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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Pray for Muamba
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
One pundit (I can’t remember who this was) told us to pray for him, ‘whatever your religious beliefs’. I kid you not.
I heard someone, Peter Reid I think it was, say something very much like this during ITV's coverage of the Liverpool-Stoke game on Sunday. And I'm with you on this point, Yorick, it stuck in my throat too. Sympathy and stuff like 'Our hearts go out to Muamba and his loved ones' is fine with me but 'pray for him, whatever your religious beliefs' is too much. It feels patronising and dismissive of others' beliefs, to me.
Trouble is, I think the people who say this sort of thing would never in a million years understand WHY it sounds patronizing and dismissive. They consider all beliefs more or less interchangeable, and they assume that every right-thinking person out there does, too, because It's Obviously Right, Isn't It? (Except a few fanatics in far away lands who haven't been enlightened yet)
And if you call them on that assumption, they get hurt feelings, because they meant no offense and can't understand why any was taken.
I don't think there's much to be done about that. Grit your teeth and smile. They just.don't.get.it., bless their cotton socks.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I am so sorry for disagreeing with you, Yorick. I am so very, very ashamed of myself.
No one should have to endure the existence of people with different beliefs. I actually admire you for that. You have to wake up every day to a world where people have different beliefs from you, but somehow you keep doing it. You still go on living. So many are crushed by that sort of adversity, Yorick, but you triumph over it. You're beautiful.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Why, his family are Christian, presumably prayers to the Jewish or Islamic interpretation of the same God ought not to be futile. if you believe in the utility of prayer in the first place.
Yeah, I don't know. I'd have been totally fine with 'Pray for Fabrice, if praying's your thing' but I don't like it when people presume to tell everyone what to do! Like Lamb Chopped said, it seems to ignore the fact that different people have a wide range of dearly-held beliefs about the supernatural.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Someone suggested there is serious discussion to be had here.
Maybe. I am probably not the one to do it, but I will give it a shot.
The everybody pray for . . . reaction is akin to the everybody gets all sentimental at the death of a celebrity reaction. We tend to concern ourselves with the lives of celebrities on a highly personal level for reasons that continue to befuddle me.
So, praying for someone who needs help (prayer, or medical intervention, or whatever) is an opportunity to involve ourselves more deeply with someone who is normally outside of our everyday experience and grasp.
What does the prayer do for the people praying? It makes them feel better, as has been observed before on this thread. Not a terrible thing.
What does the prayer do for the celebrity? How simple is your faith, or lack thereof?
I do not think that prayer by a stranger for the benefit of a celebrity causes God to say "Aha. I was going to let _______ suffer and die, but now I will save him because of all the prayers." Such a scenario sounds pretty silly. It is also inconsistent to have an omniscient and all caring god who would wait for such a prompting to take action.
Do I believe doctors need the guiding hand of God to help them? If the reference is to guiding their hands in supplying medical help the answer is no. Medical training and technology are the important factors.
Do I believe that celebrity _____ might be helped mentally in ways that give them the strength of will and perseverance to recover? It is possible.
Does that mean the Hand of God was at work? That is a more complicated question. God is not a necessary part of the equation mentioned above. The whole feel better, have the will to recover scenario does not require divine intervention.
Does God want us to want to help others? Certainly a lot of religious text and thought suggests so. Is that the sole cause of any sort of charitable instinct? Probably not. I am in a discussion group with a few atheists who are quite adamant on that issue.
So, what have we learned? Faith is hard to prove empirically. There may be physical explanations for everything.
Maybe that is why it is called faith.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Given that most people who hear the story can either pray or do absolutely nothing, what's so awful about them praying?
That doesn't negate the idea that those in a position to do something else - namely, the small number of people employed in the relevant hospital - should do something more than pray.
At worst, prayer is a placebo.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Tortuf said quote:
So, what have we learned? Faith is hard to prove empirically. There may be physical explanations for everything.
Maybe that is why it is called faith.
That's very weak. It would be better to say that there are indeed physical explanations for everything (everything physical, obviously, not other stuff like geometry or music).
Faith is impossible to prove empirically. It's called faith not because it's some nebulous thing round the edges of the empirical world, like the Higgs Boson is (this week, at least). It's faith because it's an attitude towards all the indisputable physical stuff (and maths and music and politics and all the non-physical stuff).
