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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Titanic obsession
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Part of my native city has been redeveloped as the
Titanic Quarter - though I suspect it'll still be known as 'the dacks'.
The organizers had a big party to launch the Titanic exhibition. Complete with - fireworks!
Tactful, eh? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
The Walter Lord book is probably one of the best ways to appreciate the human side of the tragedy. Concise, not overly dramatic and based on real-life accounts.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
This is the 160th anniversary of the sinking of HMS Birkenhead. No one makes a movie about it.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I can even tear up a bit when I think of the band playing on the deck.
As a musician, this is the part that gets me every time. It's where I can connect with the story.
I'm not a Titanic fanatic (and I've met some people who really are, so I can sympathize with Ariel to a point). The one story I've heard (on NPR) which touched me was the story of the musicians, playing on the darkened deck.
Even before the anniversary, this was a story which captured imaginations. Not always mine, but enough that it has remained alive. In the end, it's better documented than many disasters, which makes it easier to put oneself into the story. In the midst of all the mistakes, stupidity, etc. there were a lot of people who died well, honoring their better side instead of reverting to their worst.
It certainly doesn't hurt to remember that from time to time.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I confess to having had moderate Titanic obsession this weekend passed.
Listened to Jeremy Vine's 'minute by minute' Radio 2 programme of the sinking until 2.20 am April 15th 2012. Also watched about six TV films and documentaries on the subject.
100 years is a man-made period of time , and it could be argued that much of the sentiment surrounding this single event has been man-made, yet the story of Titanic has entered folklore because it just has all the right ingredients.
Yes , I've unashamedly had the *Diana feeling* at the Centenary of Titanic's one and only voyage that ended on the bottom of the Atlantic.
Happy though to discover the antidote in a Hell thread, which is as good as saying -- "It sank , get over it".
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
Compared with some, we seem to have got off quite lightly at worship yesterday.
'Nearer my God to thee' to keep the old myth alive, and the celebrant, clearly overcome with the occasion, blessing us at the end in the name of 'Christ, the Great Shepherd of the deep...' ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I avoided all the Titanic coverage - my radio and TV have off switches.
I used them.
So did I. I just haven't managed to find one for the placards outside newsagents' shops, the advertising posters around and about, the cunningly disguised articles in newspapers that you have to get past the front page to see, various things on the internet or overheard conversations in public places. It's now at the ridiculous stage where there’s some reminder of it on an average of about four times a day.
I've heard atheists make this accusation against Christians. You can't go anywhere without seeing a cross, or a church, or some other reminder of Christianity. It's naff when they bitch about that; it's naff when you bitch about this. Get over it.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
This is the 160th anniversary of the sinking of HMS Birkenhead. No one makes a movie about it.
Did they sing "Nearer My God to Thee" as the ship sank?
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
<unfortunate naming tangent>
Dunderheaded naming seems to be inevitable. When a housing estate was built on the site of RAF Hornchurch (a Battle of Britain fighter airfield) some houses were on Bader Walk. Well, he could, but it was pretty crass. I'll let a Mancunian describe the fuss over the naming of the home fan's end of the City of Manchester (now the Etihad) Stadium.
</unfortunate naming tangent>
On the subject of unfortunate names, the recent Julian Fellowes drama about the Titanic featured Peter the Painter, the Latvian anarchist involved in the Siege of Sidney Street. Reading around the subject, I found out that a local housing association
named two buildings after him.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Fortunately, nothing at church about it. OTOH, the national broadcaster went ape (I know, but the alternative is to use overboard) and the event filled every news bulletin and station announcement. We even heard that the great great grandson of a survivor liked building sandcastles at the beach, keeping alive a link with the sea.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
We even heard that the great great grandson of a survivor liked building sandcastles at the beach, keeping alive a link with the sea.
