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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: All things to all men (and women and children)
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Is it possible to have a really effective all-age service? The adults don't want to have to behave like 2 year olds and the 2 year olds don't want to have to behave like adults. And the teenagers are put off by events aimed at both. But there are not enough staff available to hold two Sunday services at any churches but the largest of all, so you have to somehow pull it off.
If you have been to an all-age service which works well, what are the main ingredients? Or if you could improve an existing service to make it even better suited to all ages, what would you change? Or am I really asking the impossible?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
A standard Sunday morning service should actually be fine. Use an authorised, modern language liturgy, easy to understand Bible translations and appropriate hymns in various styles, e.g. a light praise chorus for the middle aged and more wrinklies, something from A&M or TEH for the teens and 20 somethings--if your lucky enough to have them, an approprate sermon that can hit the nail on the head for many people, and perhaps an monthly or fortnightly show or what have you from the Sunday School, that won't last more than five minutes. Let the choir sing an anthem every week according to the season or Sunday, varying betweeen classic, contemporary and once and a while, schmaltz.
And be welcoming to all comers. Have a couple of people to invite any newcomers to what whatever is planned after the service.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
What Mama Thomas said seems to work for us - we offer a straightforward Common Worship Order One Parish Mass (with incense, and the Catholic bits allowed by canon....) and are now finding that we sometimes have a third of the (still smallish) congo aged under 16.
The welcome is, perhaps, the most important bit - even more important than the form of the liturgy or the hymns. We take this seriously, and have today moved some pews around to form a space in the nave for young parents, toddlers and babies, where they can spread themselves around without getting under the feet of the rest of the congo, but can still see and take part in the service. Some young mums have asked for this to be done, so we hope they like it!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
It seems to me that kids don't want to just sit in pews. They want to help. Insisting on high standards for the work of servers and acolytes not only enhances the liturgy but underlines the value we attach to those who do it. Youth who are eager and competent readers or ushers should also be scheduled as regularly as anyone else, not just on special "youth Sundays". And of course, singing in the choir-- as independently as possible-- may be the most formative role of all. Doesn't research confirm that choir singing at a young age is among the best predictors of lifelong attachment to the church? But, dear Chorister, here I know that I'm just preaching to the choir, as it were.
I'd prefer a schedule such as the one I enjoyed from age 11 up: in which everyone but babies and toddlers participated in the entire family service except perhaps the sermon, which was postponed until after the liturgy, the children having left to begin Sunday school. After the sermon, the adults adjourned to their own educational coffee-hour/forum for awhile. Liturgists will complain, of course, that the sermon belongs in the service, but in practical terms I recall the arrangement working very effectively.
True, this still leaves the very small children out; although if we try to include them, at least it will be for a shorter time and without enduring/spoiling the sermon. A special area in the nave or an aisle for them with fluffy, quiet toys etc. might work given a commitment on the part of everyone to really including all ages. I wouldn't want to argue one way or another for its feasibility.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
If you have been to an all-age service which works well, what are the main ingredients? Or if you could improve an existing service to make it even better suited to all ages, what would you change? Or am I really asking the impossible?
The thing that seems to work well with my church is having two or three activities that anyone (children or adults) can dip in to and out of as they wish during the meeting. Not diversionary activities like colouring in, but thought-through activities that give an element of engagement with God; for example, writing or drawing prayers on paper boats and floating them in a bowl of water, that sort of thing.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
For God's Sake, keep the frikkin' sermon short, and the rest of the service active. It's one of the things that irks me about my own low-church Protestant upbringing—almost half the service was devoted to sitting back and listening, rather than stand-up, sit-down, fight fight fight! It's one of the things I like about Catholic worship—even on Easter, the sermon's short, but you're always doing something. Keep the kidlets active and moving, and don't give them a chance to get bored and cause mischief. I dare say it might keep your more experienced parishioners from nodding off as well.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I don't believe it is possible to please all of the people all of the time as we are all different with varying backgrounds, ages and expectations. The types of services that appealed to me as a teenager are an anathema now. I can no longer worship in a low church style and I think there is nothing wrong with that. To each his own. I'm happy for the kids to go to the rock concert style of service, but I wish to worship in a more traditional style and I have moved from low Anglican to Anglo-Catholic. If a church can only do one service, then maybe it should be the one that suits the majority, but some of the congregation may leave and go elsewhere.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
It's a long time ago, and I may be a weirdo, but I remember in the 60s going to Sunday School (in those days a separate service) and once a special family communion, and I was instinctively aware that this was not the Real Thing. What I wanted was grown up worship.