Prayer doesn't work. It has no utility. That's not why we do it. We do it to hold on to our useless caring and minding and hoping, because they are the only thing that make the world's shit look properly shitty. And that's important.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Why, his family are Christian, presumably prayers to the Jewish or Islamic interpretation of the same God ought not to be futile. if you believe in the utility of prayer in the first place.
Yeah, I don't know. I'd have been totally fine with 'Pray for Fabrice, if praying's your thing' but I don't like it when people presume to tell everyone what to do! Like Lamb Chopped said, it seems to ignore the fact that different people have a wide range of dearly-held beliefs about the supernatural.
well, okay, if you really want to be literal and take it as some sort of command: "pray! NOW! Do it, my minions!"
but that's not exactly what's going on. They're saying, "hey, our boy's in trouble, but unless you're a bomber surgeon with a lot of free time, all you can do is pray so do that rather than fuss and whine and stuff."
You know, when Bobby tells me "Don't worry, about a thing..." my reaction isn't, "Piss off! I'll worry if I want to and you aren't the boss of me; you or your little birds!" no... I take it as a form of advice.
lighten the fuck up you literalistic, compassionless weirdos. But if you insist on taking everything as a direct command, fine.
Fuck the hell off. NOW! do it, my minions!
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
you really really really want every faithful person to really be someone who believes in weirdo magic and stuff.
Who can blame him? It would be more fun if we did.
'struth.
I'm still waiting for my Hogwarts letter. my kids say I'm too old but I don't believe them.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
That's very weak.
Actually, I had to close my post sooner than I wanted. I had intended to amend it with a later post.
Now, I am going to hang on to every golden word.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
you really really really want every faithful person to really be someone who believes in weirdo magic and stuff.
Who can blame him? It would be more fun if we did.
'struth.
I'm still waiting for my Hogwarts letter. my kids say I'm too old but I don't believe them.
Quite.
I have looked at all the possible alternatives and decided believing in weirdo magic and stuff is definitely better for ones health, peace of mind and general amusement.
Nihilism is such a drag.
It makes Jack such a dull boy.
My front left hand bumper sticker reads:
God is dead ~ Nietzsche
My rear bumper sticker reads:
Nietzsche is dead ~ God
The sticker on the side reads:
People of faith have more fun
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
The whole ‘Pray for Muamba’ thing annoys me for several reasons.
1. Intercessory prayer does not work. You might as well say ‘Fart for Muamba’ for all the good it will do for Muamba. He needs good human beings who have worked jolly hard to learn stuff in order to save his life. Suggesting God might intervene above their heads and save him is a slur against this genuinely admirable and valuable human endeavour. Continuing to cling on to such superstitious comfort-blanket nuzzling is arguably retardant of real progress. We should all be thinking about ways to cure cancer, not pathetically supplicating a non-existent god that evidently fails to give a shit.
2. It’s hypocritically self-orientated. When you pray for Muamba, you are in fact trying to find a way to deal with your emotional reaction to his heart attack- that’s provoked by your own fear of your own death. Fine, you pathetically hysterical little sheeple. Do whatever you need to do to get your inadequate little excitable minds over it, but fuck off with the imploring me to indulge your ignoble way of handling your fear of death, thanks. Oh, and kindly fuck off with the self-righteous bollocks about compassion. You don’t own the monopoly, just because you lack the dignity to take command of your hysterical need to share it with all the other inadequate sheeple.
3. By suggesting/imploring/commanding that I should pray for Muamba whatever my religious beliefs, you disrespect my beliefs about prayer. By suggesting I should pray in order to show my support for Muamba’s family, you are effectively insinuating that by not doing so I shall be failing to demonstrate my care and solidarity for the unfortunate fellow. Fuck off, thanks.
4. By praying for Muamba, you’re making a travesty of your not praying for other unfortunate people. But you don’t really care about them, do you? You aren’t so shocked by that, but seeing a footballer collapse on a pitch in the middle of a match is really upsetting, isn’t it? The fact that people are so disproportionately moved by this footballer’s illness to call for and indulge in mass prayer is a disgusting indictment of the way we selectively permit, yes permit, human suffering to move us.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Sympathy and stuff like 'Our hearts go out to Muamba and his loved ones' is fine with me but 'pray for him, whatever your religious beliefs' is too much. It feels patronising and dismissive of others' beliefs, to me.
Funny, it strikes me exactly the opposite way - inclusive rather than dismissive.
I see it more as him saying "if everyone prays then the True God (or Gods) is bound to hear at least some of those prayers".
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
The whole ‘Pray for Muamba’ thing annoys me for several reasons.
