homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Bugger the Bishops! (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Bugger the Bishops!
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636

 - Posted      Profile for BroJames   Email BroJames   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Perhaps independent schools invite them more than state schools? And if so, why?
(The bishop came to open our church's CofE primary school extension last month - presumably because someone thought to invite him. Another local CofE school got a former teacher to open their extension - the bishop wasn't invited.)

Bishop Bob by any chance? Not a bad chap - he did ours as well a couple of years ago.

Both he and Michael have, though, spent more time over the years in the 2 private schools (woodard) in the little white town than they have in the 4 diocese primary and junior schools.

Spent more time at, or been more reported at? I only ask because the independent schools seem to be much more assiduous and adept at getting this sort of thing reported than your average small (or even large) primary school.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

 - Posted      Profile for ExclamationMark   Email ExclamationMark   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
[QUOTE]Spent more time at, or been more reported at? I only ask because the independent schools seem to be much more assiduous and adept at getting this sort of thing reported than your average small (or even large) primary school.

Almost certainly more time: not a lot gets missed in the land between wood and water.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

 - Posted      Profile for Robert Armin     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Reflecting on the events of Maundy Thursday and Good Friday - is it possible that ALL religious hierarchies are corrupt? That once you start exercising power, and ordering other people about, you lose the values that should be guiding you? It would be depressing if it is true, but there seems lots of evidence to support the idea.

--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

 - Posted      Profile for Ariel   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well, I'd have thought one didn't enter the church for a career (naive, I know, human nature being what it is). Wasn't there some clause in the rules for monastic communities about how anyone who angled for the post of abbot was automatically disqualified?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848

 - Posted      Profile for Nunc Dimittis   Email Nunc Dimittis   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Reflecting on the events of Maundy Thursday and Good Friday - is it possible that ALL religious hierarchies are corrupt? That once you start exercising power, and ordering other people about, you lose the values that should be guiding you? It would be depressing if it is true, but there seems lots of evidence to support the idea.

Yes.

[ETA: Anyone in a position of leadership in religious communities is part of the modern day company of Pharisees... Jesus had rather alot to say about and to them, none of it particularly complimentary.]

[ 06. April 2012, 14:50: Message edited by: Nunc Dimittis ]

Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

 - Posted      Profile for Robert Armin     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Nunc:
quote:
Anyone in a position of leadership in religious communities is part of the modern day company of Pharisees
My thoughts exactly.

ETA I think you're right Ariel. The same was supposed to apply to bishops too - no one who wanted the job should get it - but it doesn't seem to have stopped the rot.

[ 06. April 2012, 17:31: Message edited by: Robert Armin ]

--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Please will the two of you above acknowledge that you have been in positions of power in religious communities.

Heck so have I and it regularly scares me silly; and I am not even a cleric but lower still down the hierarchy. Bishops may be Pharisees but so too is you local priest by that definition.

Am I a Pharisee? certainly I have tendencies that way, so it is normally part of my confession, part of my life that needs God's sanctification.

Jengie

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079

 - Posted      Profile for justlooking   Author's homepage   Email justlooking   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Reflecting on the events of Maundy Thursday and Good Friday - is it possible that ALL religious hierarchies are corrupt? That once you start exercising power, and ordering other people about, you lose the values that should be guiding you? It would be depressing if it is true, but there seems lots of evidence to support the idea.

I think it's possible that religious hierarchies produce a corrupting environment. When there's not much accountability and people are fawning around it needs an exceptional character to maintain their guiding values. Bishops are supposed to be exceptional characters of course.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

 - Posted      Profile for Anselmina     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Please will the two of you above acknowledge that you have been in positions of power in religious communities.

Heck so have I and it regularly scares me silly; and I am not even a cleric but lower still down the hierarchy. Bishops may be Pharisees but so too is you local priest by that definition.

Am I a Pharisee? certainly I have tendencies that way, so it is normally part of my confession, part of my life that needs God's sanctification.

Jengie

I usually feel as if I'm preaching to myself almost exclusively when those scriptures come up!

