won't give money, bear in mind that things can be sold. I have given out bus tickets only to see the person selling the same bus ticket a few minutes later. Do I regret giving the bus ticket? No. I gave what I thought was best at the time. The gift is no longer mine to oversee.
What intrigues me is the need to control the outcome of gifts. This is especially interesting when we consider how many people who have money also make use of gifts....let's say a Christmas gift from a relative or playing (sometimes winning) the lottery. Not money we have earned.
Wouldn't it be a surprise (perhaps an annoyance) if we won the lottery only to be given MacDonald's gift cards instead just to make sure we didn't spend the money on something the lottery didn't approve of. Wouldn't be annoying if we tried to use a Christmas gift of cash for a night out only to be told by the giver that we would have to return the money unless we spent it on practical items from a giver-approved list of items?
How many of us have had to ask a friend to put money in a parking meter because we had no change or ask a neighbor for a couple of eggs to finish baking a cake? How would we respond if our request was met with a set of conditions?
Of course begging is not the same as winning the lottery or spending Auntie's Christmas gift on a transitory pleasure (maybe involving drink) or a small request for change that we might or might not not pay back.
But there seems to be a bit of status snobbery about the idea that those with money know better about appropriate spending than those without and have set themselves up to make sure their ideas are enacted after the so-called gift has been given.
I think we fool ourselves if we believe that we have never asked and then spent the gift in a way that was not totally practical.
There is no way to respond to a begger without implied judgment--even if one gives all the time and happily.
The task is, IMO, deciding what kind of judgment does a person want to make. Once we can admit that we are making a judgment, we can find the action to take and hopefully live with the reflection that action has on us.
sabine
[ 28. April 2010, 13:45: Message edited by: sabine ]
--------------------
Find out who you are, and then do it on purpose. --Dolly Parton
Posts: 5403 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Daffy Duck
Shipmate
# 13488
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TraineeChristian:
Whenever I see a person begging I never know whether I should give them money. Some people say you shouldn't (as they assume they'd spend it on drugs/alcohol/whatever got them in that situation in the first place) yet I always wonder if that's making a big assumption about that person, and I feel guilty if I walk past. What is the best thing to do?
I give what I have to give, according to need, be it money, time, a meal, a bed, yes I sometimes bring people home, (the last one stayed six weeks, and I learnt a lot that more than repaid the cost). If I have not got what is needed I try to find ways to meet that need, even selling things to raise a bit of extra cash. I have more than some people, and less than others, and have myself been in the situation of virtually begging for help. Once you have been there, you stop judging others you find on life's road.
--------------------
Arohanui
Jayne( in aroha, hope and Faith ) nz
mailto:enyaj@xtra.co.nz
Posts: 259 | From: Gore, NZ | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I walked past a beggar yesterday. He said, 'Any change mate?' and I replied, 'No, I still have a big house and a Mercedes.' (Okay, I'm kidding, I'm KIDDING. Jeez.)
Is it a W.C. Fields movie that has the following exchange:
[Beggar] I haven't eaten in three days.
[Fields] Well, you're not missing anything. Food still tastes the same.
--------------------
I sometimes wonder whether the reason that puritanical religious types are so keen on marriage is their certain knowledge that it's the one way to make sure that people get the least amount of sex. – Louis de Berničres, A Partisan's Daughter
Posts: 7060 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
But there seems to be a bit of status snobbery about the idea that those with money know better about appropriate spending than those without and have set themselves up to make sure their ideas are enacted after the so-called gift has been given.
In my opinion, it is not a gift when it is the result of begging, and so, conditions attached are not necessarily out of line. It is certainly not like a Christmas gift, the loan of a quarter for the meter, or winning the lottery. It is more like a grant - the imposition of conditions which must be adhered to is acceptable.
That being said, the cheerful giver should be praised, not criticized, for freely giving when asked.
--------------------
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7436 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
I, too, struggle with the ethics of "conditional giving". (Perhaps as a result of growing up with a grandmother who's Christmas & birthday gifts ALWAYS came with "strings" and conditions...)