HOW IS THAT A NEWS ITEM??? seriously. if he joined the coastguard, okay. if he builds ships, all right. even if he became a lifeguard, that's something. but motherfucking SANDCASTLES?!?
some editor somewhere needs to be taken out and shot.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I think interest in this topic will eventually go down.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
This is the 160th anniversary of the sinking of HMS Birkenhead. No one makes a movie about it.
Did they sing "Nearer My God to Thee" as the ship sank?
Makes a good story, doesn't it?
I believe it was never confirmed what was the final tune. Or even if 'Nearer my God to thee' was played. It wasn't on the band's playlist. They played rag-time numbers, it seems, to the fleeing passengers. Then right at the end, Wallace Hartley was observed, standing by himself playing the hymn tune 'Autumn', having dismissed the others.
A separate and complementary report says, that while playing on another ship Hartley had told a colleague that should he ever be on a sinking ship, he had always loved 'Nearer, my God, to thee' and would probably play that. I understand 'Autumn' does scan for 'Nearer, my God' so it's plausible.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I think interest in this topic will eventually go down.
But this thread has buoyed my spirits tremendously!
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
TV programmes, radio programmes, news broadcasts, .... You can't get away from it.
Turn off the fucking television and radio.
There. Fixed that for you.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
We even heard that the great great grandson of a survivor liked building sandcastles at the beach, keeping alive a link with the sea.
HOW IS THAT A NEWS ITEM??? seriously. if he joined the coastguard, okay. if he builds ships, all right. even if he became a lifeguard, that's something. but motherfucking SANDCASTLES?!?
some editor somewhere needs to be taken out and shot.
Couldn't we just cast him adrift?
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I think interest in this topic will eventually go down.
But this thread has buoyed my spirits tremendously!
It certainly floats my boat.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Put him on an ice floe, you mean? Sure, whatever floats your boat.
{Ack - x-post with the one-liner king!}
[ 17. April 2012, 00:28: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Did they sing "Nearer My God to Thee" as the ship sank?
Never mind "Nearer My God to Thee" or "Autumn", this is what you should listen to.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by passer:
they've even re-released the film in 3D.
And super 3D.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Bah. They're carrying me out to the Old 100th at my funeral.
Speaking of 3-D, RMS Titanic Inc. (the salvors-in-posession), jointly with National Geographic and James Cameron have released new composite photos of the wreck along with a complete sonar site survey of the entire wreck site. This is actually useful for historic, academic and preservation purposes. Plus they found two sections of the bottom and the missing section around Funnel 3.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
....
We probably have Walter Lord who wrote "a night to remember" to thank for a lot of this. His book sort of put the Titanic back on the map when it was published. And it stayed there pretty much ever since.
And Shalamar
Get ready...tonight
Gonna make this a night to remember
A night to remember
[eta: well, mainly the night to remember part.]
[ 17. April 2012, 02:03: Message edited by: duchess ]
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
This thread is sinking fast.
Oops! It's gone.
'Crazy Zen'? ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Matariki
Shipmate
# 14380
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Posted
I lived in Southampton from 84 to 87 and remember a very dignified memorial in a church near the docks.
Watching the news I was surprised to see a passenger crying during the memorial service, this was 100 years later, who would he have known?
Having lived overseas for over a decade now I have come to the conclusion (watching 'home' from afar) that the English disease is nostalgia. Quite what was so wonderful about life in 1912, when the lower orders were left to drown, God alone knows.
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"Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accompanied alone; therefore we are saved by love." Reinhold Niebuhr.
Posts: 298 | From: Just across the Shire from Hobbiton | Registered: Dec 2008
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
This is the 160th anniversary of the sinking of HMS Birkenhead. No one makes a movie about it.
Ya, Tunnel vision .
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matariki:
Having lived overseas for over a decade now I have come to the conclusion (watching 'home' from afar) that the English disease is nostalgia.
Do you miss it?
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I am very interested in what actually happened to the Titanic. I saw a movie in the early 1950s, which pre-dated A Night to Remember. I never bothered to see a later one. What actually happened is much more interesting than stories people make up about it.
