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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Pray for Muamba
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Golden Key
That's a very nice post. I saw 'pray for Muamba' more as a cri de coeur, than an exercise in dogmatic theology.
But Yorick wants to feel intellectually superior to that; fairy nuff.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
If praying is all about comforting ourselves, I think we might be better off growing the fuck up and facing reality, and concentrating all our efforts on actually helping ourselves and each other. We are not useless against illness and war- we can work to find ways of helping cure it. Let us find fellowship in doing real things that really help, not in the pathetically infantile and superstitious pursuit of self-comfort.
What exactly do you think I could do that would help to cure illness? Please use small words because as a religious person I am really really stoopid.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But Yorick wants to feel intellectually superior to that; fairy nuff.
Are you too pompous to read? As I have said, I do not claim superiority here. As I have also said, I’m as prone to wishful thinking as anybody else. As I have also also said, my belief system is as heavily influenced by this kind of wishful thinking as the next man’s. Why are so many of you kneejerking so defensively to this? Can’t you get over my critical tone and read my criticism? Anyone would think you must feel threatened by it, despite your assertions that I’m so utterly wrong about everything.
GK, thanks for your post. It would seem, from your patient explanation of the value and purpose of caring and compassion between people, that you suppose these things are foreign to me. That is not the case. My point here is that such humanism needs no religion. We don’t need to pray for divine intervention for Muamba- we absolutely do need to use our medical science and expertise to save his life. I feel that to petition for God’s involvement in his healthcare is in a way neglectful of the extremely noble human endeavour, but that’s my variant mileage.
And if people who struggle to come to terms with their upset at his predicament need to comfort themselves individually or by fellowship in prayer, I think this demonstrates a very common (though not universal) but rather ignoble and unhelpful tendency for irrational hysteria, based more on our own fear of death than our genuine compassion for anyone else. Again, YMMV.
If we, as a species, could leave behind our superstitious comfort-blanket inclination to invoke the help of a superior power in our thoroughly godless natural disasters, maybe, just maybe, we would be freer and more inclined to concentrate our resources on the business of finding better ways of actually dealing with them. The argument has been made that we can do both, that praying does not hold us back from our human endeavours, and that it’s only because of religion that we have effective coronary care, but I doubt the truth of this. Indeed, it seems possible to me that if all those people are indeed satisfied by the comfort they gain by praying for Muamba, they will be less hungry to find actual solutions to our real human problems.
[By the way, I note that, as our collective hysteria about Muamba diminishes, and as we hear details of his watching Match of the Day on the telly in his hospital bed, poor old God seems to be getting dumped like a bit of soggy Kleenex after a guilty wank. Apparently, the crowd had a minute of applause and ‘thoughts’ for Muamba before Bolton’s game last night, not prayers.]
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این نیز بگذرد
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What exactly do you think I could do that would help to cure illness? Please use small words because as a religious person I am really really stoopid.
I seriously doubt you would be any use whatsoever, mouesthief. For you, read You, and for ourselves, read Ourselves. We're all in this cardiac arrest shit together, after all.
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این نیز بگذرد
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Why are so many of you kneejerking so defensively to this?
Says the man whose kneejerk defensiveness against all the "you're no different" comments sets a new standard in the field. Hit a nerve, have they?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
Medicine is often over compartmentalised.
If you look at mental, emotional and spiritual health as well as physical, then you can make a compelling argument for the value of collective prayer, irrespective of the outcome of the situation being prayed for.
There is healing in being part of something bigger than you are.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
If you look at mental, emotional and spiritual health as well as physical, then you can make a compelling argument for the value of collective prayer
Collective prayer helps people, I do not dispute this. What I am challenging here is whether this need for help is a good thing (I do not think it is), whether it is a necessary thing (I do not think so), and whether it can be met by more helpful means than praying to a god who doesn't exist or doesn't care (I think it can).
The fact that we do need to find comfort in collective prayer shows how insidiously religion fosters our innate superstition.
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این نیز بگذرد
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Hit a nerve, have they?
Yes, they annoy me terribly, because they miss the fucking point. My very obvious failings have nothing to do with it. It's pathetic and futile to answer the criticism that you suck by pointing out that I do too, when I already know this perfectly well thanks.
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این نیز بگذرد
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
...and whether it can be met by more helpful means than praying to a god who doesn't exist or doesn't care (I think it can).
Praps try praying to a God who does exist and does care.
