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Source: (consider it) Thread: Jane Austen
Robert Armin

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# 182

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Responding to various things, I think the first draft of Pride and Prejudice was Love and Freindship (sic) and that it was epistolary.

Also, I am suspicious of reading too much of Austen's personal feelings about her parents into her portrayal of parental characters. How much plot would be left in P&P if the Bennett's were reliable figures? In the same way, how many children's adventure books would not have been written if the local police always listened to the kids' concerns and followed up on them efficiently? (Slight tangent, but I read a psychologist somewhere saying that the best gift a parent can give their child is the their own imperfection. A truly perfect parent, who did everything right, would produce perpetual infants, simply because those children would not need to grow up.)

Getting back to the problem of Mansfield Park, Austen did say she thought that P&P was too "light and bright and sparkling", and it seems as though she sat down to write a more earnestly moral novel. Fanny may be quiet, but she is strong in moral terms (though not physically, which underlines her ethical authority) and she is the only heroine Austen addresses in the novel as "my so-and-so" which indicates she felt a lot of affection for her. I come back to P&P for pleasure, I return to MP because it is a problem, and raises all sorts of awkward questions.

[ 08. May 2012, 09:45: Message edited by: Robert Armin ]

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Responding to various things, I think the first draft of Pride and Prejudice was Love and Freindship (sic) and that it was epistolary.

Love and Freindship is an entirely different work. It is epistolary (although all the letters are by the same writer and there's no sign of any correspondence from the other side). While it has dull patches, there are parts of it that are hilariously funny.

It is probably contemporary with the first draft of P&P or a bit earlier, and it wasn't published in Austen's lifetime.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Steve H
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# 17102

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Anyone else ever noticed that Jane's six completed major novels fall into three pairs, title-wise - two something and somethings, two place-names, and two single-word titles? This would work better if the last pair were either both girl's names or both abstract emotions, but all the same - curious.

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:

Returning to Jane, does anyone else agree that there's something of a moral hole in her fiction, in that, although she makes gentle fun of them, she never questions the right of a small minority to live in idle - or at least unproductive - luxury, dependent on the labours of the productive vast majority, who live in or near poverty? I love her novels, but that aspect of them makes me a little uncomfortable.

While she may not question the social order, it's hardly the model of exploitation that you suggest. The wealthy have their obligations to their tenants and poorer neighbours. Emma sends a present of meat to the Bates; John Martin asks Mr Knightley's advice about his marriage; even the awful Lady Catherine intervenes - albeit unhelpfully - in the lives of the villagers. Also JA is acutely aware how precarious that prosperity is for women. Miss Bates will fall on hard times; the Dashwood girls are turned out of their home; Lucy Steele, like Mrs Clay, needs to entrap a husband to survive.

In pre-social security days, you had only the web of kinship obligation between you are some very bleak Georgian alternatives.

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Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32

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Also, did any novelist question the social order then? AFAIK, Walter Scott didn't.

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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It's true that Jane Austen is a conservative in the context of England of the early 1800s. But I think she's criticising that world from within. Certainly in Mansfield Park she strongly implies that if the privileged don't live up to the responsibilities that privilege brings they risk bringing the whole thing down.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Belisarius
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# 32

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Yes, and the aristocrats depicted range from non-entities (Lady Dalrymple) to significantly flawed (Lord Osborne) to decidedly negative (Lady Susan, Lady Catherine, The Honorable Mr. Yates). The only remotely positive portrayal is Lord Fitzwilliam, and even he is on the hunt for an heiress.

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ken
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# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Belisarius:
Also, did any novelist question the social order then? AFAIK, Walter Scott didn't.

Is Swift a novellist? Was Bunyan? OK, he''s a lot earlier and in a different kind of world. Candide is a novel, but Voltaire wasn't writing in English. I've never read it but I'd be willing to bet that Maria: or, The Wrongs of Woman by Mary Wollstonecraft challenged the social order. I must confess to never having read Smollet either but his stuff is, so I am told (and so I hear on the odd BBC radio serialisation) rather critical, in a satirical way. And that was the age of Hogart and Gillray


In the late 18th & very early 19th century maybe not so much novellists, but poets certainly did. Romantic period and all that.

Later (not that much later) novelists got a bit more political. More about reforming and repairing the social order than overthrowing it, but there was certainly criticism in Dickens and Gaskell, and a desire to expose the conditions of the poor - Disraeli and well. And at least satire in Trollope and Thackeray. The Brontes were maybe more oblique.

Late 17th and most 18th century English writing - or at any rate the stuff we remember - often seems very lower-middle-class to me. In a hugely overgeneralised way. But its socially climbing lower-middle-class, not socially critical. Jumped up clerks who want to be treated like aristocrats and resent it when they aren't - they want to join the party, they want to be part of the club. And if they can't join it they stand on the sidelines and make snarly remarks under their breath and throw glace cherries at their masters and betters when they aren't looking. So its natural mode of political expression isn't the exposure or the call to arms, but satire and sarcasm.