The most recent book I have read, Titanic's Last Secrets, offers strong evidence that the ship sank as quickly as it did because of a major design flaw. It would have sunk eventually, but it should have remained afloat at least twelve hours, which would have given time for rescue ships to arrive and take everyone off.
There were several other problems. The original design specified a certain thickness of steel. The owners wanted to save money, not only on the steel, but also on the fuel required to move the extra weight. This was a mistake. The longer a ship is, the thicker the steel needs to be to keep it from flexing. Until the sister ships Olympic and Titanic were built, no one had had experience with ships that size; no one thought through all the ramifications.
In addition, the steering did not work very well, again because of the size.
Even by the standards of the day, the Titanic was not that safe. Other ships built at that time had double hulls, which meant that if the outer hull was penetrated, the inner hull would usually hold. If there had been a double hull, the iceberg would probably not have sunk the ship.
I have also read a book by James Bisset, who was Second Officer on the Carpathia when it picked up the Titanic survivors. He had the opportunity to talk to the surviving officers and got a very good picture of what things were like.
The topic is fascinating; the movies are silly.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Pasco
Shipmate
# 388
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Nobody was particularly bothered about the Titanic in the past few decades.
It could be said i.e. of all the years leading upto 15th April 2012:
Then, It's The 'Anniversaries', Now Is "Centenary*" - ?
[* - i.e. Commercial exploitation necessary to encourage notions about riches yonder - ?]
Posts: 997 | From: Domiciling 'ere, living locally. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Check out the 1st class before the arrival of guests at my Cathedral here.
I love my Cathedral. Beautiful place. Beautiful people. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matariki:
...when the lower orders were left to drown...
If they were men. The survival rate among second and third class women passengers was as great or greater than that of first-class male passengers. They really did operate on a "women and children first" rule.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Pasco
Shipmate
# 388
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
The topic is fascinating; the movies are silly.
Moo
Until the centenary many of us locally had barely taken any notice of the event. I was pleasantly surprised at how fascinating the story behind Titanic is and as a family we had treated ourselves to "Lookout: Southampton's Titanic story in song" by a local group of folk singers who had been perfecting their performance for the past two years at various venues. The local mayor who had been to all the Titanic events had considered this by far the best he had been to and worthy of a much wider audience. For this he had received a standing ovation from the packed house at Turner Sims. The 23rd and final song in the story featured the lookout man i.e. Fred Fleet who ended his days in Southampton unable to get a job on a ship and would sell newspapers for a living, eventually committing suicide following his wife's death. How his life and those of the rest of the ship would have changed had they heeded his warning of an iceberg though there wasn't much time to react. Had the keys to cupboard where the binoculars were kept not been accidentally left behind in Southampton, the lookout post would have had sufficient warning and we would have been spared tacky souvenirs sold in shops the world over.
[I would though have missed the superb performance by the "White Star Line-up," who got the thumbs up from the audience. I'm pleased to say, no T-shirts were sold at this event. A CD of the songs was all that was on offer - a reminder of a worthwhile evening out]
Posts: 997 | From: Domiciling 'ere, living locally. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I am very interested in what actually happened to the Titanic. ...
There were several other problems. The original design specified a certain thickness of steel. The owners wanted to save money, not only on the steel, but also on the fuel required to move the extra weight. This was a mistake. The longer a ship is, the thicker the steel needs to be to keep it from flexing. Until the sister ships Olympic and Titanic were built, no one had had experience with ships that size; no one thought through all the ramifications.
I also believe that the steel of the day was not as consistent as it is today, in terms of crystalline structure. That made the plates more liable to buckle and split than they should have been. For what it's worth, the "Lusitania" may have had the same problem which helped it to sink so quickly after being torpedoed (tho' a coal dust explosion may also have been to blame).