At the end of the day, this collective prayer assists the health of every participant; lowers BP, reduces catecholamines etc. I see a lot of benefit in that.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
At the end of the day, this collective prayer assists the health of every participant; lowers BP, reduces catecholamines etc. I see a lot of benefit in that.
You're ignoring the point. By your argument, we should be busy appeasing the sun's charioteer with human sacrifice, if that makes us think it'll rain on our crops. Nonsense.
We should ditch the comforting superstition and devote ourselves actually to helping each other with our ingenuity and endeavour, free of progress-retarding woo-woo. Then we would begin to see we don't need it so much.
But you don't want that, do you?
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این نیز بگذرد
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Meanwhile the Messiah signs for Rennes at Pentecost (referring to the fact that the catholic church is taking over a local stadium on Whit Sunday to do a huge first communion celebration). I have to say the ad is very clever.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yorick wrote:
Are you too pompous to read? As I have said, I do not claim superiority here.
Well, you did say:
That is my scepticism, and, yes, I do feel it is an intellectually superior position to certainty in belief heavily based on wishful thinking.
OK, I accept that saying that your position is intellectually superior is not the same as saying that you are intellectually superior. But come on, buddy, you come across as a real hoity-toity, de haut en bas, character, who might just refer to people as 'moronic flesh-bags'.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
come on, buddy, you come across as a real hoity-toity, de haut en bas, character, who might just refer to people as 'moronic flesh-bags'.
I've been called worse, which sort of thing is fine on this board, where calling people moronic fleshbags is de rigeur. I don't mind being called hoity-toity, since I actually am, but I'm bound to say this is no answer to my arguments.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yorick
How about the argument that on the one hand, you claim that you are not claiming superiority, yet on the other hand, you did?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
I don't claim superiority (I'm as prone to wishful thinking as anyone else, as I have said, what, eight or nine fucking times already, and this informs my beliefs just like it does for everyone else, like I've said, what eight or nine fucking times too), but so what if it comes over to you that I did? Yes, you could then hate me more because I'm obviously a shithead, but what about my arguments, eh? You seem more interested in telling me I'm horrid because I appear to think I'm superior than you are in dealing with my points. Get over it.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yorick
But you did claim an intellectual superiority for your position, and you have used very derogatory language for religious people.
It's absurd to say, just follow my arguments, when part of your whole self-presentation is this tough, you're all a bunch of moronic flesh-bags, and you're inadequate, and I'm really intellectually ahead of you, style.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Hit a nerve, have they?
Yes, they annoy me terribly, because they miss the fucking point. My very obvious failings have nothing to do with it. It's pathetic and futile to answer the criticism that you suck by pointing out that I do too, when I already know this perfectly well thanks.
Yorick, 'they' may miss your fucking point but they do not necessarily miss the fucking point. What you know isn't necessarily right. Your acknowledgement of 'failings' is a pathetic attempt to deflect genuine criticism of misanthropy, which runs through every word you have ever posted. Then again, it's probably misanthropy coupled with a desire to annoy and wind people up that drives you to post here.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
it's probably misanthropy coupled with a desire to annoy and wind people up that drives you to post here.
Why must you obsess about this? What difference does it make? Why should you give a shit why I post here- it's not like you're obliged to read or respond to anything I write. Is it because you realise you're too intellectually feeble to stop yourself getting wound up by my posts, and you want to position the blame for it on me, or something? It's very dull, whatever it is.
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این نیز بگذرد
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's absurd to say, just follow my arguments...
...and yet some people actually manage to do so. I'm here to discuss stuff with them, and frankly don't mind what the rest of you think about what a horrid man I must be. Not cared for a long time, now.
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این نیز بگذرد
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
it's probably misanthropy coupled with a desire to annoy and wind people up that drives you to post here.
Why must you obsess about this? What difference does it make? Why should you give a shit why I post here- it's not like you're obliged to read or respond to anything I write. Is it because you realise you're too intellectually feeble to stop yourself getting wound up by my posts, and you want to position the blame for it on me, or something? It's very dull, whatever it is.
Thanks Yorick, that's as good an example of projection as I have seen on the Ship in eight years!
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's absurd to say, just follow my arguments...
...and yet some people actually manage to do so. I'm here to discuss stuff with them, and frankly don't mind what the rest of you think about what a horrid man I must be. Not cared for a long time, now.