Then I was confirmed at 13 and received communion. This was so overwhelming, that I went whenever possible to the adult service.
I suspect that "Children's Services" are not so much popular with children as with parents and adults who do not want the challenges of grown up religion.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I post tentatively, having no experience or expertise other than as a man in a pew, but ISTM that Alogon's suggestions about giving youngsters real things to do make sense. Depends of course on your tradition and the number/age of kids involved, but certainly reading, being an usher, intercessions, membership of (main) choir/ music group/ worship band/whatever, would seem to be things that could be done from a fairly early age. And then of course if it's your tradition there are all the alb/surplice jobs- serving, boatboy/girl, and so on- some of which you might be able to manage without, strictly speaking, but which might be worth having even primarily as a means of involving more people.
I suppose you'd need someone to put in the work of training / overseeing kids in these roles but then it's an investment- all of these are useful roles which, apart from anything else,can be continued into adult life.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I agree that is A Very Good Thing to involve children in the liturgy as much as possible by giving them specific jobs and roles......BUT...
..at our place we have a real problem with (a) never knowing from one week to the next who's actually going to turn up, and (b) people who turn up quite regularly, but only after the service has started (it's not unknown for our congregation to almost double in numbers between the Entrance Hymn and the Gospel).
I don't mind the people in (b) so much - it's the (apparently) complete lack of planning of daily life and/or commitment to the church (and to its Lord) of people (a) that bugs me. It's common in modern society, I know - talk to any Scout leader or club Secretary - but grrrrr.......
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
I think that it is possible to interest all ages in a parish eucharist by doing as others have suggested and not attempting some kind of lowest common denominator stuff. If you accept that there will not be silence when a congregation includes children, and embrace that rather than wincing at every little voice, that's a great start. Give the children something concrete to do, such as taking up the offertory and/or elements, have them as acolytes if they are "regulars", provide meaningful colouring sheets, or similar activities. Have a box of inviting and clean toys for the smallest. Encourage everyone to participate by lighting candles as part of the intercessions, or using oil to make the sign of the cross. Have something people can interact with such as tying prayers onto branches. Don't make it just a spectator sport. These are the sorts of things we have tried.
What doesn't work, for us, is to expect people with children to feel welcome if we don't make that explicit. Many people instinctively feel that they need to shush their children as they might in a library in the bad old days.
Keep it short and to the point, have songs that are not too ancient or too trendy. Make a point of welcoming visitors and keep on welcoming them at the altar.
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas Aus
Shipmate
# 15869
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Posted
The Anglican Church of Australia Liturgical Commission has prepared some resources for use in the eucharist when children are present. They can be found at: Liturgical Commission
Posts: 375 | From: Hunter Valley NSW | Registered: Sep 2010
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
We do Mass. The kiddies have to take their chances the same as everyone else. Some love it; some are a bit lost, but it all seems to work out in the end.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
It seems to me that kids don't want to just sit in pews. They want to help. Insisting on high standards for the work of servers and acolytes not only enhances the liturgy but underlines the value we attach to those who do it. Youth who are eager and competent readers or ushers should also be scheduled as regularly as anyone else...
I just want to pop into this thread to say that this past Sunday, at Baltimore's flagship Anglocatholic parish, the solemn mass was served by three acolytes: one in his 20s, and two others who certainly were no older than six. I would give my acolyte master's eyeteeth for that six-year-old girl who held the gospel book.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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the Ænglican
Shipmate
# 12496
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Posted
Actually the older one is 9 and I'm flattered that you think I'm still in my 20's! I saw some visitors and usually greet them but I had to dash the girls off to a track meet.
Glad to have you here!! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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The subject of religious ceremonial is one which has a special faculty for stirring strong feeling. --W. H. Frere
Posts: 177 | From: Baltimore-ish | Registered: Apr 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Unlike other churches, the UCCan never lost its sense of "one service for everybody". In my church, a rural one-point charge, one service is what we can manage.
Yes to varied hymns. The Children's lesson takes place after the first hymn and then they go down to Sunday School for the rest of the service, which is standard practice in the UCCan. Baptisms take place before they go down.
Older kids are asked to help out, to read Lessons and other things but our Sunday School is very young, mostly under-8 and with a few toddlers.