'Jesus said this to the religious authorities and leaders.... well, that would be, like, someone - er.... well, someone like me.... in their fine robes.... mmmmm, like, er, these I suppose..... getting noticed in the market place, and the best seats at banquets. (Shit, me again!).... well, er.... right, let's affirm our faith as we stand to say the creed!' [Hot and Hormonal]

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

 - Posted      Profile for Zappa   Email Zappa   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
being a gadfly I think I've worked with more bishops than many have, and I would fear any generalizations.

I have had, in random order
  • Unapproachable Supreme Generalissimo Bishop
  • Burnt out Bishop
  • Save the World Bishop
  • Funny ha-ha I'm a joke bishop # 1
  • Underrated bloody brilliant Bishop
  • Can I sell you a used car Bishop
  • Interfering bigot bishop
  • Underrated Visionary Bishop
  • Captain Queeg Bishop
  • Funny ha-ha I'm a joke Bishop # 2
  • Captain Executive Bishop
  • Prince Bishop
  • I trust my priests and do my best Bishop
  • Bishop who?

(some were assistants, some only keeping the chair warm ... there's been some interregnums amongst that lot, too)

Some were good, some were arseholes, and would (and do, more or less) say the same about me. Three I'd take a bullet for. So basically I wouldn't generalise. I think Banner Lady makes a fair point - they must be able to administer (I will never be a bishop, on that count alone, but on one or two others, too). They must be able to pastor, in theory, too, but I'm fucked if I would go to my boss to be pastored. So really that's pretty much a symbolic role - they carry a staff.

But then again, I roll with the punches, and while three in the above list rate in my 'specimemins of falied humanity' catalogue, the rest were decent people struggling to do an impossible task. So on the whole I pray for them, try not to bother them unless necessary, and respect them when I'm in their company.

--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147

 - Posted      Profile for sebby   Email sebby   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Perhaps this is precisely why there should have been a vote against the Anglican Covenant in most dioceses. It was a small way to send a message to the episcopate that centralisation in whatever form runs contrary to the mores of the CofE.

There is a strong argument that where the bishops voted in favour, it would have been most healthy if the clergy and laity voted against.

Certainly in the middle part of the 20thC the bishops rarely interfered in parishes. When there was a disaster (like in this parish where five people drowned in the river), the parish clergy just got on and did it. Now the local bishop would be filmed preaching and taking it over.

--------------------
sebhyatt

Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

 - Posted      Profile for Anselmina     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
They must be able to pastor, in theory, too, but I'm fucked if I would go to my boss to be pastored.

I can imagine that would be a pretty serious dis-incentive. [Paranoid]

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
DangerousDeacon
Shipmate
# 10582

 - Posted      Profile for DangerousDeacon   Author's homepage   Email DangerousDeacon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Zappa makes a serious point - part of the problem is the conflicting roles a Bishop has. I was once asked to stand for a vacant Diocese, and went to my Bishop (who was also the Primate) to ask his advice. He responded that he couldn't advise me, because that would conflict with his responsibility as Primate to confirm the election of the person elected. In that particular province, he was stating a legal truth. When, thankfully, my nomination did not go through (the Holy Spirit worked on this occasion) we had a long conversation in which his pastoral skills were finally allowed to work.

So, one problem, and why some good priests who could be good bishops end up failing - too many conflicting roles - it is impossible to be ruler, judge, teacher and pastor all at the one time.

--------------------
'All the same, it may be that I am wrong; what I take for gold and diamonds may be only a little copper and glass.'

Posts: 506 | From: Top End | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147

 - Posted      Profile for sebby   Email sebby   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A little like those who would be politicians, the fact that someone WISHES to be a bishop should be a natural disqualification.

The suspect psychology of someone who wishes for power or influence, even if pomposly self-deluded in thinking that they can 'do good', or even worse, that it is the 'work of the Holy Spirit' should make whatever process exists weedle out such persons.

As someone remarked elsewhere perhaps the randon picking out of a name from a chalice by a child should be the method of selection.