Just enjoy it, mate, you're the centre of attention (sort of), you're winding everybody up, you're pretending to be wound up. What's not to like?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Yo, Yorick, I'd appreciate an answer, if you've got one. And it might lower the temp in here by one or two degrees.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
You really, honestly, believe your level of self-awareness is superior to everyone else here? Because why? Because you think it is? Based on what?
Yeah, thanks for characterising me that way, but I am not talking about anyone here specifically being inferior to me. I'm talking about the Pray for Muamba sentiment, which I think represents a more common sort of low-grade unthinking religiosity verging on folklore and superstition.
I don't know how self-aware you might be, but many of the religious people I know often deny, when asked, that their beliefs are based (even in part) on wishful thinking, which seems like either bullshit or low self-awareness to me. Maybe I'm wrong.
For myself, I naturally assume that my beliefs are largely informed by my wanting them to be true, and this fact causes me seriously to doubt their truth. That is my scepticism, and, yes, I do feel it is an intellectually superior position to certainty in belief heavily based on wishful thinking.
I'm not characterising you in any way to be derogatory to you. You really seem to be coming across as saying that those of us who hope that our wishes are true are deluding ourselves, but that you aren't. And the reason you're stating why, is because you know you want your wishes to be true.
Which means you assume the rest of us don't know this about ourselves, and are not healthily skeptical. You also seem to accept - rather unquestioningly, and therefore contrarily enough - that skepticism must be a good thing as a matter of course.
Have you examined how a habit of indiscriminate skepticism may be the most self-serving of your own Deep Down Wishes?
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
You really seem to be coming across as saying that those of us who hope that our wishes are true are deluding ourselves, but that you aren't. And the reason you're stating why, is because you know you want your wishes to be true.
Yes, I know that's how I'm coming across, but it's not right. I’m saying repeatedly and clearly that I delude myself just as much as you and everyone else does. I’m saying that we all tend to believe what we most want to be true, including myself. I am not claiming that you, personally, are not healthily sceptical, but that we generally tend to be ignorant of or deny that the great engine of our beliefs- those that we hold to be objectively true- is our deep down wish for them to be true. This is not a controversial position.
I also propose (perhaps more controversially) that there is often a correlation between the common popularity of a belief and the likelihood that it is objectively false, and in those cases, some self-awareness of the way our inbuilt wishful thinking influences our adoption of belief is preferable to blind acceptance of certainty. Superior, even, with apologies to the downtrodden. Maybe that’s wrong. Maybe it’s a strawman. I simply put it out there to be discussed.
Obviously, my argument about wishful thinking involves some pretty broad generalising, and I have no doubt there are many exceptions to the rule (I’ll get back to you, LC), and people are likely to be offended by the generalisation. I’m sorry about that, but I think the point is worth making regardless. And, yes, I do think scepticism must be a good thing as a matter of course, even if it may be the most self-serving of my own Deep Down Wishes, because as a stupid fleshbag it’s the only way I know to see these Deep Down Wishes for what they are.[/QB][/QUOTE]
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این نیز بگذرد
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
We don’t need to pray for divine intervention for Muamba- we absolutely do need to use our medical science and expertise to save his life.
Given the fact that I have no medical science and expertise, it follows that I should do nothing.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I’m saying repeatedly and clearly that I delude myself just as much as you and everyone else does. I’m saying that we all tend to believe what we most want to be true, including myself. I am not claiming that you, personally, are not healthily sceptical, but that we generally tend to be ignorant of or deny that the great engine of our beliefs- those that we hold to be objectively true- is our deep down wish for them to be true.
So everyone, yourself included, is deluding themselves by believing that what they want to be true really is true, and nobody is superior to anybody else for doing so, certainly not you, but all those people praying for Muamba are stupid fuckwits for doing something that conforms to their deep wishes and you're not a stupid fuckwit for conforming to your deep wishes.
Have I got that right?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
It seems so self-evident somehow that one person's faith is another person's superstition that having made that statement I hardly know where else a 'discussion' could go.
I did see on facebook the other day where a friend posted that you haven't won the argument until your opponent says 'whatever!' And this seems like a very 'whateverish' sort of discussion.
But since Yorick frequently functions as the poor man's IngoB – all of the length but less of the insight – I'm not sure how he has overlooked Karl Marx in his rant. Because of course Karl says it better, and with more compassion:
quote:
Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yeah, but Marx wasn't trolling.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
So everyone, yourself included, is deluding themselves by believing that what they want to be true really is true, and nobody is superior to anybody else for doing so, certainly not you, but all those people praying for Muamba are stupid fuckwits for doing something that conforms to their deep wishes and you're not a stupid fuckwit for conforming to your deep wishes.
