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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW 2381: Our Savior Lutheran Church, Pagosa Springs CO, USA
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
It seems to be that the bad review was only to do with the bee in the bonnet over the Missouri Synod "closed communion" policy
I guess that was the reason for the "cold and dour" label. I can't see anything else that would justify that description Although most mw reports are very subjective, this seemed more so
link to report
[ 23. May 2012, 04:35: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
I was confused too. One minute the church is friendly and the welcome "warm and sincere". The next minute its "cold and dour".
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
The welcome was warm and sincere. The worship experience was cold and dour in my opinion. Sorry, but it was.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I didn't suppose the perceived coldness of the worship was to do with the closed communion policy of the LC-MS, which is well known. It reminds me of a friend's description many years ago of the early mass at a TEC parish where he said the priest entered grimly in from the sacristy, projecting the attitude that, "OK, we're here to do Mass, dammit."
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
The closed communion policy had something to do with it, I admit. But contributing to my opinion were the absence of an exchange of peace (which I forgot to mention in the report), the weak organ support for congregational singing, the difficult-to-sing nature of the service music, and the segue immediately into Sunday school without an intervening intermission for refreshments.
There can be no question that the pastor knew I was a visitor. Instead of (or in addition to) exchanging pleasantries, could he not have taken me aside and had a conversation with me something like:
P. Did you want to take communion with us this morning?
A. Yes, I had hoped to be able to.
P. Are you a baptized Christian?
A. Yes, I am.
P. You know, we as Lutherans believe that Christ is really and truly present in the eucharistic bread and wine. Is that your belief too?
A. Yes, it is.
P. And we believe that Christ gave up his body and shed his blood for all of us. Do you believe that?
A. Yes, I do.
P. And we also believe that in order to receive the eucharist worthily, you should be at peace with God and with your fellow man. Do you feel that you are?
A. Yes, pastor. I am a sinner, but I am sorry for my sins and I trust in God's mercy to forgive me.
P. Welcome, then, to our table, dear Miss Amanda.
The above would have taken all of 60 seconds and would have been far more appropriate than "I'll bet you're glad to exchange the heat of Arizona for the coolness of Colorado, aren't you?"
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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uffda
Shipmate
# 14310
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Posted
As a Lutheran from the other side of the aisle (ELCA), the one thing I found really surprising about the report, was the weakness in singing the liturgy. Miss Amanda's feelings about Lutheran Liturgical Music notwithstanding, Divine Service 1 in the Lutheran Service Book is,
IIRC, the Hillert setting, which has been the principal setting in the Lutheran Book of Worship
(green book) since 1978, and one of the principal settings in Lutheran Worship (the immediate predecessor of the LSB) since 1982.
I can well understand that the setting might be formidible to someone not used to Lutheran Liturgy, but, unless THIS congregation was unused to it, I can't imagine it being poorly sung.
The "one, holy, Christian, and apostolic church"
is a paricular idiosyncratic wording for Lutherans, dating back to Luther himself, who
translated it that way. This usage was not finally abandoned in the ELCA until the 1978 book
where the word "catholic" appeared in the text of the creed, while the word "Christian" appeared in a footnote. One of the reasons for the Green Book's failure to win Missouri Synod backing was their reluctance to go against the word "Christian" in the creed.
There is ongoing debate within the Missouri Synod about its Communion policy and whether it should be best described as "closed" or "close."
Often the decision is up to the pastor, and since Miss Amanda noted the pastor was a "vacancy" pastor, perhaps a "don't rock the boat during the interim" policy was in effect.
But overall the worship described in Miss Amanda's report seems to ring true with some of the comments on "High Church Lutheranism," a recent thread here in Ecclesiantics.
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Invincibly ignorant and planning to stay that way!
Posts: 1031 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by uffda:
There is ongoing debate within the Missouri Synod about its Communion policy and whether it should be best described as "closed" or "close."
(Former LCMS) That distinction always irritated me; it seems like doublespeak. If you are telling certain people they can't participate fully, it's closed.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by uffda:
There is ongoing debate within the Missouri Synod about its Communion policy and whether it should be best described as "closed" or "close."