Perhaps those who would be naturally appropriate for the position would be those who did not wish their names to be placed in the chalice at all.

--------------------
sebhyatt

Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Although I'm only someone in the pew, so may only have part of the picture, it looks for all the world, to us ordinary church attenders, as if our Diocesan Bishop has organised the whole Diocese into groups called 'Mission Communities'. All very neat and tidy, but in reality everyone on a merry-go-round which never seems to stop in the same place with anyone you recognise. The numbers of churches in each community seems to be going up and up (this is a very rural area), while the number of priests in each community seems to be going down and down. Meanwhile, extra money can be bid for to finance mission initiatives within these communities (from allocated central funds).

Whether this is over-organisation, or not, probably depends on how involved you think a bishop should be. I can't work out whether it has added an extra administrative layer to the old deanery system, or whether it is ultimately intended to replace deaneries altogether. [Confused]

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454

 - Posted      Profile for Zacchaeus   Email Zacchaeus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Every time I see this thread title, I have an urge to say 'no thank you' [Big Grin]
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged
Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

 - Posted      Profile for Robert Armin     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Please will the two of you above acknowledge that you have been in positions of power in religious communities.

I can't quite see how that is relevant JJ, but I recognise the truth of the rest of your post. Jesus taught his disciples to be servants, displaying sacrificial love, so maybe we're asking for trouble if we give anyone any power in Christianity. Maybe we should ditch all the structures, and just get on with working out the two Great Commandments.

--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Barefoot Friar

Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100

 - Posted      Profile for Barefoot Friar   Email Barefoot Friar   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
The Anglican church is in decline everywhere except Africa apparently. We do know why don't we?

I may be way, way off in left field here, but my perception is that it's because 1) very few new churches are being planted, and 2) very few existing parishes are doing what is necessary to reach out to the people in their communities.

Hope I'm wrong. But it's the main reason I'm United Methodist still and not Episcopalian.

--------------------
Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Barefoot Friar

Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100

 - Posted      Profile for Barefoot Friar   Email Barefoot Friar   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
[QB] A little like those who would be politicians, the fact that someone WISHES to be a bishop should be a natural disqualification./QB]

Couldn't we take that to it's natural conclusion by saying that anyone who wishes to be a pastor/priest/presbyter shouldn't be allowed to be?

Where does calling step in? How can I say that I'm called to be a deacon or priest, but not that I'm called to the episcopacy?

Not trying to argue, but to understand. Does God call people to be bishops? If so, then does that mean your statement above is incorrect, or am I misunderstanding you? If God does not call people to be bishops, then my next question is, "does God really call people into the priesthood?"

--------------------
Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

 - Posted      Profile for ExclamationMark   Email ExclamationMark   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Although I'm only someone in the pew, so may only have part of the picture, it looks for all the world, to us ordinary church attenders, as if our Diocesan Bishop has organised the whole Diocese into groups called 'Mission Communities'. All very neat and tidy, but in reality everyone on a merry-go-round which never seems to stop in the same place with anyone you recognise. The numbers of churches in each community seems to be going up and up (this is a very rural area), while the number of priests in each community seems to be going down and down. Meanwhile, extra money can be bid for to finance mission initiatives within these communities (from allocated central funds).

Whether this is over-organisation, or not, probably depends on how involved you think a bishop should be. I can't work out whether it has added an extra administrative layer to the old deanery system, or whether it is ultimately intended to replace deaneries altogether. [Confused]

Bishop "Bob" strikes again eh? How does the system cope though with so many churches with very small congregations and (in some cases) members not interested in anything that will attract new people to the church?

How can you offer pastoral care on a Sunday when the preacher in on his/her bkike to the next church as soon as the service ends?

One solution is for the bigger churches (of whatever denomination) to help the smaller. Not so far from you an Anglican Church has been helped by musicians from a bigger church from another denomination - the musicians lived in the village and now commit to the anglican vs the other church.