There is also the suggestion that closing the watertight doores hastened the ship's demise as, the ever-increasing tilt meant that the water spilled over from one compartment to the other. Counter-intuitively leaving the doors open might have meant that she filled more slowly and kept on an even keel, facilitating evacuation.
New technology often comes with unanticipated risks. For instance, the metal fatigue problems in the early Comet airliners (again, the metal was thin, to save weight as the early jet engines were feeble), the behaviour of water sloshing around in the open car deck on the "Herald of Free Enterprise", the explosions on board empty oiltankers in the late 1960s, even the presence of a very slow-moving lorry at Hixon level crossing after the installation of half-barriers ...
The Comet airliner case is interesting, because Neville Shute had wriotten a novel about just such a problem a year or two before they went into service ... just like the novel about the "Titan" colliding with an iceberg.
[ 17. April 2012, 14:26: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
This gives an interesting breakdown of the stats of survivors by various categories.
'Women and children first' was the precedent. But there is also verbal evidence that on one side of the ship a 'women and children only' rule was being exercised - which explains why some of the boats went off only partially filled. And by the time men could've been loaded into boats (and steerage passengers had made their way up to the boat decks), the boats had gone.
The very unfair result of this (apart from the needless deaths of men and women) additionally was that the men who had been saved were pilloried in the media as cowards. Not least Bruce Ismay himself who, having assisted women and children into the boats while they remained, put himself into the final boat to leave.
The steerage passengers had other problems. Because their accommodation was lower down the ship, there were naturally no nearby boat decks for them at all. And the routes up to the boat decks were complex, and in places gated off.
It was a convention of the time that, when coming into New York, steerage passengers were to be held below, separate from 1st and 2nd class, until they could be dealt with and cleared for fitness to be admitted into the country. To facilitate this, White Star agreed to construct holding gates to prevent steerage passengers from moving outside their own area during disembarkation.
During the crisis, some of these gates were locked and stewards trained in the policy that no-one was to pass, simply stuck with that idea, regardless of the extraordinary circumstances.
Nobody was assigned to guide the steerage folk to the boats - not that there would've been room for everyone anyway; though one steward apparently did just that taking up women and children in relays, until he could do no more.
Altogether, it seems that - apart from the lifeboats fiasco - there actually was no proper evacuation policy, at least with regard to steerage, and barely nothing more for the other passengers. Most crew were simply left to their own devices, with no attention paid to their safety at all. It's clear by the different approaches in filling lifeboats, and the neglect of steerage and crew, that even basic preparation for evacuation had not been properly considered.
Ironically the phrase that gave Titanic its fate-defying title of 'unsinkable' actually was supposed to come from a technical report on her safety features labelling her as 'practically unsinkable'. Incredible that anyone involved with ship construction and marine travel could really believe this!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
This gives an interesting breakdown of the stats of survivors by various categories.
Going by that he safest thing to be was a female crew member, the second safest thing was to be a seaman ("sailors" as he calls them - but all the crew are sailors but the seamen are the ones trained to handle ships at sea - and so both better able to look after themselves, and needed to handle the lifeboats for the passengers), and the most dangerous thing to be was a male crew member who was not a seaman.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
'Women and children first' was the precedent. But there is also verbal evidence that on one side of the ship a 'women and children only' rule was being exercised - which explains why some of the boats went off only partially filled. And by the time men could've been loaded into boats (and steerage passengers had made their way up to the boat decks), the boats had gone.
The life-boat debacle was also partly down to the fact that had it not been for the heroics of the engineers below decks pumping water out to the last minute then the ship would have sunk in a hour and a half.
It was an imperative that life-boats were lowered and got away quickly , while at the same time not creating a panic. A difficult circle to square and one it's easy for us to chew over in hindsight.
It also seems the chain of command had broken down with the Captain having some sort of mental shutdown , thereby leaving the officers to use their initiative . Murdoch got it right, whereas Lightoller did not.