Richard Foster has an interesting discussion of the pros/cons of this in the chapter on "money" in his book The Challenge of the Disciplined Life. Very thoughtful discussion. What I took away from it is that the bulk of our giving needs to be thoughtful, reasonable, and well-focused to provide the greatest benefit possible (a good argument for giving to credible, known organizations on a regular basis). But that we also need to have some $$ that we give "with no strings". Not so much for the beggar's benefit, but for our own. Giving is a spiritual discipline, and as such shapes our heart just as much as it does/doesn't shape the beggar's belly. Foster argues powerfully that we need to regularly practice giving without controlling the outcome, without being "in charge", in order to experience the transformative effect of the discipline.
Having also served for awhile on the pastoral staff of a church rife with manipulative "designated giving" that did all sorts of end-runs around the normal, prayerful budgetting process, I can see the wisdom there. I
--------------------
“Be not afraid does not mean we cannot have fear… the words say we do not need to be the fear we have… We have places of fear inside of us, but we have other places—with names like trust & hope & faith” -P. Palmer
Posts: 5683 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
It appears we have not one dilemma, but several.
1. Should anyone ever give anything to a beggar?
(Define beggar: does it include the whiny, noisy kid of one's loins who is yelping for XYZ that's no good for him at the checkout lane?)
2. Should, or can, gifts ever be conditional?
3. Should the givers of gifts (or grants, if that's your take) prevent (or at least attempt to prevent) recipients from exercising choice or control over (A) what the G/G is, or (B) how the G/G is used? (I think that's a slightly different issue from setting conditions, but if I'm wrong, and it must be admitted that back in 2003 I once was , I imagine someone will happily set me straight.)
--------------------
". . . people who take things for granted should be helped to a better understanding of democracy. . ." Rex Stout
Posts: 2644 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
... gifts (or grants, if that's your take) ...
In my mind, these two terms are mutually exclusive. A gift is unconditional, whereas a grant (think government grant for a student to go to school) is conditional. Perhaps my definitions are wrong, but those are the concepts I was trying to convey.
--------------------
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7436 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fuzzipeg
Shipmate
# 10107
|
Posted
I agree with you, Sharkshooter. I do give money sometimes and try and keep R2 coins around to do it. I also unload plastic bags of small change.
I will also give things like the rest of the pizza I've been given to take home. Anything helps. Drink doesn't worry me...it's often the only pleasure some of these people have and it's their choice.
--------------------
http://quodsemper.blogspot.com
Posts: 902 | From: Johannesburg, South Africa | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
TraineeChristian
Shipmate
# 12972
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
Wouldn't it be a surprise (perhaps an annoyance) if we won the lottery only to be given MacDonald's gift cards instead just to make sure we didn't spend the money on something the lottery didn't approve of. Wouldn't be annoying if we tried to use a Christmas gift of cash for a night out only to be told by the giver that we would have to return the money unless we spent it on practical items from a giver-approved list of items?
How many of us have had to ask a friend to put money in a parking meter because we had no change or ask a neighbor for a couple of eggs to finish baking a cake? How would we respond if our request was met with a set of conditions?
Of course begging is not the same as winning the lottery or spending Auntie's Christmas gift on a transitory pleasure (maybe involving drink) or a small request for change that we might or might not not pay back.
But there seems to be a bit of status snobbery about the idea that those with money know better about appropriate spending than those without and have set themselves up to make sure their ideas are enacted after the so-called gift has been given.
I get your point, but I'm not sure it's quite the same thing. It's not just a matter of whether I approve of how the money will be spent, it's more whether it is ultimately destructive to the person. If I give money to a person with a drug addiction (who then spends it on drugs), am I essentially enabling this person to do themselves more harm?
That's often why I come away with an uneasy feeling even when I have given money.
[edit: them=then]
[ 28. April 2010, 21:41: Message edited by: TraineeChristian ]
Posts: 274 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
|
Posted
I buy a "Big Issue" once a week from a specific person I go past on my early morning way to work, near the tube. He's polite and friendly, and has, as some others do, a very nice dog whom I wish "Good Morning" to always. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) So this man shouldn't get called a "beggar" as he's "selling".
I don't give to all the beggars in our area - most of them women and children, Romanians made to do that IMO by their men. Most of them have been arrested and not allowed to be in our area, but then others are sent here. This discussion always comes up in our local Police Community when we meet.
But I also notice some elderly women, Muslim black clothing, sitting on the pavements holding their hands for 'gifts" I feel guilty that I don't give them money etc, but I also think I'm being sensible.