Have I got that right?
Not really, no (but you knew that, didn’t you?). I would edit it like this:
So practically everyone, myself excluded, is ignoring the significance of the fact that they tend to believe in the things they most want to be true, and nobody is superior to anybody else for doing so, certainly not me, but all those people praying for Muamba are stupid fuckwits for doing something in ignorance or outright denial of the fact that it blindly and unthinkingly conforms to their deep wishes and I’m not a stupid fuckwit for conforming to my deep wishes because I realise the massive influence of my wishful thinking on the way I uphold my beliefs and this makes me sceptical of their objective truth value. Or something like that.
[ 28. March 2012, 15:30: Message edited by: Yorick ]
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این نیز بگذرد
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
You might think you've made a significant change to the quote there, but it still reads like the ramblings of someone who is essentially saying "it's good when I do it, but bad when you do it".
Lots of people's morality boils down to that one way or another, of course. My own included. But because I'm aware that my morality works that way, I'm allowed to call you out when you do it as well ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) .
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It also seems to presuppose that some people can become aware of their wishes, wish fulfilments, deep hidden drives, and so on and so on.
However, this seems to ignore the unconscious, which presumably (if one accepts that such a thing exists), is not amenable to introspection.
One might even argue that it is precisely those who claim to be able to reliably introspect about their own wishes and motives, who are fooling themselves.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I must admit that 'I'm not a stupid fuckwit' (Yorick), has great charm, and even a sort of innocence.
It reminds me of children in the playground, who stoutly aver, that 'you're the pudding in the middle, I'm not', yet everyone else can see that they are in the middle.
I suppose, less charitably, you could say that saying 'I'm not stupid' is very very fucking stupid indeed, and is often used in arguments between man and wife, with strange consequences. Well, let's not go there.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Golden Key
That's a very nice post. I saw 'pray for Muamba' more as a cri de coeur, than an exercise in dogmatic theology.
But Yorick wants to feel intellectually superior to that; fairy nuff.
I hope you're not accusing *me* of dogmatic theology? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Yorrick--
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
As I have also said, I’m as prone to wishful thinking as anybody else. As I have also also said, my belief system is as heavily influenced by this kind of wishful thinking as the next man’s. Why are so many of you kneejerking so defensively to this? Can’t you get over my critical tone and read my criticism? Anyone would think you must feel threatened by it, despite your assertions that I’m so utterly wrong about everything.
Yorrick, you're wrestling with a bunch of stuff. But you're doing it with knives in your hands, and injuring people around you (to one extent or another). Then you ask why we're bothered by the knives...
FWIW: you really do sound as if you've got one standard for yourself (and, perhaps other atheists), and another for anyone who is religious. You say we're all believing what we wish to be true--including you--but then you keep saying that your wishes are better than ours.
It's ok to wrestle with stuff, rage, and storm. But if you attack people and their hopes of wish fulfillment, while being of two minds about your own, don't be surprised when people don't hear your underlying pain and questions.
If you said something like "Shit, prayer doesn't work, and I'm not sure science and atheism cover everything, either; how the hell does anyone live with this?? And doesn't religion get in the way? I don't get it", you might well get a different reception.
quote:
GK, thanks for your post. It would seem, from your patient explanation of the value and purpose of caring and compassion between people, that you suppose these things are foreign to me. That is not the case.
I only meant that in the context of prayer, and what's going on with people when they do it. I didn't mean to assail your capacity for compassion.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
My point here is that such humanism needs no religion. We don’t need to pray for divine intervention for Muamba- we absolutely do need to use our medical science and expertise to save his life. I feel that to petition for God’s involvement in his healthcare is in a way neglectful of the extremely noble human endeavour, but that’s my variant mileage.
Have you been running into lots of people who eschew all health care for prayer? They do exist; but IME most people don't stick with only prayer. But maybe, as a doctor, you've run into more of them than I have.
I don't think that religion automatically means disdain for medical care. Religions are often involved with it, in one way or another. There may be some disagreements about things like embryonic stem cells, abortions, and such. But, in modern times, religion usually doesn't stop medical care or research.
quote:
And if people who struggle to come to terms with their upset at his predicament need to comfort themselves individually or by fellowship in prayer, I think this demonstrates a very common (though not universal) but rather ignoble and unhelpful tendency for irrational hysteria, based more on our own fear of death than our genuine compassion for anyone else. Again, YMMV.
