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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Curacy support
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
It's a lot about money, and sometimes it's about accommodation - many churches don't have a house to offer a full-time curate. Or, as in our parish, they have a house but it's being lived in by someone else who's paying rent.
I am given to believe I should be hearing about my curacy within the next week. Non-negotiable, I expect. Hopefully I won't want or need to negotiate...
[ 10. November 2011, 19:28: Message edited by: Panda ]
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
As a mere Methodist this seems to me to be a crazy system.
Traumatic for all concerned.
My thoughts and prayers are with all.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Accommodation is about money. The renting out of empty parsonages is about money.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Chelley
Ship's Old Boot
# 11322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
PS I would be suspicious of anyone who thought the principal division within the clergy was between the workaholic and the bone idle. It isn't.
I don't think there was an implication that it was a principal division or that everyone falls into one or the other category, it was just an observation he'd made having encountered a lot of clergy. It is a rather tongue in cheek suggestion, but perhaps finding out how likely a training incumbent is to guard a day off, and likewise encourage the curate to do the same might be a more useful suggestion. I've met clergy all along the spectrum and working with someone who can never say "no" or with someone who spends more time out of the parish than in it, might not be the most helpful beginnings for ministry?
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"I love old things, they make me feel sad."
"What's good about sad?"
"It's happy for deep people!"
Sally Sparrow to Kathy - Doctor Who
Posts: 2870 | From: Wonderland, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Jante
Shipmate
# 9163
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Posted
Its been awhile since anyone posted- I wonder if all those seeking curacy for 2012 are now sorted?
I am pleased to announce that I am to serve my curacy in the Wirksworth Team Ministry. I'm thrilled and really looking forward to returning to Derbyshire. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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My blog http://vicarfactorycalling.blogspot.com/
Posts: 535 | From: deepest derbyshire | Registered: Mar 2005
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
We've taken on extra churches in our team, and had our curate taken away. Seems like a double whammy to me.
At least reading this thread I know that some places still have them.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Codepoet
Best Bear On Board
# 5964
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Posted
Chorister,
Reading your comments on your own situation, I feel moved to make a few comments about how the system works, and how it needs to be viewed, by incumbent, curate and importantly by the parish.
The key thing to recognise is that a curacy is a training post. It is limited in its duration (4 years max) and its purpose is to prepare the curate for their next post. The post does not exist on account of the needs of the parish. Similarly the post does not automatically continue with a new curate after 4 years. The thing that decides if a parish gets a curate or not is whether the incumbant would be a good trainer for a particular curate. Obviously factors such as a diverse context can improve the training oppertunites the a post will offer, but it is the incumbant that is the key.
Housing is also an issue, but at the end of the day houses can get let/sold and can be rented/bought in order to ensure that housing is available in the place where it is needed. It is nice if an available house can be used, but that should not be the deciding factor.
It should also be said that curates are not there to "do work". Training the curate will take up the vicar's time too, so it should not be assumed that there will be dramtically more stuff getting done with a curate around (although the curate should become more productive as time goes on). I think that I good question to ask when visiting a potential curacy parish is "do you need some help / an extra pair of hands" If the answer is "yes" then beware - a curacy where the curate is viewed as coming to shoulder the burden is perhaps not going to be the best training experience.
Finally it is worth pointing out that dioceses import and export because the number of ordinands they produce does not match the posts available in that diocese. The number of posts available is (as I understand it) set nationally by a system called "the Shefield formula" that determines how many clergy each diocese should have to ensure that they are not taking on more than their fair share of those nationally available. This is not to do with money, it is about ensuring that there are vicars in the North as well as the South (apparently there is a general tendency for vicars to want to move south, and exporting dioceses tend to be more in the south than the north). Having said all this, some diocese are naughty and if they have got the money will take on more clergy than their fair share (I think Chichester is an example I have heard in conversation). The main reason that some dioceses are always exporting is that demographically they have a larger number of people that typically put themselves forward for training. London and Oxford are the two biggest exporters - I would be interested to hear various theories as to why this is.
I am not wanting to have a pop a Chorister, but when I hear parishoners getting protective about their parish's curacy post, I feel for the curate whose parishoners view her as a symbol of the status of the parish.
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It's more important to be kind than to be right.
Posts: 1156 | From: Southampton | Registered: May 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
That is a very interesting explanation, thank you Codepoet, and mentions several points I have not heard explained before. As we have been a training parish since time immemorial, and have always had a curate (being a town parish with several smaller village churches joined in, and only one incumbent) I guess, yes, most of us are expecting the situation to continue.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
I'm going to be a curate in a parish that has always had one. It has already been flagged up as an issue and I'm told the previous curate did make it clear that she was in training and not an extra pair of hands but I'm sure some will have forgoten it in the period between her going and my arriving.