Often the decision is up to the pastor, and since Miss Amanda noted the pastor was a "vacancy" pastor, perhaps a "don't rock the boat during the interim" policy was in effect.
Well, you see, the thing is, the service handout (which I didn't save, so I'm not quoting verbatim) had a paragraph that basically read: "We don't want to discourage anyone from receiving the eucharist [that is an exact quote as I remember it], but our beliefs regarding the eucharist are in keeping with those set forth in the Small Catechism, which we encourage you to read. Visitors to our church are encouraged to speak with the pastor regarding the reception of communion. We appreciate your understanding of our policy in this regard."
Now, admittedly, I didn't speak with the pastor, but I don't think I'm being unusually peevish (although that particular vice is not absent from my personal catalog of vices) in expecting the pastor to have taken the initiative to approach me on the subject, as I mentioned in my earlier post.
So far as the service music goes, I don't dispute its heritage, and I am grateful to uffda for setting it out. But I've been to many Lutheran services, including Evangelical, Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Synod, and I've always felt that the music presented unnecessary difficulties for a congregation unschooled in the art of singing. And Miss Amanda is not exactly unschooled in these areas. Plus, at this particular service, the fact that the organist kept the volume too low didn't help things along at all. The gentleman sitting behind me (who had patted me on the shoulder) was having a particularly tough time of it, as were the few other voices that I heard. I simply gave up after a while, as did most others within my range of hearing.
[ 23. May 2012, 19:27: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I would like to pose a somewhat tangential question about difficult-to-sing Lutheran service music and hymnody. This may be a regional peculiarity of Lutheranism in Texas, but at both what are now ELCA congregations and at LC-MS ones, I have experienced hymns being sung at sonic speed as a matter of course, and sometimes the service music being very speedy as well. I wonder if this might have been another aspect of the worship that Miss Amanda didn't make explicit, and irrespective of that, whether others with wider geographical experiences of Lutheran worship than I would be able to comment on their experiences, if any, of lightening speed Lutheran singing.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I have experienced hymns being sung at sonic speed as a matter of course, and sometimes the service music being very speedy as well.
That wasn't my impression, but let's see what others have to say.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
The odd times I have worshipped with LCMS congregations the musical pace has tended to be "seam-up military medium" - to use a cricketing analogy. If anything they have erred on the side of being just a tiny bit too slow. However, all my experience of LCMS has been on the Left Coast - CA and OR. On the while though I prefer a wee bit too slow to too fast - especially if I am trying to navigate something only half familiar like the isorhythmic version of 'A mighty fortress.'
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I am trying to navigate something only half familiar like the isorhythmic version of 'A mighty fortress.'
PD
You mean the proper version? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
If anything they have erred on the side of being just a tiny bit too slow. However, all my experience of LCMS has been on the Left Coast - CA and OR.
In the Middle, I haven't found any consistency to it. It all depends on the organist and the congregation.
Here (large PDF warning) is a sampler of the Lutheran Service Book, which does include the Divine Service Setting 1 that is in question.
It is (perhaps unfortunately for us) one of the more singable settings, and is a setting that is held in common with the ELCA. The Gloria is a bit tricky, but I'd be surprised if it weren't replaced with This is the Feast in Eastertide.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
The Gloria is a bit tricky, but I'd be surprised if it weren't replaced with This is the Feast in Eastertide.
Yes, it was.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
The Gloria is a bit tricky, but I'd be surprised if it weren't replaced with This is the Feast in Eastertide.
Yes, it was.
That setting of This is the Feast is probably our only one that has managed to escape the confines of Lutheranism and make its way into an array of other hymnals, including H82 and a couple of Catholic ones.
Was it more the Kyrie, Alleluia, and Offertory that were challenging? (Sorry for trying to pick your brain, but I am in a position to pick the liturgical setting, and this information would be very beneficial to me if you are willing to share.)
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
The Gloria is a bit tricky, but I'd be surprised if it weren't replaced with This is the Feast in Eastertide.
Yes, it was.
That is a beautiful arrangement.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
That setting of This is the Feast is probably our only one that has managed to escape the confines of Lutheranism. . . .