I believe you missed off reason (5), which is of course the way things like this show that there's still a stupidly large religious tendency within society, even if it's buried quite deeply sometimes, and therefore that your dream of an atheist Britain has minimal likelihood of coming true within the lifetime even of your grandkids.
That's the real reason why it's pissed you off so much, isn't it?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
He needs good human beings who have worked jolly hard to learn stuff in order to save his life. Suggesting God might intervene above their heads and save him is a slur against this genuinely admirable and valuable human endeavour. Continuing to cling on to such superstitious comfort-blanket nuzzling is arguably retardant of real progress.
mm-hmm. because it's totally kept us from making any quantifiable progress these last 2,000 years.
it's not all or nothing. I can still pray and seek out a doctor when I need one and there is just no conflict there.
for us reasoned, gray-area people anyway. obviously you all-or-nothing fundamentalists are different.
PS - when my kid falls and gets hurt, I'm still going to kiss the boo-boo and make it better, despite the fact that kisses have been scientifically proven to do jack shit. That's hardly the point, is it? comfort-blanket nuzzling has value. I'm going to keep using it. and when life fucks me over, I expect you, as my friend, to tell me it's all going to be okay - even if you have no idea if it will. Because you're a kind, compassionate guy who loves me.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
The whole ‘Pray for Muamba’ thing annoys me for several reasons.
1. Intercessory prayer does not work. You might as well say ‘Fart for Muamba’ for all the good it will do for Muamba. He needs good human beings who have worked jolly hard to learn stuff in order to save his life. Suggesting God might intervene above their heads and save him is a slur against this genuinely admirable and valuable human endeavour. Continuing to cling on to such superstitious comfort-blanket nuzzling is arguably retardant of real progress. We should all be thinking about ways to cure cancer, not pathetically supplicating a non-existent god that evidently fails to give a shit.
Of course it doesn't work. You have to be a lazy atheist to even think that it's supposed to. Or one of those Christians who say that of course prayer doesn't work in a coin in the slot way, oh no, no, no, how silly that would be - but maybe, in a the teeniest and weeniest sort of unexpected dear little way, when we're not looking, perhaps it just about, unprovably of course, does sort of, slightly.
No it doesn't. Now find a more grown-up understanding of the concept of prayer.
quote:
2. It’s hypocritically self-orientated. When you pray for Muamba, you are in fact trying to find a way to deal with your emotional reaction to his heart attack- that’s provoked by your own fear of your own death. Fine, you pathetically hysterical little sheeple. Do whatever you need to do to get your inadequate little excitable minds over it, but fuck off with the imploring me to indulge your ignoble way of handling your fear of death, thanks. Oh, and kindly fuck off with the self-righteous bollocks about compassion. You don’t own the monopoly, just because you lack the dignity to take command of your hysterical need to share it with all the other inadequate sheeple.
Yes, we're all scared and self-obsessed. That prevents us from demonstrating a serene and noble Apollonian altruism. Instead our compassion is always messed up by our own needs and feelings. But that's just the way it is. It's human. Compassion involves our feelings for ourselves as well as others. And as a result it brings a connection that ends our loneliness.
I'd rather have the kindness of selfish, scared of death humans than the cool concern of gods and angels any day.
quote:
3. By suggesting/imploring/commanding that I should pray for Muamba whatever my religious beliefs, you disrespect my beliefs about prayer. By suggesting I should pray in order to show my support for Muamba’s family, you are effectively insinuating that by not doing so I shall be failing to demonstrate my care and solidarity for the unfortunate fellow. Fuck off, thanks.
You don't think footballers and football pundits might be doing some really good theology here? Yes, we'll do our best to take note of your right not to be offended by us forgetting the nuances of your beliefs, but there are some things that are more important, right? And this is one of them. Dragging someone into a lifeboat even though we haven't been properly introduced would be another one. There's a time to be human, and this is one. quote:
4. By praying for Muamba, you’re making a travesty of your not praying for other unfortunate people. But you don’t really care about them, do you? You aren’t so shocked by that, but seeing a footballer collapse on a pitch in the middle of a match is really upsetting, isn’t it? The fact that people are so disproportionately moved by this footballer’s illness to call for and indulge in mass prayer is a disgusting indictment of the way we selectively permit, yes permit, human suffering to move us.