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
That's interesting too, Poppy: I hope you don't mind me asking those training to be curates whether they therefore perceive the situation to have changed over the last few years? I ask because in the history of curates at churches I've been to is that they very much have jumped in, got stuck in, got their hands dirty and done almost as much as the incumbent in all areas of parish ministry, almost from the word go. And as a trainee teacher, many years ago, my experience during teaching practice was the same. But, as a result of posts on this thread, I am now wondering - what is the current balance / what balance is now seen as good practice between learning-by-doing and learning-by-studying?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jante
Shipmate
# 9163
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Posted
As far as I'm conmcerned I will jump in and do what ever is expected of me. However my Training Vicar has already told me not to fill my diary up but to allow space to reflect and study as well. But it is still the case that curacy is a learning time, we don;t come fully trained and with great tracts of experience and so have to be allowed the time to develop.
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My blog http://vicarfactorycalling.blogspot.com/
Posts: 535 | From: deepest derbyshire | Registered: Mar 2005
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Codepoet
Best Bear On Board
# 5964
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Posted
I think that the appropriate response to the start of a curacy it to jump in and get busy. Indeed it is very hard not to do so, as it is what you see your whole life and calling as having being moving you towards doing. Normally the day after ordination a new curate is busting at the seams to get stuck in. Certainly my own experience is that I have loads to do, and I rellish doing it.
However, what has changed recently is the way in which curacies are assessed. In the old days at the end of the curacy the training incumbant would give a wink and a nod to the bishop to say "he's a good'un" and the bishop would find you a new post. Now the curacy has to be backed up by a paper trail that shows you reflecting on your experiences of learning throughout the curacy, as measured against a national set of criteria. (Last week as it happens I engaged with this document for the first time in 18 monthes, and it took me over an hour to read the whole thing!)
So, while it is one thing for the vicar who is responsible for training, and has a hand in overseeing the paper trail throwing work at the curate so he can get stuck it, it is something entirely different for the parishoners to have expectations for how much extra work will get done, when they are not privy to the learning experience going on behind the scenes.
[ 09. January 2012, 13:23: Message edited by: Codepoet ]
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It's more important to be kind than to be right.
Posts: 1156 | From: Southampton | Registered: May 2004
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
Indeed, indeed. Our bishop has made it clear (in the face of some disgruntlement, I think) that curates are not to be viewed as an extra pair of hands, meaning, they will not be sent to a parish that needs help, but rather to an incumbent who can be relied upon to train them. Often such an incumbent is running a busy parish, so the curate is well appreciated.
I now know where my curacy will be, and it happens to be where I'm already on placement, so I can just leave my cassock on the hook! It's not quite what I thought it would be so there was a bit of disappointment at first, but I'm getting my head around it. It'll be nice that I'm not starting from scratch, in a sense.
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
Wot Codepoet said!!!!
These days there is learning by studying and learning by doing but it is followed by proving that learning has occured. This is done by reflecting on the learning and commenting on the sources that you have used and this all takes time. A friend who qualified as a teacher on the graduate training programme had the same portfolio based learning system so I think it must be fairly standard in adult learning.
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Those are all very helpful comments, thank you.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bagpuss
Magical saggy cloth cat
# 2925
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Posted
Well, things are drawing nearer.
Got my ordination retreat programme today. Also got my first baptism and wedding booked!
Baptism shortly after ordination - wedding in 12 months just after priesting - for a friend - have warned her she will be my guinea pig!
Posts: 473 | Registered: Jun 2002
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Jante
Shipmate
# 9163
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Posted
Hi Bagpuss,
Yes it is definitely feeling close! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I have my first sermon and assembly in the diary and a number of weddings to accompany the Training Incumbent to. Also got the IME programme until Christmas, PCC dates etc so my diary is already filling up. I'm excited and nervous and thrilled in equal measures.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) For you and all others approaching ordination
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My blog http://vicarfactorycalling.blogspot.com/
Posts: 535 | From: deepest derbyshire | Registered: Mar 2005
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
It really is amazing to watch shipmates go from discernment to ordination! And a bit weird to look back on having done the same myself...
Prayers for you both, Bagpuss and Jante. Will you be ordained at Petertide?
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
I'm finishing my last two essays EVER, as I just put on the 'Send me' thread, but I guess I belong here more now - changes, changes everywhere!
I've ordered some clericals, though they haven't arrived yet. I was annoyed to lose a preaching scarf on ebay, so I still have to get that!
My training incumbent has asked me what I would like (something I can use, he suggests) as an ordination gift from my new parish. I think I'm all right for stoles, so I'm thinking. Any suggestions?
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
They could contribute to a home communion set. That's something you'll use (I assume) within the parish itself. Of if it's part of your churchmanship, and oil stock?
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
I've finished all my portfolios and have a moving date into the new house. It feels like only 5 minutes ago that I went to the BAP. Now I'm trying to sort out 20+ years of stuff that 'might be useful one day' in the loft so that we can get into a smaller house and be ready to move again at the end of the curacy. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Bagpuss
Magical saggy cloth cat
# 2925
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Posted
I've got a cloak as a present - nice wool one for wet, windy funerals and processions.
Likewise, have IME dates.
Also on last 2 essays - but not forever - in my dreams! More to come with IME!
And yep, I am a Petertide ordination.
Posts: 473 | Registered: Jun 2002
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