Was it more the Kyrie, Alleluia, and Offertory that were challenging? (Sorry for trying to pick your brain, but I am in a position to pick the liturgical setting, and this information would be very beneficial to me if you are willing to share.)
Yes, I've sung This is the Feast in Episcopal churches and didn't like it there either.
I would not presume to suggest which settings you should choose for your own congregation, especially since I am not Lutheran. If Lutherans have been brought up singing comfortably what I, as an outsider, consider unsingable, then let them go on doing so.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
Are you sure that communion was that closed? I would have made enquiries afterwards if the directions were too complicated there and then. Otherwise, don't ask: don't tell and go forward and present yourself.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Are you sure that communion was that closed?
My read of the service leaflet was that pastoral approval was required.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I saw there were no servers. Were lay people used to read the lessons or the biddings for the intercessions?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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uffda
Shipmate
# 14310
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Posted
It often takes people by surprise when they encounter this issue of closed communion in a Protestant Church. But the LCMS very much see intercommunion as the goal of dogmatic unity, not a means to attain it. The difficulty with this approach is in determining when there is ENOUGH unity to make intercommunion possible.
This approach is very similar to the Roman Catholic approach, but the typical Catholic parish is so large that you wouldn't necessarily see it played out at the communion rail. The typical Lutheran parish is much smaller, where visitors are more easily evident. This could lead to unfortunate confrontations at the communion rail should a visitor present him or herself without first speaking with the pastor.
So I think Miss Amanda did the right thing by not going up for communion.
However, given what Miss Amanda remembers about the words in the bulletin, I might have advised her to make the approach in talking to the pastor, and not to wait for the pastor to make the first move.
Since the ELCA is on the other side of this issue, I usually go out of my way to make sure people know that they are welcome to commune, if we are having a service with a lot of visitors.
(Baptism, Confirmation, funeral, etc.)But I know that I wouldn't have time to seek out individual visitors before the service to tell them personally that they are welcome.
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Invincibly ignorant and planning to stay that way!
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I saw there were no servers. Were lay people used to read the lessons or the biddings for the intercessions?
No. The vicar did it all.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Ah. I have no regular and informed experience of Lutheran worship, so it's not for me to comment. I was wondering whether your concern was with the denomination (or its variety) rather than the specific congregation.
I wouldn't expect obvious individual lay participation at an Orthodox service, nor to receive communion, and it wouldn't bother me.
But no lay voices except for the (possibly feeble) hymn singing and no peace does sound a bit unnecessarily chilly in a liturgical church.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
What is a "vicar" in the Lutheran world? How is a vicar different from a pastor?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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uffda
Shipmate
# 14310
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Posted
A vicar is a seminary student doing a year of pastoral work prior to ordination. Kind of like a Roman Catholic transitional deacon.
[ 25. May 2012, 21:03: Message edited by: uffda ]
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Invincibly ignorant and planning to stay that way!
Posts: 1031 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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PRESBY DUDE
Apprentice
# 16035
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Posted
May a humble, unworthy Presby weigh in on this discussion? I think some posters will tongue-lash one of my comments, but I'll take it without a temper tantrum or a nervous breakdown.
First off, I've always truly enjoyed the Mystery Worshipper posts, and Amanda B Reckondwythe's additions are especially fine. While I don't know the fine personage, Miss Amanda sounds like an interesting person to have coffee and pastry with---or, more gramatically, a person with whom to have coffee and pastry. Either way---as long as there's pastry!
Without meaning to offend Missouri Synod folk (and I have several good friends who are members of that good-sized, active denomination), I firmly object to their notion of closed communion. After all, SAYS WHO? Did the Lord Jesus suggest at the Last Supper that we check denomination affiliation and belief systems? Nope. He commanded that we "Do this in remembrance of me".
The Christian should certainly take the reception of Holy Communion seriously (so Paul informs us in his epistles), but it's his/her own decision about whether to participate. At the risk of being verbally abused by other posters, on trips to London I have many times approached for Communion reception at Westminster Cathedral (Roman Catholic) without ecclesiastical permission. I consider it a personal decision. I don't much care what Pope Benedict XVI says about the matter either. I spend a scant amount of time worrying about his pronouncements. I do approach for Communion in a spirit of reverence. After all, Catholics and Missouri Synod Lutherans would be cordially welcomed to receive Communion in my Presbyterian congregation, if they desired. We have our Presby faults, but we don't slam down the Communion trays and say, "No, approach ye not our table. If thou approachest it, thou shalt be damned!" After all, folks, this is 2012.