Yes, I agree. Muamba is a recent asylum seeker, one of those people who inspire instinctive contempt from many people, not prayers of support. we must not forget that. I hope (daredn't say pray) that he might soon be well enough to remind us of this himself.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
The whole ‘Pray for Muamba’ thing annoys me for several reasons.
Here follows the arse-drivel....
What surprizes me is that Yorick is taking his precious time to complain about other people praying - when he could be spending his time doing something useful for all these unfortunate people he keeps referring to.
Because by the same token that he is here doing something with no impact, no utility and no humanity, presumably he is withdrawing what could be his help for really important stuff elsewhere - like feeding the hungry, offering medical care to the ill, visiting the elderly and those in prison, writing letters to oppressive governments about their political prisoners, etc, etc, etc.
I mean, how can he possibly have the free time to complain about such a non-issue as people being asked to pray for a footballer, when there is so much of the world yet to be rescued from poverty, debt and death? ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I mean, how can he possibly have the free time to complain about such a non-issue as people being asked to pray for a footballer, when there is so much of the world yet to be rescued from poverty, debt and death?
Well, that’s kind of my point, actually, as Marvin pointed out with my fifth objection. If you take away all the man hours our species extravagantly wastes in superstitious pursuits like praying to non-existent gods, and instead devoted our efforts to developing better science and medicine for the treatment of heart attacks, then we would probably be actually helping Muamba, rather than simply indulging our pathetic need to find comfort in fellowship in the face of our common phobia of death from heart attacks.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Because by the same token that he is here doing something with no impact, no utility and no humanity, presumably he is withdrawing what could be his help for really important stuff elsewhere - like feeding the hungry, offering medical care to the ill, visiting the elderly and those in prison, writing letters to oppressive governments about their political prisoners, etc, etc, etc.
Nonsense - we are ALL wasting time on here. Each one of us could be doing something more productive.
Of all the anti-Yorick statements, this is the most pointless.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I mean, how can he possibly have the free time to complain about such a non-issue as people being asked to pray for a footballer, when there is so much of the world yet to be rescued from poverty, debt and death?
Well, that’s kind of my point, actually, as Marvin pointed out with my fifth objection. If you take away all the man hours our species extravagantly wastes in superstitious pursuits like praying to non-existent gods, and instead devoted our efforts to developing better science and medicine for the treatment of heart attacks, then we would probably be actually helping Muamba, rather than simply indulging our pathetic need to find comfort in fellowship in the face of our common phobia of death from heart attacks.
So Christian doctors and surgeons, nurses, charity workers, educators etc are being prevented from doing their jobs because they pray? And the exercise of praying is preventing people, generally, from doing good work? Strange. I haven't noticed this to any great degree. If anything, I can often make connections between people praying and being inspired to do even greater things than before.
Why, I'm sure if you applied yourself, Yorick, even you could find time to post condescending spiteful tripe on SOF AND do something useful in life. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
How strange that you should think that people who are being asked to pray for Muamba are doing it to such an excessive degree that they don't have time for anything else in their lives!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
No, Anselmina, I think you're being a bit disingenuous. I was making a more general point about the historical usage of human resources and endeavour. I know it’s moot, but if we hadn’t spent so much of our time and effort on the invention and religioning of gods, and had instead built hospitals and science laboratories rather than cathedrals and churches, then Muamba would almost certainly be in a better position today. Yes, I understand the contribution of religion to science (esp. Islam), but it seems like pretty shitty cost-effectiveness to me.
Sure, we all know that the cumulative man-hours wasted on praying for Muamba these last few days would actually make little difference to the progress of civilisation, but there’s a principle here. Over a ten thousand year period, these things matter.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
No, Anselmina, I think you're being a bit disingenuous. I was making a more general point about the historical usage of human resources and endeavour. I know it’s moot, but if we hadn’t spent so much of our time and effort on the invention and religioning of gods, and had instead built hospitals and science laboratories rather than cathedrals and churches, then Muamba would almost certainly be in a better position today. Yes, I understand the contribution of religion to science (esp. Islam), but it seems like pretty shitty cost-effectiveness to me.
Sure, we all know that the cumulative man-hours wasted on praying for Muamba these last few days would actually make little difference to the progress of civilisation, but there’s a principle here. Over a ten thousand year period, these things matter.
Of course, the onus would be on you to prove that the scientific and technological endeavour would have got off the ground at all without the belief in an ordered world based in the faith of scientists. Which is of course, unprovable, as faith did contribute in such a way at important points. Which just adds this ridiculous post to your ever growing catalogue of inhumane drivel criticising others for not being as strong, clever, and enlightened as you.