The men who had been saved were pilloried in the media as cowards. Not least Bruce Ismay himself who, having assisted women and children into the boats while they remained, put himself into the final boat to leave.
Archibald Gracie also assisted in loading all the life-boats right up until the last, yet didn't regard this as a right to grab a seat.
I believe history has been correct in judging Ismay to be the coward he was.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Lioba
Shipmate
# 42
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I've heard of the Wilhelm Gustloff. I was a student in Germany in the 1950s, and some of the students I met had fled from the advancing Russians. Obviously, they weren't on that ship, but they knew all about it. Apparently it was so crowded that people could not sit down even on the decks; they had to stand shoulder-to-shoulder.
Moo
My partner's mother and all her family missed that boat. At first they were devestated when they realized it when coming to the port. A cousin whom they had met accidentally found them another boat and got safely over the Baltic sea. Because he helped them the cousin survived as well. He had left his army post which was completely destroyed during his absence.
Lioba
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Conversion is a life-long process.
Posts: 502 | From: Germany | Registered: May 2001
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
There was a bit of a dilemma for the authorities of the day. Because the ship sank at sea in International Waters where do they bury the survivors?
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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
There was a bit of a dilemma for the authorities of the day. Because the ship sank at sea in International Waters where do they bury the survivors?
If they were survivors, they don't need to be buried anywhere.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
There was no problem. The recovered bodies were buried in Halifax, Nova Scotia. The White Star Line arranged for the recovery of bodies through Halifax, which was the nearest port with rail connections.
Titanic Burials in Halifax
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
There was a bit of a dilemma for the authorities of the day. Because the ship sank at sea in International Waters where do they bury the survivors?
I expect the survivors were buried wherever they subsequently died....
(0f those who did die, they pretty well had to be buried wherever they made landfall. The White Star line wouldn't pay for the repatriation of any bodies, neither passengers nor crew.)
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
There is also the suggestion that closing the watertight doores hastened the ship's demise as, the ever-increasing tilt meant that the water spilled over from one compartment to the other. Counter-intuitively leaving the doors open might have meant that she filled more slowly and kept on an even keel, facilitating evacuation.
According to Brad Matsen, the author of Titanic's Last Secrets, it appears that the keel separated from the ship before it sank. It was found upside down and in two pieces some distance behind the rest of the ship. The broken metal edges show signs of flexing. Presumably this is why the ship went down so soon.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Jigsaw
Shipmate
# 11433
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Posted
A friend was watching the movie on DVD at home, and said he found it so tedious that by the end he was shouting at the TV screen:"Oh,get on with it and drown, for fuck's sake, damn you!"
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You are not alone in this.
Posts: 743 | From: Snorbens, UK | Registered: May 2006
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Archibald Gracie also assisted in loading all the life-boats right up until the last, yet didn't regard this as a right to grab a seat.
I believe history has been correct in judging Ismay to be the coward he was.
I honestly don't know why he shouldn't have got into a lifeboat as many men did - under the circumstances that existed. It was the last boat; it had room for him and he stepped in at the last minute, when it was already descending. I understand his taking room in the boat did not displace anyone else. So his cowardice - which is very likely did exist - was harmful to no-one else. I presume, too, his death would not have been particularly beneficial to the world beyond his inheritors.
There were things that - along with others - he was guilty of. Although Titanic had the regulation number of lifeboats, he still launched his company's ship knowing it could never cope with a full evacuation. And the fact that he - along with others - assumed it would never need a full evacuation was a dangerous fault of arrogance for which those people were culpable.
So maybe some people think it's perfectly appropriate that Andrews and Smith did go down with the ship, and so Ismay should have as well. And wasn't it a pity that the marine safety policy drafters weren't there, too; and all the others who were part of the situation that sent an unsafe ship to sea.
But I don't follow that logic. And I don't see where cowardice comes into it, if we're talking culpability.