OTOH, I give to Charities to help needers and I make sure it's charities I trust.
--------------------
London Cornerstone
Flickr fotos
Posts: 9449 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
trainee, I think what Sabine and others are getting at is that you are taking on too much responsibility. You are not responsible, nor can you ever know or control, the free choices of other free creatures. As others have noted, if s/he chooses to spend it on drugs/alcohol, s/he can do an end run around your attempts to control the gift (e.g. selling the gift card/bus ticket). And the reasons behind that choice may be more complicated or nuanced than we naively assume.
The point I think they're trying to make is that Jesus calls us to give. That's our responsibility: to be people who are generous, who give to others in need. With Foster, I believe that that command is as much for our spiritual benefit as it is for the physical benefit of the recipient. Remembering that changes the equation considerably. We need the beggars as much as they need us-- maybe more.
Jesus never made us responsible for the decisions made by other people. We can only be responsible for our choices.
--------------------
“Be not afraid does not mean we cannot have fear… the words say we do not need to be the fear we have… We have places of fear inside of us, but we have other places—with names like trust & hope & faith” -P. Palmer
Posts: 5683 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TraineeChristian:
I get your point, but I'm not sure it's quite the same thing. It's not just a matter of whether I approve of how the money will be spent, it's more whether it is ultimately destructive to the person. If I give money to a person with a drug addiction (who then spends it on drugs), am I essentially enabling this person to do themselves more harm?
That's often why I come away with an uneasy feeling even when I have given money.
This is a quandry many of us have, including myself, and while we want to do the right thing, it's awfully hard to know what it is.
Just as it is almost impossible to know for sure that the person extending his hand to us at one moment in time is, in fact, drug addicted.
I suspect it might seem that I am trying to make a case for giving money, period. I am not. That's for individuals to decide.
But I find it difficult to hear rationalizations that can't be proven, or broadbrush stereotypes, or statistical claims that would rely on data that is very hard to gather. [not that I am accusing TrainieChristian of these things, esp. since TC has written about ambivalent feelings on the subject--but they do tend to be the rationalizations most often brought forth.]
Give if your gut instinct says give; don't if it says don't. And if you fall in the middle, like many of us do, try not to be too hard on yourself or on the person asking.
Clifdweller made some good points a few posts back.
sabine
--------------------
Find out who you are, and then do it on purpose. --Dolly Parton
Posts: 5403 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
TraineeChristian
Shipmate
# 12972
|
Posted
Yeah I think you're right that I'm taking on two much responsibilty, Cliffdweller.
And yes Sabine, I guess it does come down to gut instinct. I think the uneasiness isn't going to go away, but is something I'll have to get used to!
Posts: 274 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
(thinking out loud here) I wonder if the "uneasiness" is simply a form of empathy for the brokenness of the world/situation. There is something wrong with a world where parents of toddlers need to beg for money. There is something wrong with a world where someone suffering from mental illness have to resort to alcohol to self-medicate because proper care is not available to them. All the factors that go into the situation facing you when a beggar asks for a handout represent a long series of tragic broken situations: a long history you can never know, and have very limited ability to affect.
So perhaps the "uneasiness" is a call to empathetic, intercessory prayer. Perhaps, along with our gift (whether in cold hard cash or "in kind") we are called to pray for God's gracious intercession into the long history of events, unknown to us, that have brought this particular person to this particular place at this particular time. Perhaps it is a recognition of our own inadequacy, our inability to heal all the wounds that are presenting themselves here. In that, perhaps it reminds us that God is here. As E. Peterson reminds us, God was on the scene before we arrived, and will continue to be on the scene after we leave. Perhaps the uneasiness can remind us of that, giving us a sense of humility (recognizing we are but bit players in this drama, not the Great Savior of the Poor), and remind us to pray.
Just thinkin'...
--------------------
“Be not afraid does not mean we cannot have fear… the words say we do not need to be the fear we have… We have places of fear inside of us, but we have other places—with names like trust & hope & faith” -P. Palmer
Posts: 5683 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Benny Diction 2
Shipmate
# 14159
|
Posted
I don't give to beggars.
Occasionally (as a member of clergy) I've had someone call at the house wanting "some spare change for a cup of tea." (Why can't they just be honest and say the spare change will buy some cider or drugs!??)