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Your argument against prayer could be made just as easily and rather more sensibly as an argument against watching football. After all, that takes up more time than prayer for most people, doesn't it? And how does watching football better the world according to your definition?
Down with football, say I. Down with YouTube, ice cream stands, classical music, yappy wee dogs, theatre, art, and television. Get thee to thy hospital-building.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
[@ leprechaun]
Whoops. Did I accidentally persecute you?
[ 20. March 2012, 11:49: Message edited by: Yorick ]
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Down with football, say I. Down with YouTube, ice cream stands, classical music, yappy wee dogs, theatre, art, and television. Get thee to thy hospital-building.
Sure. In terms of having hospitals, it would be a good thing, right? If you took all the money out of football and spent it on hospitals, it would undoubtedly help progress in the field of healthcare. QED.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
...4. By praying for Muamba, you’re making a travesty of your not praying for other unfortunate people. But you don’t really care about them, do you? You aren’t so shocked by that, but seeing a footballer collapse on a pitch in the middle of a match is really upsetting, isn’t it? The fact that people are so disproportionately moved by this footballer’s illness to call for and indulge in mass prayer is a disgusting indictment of the way we selectively permit, yes permit, human suffering to move us.
This is arrant nonsense. Prayer is a team sport and I'm willing to bet that every second of the day someone, somewhere in the world, is praying for the relief of those who suffer in body, mind or spirit, just as every second of the day, someone somewhere is praying for peace.
As far as I can see, it's a simple question: do you want to be part of the problem or part of the solution? And if you're part of the solution, why is it so hard to articulate your longing for that solution?
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
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Posted
This is a repost from another thread which has been closed because apparently we don't want 2 threads on Muamba. It's a tangent, but where else can it go?
am I alone in thinking the nation has gone overboard on collective concern? How many people collapse with cardiac problems every day? I heard that around 10 people under the age of 25 die of cardiac emergencies every week in the UK.
Yes, it was shocking that live on TV many saw an emergency unfold. But Fabrice is not yet dead, yet there are masses of flowers at the memorial window at the Reebok stadium. Bolton Wanderers don't know when they will be able to play their next game.
Come on guys, wake up. My place of work didn't grind to a halt when Mavis in admin collapsed and was carted off to hospital, and we certainly all turned up for work the next morning. What is going on?
Then we might remember another NW team that lost a number of players in an aircrash, yet played a game the next Saturday with a makeshift team rounded up from other clubs. Have we all gone soft?
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.
Posts: 265 | Registered: May 2001
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Pooks
Shipmate
# 11425
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Felafool:
... What is going on?
... Have we all gone soft?
No. I blame the mirror neurons.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: May 2006
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
No, Anselmina, I think you're being a bit disingenuous. I was making a more general point about the historical usage of human resources and endeavour. I know it’s moot, but if we hadn’t spent so much of our time and effort on the invention and religioning of gods, and had instead built hospitals and science laboratories rather than cathedrals and churches, then Muamba would almost certainly be in a better position today. Yes, I understand the contribution of religion to science (esp. Islam), but it seems like pretty shitty cost-effectiveness to me.
Sure, we all know that the cumulative man-hours wasted on praying for Muamba these last few days would actually make little difference to the progress of civilisation, but there’s a principle here. Over a ten thousand year period, these things matter.
Yorick, you're a smart guy. You don't need me to point out that in the beginning science, hospitals, education, charitable work etc was almost all down to religion, and religious establishments, because the religion-less world didn't exist.
The 'moronic flesh-bags' as you so respectfully refer to your fellow human beings were almost always the only or main pioneers for such things - and often because of their religious beliefs. Even now there are fine talented 'moronic flesh-bags' who carry out incredible humanitarian work and who, regardless, of how despicable to you their belief in God may be, are tremendous human beings and worthy of great respect, from anyone who, genuinelly, has even the least interest in the welfare of mankind.
We have no idea how much more civilized or how much less civilzed the world would be without the existance of that fact; and maybe in the days ahead of you when you're harvesting the time you spend not thinking nice thoughts (or praying as Christians call it) about people you care for, you can build your own wee time machine and go back and 'fix' the horrible old cruel world that so inexplicably allowed religion to pervade everything. Seeing as that's where it all went wrong. Apparently.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, the reference to 'moronic flesh-bags' by Yorick is quite interesting. I suppose this is part of the 'progress of civilisation' which he refers to. Instead of praying for people, (old-fashioned), you can call them names, and be generally scornful about them. What a brave new world is conjured up!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
I have done some study into this and I think this is how it works for liberal Roman Catholics:
They do earnestly believe that praying is to, if not for, their own advantage. Their first prayer is for the sufferer. This gives them a warm glow, individually, and an even warmer one corporately; since so many people are thinking compassionate and generous things about one of their neighbours, there is slightly less likelihood that they will beat up their wives/husbands/children.