The Minister was called to this charge specifically because he was good with children. The Sunday School was asked during the search process what they wanted in a minister, they replied "We want a minister who knows our names." Our last minister was good but not knowing names was one of his faults and he wasn't a kids minister. Interestingly when searching through the JNAC reports (church profiles) he looked at us and tossed us aside, then his wife saw our profile and noticed the request for a minister with a talent for children. She put it back in front of him and the rest is history.
I've never been a fan of specific "kids services" because they're mostly beyond my experience. With a Protestant Hymn Sandwich they seem to have little point.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
One essential item which seems to be in most churches now, but was almost unheard of a generation ago, is the children's corner. It's a very useful catch-all as, with the best will in the world, you can't provide activities especially for very young children during the whole of the service. With a children's corner, they can take part in the sections of the service more relevant to them, but at other times when it all gets too much (which may vary according to the child), there is a special area in the church to which they can go and do kiddy stuff.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AristonAstuanax:
For God's Sake, keep the frikkin' sermon short, and the rest of the service active. It's one of the things that irks me about my own low-church Protestant upbringing—almost half the service was devoted to sitting back and listening, rather than stand-up, sit-down, fight fight fight! It's one of the things I like about Catholic worship—even on Easter, the sermon's short, but you're always doing something. Keep the kidlets active and moving, and don't give them a chance to get bored and cause mischief. I dare say it might keep your more experienced parishioners from nodding off as well.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
If you haven't struck oil in ten minutes, stop boring!
Also, in places where there are "special" books or altar cards, let the literate children flip through them/see them sometime. Likewise with special equipment, such as thuribles (cool, of course).
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
15 minutes is the UCCan norm.
Children's corners are unknown to us, that's why we have Sunday School.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
One difficulty with not having one service for everyone is that one often looses the kids in the transition between childhood and adulthood. The knack seems to be to get them out of Sunday School, into the main service, and in some sense integrated before they get old enough to label the whole church things as a 'kiddie thing to be got rid of.' According to my wife, in the case of boys this has to be done "before their balls drops and their brains turn to mush."
As a result, I have always been a little bit wary of keeping the kiddies in Sunday school too long. At one stage we had the very small children in SS during the service, the 7 to 12s were in church, but had their Sunday school time before hand, and the Confirmation age kids were in church and then taught by the rector on weekdays. The results were mixed, but better than the previous system which kicked them from Sunday School - geared towards the 8/9 y.o. kids - into the main service with very little preparation at age 14. We lost a lot that way and the whole things was intolerable.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
One essential item which seems to be in most churches now, but was almost unheard of a generation ago, is the children's corner.
I'm sure John Betjeman mentions it in the introduction to his Guide to English Parish Churches published in the 50s.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, I think he does, but tho' I haven't got the book to hand, IIRC what he is describing sounds more like a children's chapel than the sort of toy-strewn (I don't mean that disparagingly- these places can be very useful) space you tend to see nowadays.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
One difficulty with not having one service for everyone is that one often looses the kids in the transition between childhood and adulthood...
I have always been a little bit wary of keeping the kiddies in Sunday school too long.
And if you pull the "youth" out of adult church into a whole different style of worship/music/participation, what do they have to go back to as adults? Adult church is foreign territory.
I expect the churches segregating teens into a whole separate program will either lose them entirely or the teens will grow up and change adult church into perpetuating whatever church was for them as teens.
Most churches around here put musical teenagers in a separate youth band with guitar music, they are forbidden to join adult choir until age 18, maybe because of the "safe place for kids" rules that require training for all adults who work with kids? As adults they'll demand what to them is church music -- guitars, not choral anthems or organs.
Churches that segregate teens away from adults into a whole different kind of church experience are creating their own institutional future to look & feel different than today's adult church. Maybe some of the changes are good, maybe some are not good, but I'm not seeing awareness that what the kids experience today as "going to church" is what they'll expect and insist on tomorrow. I'd like to see more awareness that what we do with the youth today is what the adult church will become tomorrow, and head - wherever direction - intentionally.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Until the late 18th century, or early 19th century, young children were expected to be christianised by their parents, not by 'the church'. Also, because there was no such thing as the teenager, there was no need to worry about having specific events for the 'young people'. When children were mature enough to get something out of the church service - and presumably also to contribute - that's where they would be.
So it could be said that we've created more problems for ourselves by expecting church to segregate people off by age. I suppose the decline of the evening service also makes things difficult for some parents. I understand that in some communities, one parent would attend in the morning while the other looked after the small children, then that parent would go in the evening.