(Oh, I will hear about this post, won't I?)
Furthermore, the omniscient Miss Amanda - noted for her astute comments - is quite right: There is indeed a dour element in the worship and the music of the LCMS. I remember my local town's LCMS church in the Sixties, which I thought took the Christian faith in a very intense, serious manner. There wasn't much joy in their worship.
I've visited six or eight LCMS churches in more recent times (with LCMS friends who won't set foot elsewhere), and there's still a legalism and heaviness there. Much of their music is barely singable, and I studied voice (though I wasn't a music major) in college. That's not to say that certain congregations haven't "lightened up" or that a majority of LCMS members aren't fine, friendly people. But it wouldn't be my first or even tenth choice for a denominational affiliation. I think that Miss Amanda - God bless her soul - probably put the shoe on the correct foot, so to speak.
So......even though I may be harshly criticized (or criticised in Britain), I shall thoughtfully make my own decisions about Communion reception, and I shall remain in a denomination that's a tad or two "lighter" than the LCMS. After all, we do have a serious duty to worship, but we should consider it a joy and a privilege as well. The Lord's hospitality should be extended to every sincere believer who approaches his table, regardless of his/her church membership. Amen.
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
How much did you get paid by Miss Amanda for that hymn of praise?? ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PRESBY DUDE:
I've visited six or eight LCMS churches in more recent times (with LCMS friends who won't set foot elsewhere), and there's still a legalism and heaviness there. Much of their music is barely singable, and I studied voice (though I wasn't a music major) in college. That's not to say that certain congregations haven't "lightened up" or that a majority of LCMS members aren't fine, friendly people. But it wouldn't be my first or even tenth choice for a denominational affiliation.
"Dour" is perhaps a word thrown around with the LCMS more than with other denoms, and you certainly won't get an argument from me in favor of the long, drawn-out German heritage hymns of yesteryear that they still tend to love, but I must admit that the LCMS has come a long way in the past twenty years.
Although the German influence is still very heavy, I am starting to see other Lutherans actually turning to the LCMS as a doctrinal refuge of sorts. Some of them are from low church Lutheran denoms that have strayed too far from Lutheranism toward a more fundamentalist non-denom feeling. Other refugees are ELCA Lutherans who feel the ELCA has strayed too far into liberal mainlineism.
Twenty years ago, none of those people would have even considered joining an LCMS church. Back then, it was far more insulated, and far more...hereditary, for lack of a better word.
Being refused or even strongly discouraged from receiving Holy Communion does hurt. That being said, the bulk of the LCMS churches around here are quite flexible in that regard, especially if the receiver is a Lutheran. I hope that this attitude doesn't sour toward ELCA Lutherans, but I have a feeling that more and more LCMS churches are probably headed that way.
[ETA: And, for what it's worth, I always enjoy Amanda B. Reckondwythe's MW reports, too.]
[ 26. May 2012, 01:13: Message edited by: Martin L ]
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
PRESBY DUDE, it's fine for you to believe that the altar shouldn't be fenced. But you're showing a lack of respect for other Christians when you receive communion at a church which practices closed (or even close) communion.
Read St Paul in ch. 14 of the epistle to the Romans. You are risking scandalizing your brethren. It's not okay to do that just because you're "right".
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I've been to other LCMS churches where the instructions for communion were to the effect that "Any baptized Christian who believes that the body and blood of Christ are truly present in the consecrated elements, and who is a member in good standing of his home church, and who is at peace with God and his neighbor, is welcome at Christ's holy table." At those churches I did not hesitate to go forward.
Our Savior, Pagosa Springs, was the first time I had encountered the strict LCMS policy I complained of.
I have to admit that I am less likely now to visit another LCMS church. I think my forays into Lutheranism will be limited henceforth to ELCA.