But there's a negative payoff. For one thing, they feel resentful towards those who don't join in. For another, if the sufferer gets better, they might just feel that it was partly due to the prayers, and they realise that doctors will be miffed and God might feel taken for granted. They will themselves now suffer from the sin of pride, and have to go to confession. Where they will be advised to say a few Hail Marys, which was what they were all doing in the first place.
The clever ones, of course, say their prayers privately and suffer the remorse itself as suitable punishment for the pride, and that lets them off going to confession, where the priest might ask if they've stopped beating their wives yet.
Anybody who wants the Primitive methodist take on prayers for the sick can PM me and I'll send tham my scholarlaly twenty-five page summary in a plain brown envelope.
Or you could all sit at the feet of the immortal fucking Yorick.
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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wanderingstar
Shipmate
# 10444
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Posted
Dear Doctor Yorick,
Fabrice Muamba didn't have a heart attack.
Setting aside all this God/no god bickering, I earnestly pray you would work jolly hard and learn stuff so you don't go around using medical terms inaccurately.
It'll only confuse your patients.
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You know what you shouldn't have done? You should never have let me press all those buttons...
Posts: 273 | From: Hollow lands and hilly lands | Registered: Sep 2005
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
The whole ‘Pray for Muamba' thing annoys me for several reasons.
1. Intercessory prayer does not work. You might as well say ‘Fart for Muamba' for all the good it will do
[...]
3. By suggesting/imploring/commanding that I should pray for Muamba whatever my religious beliefs, you disrespect my beliefs about prayer.
It's a good thing you had a ‘point 2' to separate these, or you might have been struck by a nasty attack of irony.
quote:
4. By praying for Muamba, you're making a travesty of your not praying for other unfortunate people. But you don't really care about them, do you? You aren't so shocked by that, but seeing a footballer collapse on a pitch in the middle of a match is really upsetting, isn't it? The fact that people are so disproportionately moved by this footballer's illness to call for and indulge in mass prayer is a disgusting indictment of the way we selectively permit, yes permit, human suffering to move us.
I think you've got that all arse-about-face. I don't care about Muamba, not in the way that I care about my grandmother, say. I hadn't even heard of him before this incident. Everything I know about him is on this thread. And, because I know even less about other unfortunate people in the world, I care even less about them.
That is, I don't care about them personally. I have the normal human empathy, I think, for other people who suffer. Of course it matters to me that there are people who are in pain or distress. But I have no reason for preferring that misfortune should light on one person I don't know rather than another.
I can, and do, as I suppose most Christians do, pray for "all them who in this transitory life are in trouble, sorrow, need, sickness, or any other adversity", but that is rather an uninvolved sort of prayer. I can illustrate it with particular instances of adversity known to me, but then I am really praying for those people I know. One reason for praying for Muamba is that, because I know of him without personally knowing him, he is a sort of icon of all those millions of others whose sufferings I cannot care about except in a general sense, because I do not know about them, but who are known to and loved by God.
Yes, it is selective: but it is selective in a ‘representative sample' way, a way of illustrating my prayers for all the sick, whose names I do not know, with one that I do. I'm sure you could indict me for not caring enough about human suffering, but not on this argument.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Er.... So, when a football player collapses on a pitch and people are shocked and frightened by their excited sense of mortality, and the club manager implores everybody to pray for this footballer’s recovery whatever their beliefs, and they do so because it makes them feel better, they are really ‘illustrating their prayers’ for the sick and wounded children of the DRC?
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Er.... So, when a football player collapses on a pitch and people are shocked and frightened by their excited sense of mortality, and the club manager implores everybody to pray for this footballer’s recovery whatever their beliefs, and they do so because it makes them feel better, they are really ‘illustrating their prayers’ for the sick and wounded children of the DRC?
No, you tit. That's a the reason why I, as a Christian, might comply with the request, and more specifically, a reason why you are completely wrong about prayers for a famous person not known personally being evidence of a lack of concern for persons wholly unknown (except to God).