But from the 1770s and 1780s onwards the Gothic and Romantic turns things on their head. You get a few genuine working-class blokes (almost always men) who attract attention partly because they are supposedly triumphing over their background. Dogs on their hind legs. I know more about the poets than the novellists. Burns (who was astonishingly famous in his lifetime), Blake (who wasn't), Keats (who sort of was) and others. So they knew what the social order looked like from the bottom (well, about half wqay up to be honest) and they could get angry about it. And you get some seriously posh types like Byron and Shelley who try to take over and lead the revolution. (Shelley and Byron both do being angry really well). Wordsworth and Coleridge and Southey weren't either aristocrats or artisans. But they certainly didn't write as if they thought being an aristocrat was moraly better than being an artisan. And they certainly didn't think that the aristos had a natural right to rule.

I can't think who the first genuinely famous English novellist from a genuinely working-class background was. Unless we count Bunyan as a novellist. Which I think we ought to [Biased]

[ 08. May 2012, 19:50: Message edited by: ken ]

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Ken

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venbede
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# 16669

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I can't think who the first genuinely famous English novellist from a genuinely working-class background was. Unless we count Bunyan as a novellist. Which I think we ought to [Biased]

I think we can. At any rate The Life and Death of Mr Badman. (Where do you place Defoe, ken?)

But that doesn't mean to dismiss Jane Austen.

Incidentally, Lady Russell in Persuasion got it wrong in advising Anne to reject Captain Wentworth, but she's titled and not a bad sort.

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Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32

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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Incidentally, Lady Russell in Persuasion got it wrong in advising Anne to reject Captain Wentworth, but she's titled and not a bad sort.

Titled, yes, but not in the aristocracy. Persuasion mentions that as "the mere widow of a knight", she was more impressed with Sir Walter's rank than she should have been.

And of course, Sir Walter and his oldest daughter, (closer to, but not in the aristocracy either) truly abase themselves toadying up to their distant relation Lady Dalrymple.

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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Belisarius:
Also, did any novelist question the social order then? AFAIK, Walter Scott didn't.

Is Swift a novellist? Was Bunyan? OK, he''s a lot earlier and in a different kind of world. Candide is a novel, but Voltaire wasn't writing in English. I've never read it but I'd be willing to bet that Maria: or, The Wrongs of Woman by Mary Wollstonecraft challenged the social order. I must confess to never having read Smollet either but his stuff is, so I am told (and so I hear on the odd BBC radio serialisation) rather critical, in a satirical way. And that was the age of Hogart and Gillray
Yes, but by the time Austen arrived on the scene, the world had changed. In the aftermath of the French Revolution, virtually the whole of England was in retreat from radicalism - including, of course, Coleridge and Wordsworth, who had originally been in the van. There’s a convincing argument that, for all the personal radicalism of the younger Romantics, by and large the Romantic movement represented a retreat from the political to the personal. In those times, and with a family connection to a guillotined aristocrat, one can hardly blame Austen for taking a fairly conservative view. And, whatever her personal inclinations (IMHO there’s some evidence from Persuasion that she might have become more radical had she lived), a female novelist stepping into the political realm would probably only have been mocked and derided.

We also view the Romantics with the benefit of hindsight - in Austen’s day they weren’t such a big deal. Let’s face it, how many poems in the Lyrical Ballads have any real merit? There’s a discussion between Edward and Marianne in Sense and Sensibility in which he gently mocks her (Romantic) preference for “ruined, tattered cottages” whereas he prefers “tidy, happy villages”. The (perhaps slightly unfair) implication being that the Romantics actually enjoyed their bleeding heart relationship with the poor and down-trodden. Austen actually preferred Cowper; she was dead before Byron published Don Juan and dead before Keats really made his mark. I'm not aware that History records what she made of Shelley - it would be interesting to know.

Anyway, the personal is political. Given the tenor of the times, in her own quiet way, Austen was about as radical as it was possible for a woman of her class, situation and temperament to be.

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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Austen does offer some slanted criticism of Byron in Persuasion.

While not all the Lyrical Ballads are masterpieces most of them are worth reading. (There are people who love The Idiot Boy.)

[ 09. May 2012, 11:13: Message edited by: Dafyd ]

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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venbede
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# 16669

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Time for another "What's tricky about Mansfield Park" session.

Whatever would anyone now think was wrong about putting on a spot of amateur dramatics at home? OK, in the event, it shows up the silly side of everyone, but I mean, where's the harm?

And if a woman left a deeply unsympathetic husband and took up with another man, most people would express at least some sympathy, let alone condemn her as immoral. (Maria's immorality is surely in marrying Mr Rushworth in the first place. And Henry is being a bastard knowing what it will mean for Maria.)

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32

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It can be argued that doing any large-scale amusements while the father was away on a dangerous trip wasn't right, but there were, in real-life High Society, several instances of notorious elopements, etc. directly resulting from amateur theatricals.

Per the ominiscent narration, Henry was annoyed with Maria snubbing him when they met again (though one critic mentions that being pleasant and unconcerned to him should have wounded his vanity more); without technically being unfaithful to Fanny, he wanted to bring her back in line, not realizing until it was too late that she was willing to leave her husband for his sake.