That's often in the mix...but is it necessarily unhealthy to be afraid of death?
Most people probably didn't have any practical way to help Muamba. As I said upthread, a lot of the response was probably due to celebrity worship...but fans may well have been giving what they could to someone they felt some connection with.
Maybe it's kind of like when Princess Diana died: people cared about her persona, about the way that persona made them feel, about her good works, about her bumpy life...and even about Diana herself. It was a complicated occurrence, with excesses and craziness--but that's not all it was.
quote:
If we, as a species, could leave behind our superstitious comfort-blanket inclination to invoke the help of a superior power in our thoroughly godless natural disasters, maybe, just maybe, we would be freer and more inclined to concentrate our resources on the business of finding better ways of actually dealing with them. The argument has been made that we can do both, that praying does not hold us back from our human endeavours, and that it’s only because of religion that we have effective coronary care, but I doubt the truth of this.
Hmmm. Well, I, too, doubt the coronary care correlation, at least if it includes that "only".
If people--especially governments, civil engineers, and the like--neglect disaster preparedness because they think that God will protect them...they're unwise and deluded.
Are you trying to say that too much money and time are given to religion? And they should be put towards more practical ends? A lot of religious folks and institutions financially support practical help.
quote:
Indeed, it seems possible to me that if all those people are indeed satisfied by the comfort they gain by praying for Muamba, they will be less hungry to find actual solutions to our real human problems.
I absolutely think that people can help people on a humanistic basis, and even on an "if I help others, they may help me" basis, and do wonderful things.
But a lot of people develop that hunger for actual solutions in the context of religion. Maybe they feel God is calling/nudging them to particular action. Or, as they grow and heal and come to know themselves better, they may realize that other people are precious and that they should be helping them.
There are different ways of getting to the "let's make things better" point.
quote:
By the way, I note that, as our collective hysteria about Muamba diminishes, and as we hear details of his watching Match of the Day on the telly in his hospital bed, poor old God seems to be getting dumped like a bit of soggy Kleenex after a guilty wank. Apparently, the crowd had a minute of applause and ‘thoughts’ for Muamba before Bolton’s game last night, not prayers.]
Well, that's a...colorful way of putting it. But I think a lot of that has to do with crowd psychology.
Poor old God does get alternately ignored, praised, beseeched, feared, and kicked from pillar to post, though.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Some of us believe in Christianity IN SPITE OF WISHING IT TO BE TRUE...
So account for THAT one, Yorick.
The point is that you want your religious beliefs to be true. Whether you believe in them because or despite wanting them to be true is immaterial- you want them to be true, so you believe they are.
Thank you again, Golden Key, for your measured and generous post. I do of course see that what I’m trying to get across here is falling at the first hurdle- by giving the impression that I feel I’m superior to theists, I lose my audience. My aggressive tone is also to blame, and my intransigence in the face of well-considered counter-argument. I am also finding it quite difficult to articulate what I actually mean.
My gripe is not with theists like you, who have a sober and philosophically intelligent understanding of prayer, but with the mass of sheeple who make and respond hysterically and unthinkingly to the call to Pray for Muamba, many of whom own a very flaccid sort of religious faith. This floppy sort of theism seems shallow and massively ignorant to me, and demonstrates much of what I feel is bad about religious faith. People respond emotionally to something that upsets them- perfectly naturally, of course- and reactively invoke a supernatural force to help them handle it. There’s nothing rational about it. It’s weak minded and pathetic. Yes, yes, it’s all so very human, so common, so understandable, but when I see it in action I despair that our species will ever be capable of rising intellectually above these things by seeing them for what they are, and that we will always be burdened by the rotting albatross of superstition.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Golden Key
That's a very nice post. I saw 'pray for Muamba' more as a cri de coeur, than an exercise in dogmatic theology.
But Yorick wants to feel intellectually superior to that; fairy nuff.
I hope you're not accusing *me* of dogmatic theology?
I have to admit, it was the cadence of the line, which attracted me there, so it's a sad case of the triumph of form over content.
Another lovely post from you, I notice. One good thing to come out of this thread, is the very solicitous way in which Yorick has been treated. One might even speak of the tender-hearted way in which he has been cared for, listened to, responded to.
I think everyone can sense the very emotional issues which are evoked for Yorick, and it is a credit to this forum, that he has been cared for so tenderly.