I assume that the club manager made the request because he thought it would help. Either (if he is a believer) he thought it would help directly by procuring divine assistance for his player's recovery or (whether he's a believer or not) he thought it would help in some way by offering comfort with an expression of communal support and well-wishing. Why would you imagine that he had any other motivation at all? That's the obvious and sufficient explanation, isn't it?
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
I do not question the good intention of the manager, the Muamba’s fiancée or in fact any of the masses of people whom I suppose have been moved by this terrible event to pray for Muamba. So what? I’m sure everybody wishes Muamba a speedy recovery, and I hope for it myself of course.
My point with this thread is to challenge the generally accepted idea that it must necessarily be a good thing that people seek comfort by such prayer, or even that they should find it.
It is argued that, even if praying does no actual good for the prayee, it does the prayer good, and this is a Good Thing, and that’s what it’s really all about. But that doesn’t seem right to me. The intention is very clearly that the prayee should benefit from the praying, and when his manager asks us to ‘pray for Muamba’, it’s pretty clear that he isn’t imploring you to make yourself feel better by doing so. He wants you help Muamba by praying- presumably because he believes in the healing power of intercessory prayer. It’s ‘Pray for Muamba’, not ‘Pray for Yourselves If You’re Upset About Muamba, You’ll Feel Loads Better’. If you’re praying for Muamba for your own benefit (or, bizarrely, for the benefit of sick children in the DRC), than you’re not praying for Muamba at all. So, why not be honest about it? Why not admit that that’s what you’re doing?
‘Lord, I just ask that you hold Muamba in your Love. Hold him in Your Mercy, Lord, and miraculously heal up his damaged myocardium, and deliver him from this awful tragedy. Make him fit enough for football again, oh Heavenly Father, and don’t worry about all those other innocent children in the DRC who are dying of even more horrid things (I’ll come to them later), because this will make me feel less anxious about my own mortality, because it really is a big scary thing indeed that I might drop dead one day too, and it shook me up something rotten to see that on the telly, Lord. Come to think of it, even if you don’t decide to heal Muamba, I just ask that You make me feel comforted by imagining You’re listening to this prayer and can do really strong magic that might make me never ever die, ever. Thanks, God. Amen. Oh, I do feel better already. Amen again.’
If praying is all about comforting ourselves, I think we might be better off growing the fuck up and facing reality, and concentrating all our efforts on actually helping ourselves and each other. We are not useless against illness and war- we can work to find ways of helping cure it. Let us find fellowship in doing real things that really help, not in the pathetically infantile and superstitious pursuit of self-comfort.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Surely the solution is twofold, and rather obvious.
1. Do lots more science.
2. Be very scornful to other people, who are different.
That should cover most situations.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I do not question the good intention of the manager, the Muamba’s fiancée or in fact any of the masses of people whom I suppose have been moved by this terrible event to pray for Muamba. So what? I’m sure everybody wishes Muamba a speedy recovery, and I hope for it myself of course.
My point with this thread is to challenge the generally accepted idea that it must necessarily be a good thing that people seek comfort by such prayer, or even that they should find it.
...
IF people seek or find comfort in prayer then I fail to see what your problem is. You seem to spend a good deal of your life getting het up about what other people do and think. You may as well take a chair down to the sea and tell the tide to Stop Coming In Right Now. The only thoughts and actions you have any control over are your own.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
‘Lord, I just ask that you hold Muamba in your Love. Hold him in Your Mercy, Lord, and miraculously heal up his damaged myocardium, and deliver him from this awful tragedy. Make him fit enough for football again, oh Heavenly Father,
You're not winning any style prizes for that, but it seems a perfectly acceptable prayer to me.
quote:
and don't worry about all those other innocent children in the DRC who are dying of even more horrid things
Now you are being silly. Why would anyone pray that? Much more likely that someone praying for Muamba would realise that he is the only or most important sick person and add "and help all those who are in hospital today or who are suffering in other ways".
quote:
(I'll come to them later),
No problem in praying for them later.
quote:
because this will make me feel less anxious about my own mortality, because it really is a big scary thing indeed that I might drop dead one day too, and it shook me up something rotten to see that on the telly, Lord.
Nothing wrong with that, is there? Being scared of dying is normal. If you believe in God, and trust him, why wouldn't you tell him that you are afraid?
quote:
Come to think of it, even if you don't decide to heal Muamba, I just ask that You make me feel comforted by imagining You're listening to this prayer and can do really strong magic that might make me never ever die, ever. Thanks, God. Amen. Oh, I do feel better already. Amen again.'