I wonder if the invention of childhood as a distinct period has also addd to this problem? In many cultures, even today, children have been expected to know how to be silent, how to extract what they can from the adult world, without getting bored and noisy (i.e. they're expected' to be seen and not heard'). In the West today, self-control isn't expected of children; instead, they're often the focus of attention.
These various developments must have contributed to the problem of what to do with children and teenagers in church. Plus, the ageing of congregations makes for churches that are geared towards the middle aged or the elderly, who then have to 'make concessions' if they want to be attractive to younger people. But churches that were natually mixed would see a variety of elements as normal.
The logical extension of the targeted approach is the planting of whole churches for particular demographics. Maybe we ought to plant 'children's churches', in that case! Or, some would say, since fathers are so important in the transmission of faith in a family, we need far more churches aimed at men with children (rather than churches that appeal to clergymen)....
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
We do Mass. The kiddies have to take their chances the same as everyone else. Some love it; some are a bit lost, but it all seems to work out in the end.
This would be my preference as well, but the cultural expectations of those who come to church in my parish seem to require Sunday School, which meets during the first half of the service and which is dismissed around the Offertory to join the adults.
Personally, I would rather the kids be with the rest of the congregation through the entire Mass, and if they get restive they can be taken outside for a walk around the grounds or whatever else they need. But many adults seem to feel that they should be able to have an uninterrupted Worship Experience, and that the noisiness of someone else's children (or the need of their own for parental attention) is an imposition on that experience, and possibly even the ruin of it. So we make Sunday School available.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Unfortunately one of the problems that we have in traditional churches is that we are expected to embrace the cultural norms of the 1950s - which did a hell of a lot to create the failures of the 1960s onwards! One of the 'cultural norms' that we are lumbered with that does not really work is spinning the kids off into Sunday school so their parents can have an 'uninterupted church experience.' This has problems two ways. Firstly, the liturgy does not get etched in their brains early enough in life, and secondly, the parents are no longer a full part of the kiddos Christian formation.
My compromise with this situation is to have the smaller kids in Sunday school up to the offertory, and the older ones - 11 upwards - in Church. This is not ideal, but it beats keeping them in Sunday School until their 14/15, by which time there is a god chance you have lost them.
I tend to ignore the whole 'teenager thing' with regards to planning the liturgy. My own recollection of being a teenager was that it was an 'infantilizing' experience with adults making asses of themselves in order to fit in with an imagined teen culture.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Some of the best churches I've come across recognise that families - and children - are different, so they provide a variety of responses, then people can choose what's best for their situation. There's nothing worse than being told your child HAS to be put in the creche!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Some of the best churches I've come across recognise that families - and children - are different, so they provide a variety of responses, then people can choose what's best for their situation. There's nothing worse than being told your child HAS to be put in the creche!
I have seen the crèche being very strongy promoted mid-sermon to the one couple that hadn't deposited before the service. Inappropriate and embarrassing!
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AristonAstuanax:
For God's Sake, keep the frikkin' sermon short, and the rest of the service active. It's one of the things that irks me about my own low-church Protestant upbringing—almost half the service was devoted to sitting back and listening, rather than stand-up, sit-down, fight fight fight! It's one of the things I like about Catholic worship—even on Easter, the sermon's short, but you're always doing something. Keep the kidlets active and moving, and don't give them a chance to get bored and cause mischief. I dare say it might keep your more experienced parishioners from nodding off as well.
Agree with this. The other thing is keep everyone involved by asking questions and giving them stuff to do etc. But real stuff, not stuff that’s there to keep the adults entertained whilst the children are “cute”.
Accept that family services need to contain something for everyone and there will be bits that you like more than others … And be grateful that in most places they often don’t happen that often.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
... The adults don't want to have to behave like 2 year olds ...
Ever been to a PCC meeting?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
... The adults don't want to have to behave like 2 year olds ...
Ever been to a PCC meeting?
Ain't that the truth.
<Continues wiping coffee off the keyboard!>
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
Our own Dave Walker has a solution.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Pity people who don't get the paper version have to wait until next week to get behind the Subscriber wall.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
My old church had a "Time for the Young" every week. It was usually totally inaudible, as they had all the children come up to the front, and was basically an excruciating 10-minute break from what could otherwise be a good service. It seems sometimes it can be a good rule to just give a sermon that any 8-year-old could understand; after all, some in the congregation might appreciate the clarity.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Pity people who don't get the paper version have to wait until next week to get behind the Subscriber wall.