At the risk of sounding pedantic, the triumph of praxis over doxis, I would say, so well done for that.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Hello, I am reading this.
Before you get all tearful about the yin round here, you should know there's been plenty of yang.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
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Posted
I've met atheists who wished Christianity was true, and Christians who wished it wasn't.
Anyway, would "remember Muamba in your prayers" have provoked a less hostile response?
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Refraction Villanelles
Posts: 464 | From: Southern England | Registered: Jul 2011
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by agingjb:
I've met atheists who wished Christianity was true, and Christians who wished it wasn't.
I doubt the latter. I cannot see how it is possible for a Christian to wish their beliefs were untrue. Surely, you're talking about the superficial false denial of much deeper wishful thinking?
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
"Wishing it wasn't true" may be too strong a way of putting it, but I'm certainly in the category of those who came to Christian faith kicking and screaming all the way. I became a Christian because of a compelling conviction that God was real and Jesus Christ was who he claimed to be, whether I liked it or not. (I know that plenty of people disagree with me on this point, but I was convinced.)
Having made it to the other side, the discovery that God was in fact full of kindness and grace was a very pleasant surprise that I hadn't entirely been expecting.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, I've met loads of Christians who now and again, start cussing, damn and blast, if only I could just drop all this, and be free of it. And some of them do just that. But others are brought back to the table.
Reminds me of Herbert's poem, 'The Collar',
I struck the board, and cried, "No more;
I will abroad!
What? shall I ever sigh and pine?
My lines and life are free, free as the road,
How many Christians have said likewise? Yet the poem has a lovely end.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by agingjb:
I've met atheists who wished Christianity was true, and Christians who wished it wasn't.
I doubt the latter. I cannot see how it is possible for a Christian to wish their beliefs were untrue. Surely, you're talking about the superficial false denial of much deeper wishful thinking?
"But I beneath a rougher sea,
And whelmed in deeper gulfs than he."
William Cowper
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Refraction Villanelles
Posts: 464 | From: Southern England | Registered: Jul 2011
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
I'm struck by the oft-made parallel with falling in love. Nobody wants it, but we all want it.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Hello, I am reading this.
Before you get all tearful about the yin round here, you should know there's been plenty of yang.
Indeed, but doesn't love always seek to heal hate? And my enemy is my greatest teacher.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
doesn't love always seek to heal hate?
You're new here. Stick around in Hell* for a bit, then let me know what you think.
* although INTPIUTB.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Which Clint Eastwood film is it, where someone says, go to hell, and he replies, already been there?
Hell isn't punishment, it's training. And through the great training there, I found love.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One good thing to come out of this thread, is the very solicitous way in which Yorick has been treated. One might even speak of the tender-hearted way in which he has been cared for, listened to, responded to.
I think everyone can sense the very emotional issues which are evoked for Yorick, and it is a credit to this forum, that he has been cared for so tenderly.
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
Take it to All Saints, ya freak.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Bless you, my child.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Some of us believe in Christianity IN SPITE OF WISHING IT TO BE TRUE...
So account for THAT one, Yorick.
The point is that you want your religious beliefs to be true. Whether you believe in them because or despite wanting them to be true is immaterial- you want them to be true, so you believe they are.
EARTH TO YORICK!!!! You're missing my point, so I'll type slower. My psychology is such that when I want something to be true, I automatically, INVARIABLY, believe it is not.
examples follow.
I WANT Mr. Lamb to be safe even though he's an hour late home; therefore I call every hospital within a 100 miles, because I'm certain he's not. (I also start thinking about funeral plans, plots, etc.)
I WANT to keep my job after my review today or tomorrow; therefore I am already taking home my things from my desk, being certain I won't. (I solemnly tell you, my crap is in a box RIGHT NOW for easier portability. My cubemates think I'm nuts.)
I WANT to be physically healthy and live to 100; therefore I am planning for my son's guardianship, how to pass along my computer passwords, etc. and in particular how to get my widowed husband through our banking system when he can barely access email.
Do you get it now?
And then there's Christianity. I want (how I want) Jesus Christ to be real and true. Therefore it follows that you, Yorick, must be right, and there is no sech person.
Except He won't go away...
Christianity is the one major contradiction to my psychology, and in a lot of ways it's like having a wedgie--I wouldn't put myself in that position if I had a choice, but obviously I'm There.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I doubt the latter. I cannot see how it is possible for a Christian to wish their beliefs were untrue.
Didn't CS Lewis describe himself as "the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England"?
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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