|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Of Presbyterians and prayerbooks
|
Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
|
Posted
Yes, but would it not be more in keeping with reformed tradition rather to have the words of institution as the 'warrant', after the invitation but before the setting apart of the elements, and then to repeat them (with the 'manual acts') at the fraction? Putting them into the main eucharistic prayer runs the risk of implying the 'magic moment' concept of consecration. This way of doing things may cause Anglicans and others to blanch (cf this MW report), but a eucharistic prayer without them is a perfectly reasonable and indeed ancient practice - witness the Anaphora of Addai and Mari in its original form.
--------------------
Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
The [American Presbyterian] Book of Common Worship offers multiple options, two of which are the Words of Institution being sandwiched within the wider eucharistic prayer, and the Words of Institution being skipped during the EP and later said together with the distribution.
If Episcoterian were here in the US, I'd suggest that I doubt the majority of Presbies care about that placement at all. Just put them where desired, and see what happens. If a safe option is desired, tuck an arcane rubric within 30 daunting pages of rubrics that allows the Words of Institution to be used at distribution. Chances are nobody will use it, but if somebody calls you on the placement within the EP, you can point to your attentiveness to others' needs and indicate the strategically-hidden rubric.
[ 13. May 2012, 21:11: Message edited by: Martin L ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
Firstly if Calvin's prayers are anything like the older prayer, they always started with adoration, every prayer did. So the adoration would have been in the prayer of confession even though nor formally in the order of service. This I suspect is important, Calvin's own spirituality is very much founded on the adoration of God.
The reason the words of institution are so strong in English non-conformity is that upto about seventy years they were the only liturgy most communion service.
The practice was to have a main preached service, coffee and then to have communion which was very simple indeed and attended only by the keen. The service consisted of the institution, the distribution and silence if the accounts I have heard are to be believed.
Jengie
[ 13. May 2012, 21:20: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
The [American Presbyterian] Book of Common Worship offers multiple options, two of which are the Words of Institution being sandwiched within the wider eucharistic prayer, and the Words of Institution being skipped during the EP and later said together with the distribution.
If Episcoterian were here in the US, I'd suggest that I doubt the majority of Presbies care about that placement at all. Just put them where desired, and see what happens. If a safe option is desired, tuck an arcane rubric within 30 daunting pages of rubrics that allows the Words of Institution to be used at distribution. Chances are nobody will use it, but if somebody calls you on the placement within the EP, you can point to your attentiveness to others' needs and indicate the strategically-hidden rubric.
That might be the case for the PCUSA. The CoS BCO has various options, but the words of institution in the EP is not one of them. Smacks too much of 'hocus pocus', I suspect.
--------------------
Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
I brought my church's copy of Celebrate God's Presence home to do some work for the bulletin, and of course this. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Sad, really.
Anyway, the UCCan has a variety of Great Thanksgiving forms and freely puts the Institution Narrative in the EP itself. This may be our Methodist side showing through.
The standard outline for EP's is: Call to Give Thanks, Thanksgiving, Song of Creation (Santcus-Benedictus), Institution Narrative, Prayer of Self-Giving, Memorial Acclamation, Epiclesis, Doxology, Amen and Lord's Prayer. The Fraction follows.
Episcoterian's outline resembles the dominant "Sermon Sandwich" of the UCCan. This was the Second Order for Public Worship in the Book of Common Order, 1932, revised as the First Order for Public Worship in the Service Book, 1969 and done over again in A Sunday Liturgy, 1984.
AIUI we have had the General Confession and Assurance of Pardon up front in the first part of the service, the Gathering, since 1932. The liturgists who liked Calvin gave it to us.
The order is:
Gathering:
Introit, Greeting, Prayer of the Day, General Confession/Kyrie, Assurance of Pardon, First Hymn
Service of the Word:
OT, Psalm, Epistle, Gospel, Children's Lesson, Hymn, Anthem, Prayer for Illumination, Sermon, Hymn, Announcements, Intercessions.
Service of the Table:
Peace, Presentation of Gifts, Great Thanksgiving, Lord's Prayer, Communion, Prayer after Communion.
Sending Forth:
Hymn, Commissioning and Benediction, Amen, Postlude.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
|
Posted
Well, having the Verba as a warrant before and outside the Eucharistic Prayer proper may be in keeping with the best Reformed tradition.
But I need to work with what I have... The Words of Institution with manual acts are currently the only Eucharistic liturgy in most of our shacks. Lucky if you have the Lord's Prayer afterwards. (And if, prior to that, you said the Apostles' Creed after the Sermon, you've pretty much reached the Everest).
Saying the WoI twice will smack of "vain repetition" (even if you alternate texts). And not having them with the manual acts will be taking away the only piece of ritual familiar to them.
So we may have the WoI-then-Prayer option as an alternate EP, but I won't risk it as the main one.
The Epiclesis will stay after the Verba, which is where it already was in my previous trials. It might wave off some of the impression that the "magic bits" happen in the WoI.
And I'll echo Byars and say the whole East vs. West controvery of spotting the Consecration in the Epiclesis or in the Institution Narrative is unnecessary. It happens in the Eucharistic Prayer, and how and when it does is a mystery to be cherished. This might as well become a Black Rubric of sorts...
--------------------
"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
I'm on Facebook too!
Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
Works for me.
How about the other flavour of hymn sandwich, the one with the sermon at the end of the service? It neatly breaks down into three parts and sends forth the people with the Word of God ringing in their ears.
Hehe, our Minister convinced the Session before I sat on it to change to this format. He liked it, it also helps that he's a first rate preacher. he thought he invented it himself. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
He wasn't one for liturgy, but then I purchased Celebrate God's Presence and our new service was the original format from the 1932 Book of Common Order. It was the United Church mainstay until 1969. I showed our Minister that he managed to reinvent the wheel. He started to listen to me about worship and liturgy after that.
Also, since our minister in on Sabbatical right now and we are taking care of ourselves, a website with weekly prayers, calls to worship, etc., a sort of Missal Lite would be helpful. When a layperson has to do the service it is nice to have a handy resource to have something "along the usual lines" to fall back on. A website would make it appear more like a suggestion than an order, as a book would.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
|
Posted
Hedley (Christian worship, 1952) traces the Hymn Sandwich with sermon in the end back to when Morning Prayer with Sermon was the main Sunday service.
In most places in Brazil, Presbyterian services seem to follow the Antecommunion-based Hymn Sandwich, not the MP-based. The almost absolute lack of Anglicans here may have something to do with it (the Daily Office, as I said elsewhere, is almost unknown in our Protestant universe).
That said, I was quite surprised earlier this year to learn that the Sermon-in-the-end is standard practice in Campinas Seminary in all Chapel services. Which unfortunately are always dry services.
So it might as well become Rite II. Or simply a MP rubric.
Even if I don't care for this model myself. I don't think the Sermon is the most important part of the service, nor that it's the one thing people should go home thinking of. ( ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) Good thing my Professor of Homiletics is not here to read me!)
--------------------
"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
I'm on Facebook too!
Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