I never give money but give some food. And also where I live we have a Foodbank that gives people a weeks worth of tinned / packet food. And I give out Foodbank vouchers.
I find the Foodbank vouchers great. They aren't money and whilst in theory they could be sold one and probably have some sort of street value, the client's name is printed on them by me. So they are safe.
They assuage that sense of guilt by not giving any money.
--------------------
Benny Diction
"The Labour party has never been a socialist party, although there have always been socialists in it - a bit like Christians in the Church of England." Tony Benn
Posts: 859 | From: Home of the magic roundabout | Registered: Oct 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
|
Posted
cliffdweller--I like the way you are just thinkin'
sabine
--------------------
Find out who you are, and then do it on purpose. --Dolly Parton
Posts: 5403 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
Me too. It reflects some words of William Stringfellow:
quote:
What sophisticates the suffering of the poor is the lucidity, the straightforwardness with which it bespeaks the power and presence of death among men in the world... And from this power of death no man may deliver his brother, nor may a man deliver himself.
--------------------
We are part of the earth and it is part of us... What befalls the earth befalls all the sons of the earth --Chief Seattle
Posts: 7708 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Auntie Doris
Screen Goddess
# 9433
|
Posted
This is a tricky one for me as I have worked in a substance misuse service. Inevitably this means that in my day-to-day life I don't give to people on the streets as I tend to know them. This is going to become even more obvious when I start work in the homelessness drug team.
As with many other people I choose not to give money, even when I don't know the people, but will give sandwiches, coffee etc. Having said that, there are times that I will give nothing, but will always try to look the person in the eyes, smile and treat them with some degree of dignity.
Whether or not 'beggars' choose to buy drink or drugs with the money they earn from their habit is their choice. However, from the work I do with them I know it can be a very lucrative source of cash. I just choose not to pay into the cycle.
Auntie Doris x
--------------------
"And you don't get to pronounce that I am not a Christian. Nope. Not in your remit nor power." - iGeek in response to a gay-hater :)
The life and times of a Guernsey cow
Posts: 5966 | From: The Rock at the Centre of the Universe | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
|
Posted
It doesn't have to be a complicated problem. If giving makes you feel good, give. If giving makes you feel guilty, stop giving or go to confession, or both.
I have watched a local beggar "work". It's a long, cold day sometimes. But I've seen his regular "customers", beautiful, long-legged, young, put a few pence in his hand - in his hand, mind, not his hat - and smile, and watched him smile back. And a tinge of envy creeps in...
--------------------
But at my back I always hear//Time's winged chariot hurrying near (Andrew Marvell)
Posts: 7077 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Defrocked
# 473
|
Posted
I spotted a rather well-dressed woman in a rather nice area of London spending time talking to a beggar as if he were a real person, not just someone cluttering up the streets. She was also offering him a suggestion as to where he could get help (London churches are particularly good at this). I found the scenario most heartening - perhaps more of this kind of care, rather than slinging them money and walking quickly on, would be the best way forward?
--------------------
"Music produces a kind of pleasure which human nature cannot do without." - Confucius
Posts: 32980 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
A friend told me a lovely story of a day he was having coffee with a friend at the local Starbucks on an atypically cold and rainy day here in L.A. They were approached by a homeless beggar, but actually honestly had no cash remaining, which my friend explained. But the friend-of-my-friend looked down at the beggar's feet, noticed they were bare, quite wet, with numerous cuts and bruises that had become infected from God-knows-what he'd been stepping in/on. The friend-of-my-friend simply said, "looks like you could use some new shoes. Are you about a size 10?" He then knelt down at the feet of the beggar and removed his own shoes and socks. Using some paper napkins, he carefully washed as much of the grime as he could from the beggar's feet, then put his own shoes and socks on him.
They finished their coffee, and the friend-of-my-friend left. My friend said that as the f-o-m-f walked across the slick, wet parking lot thru the pounding rain in his now-bare feet, every eye in the place followed him.
God, I love that story. Wish I could say I lived it.
--------------------
“Be not afraid does not mean we cannot have fear… the words say we do not need to be the fear we have… We have places of fear inside of us, but we have other places—with names like trust & hope & faith” -P. Palmer
Posts: 5683 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