On my next trip to Pagosa Springs, which will be in late July or early August, I'll drop in on a different church. There's a RC church and a Methodist church right smack downtown, and a pentecostal type mega-church just down the road from Our Savior. I've already "done" the local Episcopal church.
Speaking of closed communion, I've located a Plymouth Brethern church here in Phoenix and plan to "do" them this Sunday. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PRESBY DUDE:
Without meaning to offend Missouri Synod folk (and I have several good friends who are members of that good-sized, active denomination), I firmly object to their notion of closed communion. [. . . ] (Oh, I will hear about this post, won't I?)
What you will hear is this: that debate about closed communion is a Dead Horse on these boards.
Discussion of the presence or absence of the practice, particularly as regards a Mystery Worshipper Report, is fine. However, debating the merits of the policy is something we keep contained in Dead Horses, so if you want to continue your critique of LCMS policy, please take it to DH. Thanks for your cooperation.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
[ 26. May 2012, 02:19: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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dalej42
Shipmate
# 10729
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Posted
Miss Amanda's post of worshiping at the local Episcopal church leads to the Lutheran church MW. Can the link be corrected?
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dalej42
Shipmate
# 10729
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Posted
Oops, I think it may be my own browser that was misdirecting the link, please ignore above.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I double-checked. The link should bring up St. Patrick's, Pagosa Springs.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Of course, it is a relief to some of us when there is no Peace. Apart from that I got the impression that their organist could do with a little re-education.
Then again - one chap's 'chilly and dour' is another's 'reverent and correct.' There are a lot of issues with MW reports that are in the YMMV category. All the same I probably would have hammered their organist pretty hard.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
Of course the organist may have been subjected to folks who angrily complain that the organ is "TOO LOUD".
They often seem to be set off when any stop besides a single soft 4' is drawn since they want to be able to clearly hear themselves mumble or whisper or quietly hum their way through the hymns.
[ 27. May 2012, 23:12: Message edited by: CorgiGreta ]
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Am wondering if Our Savior Lutheran ever got a copy of this report. While I do not think they will do anything about their communion practice, maybe they can take some of the other criticisms to heart. For instance, there are several summer music programs offered by colleges and seminaries for organists. Often, many congregational organists are not trained well and often unpaid or underpaid musicians. Many times it even harder for the organist to have a Sunday off than the pastor. But it would be an excellent form of gratitude for the congregation to give the organist a chance to attend one of these sessions.
Most denominations expect their pastors to continue their education after ordination now. They should also expect their musicians to continue their training.
[ 28. May 2012, 16:45: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I generally send the church an e-mail once the report has been published, but in this case I didn't.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I suggest you send them a copy and address it to the board of elders, with a copy to the pastor, of course.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
I have been to a number of LCMS and WELS services and for a while lurked on a Lutheran discussion board frequented by LCMS pastors.
In general, my experience and understanding is that LCMS observes closed communion, both in policy and in practice. Many if not most LCMS pastors would not serve a visitor unknown to them. Most LCMS pastors would not serve a visitor they have met before the service unless the visitor is a member in good standing of an LCMS or WELS church, or (in some cases and after establishing the individual's personal views on the significance of communion) a more conservative ELCA congregation.
It is not my experience that pastors at any church practicing closed communion seek out visitors to determine whether they meet the requirements to receive communion. Members of churches that practice closed communion already know that they are expected to introduce themselves if they should wish to receive.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
There can be no question that the pastor knew I was a visitor. Instead of (or in addition to) exchanging pleasantries, could he not have taken me aside and had a conversation with me something like:
P. Did you want to take communion with us this morning?
A. Yes, I had hoped to be able to.
P. Are you a baptized Christian?
A. Yes, I am.
P. You know, we as Lutherans believe that Christ is really and truly present in the eucharistic bread and wine. Is that your belief too?
...
The practice at LCMS churches is that communion is shared only with members of other Lutheran churches. Members of non-Lutheran churches could receive communion only if an exception were made for reasons of pastoral care or after formally accepting LCMS doctrine and becoming a member of an LCMS church.
FWIW, I myself am not and never have been an LCMS member, and do not endorse their doctrine.