They seem to have forgotten to put a block on this when it was first posted (I wondered about that!). I could open it then, but I can't now. I apologize for sending everyone to a link that most can't open yet.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
My old church had a "Time for the Young" every week. It was usually totally inaudible, as they had all the children come up to the front, and was basically an excruciating 10-minute break from what could otherwise be a good service. It seems sometimes it can be a good rule to just give a sermon that any 8-year-old could understand; after all, some in the congregation might appreciate the clarity.
We are subject to this each and every week. The council is dominated by a family-friendly agenda, so there can be no eliminating of this. I could live with it more easily if the pastor would realize that the children's sermon notches time away fron the Adult Sermon, but he doesn't, and we end up with 35-40 minutes of sermon a week. It is a battle I have tried to fight and lost, so I just watch things crash and burn each week as people get bored and start checking Facebook, reconciling their checkbook, leafing through the hymnal, etc.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
The trouble with the Family Friendly agenda when it takes over is that it is friendly to only a certain type of family. General those with kids under 9. It also tends to be positively hostile to those of us who are single, empty-nesters, families with aliens - erm, teenagers - living among them, etc..
I think the idea of having a kid friendly teaching slot in another part of the church has a lot going for it. You could do a lot with the kiddies whilst Herr Pfarrer is putting in his 35 minutes...
PD
[ 12. May 2012, 17:50: Message edited by: PD ]
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My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
My old church had a "Time for the Young" every week. It was usually totally inaudible, as they had all the children come up to the front, and was basically an excruciating 10-minute break from what could otherwise be a good service.
That sounds really weird. A pity there can't be something for the adults to do (eg. guided reading, organ voluntary to listen to) during those 10 minutes. If the children's talk / activity is all but inaudible to any but the children, then why keep them in the main body of the church at all? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Desert Daughter
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# 13635
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Posted
Can anyone tell me why Christianity is the only major world faith where they try to tailor worship services to the tastes children or teens?
Might it be that we've lost the sense of the holiness of what's going on in a service?
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Can anyone tell me why Christianity is the only major world faith where they try to tailor worship services to the tastes children or teens?
Might it be that we've lost the sense of the holiness of what's going on in a service?
Perhaps it is because, for the bulk of the last two millenia, Christianity was something people "did" in churches and monasteries. The lack of home practices and rituals that most other religions have certainly must play a role in this. In order to keep our young connected with the faith, we have to trick them into going to church. If the faith and ritual practices were more apparent at home, I imagine church attendance would be easier to encourage, and tradition [at home and at church, courtesy of the traditional liturgy] would be more respected.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Can anyone tell me why Christianity is the only major world faith where they try to tailor worship services to the tastes children or teens?
Might it be that we've lost the sense of the holiness of what's going on in a service?
I don't know about what other traditions do, but I suspect you may well have a point. As to whether we have lost all sense of the holy, I think it's more a matter of underestimating children's or adolescents' abilities to grasp the numinous. Teenagers can find the sacred in things like lectio divina, walking the labyrinth, writing prayers together, although it might take a patient adult to guide them into these things. Children engage in worship quite readily, although for very little ones it takes some meeting them partway. Children absolutely have an inner sense of the sacred, although settling into the adult liturgy takes some effort and some risk (by which I mean parents who sit in the back of the church where they think the kids won't "bother" anyone rather than sitting up front where the children can actually see the colors, movement etc). I've seen children make the connection in the "big church" after they've had a chance to (for example) learn to set up a child-sized altar by choosing the seasonally-correct colored cloth, light candles that are within their reach, and learn the responses used in the liturgy. It takes catechesis and it takes, as others have pointed out, letting children and adolescents take on liturgical roles of increasing responsibility. I am probably more inclined than others on this thread to make allowances in the liturgy for the presence of children and adolescents (in ways that I'm sure would be discounted in some quarters as "dumbing down"), but it isn't due to forgetting the sacred. Not in this case at least.
(Cross-posted with Martin L, who makes an excellent point about faith practices in the home.)