What you are doing here is expressing two sorts of prayer, both perfectly reasonable in themselves, as if one had to undermine the other. And it's nonsense. I can pray for Muamba (or anyone else) to get better. I can take my own fears of death to God. I can do both in the same prayer. I do not need to express one of those sentiments in a way that suggests I don't really care about the other.
Take the religious element out of it for a second. Suppose you were to overhear me say to my wife "Would you look after the kids while I visit my Nan? I'm worried about her". You would conclude that I might appreciate assistance against two unwelcome things: whatever it was that was troubling my Nan, and my own worry. I might appreciate some practical advice to help my Nan, AND I might appreciate someone who (even if they could not help her) at least trying to support and encourage me. You would have to be a first class berk to suppose that, because I didn't like the sensation of being worried, the worry was all I cared about, and that I wasn't really concerned for anyone else at all.
You are being a first class berk about prayer. Just because I hope that my request for help for another might alleviate some of my own worries occasioned by their distress does not meant that the request for help is not sincere. Why should it? The motives aren't in conflict. They sit well together. Praying that someone else not die, and meaning it, is more natural because I, as a human being, see death, my own death, as a fearful thing. My personal fear does not undermine my compassion, and may well strengthen it.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I do not question the good intention of the manager, the Muamba’s fiancée or in fact any of the masses of people whom I suppose have been moved by this terrible event to pray for Muamba. So what? I’m sure everybody wishes Muamba a speedy recovery, and I hope for it myself of course.
My point with this thread is to challenge the generally accepted idea that it must necessarily be a good thing that people seek comfort by such prayer, or even that they should find it.
...
IF people seek or find comfort in prayer then I fail to see what your problem is. You seem to spend a good deal of your life getting het up about what other people do and think. You may as well take a chair down to the sea and tell the tide to Stop Coming In Right Now. The only thoughts and actions you have any control over are your own.
Tubbs
Are you sure about that, Tubbs?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Nah, Yorkie's a Pavlovian dog. Mention Christians and prayer and he froths at the mouth. He can't help it.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
From the BBC:
Fabrice Muamba was 'dead' for 78 minutes - Bolton doctor
quote:
Dr Andrew Deaner, Consultant Cardiologist at London Chest Hospital, who was at the game as a fan, and ran onto the pitch to lend his expertise.
He said: (...)
"If I was ever going to use term miraculous it could be used here. He has made a remarkable recovery so far."
You know my views on healing, but I thought I'd just leave this here.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab, to Yorick:
You are being a first class berk [...]
Uh, yeah, that's kind of Yorick's entire schtick. He's a berk, a douche, a dingus, a yutz, a prat, a nincompoop, and a socially incompetent fool.
Bless his heart.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
Oh, yes, let's also point out that people who are given defib within 3-5 minutes only have a 30% chance of surviving (versus a 5-10% chance if there weren't Automatic External Defibs [AEDs] around and he just had good ol' CPR).
If the young man ever plays football again, it will be a true miracle because the chance of neurological damage caused by having circulation interrupted for over 5 minutes (let alone 78 (if that's true, I'd want to see EKG records) is severe.
Again, though, his kid's still got a father, his family still has a fiancee and son and nephew.
Thank God for AEDs.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Thank God for AEDs
snigger, thats just gonna piss Yorick off more.
Anyway I have been praying for Lamb and its Mother (Baa Mum) , some of it must have slipped sideways.
AtB Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I do not question the good intention of the manager, the Muamba’s fiancée or in fact any of the masses of people whom I suppose have been moved by this terrible event to pray for Muamba. So what? I’m sure everybody wishes Muamba a speedy recovery, and I hope for it myself of course.
My point with this thread is to challenge the generally accepted idea that it must necessarily be a good thing that people seek comfort by such prayer, or even that they should find it.
...
IF people seek or find comfort in prayer then I fail to see what your problem is. You seem to spend a good deal of your life getting het up about what other people do and think. You may as well take a chair down to the sea and tell the tide to Stop Coming In Right Now. The only thoughts and actions you have any control over are your own.
Tubbs
Are you sure about that, Tubbs?
Under normal circumstances, pretty much. But I'm sure there's a five paragraph explanation of why that's not the case here.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sarah G
Shipmate
# 11669
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Posted
Apparently, according to one of the treating doctors, a miracle has occurred:
Report
Did I hear a Hallelujah in the distance?
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