I agree that in terms of Hollywood and inaccurate scape-goating reporting, it's so much neater and karmic that Ismay should've gone done with his company's ship. Maybe it would've even been natural justice. Those who knew him felt he regretted his decision for the rest of his life, as he withdrew from public life. But I don't think he should be villified for choosing life over death; even if he was motivated from fear.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
There was a bit of a dilemma for the authorities of the day. Because the ship sank at sea in International Waters where do they bury the survivors?
I expect the survivors were buried wherever they subsequently died....
(0f those who did die, they pretty well had to be buried wherever they made landfall. The White Star line wouldn't pay for the repatriation of any bodies, neither passengers nor crew.)
53 remains brought ashore in Halifax were claimed by families and buried elsewhere. The rest are in three Halifax cemeteries. Some were buried at sea by the Mackay-Bennet, the cable ship that found most of the remains. It is presumed that these were the remains in worst condition.
The White Star Line was goaded into action. The Halifax cemetary plots are cared for a trust account set up by the White Star Line.
Arrangements for Titanic Remains
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I don't think he should be villified for choosing life over death; even if he was motivated from fear.
I absolutely agree! And anybody who disagrees better be damn sure they would've gone down with the ship before they start casting stones.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
There was a bit of a dilemma for the authorities of the day. Because the ship sank at sea in International Waters where do they bury the survivors?
that joke delivers way better verbally.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jigsaw:
A friend was watching the movie on DVD at home, and said he found it so tedious that by the end he was shouting at the TV screen:"Oh,get on with it and drown, for fuck's sake, damn you!"
Insensitive bastard.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
This is the 160th anniversary of the sinking of HMS Birkenhead. No one makes a movie about it.
Ya, Tunnel vision .
I read the story on line. Dramatic story -- BUT no rich people (seems like stories about rich people attract more attention than about non-rich, we hear names of famous men who put their wives in a lifeboat and went down, we don't hear names of the 3rd class men who did the same), no band playing to the end (rich people have bands and elegance in the face of death), and most important a troop ship is not one "any of us could have been there ourselves" so it doesn't as naturally give "everyone" a sense of identification "that almost could have been me." Unless you are military perhaps. And most of us have no interest in being on a troop ship. An elegant cruise ship -- sure, some friends cruise several times a year, and the ships do their best to feel elegant!
And at some point a historical event become old and pretty much forgotten. But being preserved in song keeps memory alive. Titantic might be forgotten after this year except for the song. I grew up singing the Titanic song, we sang it bouncy which gives it a snide undertone, especially the way we changed verses! "Oh the Good lord raised his toe and said that ship will never go." Couple years ago I swapped verses with a new friend much younger, she knew verses I'd never heard. Point being Titantic is in our camp song repertoire so that's another reason the story attracts followers, it's familiar from childhood.
I know about the Sloop John B and the keeper of the Eddystone Light because someone put them into song. Did anyone write a catchy song about the HMS Birkenhead?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Jigsaw:
A friend was watching the movie on DVD at home, and said he found it so tedious that by the end he was shouting at the TV screen:"Oh,get on with it and drown, for fuck's sake, damn you!"
Insensitive bastard.
It's a film. The actors didn't die. I would probably have had the same reaction - I found 2 minutes of the trailer boring enough not to want to see any more. It's not a documentary, it didn't accurately recreate what happened, and it had Leonardo Di Caprio in it. Just fiction. As such Jigsaw's friend is perfectly free to say what he did.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Jigsaw:
A friend was watching the movie on DVD at home, and said he found it so tedious that by the end he was shouting at the TV screen:"Oh,get on with it and drown, for fuck's sake, damn you!"
Insensitive bastard.
It's a film. The actors didn't die. I would probably have had the same reaction - I found 2 minutes of the trailer boring enough not to want to see any more.
However, you had the good sense not to watch the film, it sounds like. I am puzzled at Jigsaw's friend myself. Not puzzled that s/he didn't enjoy the movie, but quite puzzled that s/he kept watching!
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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