[ 13. May 2012, 02:59: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
The idea of "tricking" a child into going to church--I'm sorry but it just appalls me. I'm guessing that the reason for state of affairs is that many of our Western cultures have become so non-authoritative that parents and the community no longer have what it takes to-- impel ?-- children past, say, ten, to go to church in the same way we impel them to brush their teeth, use deodorant, go to school, etc. The social expectation is just not there, nor the parental authority--and maybe a lot of adults harbor the idea that church IS optional, as opposed to (say) tooth brushing? In which case it's no surprise that our kids pick up on our ambivalence, and realize they can get away with opting out.
Whatever it is, we're stuck with the culture we've got, at least till we change it. Which will have to happen one family at a time, bleah. I'm working on mine. And maybe you'll think I don't know what I'm talking about, since at this point a raised eyebrow and the question "Are you planning to stop wearing underwear too?" is enough to send my kid grumbling to church/piano practice/the orthodontist.
Anyway, there's another, much more positive reason why Christianity caters for children in a way nobody else does, and that's because Christ brought them into the center, out of the margins, as nobody else has ever done. In ancient times and in most human affairs today children simply don't matter until they get old enough to be counted as adults. If they live that long, fine; we'll admit them to important affairs then. But before then, they are of no value.
Judaism of course dealt with this differently, with the huge emphasis on infant initiation and child education in the Law of the Lord. Christ extended that to the point that he shocked the disciples, by making it clear that God values children NOW and not for the future value they may some day have.
Having had our human universe rearranged this way, it's no wonder we fuss over what to do about the children. And we're right to do so. Even the "tricking" idea, much as I loathe it, has this good thing going for it--it sees the huge importance of children being connected to God and does what it can to make this happen.
[ 13. May 2012, 03:08: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Can anyone tell me why Christianity is the only major world faith where they try to tailor worship services to the tastes children or teens?
Might it be that we've lost the sense of the holiness of what's going on in a service?
Buggeredifiknow on the first question, but I am glad they did not take that approach where I grew up. I learned the old liturgy (1662 BCP) as a curious kid of 10-12 that the church authorities did not dragoon into going to the "prescribed age appropriate activities." Following a regime change I got some heavy pressure to conform, and, as a result of having to deal with my peers, rather than the adults I preferred to worship with, I did not go near nor by the place for three years. My first serious girlfriend got me back to church and taught me the perfect dodge for avoiding the dreaded 'age appropriate activities' - join the choir!
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
[QB...I am glad they did not take that approach where I grew up. I learned the old liturgy (1662 BCP) as a curious kid of 10-12 that the church authorities did not dragoon into going to the "prescribed age appropriate activities."[/QB]
Thanks to the church of my youth, I learned to read a certain style of Gothic type. I also read the Augsburg Confession many times over, as it appeared in the front of the hymnal. Rather than spending my time wishing for a more me-friendly service, I spent my time trying to learn the service, and later trying to improve it!
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Cryptic
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# 16917
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Posted
We have had some varied success with integrating an occasional "Children's Service" into our 9.00am sung Eucharist at St Roof's. It's not necessarily an all-age service, but it can be very much a case of trying to be all things to all people, and it does take an amount of graciousness to achieve this. There is also a good element of compromise needed, as any service with children has to have some level of being accessible to children.
In no order of priority, here are some thoughts based on our experience that might be helpful.
Things that have worked:
Giving it a go - It's a bit daunting to start a new initiative, either as a new service, or something to fit within an existing service. You won't get it right straight away, if ever. Have a go, make some mistakes and learn from them.
Get children and young people involved - Older children and teenagers can do the bible readings, younger children can read intercessions (kid-friendly language needed here, which doesn't necessarily dilute the beauty or meaning of the intercessions). Little ones can help with the offertory, and make great sidespeople and welcomers as the congregation arrive (never underestimate the power of the cute factor!). A few of our Sunday School children are also servers. Make sure that they are rostered on the day of your children's service. Jobs also give the children the opportunity to meet and interact with other adults in the parish, suddenly they are out of Sunday school and under the watchful eye of the head server or the other rostered helpers. Use the adults to supervise the children in their jobs if necessary - eg there's nothing wrong with the sidespeople quietly shadowing the children who are taking up the offertory.
Preparation - As our children's services are only occasional, we make sure that everybody knows that they are coming up. Get people involved in the jobs early, the readers and intercessors need their readings a week in advance to be able to practice and do them confidently. If possible, get the children doing the offertory to have a practice the week before.
Preparation II - on the first Sunday of each month we have a Children's Eucharist downstairs in our children's chapel. Children act as servers, Gospeller and Intercessors at this service. It can be a bit chaotic, but it is also great "off-Broadway" preparation that makes them feel at home in the "Big Church".