[ 08. April 2012, 08:19: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079

 - Posted      Profile for justlooking   Author's homepage   Email justlooking   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
[QB] A little like those who would be politicians, the fact that someone WISHES to be a bishop should be a natural disqualification./QB]

Couldn't we take that to it's natural conclusion by saying that anyone who wishes to be a pastor/priest/presbyter shouldn't be allowed to be?

Where does calling step in? How can I say that I'm called to be a deacon or priest, but not that I'm called to the episcopacy?

Not trying to argue, but to understand. Does God call people to be bishops? If so, then does that mean your statement above is incorrect, or am I misunderstanding you? If God does not call people to be bishops, then my next question is, "does God really call people into the priesthood?"

I think God calls but isn't always heard. Other voices get in the way. God calls some who may not be acceptable to those in power. And I don't doubt there are some in high office who were never called into priesthood in the first place.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
jacobsen

seeker
# 14998

 - Posted      Profile for jacobsen   Email jacobsen   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Well, I'd have thought one didn't enter the church for a career (naive, I know, human nature being what it is). Wasn't there some clause in the rules for monastic communities about how anyone who angled for the post of abbot was automatically disqualified?

Or, as I read in Rumer Godden's "In this house of Brede",a novel about Benedictine nuns, "to intrigue to be Abbess is a serious fault. And anyone who intrigues for the job deserves to get it." (Misquoted,but accurate in its essentials.)

--------------------
But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.

Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged
Mary Marriott
Apprentice
# 16938

 - Posted      Profile for Mary Marriott   Email Mary Marriott   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Reflecting on the events of Maundy Thursday and Good Friday - is it possible that ALL religious hierarchies are corrupt? That once you start exercising power, and ordering other people about, you lose the values that should be guiding you? It would be depressing if it is true, but there seems lots of evidence to support the idea.

I've been wondering about the dilemma too. Makes much sense Robert Armin.

Historically and currently the RSoF in Britain, has had a particular take on authority; and especially authority in a religious context.

Compelling historical analysis of their seventeenth century origins, on In Our Time last Thurs with Melvin Bragg (radio 4); and available on line I think for 7 days.

--------------------
'We have to be ready to move forward' she said. 'Maybe this is not how we are meant to be for ever.' (Mina in Skellig)

Posts: 32 | From: the half way house | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147

 - Posted      Profile for sebby   Email sebby   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Although I'm only someone in the pew, so may only have part of the picture, it looks for all the world, to us ordinary church attenders, as if our Diocesan Bishop has organised the whole Diocese into groups called 'Mission Communities'. All very neat and tidy, but in reality everyone on a merry-go-round which never seems to stop in the same place with anyone you recognise. The numbers of churches in each community seems to be going up and up (this is a very rural area), while the number of priests in each community seems to be going down and down. Meanwhile, extra money can be bid for to finance mission initiatives within these communities (from allocated central funds).

Whether this is over-organisation, or not, probably depends on how involved you think a bishop should be. I can't work out whether it has added an extra administrative layer to the old deanery system, or whether it is ultimately intended to replace deaneries altogether. [Confused]

Bishop "Bob" strikes again eh? How does the system cope though with so many churches with very small congregations and (in some cases) members not interested in anything that will attract new people to the church?

How can you offer pastoral care on a Sunday when the preacher in on his/her bkike to the next church as soon as the service ends?

One solution is for the bigger churches (of whatever denomination) to help the smaller. Not so far from you an Anglican Church has been helped by musicians from a bigger church from another denomination - the musicians lived in the village and now commit to the anglican vs the other church.

The truth is that the money has run out. If if hadn't, there is no way the diocese would be administered in that way. They can dress it up in all sorts of absurd and pseudo-theological jargon: 'mission communities' ; empowering the laity ; exciting challenges and so on, but it comes down to one fact: there's no money.

--------------------
sebhyatt

Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079

 - Posted      Profile for justlooking   Author's homepage   Email justlooking   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
The truth is that the money has run out. If if hadn't, there is no way the diocese would be administered in that way. They can dress it up in all sorts of absurd and pseudo-theological jargon: 'mission communities' ; empowering the laity ; exciting challenges and so on, but it comes down to one fact: there's no money.