[ 30. May 2012, 20:09: Message edited by: Bartolomeo ]
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I've certainly learned things about the LCMS from this thread that I had not previously known. I doubt that I will worship again at a LCMS church.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Having grown up in the LCMS church and knowing something of its history as a denomination -- I think the dourness experienced by visitors is perhaps a function both of being a church body grounded in reaction (the LCMS was started by 19th century German Pietists who were very upset with the German state church -- who felt that it was corrupt and complacent, divorced from the goals of the Reformation and unconcerned with the care of souls, and in error in embracing Higher Criticism as a methodology for studying the Bible), AND a function of the collective immigrant experience of its adherents -- homesickness mixed with the feeling of being "called out" to preserve what they believed was true Christian doctrine; an alienation both from the church back home and from American culture, religious and otherwise, in their adopted homeland. In some cases some members , like part of my family, came to the US from German Russia in the years leading up to the Revolution when their communities became a target of anti-minority sentiment, and the czar rescinded Catherine the Great's draft exemption for German settlers. So I think there's a sort of historical/cultural "darkness," if you will, that is part of the LCMS culture, that isn't I think connected directly to its theology per se.
On the other hand -- it's not so bad all the time. LCMS wedding receptions deserve the name "Hochzeit," because a high time is generally had by all, fueled by prodigious amounts of food, drink and dancing. LCMS Lutherans can party with the best apostate sinners.;-)
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
And Lutherans usually have a great sense of humor about themselves, and are the first to laugh at their own tendancy to dourness. IME.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Just a word on the music thingy--every LCMS congregation I know of is either short on musicians or grateful to have those they have--and fearfully pondering what will happen if/when those musicians move on. It's not so easy to get an organist nowadays, even in the holy land of organism (er whatever), and requiring continuing education, let alone funding it, is a pipe dream for virtually all.
Feh. I'm doing worse than I thought if my writing is this bad.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Instead of (or in addition to) exchanging pleasantries, could he not have taken me aside and had a conversation with me something like:
P. Did you want to take communion with us this morning?
A. Yes, I had hoped to be able to.
P. Are you a baptized Christian?
A. Yes, I am.
P. You know, we as Lutherans believe that Christ is really and truly present in the eucharistic bread and wine. Is that your belief too?
A. Yes, it is.
P. And we believe that Christ gave up his body and shed his blood for all of us. Do you believe that?
A. Yes, I do.
P. And we also believe that in order to receive the eucharist worthily, you should be at peace with God and with your fellow man. Do you feel that you are?
A. Yes, pastor. I am a sinner, but I am sorry for my sins and I trust in God's mercy to forgive me.
P. Welcome, then, to our table, dear Miss Amanda.
The above would have taken all of 60 seconds and would have been far more appropriate than "I'll bet you're glad to exchange the heat of Arizona for the coolness of Colorado, aren't you?"
This made me smile a little, just recalling the regular repeat threads we get on the boards about how people hate, abhor and loathe being:
- talked to at church;
- interrogated as a visitor;
- not left alone to lurk anonymously, without speech, gesture or notice or attention.
Just imagining how all those sensitive little flowers would respond to an inquisition of this proportion just because they happened to walk through the door in the hope of singing a hymn or two! I think my own inner dialogue would be something like: should I send in my CV and a couple of references as well?
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
imagining how all those sensitive little flowers would respond to an inquisition of this proportion
Had it taken place, and had been in the style of an inquisition (to quote a line from one of my favorite movies, Ken Russell's The Devils: "My dear sister in Christ, I must question you."), I would probably have bristled too. But had it been done casually, and aside, I don't think I would have objected, especially if it resulted in my being welcomed at the communion rail.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Indeed, Miss Amanda, I know how you would've reacted to it as you've shared that with us. And I've said how I would've felt about it! I was just having fun speculating on other people's reactions - especially those who don't like to be 'welcomed', let alone put through a preliminary examination, no matter how polite, friendly and appropriate!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Yes, I know. It's fun to speculate. I wonder what would have happened had we organized a Shipmeet in Pagosa Springs and selected Our Savior as our worship venue for the day?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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