Sermon - It needs to be child focused, a clever preacher can reach a wide age range. This does not necessarily exclude the grown-ups. I have had many comments after children's services that hearing the message in a simple way has given them insight they they might not otherwise have had ( and don't forget Mark 10:15 ) . There will be some in the congregation that want a grown-up sermon and I understand this, but that's where grace comes in.
Inclusiveness - invite anybody that is interested to do a job. If you get knocked over in the rush, double up or create some jobs if you can. Some of the younger or shyer children might not be confident, so don't force them. Once they have seen other children doing a job, they are often keen to have a go next time. Get families to sit up the front (very un-Anglican) and be part of the action. Some parents will bring tiny children or small toddlers. They obviously can't join in, but it is a great message to them that children are welcome in your church. Have a kid-friendly space at the back of your church, but encourage them to sit up the front with everybody else. Put up with the extra noise and chattering, it is, after all, a service for children (and there's that grace again...).
Thank the congregation - We are truly blessed that our congregation has enthusiastically welcomed children into the service. Acknowledge that, and thank them for it.
Things that haven't worked:
Frequency - We haven't had these services often enough to make them a habit. When we do them, they sometimes feel like they need a bit too much preparation. Increased frequency would make them more familiar, and so easier to prepare.
Hymns & Music - in a church with a strong music tradition, changing hymns has been problematic. Not sure of the answer here but I'm working on it. Getting the children to make some music I think would be best.
Sermon - I think that for each child-friendly sermon that we have had, we've had an equally unfriendly one. At some of our early attempts at a children's service, there was some tensions with the preacher over what was needed, in those cases the children just had to sit through the adult sermon. For all the things that i have suggested above, most of them can be flexible but a child-friendly sermon is essential.
PD and Martin L - your childhood experiences sound similar to mine. As an 8/9/10 year old I often sat with my grandmother during Morning Prayer as both of my parents and my brother were in the choir. Incomprehensible at first, it didn't take long before I started to absorb and understand what was going on - it was all BCP back then. From about 12, I was in the choir too. Our parish rector was a bog-ordinary preacher, so during sermons I would read the other bits of the prayer book. I don't with watering-down of liturgy, and would never discourage children or young people from attending or participating in a full service. This might seem to be arguing against what I have said above - but instead I think that an all-age or children's service is something different, it is about welcoming and inclusion.
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Illegitimi non carborundum
Posts: 225 | From: Sydney | Registered: Feb 2012
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
I was brought up going to church twice on Sundays. I was in both the morning and evening choirs, and I started being a server when I was eight. For me I never took to the old language, and was glad as an adult to see that having been dispensed with. I found the old language off-putting as a child, and still do.
It was being in a choir as a child that, I believe got me going back to church as an adult, when I joined the local church's choir.
The church I now attend doesn't do any service or anything for the children. It's straight-up divine liturgy. There's still plenty of kids, though. They seem to enjoy lighting candles, watching what's going on and touching things (like when they kiss icons, or touch candle stands). They do also tend to dance during the singing (they associate singing with dance, I presume) and play with toy cars.
I think, to add to Lamb Chopped there are two issues: Do those who bring children to church impress upon them enough the naturalness of doing to church? Irregardless of whether kiddie services are done, are they made to feel welcome? In my orthodox church I would say that they are. I knew a church where the priest was well into "children friendly" stuff like having theatre instead of the reading of the Gospel, but the priest (who dominated proceedings) wasn't actually a friendly guy.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
We are on something of a learning curve here, as more young families come to us on Sundays. Our OK Korral (aka area of cleared pews, carpet etc. for small members of the congo and their adults) has been very well received (it was quite crowded yesterday morning). I would love to get more people - young and old alike - involved in active participation in the liturgy, and suspect that this is likely to be an ongoing work!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Is your OK Korral at the front or back (or side) of the church? Can people see, or take part in the service or is the view blocked?
There was a time, before the Vestry Group started meeting, when the service was piped through into the Vestry, so that parents, who had taken small children out, could still hear what was going on, and take part that way.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cryptic:
... Our parish rector was a bog-ordinary preacher, so during sermons I would read the other bits of the prayer book.
Yes, that's the great thing about the BCP- lots and lots of stuff in there to catch the imagination. And if all else fails get them working out the date of Easter- keeps the whole family quiet for hours, that one!
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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