I wonder why they can't just say that. IME most people can cope with honesty but get very miffed when they think they're being manipulated. If bishops could be honest and admit that what's happening isn't good but is the best that can be managed in the circumstances then they might get more support.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
Chesterbelloc

Tremendous trifler
# 3128

 - Posted      Profile for Chesterbelloc   Email Chesterbelloc   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mary Marriott:
Compelling historical analysis of their seventeenth century origins, on In Our Time last Thurs with Melvin Bragg (radio 4); and available on line I think for 7 days.

The podcast of it is available indefinitely, along with the whole In Our Time archive - go to the programme's own webpage. Wonderful resource.

--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
The truth is that the money has run out. If if hadn't, there is no way the diocese would be administered in that way. They can dress it up in all sorts of absurd and pseudo-theological jargon: 'mission communities' ; empowering the laity ; exciting challenges and so on, but it comes down to one fact: there's no money.

I wonder why they can't just say that. IME most people can cope with honesty but get very miffed when they think they're being manipulated. If bishops could be honest and admit that what's happening isn't good but is the best that can be managed in the circumstances then they might get more support.
Indeed. Indeed.

But meanwhile, all over the country, piles and piles of priceless church plate is being stored away in museums, giving people the impression that the Anglican Church is rich beyond their wildest dreams.

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204

 - Posted      Profile for Chamois   Email Chamois   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And the bishops keep on appointing nightmare vicars who convert solvent, working parishes into bankrupt fucked up messes

--------------------
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases

Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
Offeiriad

Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031

 - Posted      Profile for Offeiriad   Email Offeiriad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Re the financial situation the C of E faces, I was boggled to read a chapter on how the Church Commissioners have operated in an otherwise bizarre book called 'Is God Still An Englishman?: How We Lost Our Faith (But Found New Soul)' by Cole Moreton.

If this chapter is accurate (and I haven't heard it seriously questioned), then millions upon millions have been lost in ill-judged financial dealings by the Commissioners over the past thirty years or so. This must have gone a long way to undermining the funding, and thus the provision, of the parochial ministry in England.

I was vaguely aware that there had been 'problems', but I was staggered to read of the kind of sums involved. Of course any Church is spiritually healthier for relying on the giving of the living than the endowments of the dead, but even so, every C of E church in the country is now suffering directly from the consequences of this incompetence.

The deep cuts now being made almost everywhere must be at least as much the fault of the Commissioners as of poor leadership by the Bishops (or anyone else).

Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079

 - Posted      Profile for justlooking   Author's homepage   Email justlooking   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A bit of googling shows losses of $1.7 billion in 2009 caused by the global financial crisis. A loss of £40 million in 2010 is described as resulting from a "disasterous investment" and the Guardian 2002 reportd a loss of £80 million and refers to a loss of £800 million in the 1980's

quote:
"It shows that the reliance on the performance of the stock market when you're running an organisation of such significance and importance is a serious flaw. The shift towards congregational giving has been impressive.

"But over time we could be looking at a much more fragmented church, in which some parishes and dioceses find themselves struggling financially."


That last sentence has proved to be true.

Are the Church Commissioners particulalry inept in comparison with other investors?

Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
And the bishops keep on appointing nightmare vicars who convert solvent, working parishes into bankrupt fucked up messes

When you meet some very admirable non-stipendiaries and compare them with some very awful stipendiaries (OK, OK, not a fair comparison, but you see where I'm heading), you really begin to wonder whether the church couldn't save a load of money by running on mainly voluntary rather than paid staff. If there are enough volunteers, that is. Certainly the church would be in very deep smegeroony by now without all those loyal and dedicated NSMs, readers, etc.

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

 - Posted      Profile for Zappa   Email Zappa   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Bugger - youse are all putting me out of a job [Frown]

--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204

 - Posted      Profile for Chamois   Email Chamois   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Not us, Zappa.