The narration also alludes that Henry's punishment, in a perfect world, would be as bad as Maria's; not much pity is wasted on Mr. Rushworth.

[ 10. May 2012, 15:54: Message edited by: Belisarius ]

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TurquoiseTastic

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# 8978

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Is there a thought that the theatre is a little bit immoral per se? Mansfield Park does have a touch of moralism in it - for example, it is considered a mark of Henry Crawford's utter licentiousness that "Sunday travelling had been (gasp) a common thing!"
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Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32

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I think that's William Elliot in Persuasion, but MP does go (by modern standards) overboard by lumping the threatricals with Henry's toying with Maria as a "riot of gratifications".

Incidentally, Jane Bennet is shocked to find out Wickham's a gamester, but that's more a last straw (now even she can no longer give him the benefit of a doubt).

[ 10. May 2012, 18:18: Message edited by: Belisarius ]

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Animals may be Evolution's Icing, but Bacteria are the Cake.
Andrew Knoll

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I can't think who the first genuinely famous English novellist from a genuinely working-class background was. Unless we count Bunyan as a novellist. Which I think we ought to [Biased]

I think we can. At any rate The Life and Death of Mr Badman. (Where do you place Defoe, ken?)

Petty bourgeois [Razz]

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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venbede
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# 16669

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Ta, ken. I haven't read it for ages, but I remember all those footnotes referring to Proverbs. I've never found it (Proverbs) a very edifying part of Scripture since.

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Lothiriel
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# 15561

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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
Is there a thought that the theatre is a little bit immoral per se? Mansfield Park does have a touch of moralism in it - for example, it is considered a mark of Henry Crawford's utter licentiousness that "Sunday travelling had been (gasp) a common thing!"

Edmund is actually a devoted theatre-goer:
quote:
'Now, Edmund, do not be disagreeable,' said Julia. 'Nobody loves a play better than you do, or can have gone much farther to see one.'

'True, to see real acting, good hardened real acting; but I would hardly walk from this room to the next to look at the raw efforts of those who have not been bred to the trade...'

However, it may be that it was considered acceptable for certain classes of people to act, but not for gentlemen's families.

Edmund's initial objections were (a) the fact that their father was "in constant danger" on his travels, and that to indulge in lighthearted amusement in his absence was inappropriate; and (b) Maria's "delicate situation" as a young lady unofficially engaged to be married.

After Lover's Vows was selected, his objections were more vehement, as the play would require the ladies to speak and act immodestly.

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Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32

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quote:
Originally posted by Lothiriel:
Maria's "delicate situation" as a young lady unofficially engaged to be married.

That's Edmund's weakest objection--(the admittedly dim-witted) Mr. Rushworth has no objection to Maria or himself participating; he is only disappointed there just happen to be no scenes where they act together.

Significantly, the narration makes no obviously negative commentary when Mrs. Grant, a clergyman's wife, participates. Even Fanny, against her better judgment, is fascinated by the rehearsal process.

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HCH
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# 14313

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I thought that part of the objection to the amateur theatricals was that the play selected, "Lover's Vows", was in some fashion objectionable. If they had decided to do, for instance, a medieval mystery play such as "Everyman", I doubt that the objections would have been so strong.

I thought the suggestiveness of "Lover's Vows" was part of the reason it was chosen, as some of those involved lacked a proper moral sense.

The simple fact that Sir Thomas would have disapproved of the activity, had he been home, should have been enough to deter respectful young people; they are not sufficiently or sincerely respectful. (At least, that is the argument.)

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Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32

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quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
I thought the suggestiveness of "Lover's Vows" was part of the reason it was chosen, as some of those involved lacked a proper moral sense.

Not directly--several characters admit that some parts of the play be may have to be cut out; that Mr. Yates's (presumably decadent) aristocratic circle almost performed it, however, helps give it a stamp of approval.

Julia, after Henry's mindgames, Maria's backstabbing, and Tom's Method-y cluelessness, naturally blasts the play and production.

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Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32

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quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
If they had decided to do, for instance, a medieval mystery play such as "Everyman", I doubt that the objections would have been so strong.

Too few female characters. [Biased]

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Animals may be Evolution's Icing, but Bacteria are the Cake.
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venbede
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# 16669

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I've just began re-reading Mansfield Park. When Fanny is a lonely child and Edmund befriends her, is very touching.

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Moo

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# 107

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I've just been re-reading The Watsons. I came across a passage where the older sister explains to the younger one why getting married is essential. Otherwise you end up as an old woman with no money that no one wants.

Moo

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Sir Kevin
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# 3492

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My wife has at least one Austen book on her e-Reader (Barnes and Noble Nook - similar to a Kindle). She is reading it even as we speak...

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venbede
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# 16669

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I've just read the text of Lovers' Vows, the play in Mansfield Park.

I didn't realise Maria and Henry are playing mother and (illegitimate)son. I might post more tomorrow.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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