Congregations are declining, inflation is increasing, unemployment is soaring, businesses are going bust on a daily basis and the Church Commissioners are buggering around wasting the C of E's remaining capital and THERE JUST ISN'T ANY MONEY LEFT.

IMO the bishops need to start considering what sort of service their clergy are providing to the laity. Because the laity aren't going to go on paying for crap and why should they?

(Nothing personal meant, even if this is Hell)

--------------------
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases

Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

 - Posted      Profile for Anselmina     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
And the bishops keep on appointing nightmare vicars who convert solvent, working parishes into bankrupt fucked up messes

When you meet some very admirable non-stipendiaries and compare them with some very awful stipendiaries (OK, OK, not a fair comparison, but you see where I'm heading), you really begin to wonder whether the church couldn't save a load of money by running on mainly voluntary rather than paid staff. If there are enough volunteers, that is. Certainly the church would be in very deep smegeroony by now without all those loyal and dedicated NSMs, readers, etc.
Well, practically the CofE is running - mainly - on volunteers. The most of the capital that comes in to fund the ever decreasing number of full-timers are volunteer payers; PCC and sub-committee members, parish officers, lay and some clergy synod members, lay and some clergy diocesan advisors and committee members, church maintainers in the parish (gardeners, cleaners, flowers, group leaders, liturgical assistants etc), many clergy, all readers are volunteers.

The mystery is with all this lot going on why are so many stipes still run off their feet?! [Confused]

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079

 - Posted      Profile for justlooking   Author's homepage   Email justlooking   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
....... The mystery is with all this lot going on why are so many stipes still run off their feet?! [Confused]

Because they don't want help. They need it but don't want it. The mystery for me is why so many seem to prefer rushing around trying to do everything when there's no need. They're blocking effective ministry.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Some are maybe not very good time managers - they spend a lot of time doing things that volunteers could do, yet get frustrated that volunteers don't want to do the things that the stipendiary does well. A mismatch of skills and expectations.

It probably also doesn't help that priests who only used to have one or two churches to look after now have six or seven (in rural areas, anyway). They probably didn't join the priesthood in order to become business managers.

[ 13. April 2012, 08:28: Message edited by: Chorister ]

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

 - Posted      Profile for Lyda*Rose   Email Lyda*Rose   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Please will the two of you above acknowledge that you have been in positions of power in religious communities.

I can't quite see how that is relevant JJ, but I recognise the truth of the rest of your post. Jesus taught his disciples to be servants, displaying sacrificial love, so maybe we're asking for trouble if we give anyone any power in Christianity. Maybe we should ditch all the structures, and just get on with working out the two Great Commandments.
There's always the Society of Friends.

--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079

 - Posted      Profile for justlooking   Author's homepage   Email justlooking   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Chorister, my point is that many of those stipes who need help don't want it. Whether or not they are rubbish time managers is immaterial. They don't want the help that's already there. Experienced Readers complain of being under-used, of offering help to over-stretched stipes who seem to prefer rushing around like headless chickens. I heard of one with six rural parishes who has cancelled services when there is a group of experienced Readers able and willing to help those churches.

[ 13. April 2012, 09:29: Message edited by: justlooking ]

Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204

 - Posted      Profile for Chamois   Email Chamois   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
my point is that many of those stipes who need help don't want it.

Classic control-freak syndrome.

Plus total lack of trust in the laity, like those vicars who dismantle working Bible-study groups because they feel threatened by them.

I think it's high time the church reconsidered its criteria for appointment to stipendiary posts.

--------------------
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases

Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

 - Posted      Profile for Anselmina     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oh yeah. I forgot. It's always the clergy's fault. Even when it's not. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Offeiriad

Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031

 - Posted      Profile for Offeiriad   Email Offeiriad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
'It gets it over that much quicker
to go and blame it on the Vicar'.
(J.Betjeman)

Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

 - Posted      Profile for Robert Armin     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There are still a lot of clergy who operate as one man bands (and it is mainly men, in my experience). My own training is a long time ago now, but I wonder how well modern ordinands are prepared for a shared ministry.

--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Oh yeah. I forgot. It's always the clergy's fault. Even when it's not. [Roll Eyes]

That kinda comes with the territory of being a heirarchial church.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

 - Posted      Profile for Anselmina     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Oh yeah. I forgot. It's always the clergy's fault. Even when it's not. [Roll Eyes]

That kinda comes with the territory of being a heirarchial church.
As I always say: you get the credit for nothing and the blame for everything.
[Big Grin]

Robert Armin, training (at least in my vicar factory) was about collaborative ministry, with lay and ordained. Lay teams, lay ministry, lay involvement at every level - as well as various combinations of working with accredited and ordained ministers of different sorts. The 'c' word was a BIG theme. In fact, it came as a shock after college to find out that the people in the pews weren't necessarily straining at the leash to get involved at all. And not from being disabled by clergy control-freakery either!

I know that that side of things exists - but so does the side of things where opportunities are there in abundance and are being studiously ignored.

But all collaborations require people with collaborative vision and skills. Some clergy are very gifted at enabling such collaborations - some aren't. Some of us just try our best with what we've got. I'm grateful for the folks who keep the doors open and the churches operating; and who in many ways keep elements of church life alive. I just wish I could find the magic button that encourages more people to commit and participate, and try new things.

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

 - Posted      Profile for Spike   Email Spike   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Some are maybe not very good time managers - they spend a lot of time doing things that volunteers could do, yet get frustrated that volunteers don't want to do the things that the stipendiary does well. A mismatch of skills and expectations.

Not so much that they don't want to do it. More that they're not available. Most of the people able to do a lot of the jobs that would share the burden of the priest are in full time paid employment and/or have families to look after. A church I used to attend wanted to keep the doors open all day, but needed volunteers to "church watch" during the day. The Vicar was disappointed that the only volunteers were over 65 and genuinely couldn't understand why younger people weren't volunteering.

I've also heard plenty of stipendiary clergy moaning about the fact that their NSM colleagues are never available during the weel. That might be something to do with them needing to earn the money to keep a roof over their heads!

--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454

 - Posted      Profile for Zacchaeus   Email Zacchaeus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I've enever heard maonig about how little NSM's can do. But I've heard planty who are grateful that it helps getting their Holiday's as they have Sunday cover.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged
Stranger in a strange land
Shipmate
# 11922

 - Posted      Profile for Stranger in a strange land   Email Stranger in a strange land   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
[QUOTE]Bishop Bob by any chance? Not a bad chap - he did ours as well a couple of years ago.

Both he and Michael have, though, spent more time over the years in the 2 private schools (woodard) in the little white town than they have in the 4 diocese primary and junior schools.

More likely to be +John I would have thought, and he spends a lot of time in maintained schools.
Posts: 608 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

 - Posted      Profile for Amazing Grace   Email Amazing Grace   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Some are maybe not very good time managers - they spend a lot of time doing things that volunteers could do, yet get frustrated that volunteers don't want to do the things that the stipendiary does well. A mismatch of skills and expectations.

Plus, not knowing where to let go or being "high control" about things that it is actually safe for them to delegate.

Sometimes these people have even been Talked To by colleagues or their lay leadership and just can't shake the habit.

(It happens in lay leadership too; some people just don't want to let go.)

--------------------
WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

 - Posted      Profile for Amazing Grace   Email Amazing Grace   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
I've also heard plenty of stipendiary clergy moaning about the fact that their NSM colleagues are never available during the week. That might be something to do with them needing to earn the money to keep a roof over their heads!

Not just the stipendary clergy! I know a lot of people in my parish were expecting that of our former deacon, who had a day job (and two special-needs children), and seemed to think that we were paying her some sort of salary even though anyone who goes to the annual meeting will not see a line item for it.

--------------------
WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play

Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I imagine one of the reasons people who think they ought to be ministering are not used, is just as the are some nightmare clergy there are also some nightmare lay ministers.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools