|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Guns
|
comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
From what I can gather, Bean Sidhe, it isn't that long ago that people in remote parts of the US had to rely on hunting to supplement their diet. Spiffy and perhaps Irish Lord might tell us that this is still the case. Which would be fair enough.
it is still the case with me. Though I have to be honest - I've been a hunter in my past when I was younger, more cool with sleeping uncomfortably, and trying to be more badass. Today, I like to be comfy and hate slogging through swamps. so, a) I don't like guns and have none and b) I'm a big baby and prefer someone else do the shooting. then I'm happy to do the subdividing for a share. But yes - the meat in my freezer comes from the proper use of a 30.06.
well, or a pixie spoon.
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
It's not really about hunting. It's about the government. Americans don't trust the government. Any government. We'll need the guns when they come for us.
actually, for me it's all about hunting. and, perhaps, aggressive wildlife trying to hunt me.
if we could find a fair way of taking away guns that are meant for people but allowing the guns that are meant for food, I'd be fine with that. I've just never heard a good proposal to do that. And - I think it would have to be pretty much all-or-nothing for it to work. including cops. I don't even trust my little small town troopers not to be trigger happy - they have a subculture of paranoia that makes me decidedly nervous around them.
I've never liked the bullshit that the NRA spouts, and I think the 2nd amendment is far too over-reaching. I just don't see how we can make it happen without totally fucking people who live remote and rely on subsistence hunting. which is at least partly me now, and was most definitely me growing up.
As for Genevieve's murderer - do we actually know that he held his weapons legally? another big concern of mine - there's a lot of illegal gun ownership. when we do the big old round-up, will we only be rounding up the legal ones? that's a little nervous-making.
--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
|
Posted
How be guns be ground up to make rebar, and the rebar used in building low income housing?
How be you compare the American murder rate with that of Canada, Great Britain, Australia, and places where packing heat is not a cultural expression of manhood or personal power?
[cross=posted with comet, who had a lot of great things to say]
[ 07. May 2012, 22:49: Message edited by: Silver Faux ]
--------------------
TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet
As for Genevieve's murderer - do we actually know that he held his weapons legally?
According to the Baltimore Sun, he had a permit. I think there should be much more careful screening for mental illness before gun permits are issued. This guy was clearly mentally ill.
The man who did the Virginia Tech shootings had permits for his guns because the information about his previous commitment to a mental health facility was not accessible to the agency issuing the permits. The laws have been rewritten to make sure that all relevant information is available to the permit authorities.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
|
Posted
thanks, Moo. I agree that laws need to be changed to keep guns from mental patients. (especially considering my current little problem, outlined on the previous page. he's been on anti-psychotics since Vietnam. guns? no problem.)
I'm glad that changed there after the VTech shootings - some good, then. our laws here are so loose that I dont think permits are needed at all, just a background check for felonies. (Irish Lord - do you know what the rules are anymore?)
it's a little frightening when I think of the people I know who are packing regularly. however, to a wo/man, I am sure they'd claim to be packing because of bears and similar, not people. I dont know how much of a difference intention makes, aside from my personal comfort zone.
--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
As for the Second Amendment, the Supreme Court has recently gnawed off half the words: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State..." Kaput. We have "well regulated militias'. They are called National Guards. But the personal right to bear arms now has no connection with them. I'm not sure I totally agree with him, but my moderate Republican dad thinks if you want the right to bear guns that mostly exist to shoot people, you ought to put in a stint in a National Guard unit. Otherwise, full speed ahead on gun training and licensing and background checks for such things.
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bean Sidhe
Shipmate
# 11823
|
Posted
I need to fess up re hunting. I was a child in post war austerity. Meat still rationed. My family had a garage business in a country town. Farmer customers would give us stuff they'd shot. Mostly birds and rabbits. I remember the stink when my mother gutted them, and remember spitting out the lead when I ate. But that's a million miles and a million years from urban life now.
[ 08. May 2012, 00:37: Message edited by: Bean Sidhe ]
--------------------
How do you know when a politician is lying?
His lips are moving.
Danny DeVito
Posts: 4363 | From: where the taxis won't go | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bean Sidhe
Shipmate
# 11823
|
Posted
Can I also suggest that, in doing what we do so well here, and all strength to that, maybe we've neglected Malveque's cry of anguish at what's happened?
--------------------
How do you know when a politician is lying?
His lips are moving.
Danny DeVito
Posts: 4363 | From: where the taxis won't go | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
This thread's insane. "It's because of guns!" "No, it's because of mental health service failures!" Newsflash: both statements are true! Our friend wouldn't be dead if the mental health service wasn't so shit, and she also wouldn't be dead if the crazy bastard hadn't had easy access to guns.
AMEN, brother.
Spiff is, IMO, making this into a binary. Which is wronger than a wrong thing that is mistaken.
--------------------
WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
|
Posted
Malveque, I am so sorry. A bullet took something precious from you and you have every right to be angry and upset.
The bullet was shot from the gun of someone who apparently had far reaching mental issues. He was apparently dangerous anyway; and with a gun he was lethal.
Nothing can bring Genevieve back to you here and now. Nothing can bring her back except in spirit to her flock. Her life was one of service to God and her people and the life of the man who killed her was spent in the service of Chaos. It is simply not fair. Not even a little bit.
Is it a sin and a shame that he did what he did? Of course.
Is it a sin and a shame that he had access to a gun and a carry permit? I say so, yes.
Would he have killed her if he didn't have a gun? Does anyone really know? Does it really matter?
I hope you find peace.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
|
Posted
To add to the - somewhat - substantive discussion here:
Guns are inanimate objects. They have no conscience, social or otherwise. They have the potential to provide food. They also have the potential to wreak terrible harm. (Even to the potential food, if you happen to be the potential food.)
The problem is the people who have guns. The people who have guns run the gamut of human beings. There are people who have never shot a gun at a living thing, like me. There are people who hunt for food or sport, or both. As long as they do so responsibly, they are not hurting the surrounding ecosystem and may even be helping it. I acknowledge that the help is not as good as natural predators.
Then there are the people who like to have guns as a hobby. They collect them and trade them and play with them. As long as they do not harm others, their hobby is as legitimate as any other.
There are also people who have guns because they are afraid. What they are afraid of may be real, or not. The fear is real to the person who has it.
Do guns protect? Maybe. If you are willing to shoot to kill and you shoot first and accurately, perhaps. If not, you have given the other person an engraved invitation, and means, to kill you. Ask any real security expert if you have doubts.
Does that mean that guns should be banned? Make up your own minds. What I say is not going to change your minds anyway.
Is the Second Amendment a bad idea? It's too darn late now. You either think it is OK, or not. If you don't like it lobby to get it repealed. Then spit in one hand and wish in the other. Same difference.
Are there reasonable people on both sides of the issue? I think so, yes. Does that mean it might be a bit more complicated than a binary choice? What do you think?
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
our laws here are so loose that I dont think permits are needed at all, just a background check for felonies. (Irish Lord - do you know what the rules are anymore?)
I don't remember exactly (I have no reason to buy any more guns); but last I heard: (for Alaska)
*Long guns are available immediatly to anyone not on 'the list'
*Handguns are available after a 5 day wait, unless you have a concealed carry permit or dealers permit; and they are not available to anyone on 'the list'
*"The List" includes anyone who's been convicted of a felony or charged with domestic violence (even those acquitted of a DV charge are denied the right to own a firearm). I don't remember what the status was on the 'mentally disturbed' crowd.
Some states impose more stringent rules, but I doubt any are more lax.
Of course the flaw in all of this is that anyone can still buy any type of gun privately without having to go through the background check; thus any wacko with some cash can buy just about anything (accept full-auto or silenced).
That's one of the reasons why I'm a proponent of registration.
--------------------
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
I am always deeply shocked and concerned about violence, any violence. Killed by acts of violence are unacceptable. Simple ideas do not solve complex situations, but two things about gun regulation seem obvious.
1. Constitutions, if they allow nutbars to have guns, require changing or restricting. Or are people essentially fundamentalists about constitutions? Are constitutions inerrant, inspired in every word or what?
2. Guns may be used for legitimate purposes in some places and not in others. It seems to me that allowing unrestricted weapons in urban areas is quite different than allowing them in rural areas. So laws and rules need to reflect this.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
quote:
Spiffy lays it on us:
Let's see, we could blame the Second Amendment, but wouldn't it be a hell of a lot easier to blame Ronald Regan's dismantling of the nation's mental health system, plus the Bush Dynasty and the Republican-lead Congress' systematic destruction of our society's safety net that lead a mentally ill man to have to live in a forest for years?
No, wait, easier to blame the guns, because you don't want to face the real reason.
Oh, by the way? Congress is poised to destroy 124 billion with a b dollars worth of SNAP funding this month. You could call them and complain. Or whine about guns some more.
Spiffy, will you marry me?
I want to bear your children. Please?
Is it out of line to mention here that the real gun violence is perpetrated by the Americans through the appalling support we give to the profit-oriented, military-prison-industrial complex that results in a military budget greater than the rest of the world's nations combined? And, in the soul-destroying supply of weapons produced outside the Defense Department budget, which we are willing to gleefully sell to absolutely anyone who can pony up the greenbacks.
This sure smells like it ought to be a Dead Horse. I salute our long-suffering Hell Hosts.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Grow up cupcake. On that thread, you were out of the ballpark trying to make the thread all about you and your issues.
Ah yes. I forgot I was accused of Yorickism.
If you want I can be your buddy and when you start doing it again we can have a safe word. "Armageddon" maybe.
AtB Pyx_e
Oh that's so sweet of you. ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
|
Posted
I like guns, but frankly they've got nothing in terms of generalized lethality on another blameless instrument: automobiles.
Funny thing, though, automotive deaths are going down. The reason is not because of improved screening of driving licenses (ha!), and it's not because of a general improvement in driver training (double-ha!).
It's because humans are recognized to be flawed, so we've worked on making cars intrinsically safer. In all kinds of novel ways, and as those safety mechanisms prove out they become required on all new instances.
Now, I'm not going to deny that I'm strongly in favour of improving standards of screening (including regular functional tests) and for better training (especially mandatory emergency maneuvers and control in poor conditions). But I will hazard a guess that neither of these things would really be as effective with real humans, considering how fundamentally full of suck average humans are. Get a guy a bit tipsy because his girlfriend dumped him and have him madly texting "WTF" to his bros while driving his H3, and some classes aren't going to help fuck-all in the moment of crisis.
And to revert back to the topic at hand, I'm also going to suggest that while better mental health access and screening would be a good thing, they're not going to make much of a dent on the fact that the US is the Darwinistic-gun-death capital of the world. Get a guy drunk because his girlfriend dumped him and have him making emotionally-charged hyperbole that he tries to emote more effectively by brandishing his chromed M1911 (with the poorly-maintained safety), and having theoretical access to therapy and mood stabilizers aren't going to help fuck-all in the moment of clumsiness.
Not that I'm exactly brimming with workable ideas for the US gun situation. Luckily, I don't care about most people enough to be too worried. How you so-called "thou shalt not kill" gun owners manage to reconcile the issue is proof that humanity will probably die out from self-inflicted stupidity. And I kind of hate you for it.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
The functions of law are not to create Utopia, but to minimise the harm that humans are capable of inflicting upon each other.
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
As for the Second Amendment, the Supreme Court has recently gnawed off half the words: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State..." Kaput. We have "well regulated militias'. They are called National Guards. But the personal right to bear arms now has no connection with them. I'm not sure I totally agree with him, but my moderate Republican dad thinks if you want the right to bear guns that mostly exist to shoot people, you ought to put in a stint in a National Guard unit. ...
I was very disappointed by that decision, since this is exactly the point that KenWritez and I (and your dad) agreed on (see my sig). The "castle" arguments carried the day. OliviaG
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
Twice in my life, I've seen someone kill another person with a gun. I'll never completely be able to get that sound out of my head.
I've been threatened with a gun 7 times in my life.
Guns are horrible things.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
|
Posted
Le Roc, I'm with you. Personally, I have supported the organisation for a Gun-Free South Africa for a long time but there are too many illegal weapons in too many hands now for gun-restriction laws to do much good.
A few years ago, I had a gun held to my head for about quarter of an hour in downtown Johannesburg in an attempted carjacking and it was something you can't describe to anyone.
--------------------
“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
These stories terrify me.
I can't see the correlation, though, between vehicle accidents and people driving without due care and attention and gun deaths. Vehicles are made to convey people and goods, not to crash into people or run them over. Guns are made for one purpose only. To shoot living things - whether animals or people.
In the case of handguns, it's people. You wouldn't get very far trying to hunt game with a pistol.
Has anyone got the figures on how many fatal automobile (cars for us Limeys) accidents there are a day across the States?
Would it really tell us something if we compared that to the number of gunshot deaths there are a day. 85. 85 a day.
Even given the size of the US population that's a heck of a lot - and sure, it'll be concentrated on certain hotspots and the geodemographic pattern will vary immensely. I don't see anyone arguing that there aren't socio-economic issues, drug-related issues, wider societal issues at play here. No-one is suggesting otherwise.
But it strikes me as obviating any sense of responsibility by a shrugging of the shoulders and the observation, 'Well, what about cars and trucks , they can kill people ...' or 'What about knives ...'
The fact is that things that are manufactured for no specific purpose other than the shooting of other human beings are in widespread and general circulation and the rest of us look on and think ... 'How the heck ...? Why did they allow themselves to get into this situation in the first place?'
Sure, we'll have our own blindspots and idiosyncracies, our ridiculous class-divisions and consciousness, our irritating and annoying tendencies that hack the rest of the world off ...
But I've never seen or heard a shot fired intentionally at another human being, nor do I ever wish to do so.
As to what the solution is ... well, it'd obviously be impractical for the 'gummint' to go round impounding all the guns or confiscating them ... what a shit-storm that would create.
But something needs to be done. Go figure, as the Americans would say.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
|
Posted
RooK, your comparison of guns and cars, while not lacking in playfulness, black humour and creativity, fails on logic, and certainly, you knew that when you posted it.
Both guns and automobiles can and do cause death each year - true.
The same applys to supplying fire to private homes and workplaces, in the form of natural gas, propane, and electricity.
The difference is in the purpose for which they are constructed, and the way they are regulated.
Cars are constructed to provide for transportation and social outings.
Having care and control of an automobile while impaired, even on private property, is illegal, and cars are registered and restricted to licenced drivers.
Fire is delievered to homes and workplaces to provide heat and cook food.
Guns are constuced to blow holes in living creatures, making the continuation of life in that creature impossible. In urban areas, the living creatures into which those holes will be blown are overwhelmingly human beings.
There is no law against drinking a full bottle of bourbon and then fondling your gun collection.
Removing cars and/or fire from urban areas through legislation would paralyze those areas.
Removing guns from urban areas would be no loss, based on Great Britain's example.
A long-practisng lawyer, Tortuf, who should understand American law and culture better than I, has assured us that restricting gun ownership is impossible. I can only hope that is bullshit.
Drinking and driving are no longer socially acceptable to a degree that they were even generation ago.
Why couldn't that happen with gun ownership in urban areas?
--------------------
TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
These stories terrify me.
I can't see the correlation, though, between vehicle accidents and people driving without due care and attention and gun deaths. Vehicles are made to convey people and goods, not to crash into people or run them over. Guns are made for one purpose only. To shoot living things - whether animals or people.
In the case of handguns, it's people. You wouldn't get very far trying to hunt game with a pistol.
Has anyone got the figures on how many fatal automobile (cars for us Limeys) accidents there are a day across the States?
Would it really tell us something if we compared that to the number of gunshot deaths there are a day. 85. 85 a day.
Even given the size of the US population that's a heck of a lot - and sure, it'll be concentrated on certain hotspots and the geodemographic pattern will vary immensely. I don't see anyone arguing that there aren't socio-economic issues, drug-related issues, wider societal issues at play here. No-one is suggesting otherwise.
But it strikes me as obviating any sense of responsibility by a shrugging of the shoulders and the observation, 'Well, what about cars and trucks , they can kill people ...' or 'What about knives ...'
The fact is that things that are manufactured for no specific purpose other than the shooting of other human beings are in widespread and general circulation and the rest of us look on and think ... 'How the heck ...? Why did they allow themselves to get into this situation in the first place?'
Sure, we'll have our own blindspots and idiosyncracies, our ridiculous class-divisions and consciousness, our irritating and annoying tendencies that hack the rest of the world off ...
But I've never seen or heard a shot fired intentionally at another human being, nor do I ever wish to do so.
As to what the solution is ... well, it'd obviously be impractical for the 'gummint' to go round impounding all the guns or confiscating them ... what a shit-storm that would create.
But something needs to be done. Go figure, as the Americans would say.
Well done Gamaliel.
You've moved on a bit here from your usual soporific diatribe of:
"On the one hand there is this.
But conversely (I can see this converseness because I'm so awesome )
...there is this.
We should always sit on the fence and find the middle way."
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Why thank you Evensong.
You flatter me.
As this is Hell I will break with tradition and tell you to fuck off and mind your own business.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bean Sidhe
Shipmate
# 11823
|
Posted
At least the US could introduce a medical report before a licence is granted. That this crazy living in the woods could legally own firearms is terrifying.
Posts: 4363 | From: where the taxis won't go | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As this is Hell I will break with tradition and tell you to fuck off and mind your own business.
I try and scroll and mind my own business. The mouse just gets stuck sometimes. Your posts are so damn fluffy and long.
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
*eats popcorn and watches Gamaliel and Evensong mud wrestle*
Beats studying that's for sure!
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
|
Posted
TSA, not certain about gun control being a dead horse, because it does not seem like a mystery whose answers will only be revealled in the next world.
Slavery was once a part of American culture to the extent that even the author of the Declaration of Independance owned slaves and bred with at least one of them while still holding her as a slave.
Slavery ended when people decided it was wrong.
While not a dead horse, IMO, I, for one, am and need to be cautious not to make gun control into a crusade, which is not prmitted here.
I hesitated long before starting a similar thread in Purgatory last year, and need to watch that I respect the difference between crusading and participating in this thread.
I despise guns in urban areas, and have a very hard job shutting up about that.
--------------------
TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You wouldn't get very far trying to hunt game with a pistol.
FWIW, folks do hunt with handguns- deer are taken with .357 and .44 magnum handguns fairly often in these parts. The folks I know who choose to hunt this way do so because it it a greater challenge than using a scoped rifle.
As far as the OP, I feel for you. Immensely. But I think the overarching premise is misguided.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
--------------------
We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You've moved on a bit here from [...]
"We should always sit on the fence and find the middle way."
What kind of Anglican are you?
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
|
Posted
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Yerevan:
Gun ownership is exceptionally common in peace-loving, Nobel prize awarding Norway. There are apparently 1.5 million firearms held legally in what is basically a very small country. Yet gun-related crime rates are usually very very low, even by European standards.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is it about the Scandinavian Countries that make them so different from other Western Countries in this regard ?
This really is a question that requires deep investigation if the rest of us are ever to change . That's if it's even possible to change.
I wonder if its just Scandinavia. IIRC all Swiss adult males are part of the Swiss reserves and keep their firearms at home with them. Again not so much gun crime. In fact my home country (the Irish Republic) has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the western world and quite possibly has more gun crime per capita than either Switzerland or Norway thanks to a vicious gangland culture in the some of our major cities. I'm not in a thousand years saying that guns are great things to have around, just that a gun in itself is just an object. Its a fairly toxic mix of ideology, unresolved social issues and terrible laws that make gun ownership particularly deadly in the US.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
FWIW, folks do hunt with handguns- deer are taken with .357 and .44 magnum handguns fairly often in these parts. The folks I know who choose to hunt this way do so because it it a greater challenge than using a scoped rifle....
And thus obviously hunting for fun, not food. "Greater challenge" is for people with full tummies. OliviaG
--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
|
Posted
handguns - it's not always about it being more of a challenge. handguns are much easier to use in many instances. when you're packing in the backcountry because of bears and such, it's pretty damned hard to haul a rifle around compared to a .44 or .357. imagine a big pack with everything you need on it. a shoulder holster or even a hip holster allows for better weight distribution and much easier storage. also - a handgun is way quicker to draw in you're in a bind. Bears aren't great for warnings.
My mom kept a 30.06 for hunting, but when we were going berry picking or doing anything else in the backcountry where we might have beastie issues, she took the .357. a rifle just isn't practical.
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
There is no law against drinking a full bottle of bourbon and then fondling your gun collection.
bet me. being over the legal driving limit (.08 BAC) and being in physical possession of a firearm is a great way to get 3 hots and a cot courtesy of the state government, here.
--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Too long and too fluffy?
Yes, my posts can be.
Try a short one, Evensong. Fuck off.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
|
Posted
Gamaliel, that is undoubtedly your shortest post ever. It is also undoubtedly my favourite ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
In the case of handguns, it's people. You wouldn't get very far trying to hunt game with a pistol.
point of information - the moose I've been recently feeding my children with was taken down with a .357.
not optimal, but it was what was at hand at the time. the moose was hit by a car and suffering and my friend gave it mercy. he carries his revolver for self-defense. against wildlife. non-human variety.
the handgun vs. rifle concept, just like the urban vs rural concept, is where these discussions always fall down, and why one blanket gun ban IMO is doomed for this very large and varied country. you can't draw such simple rules and call it good. and so the debate gets nasty, and nothing gets done.
the "rural/urban divide" is a big issue here. a while back they tried to say that only residents of "rural" areas would qualify for subsistence hunting. this doesn't work for a couple of reasons. first off, there are plenty of people living in Anchorage or Fairbanks who rely on hunting to feed their families. secondly, how the lawmakers define rural and urban is flawed. I'm living in a little village that is part of a borough that includes urban areas - but because we're in the same borough, I'm considered "urban". if we couldn't hunt, here, there's a lot of people would go hungry.
so rural/urban as an "easy answer" doesn't work. as I've said above, taking away all handguns would frankly put people who spent time in the backcountry in danger. so the handgun/rifle concept doesn't work.
personally, I struggle with this a lot because I don't think the exceptions to my way of life in a very small, sparsely populated corner of the country should set policy. at the same time, if these "easy answer" bans were to go through, lives would be in danger. not as many lives as are in danger from gang violence, probably. but these lives are dear to me - one of them is mine.
somewhere along the way we're going to have to come to grips with how diverse we are as a country. yes, most people are urban. but making laws based on that majority will cause harm to the minority who live in other places. we already have a big problem here of people leaving the villages in droves for the cities, because village life is getting less and less sustainable. is that really our solution? eradicate a way of life because it doesn't apply to the majority? God, I hope not.
and again, I keep coming back to guns=tools. what we have here is a huge, ugly, cultural problem. the mental health system (or lack thereof) is a part of it. I'm sure there's an argument for "family values" being another part. and deep poverty, and the drug trade, and kids being raised by video games and reality TV.
taking away the guns is the easy, simple, black and white solution to a very complex and nuanced problem. it's not a solution, really. it's an easy target, sure, but it's not a fix. and it could cause harm.
--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
|
Posted
Oh look our post-evanglical baby is fully born.
--------------------
It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
FWIW, folks do hunt with handguns- deer are taken with .357 and .44 magnum handguns fairly often in these parts. The folks I know who choose to hunt this way do so because it it a greater challenge than using a scoped rifle....
And thus obviously hunting for fun, not food. "Greater challenge" is for people with full tummies. OliviaG
Let's talk about all those people who keep guns in their night tables, beside their beds, OliviaG.
That must be in case a deer comes for them in the night, kicks down their bedroom door with sharp little hooves, and threatens their lives with big sharp deer teeth.
--------------------
TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
|
Posted
you really are a fucking idiot, silver faux. I was going to write, "are you really that moronic?" and then I realized that yes, yes you are.
Generally - I have wanted for all of my adult life to be able to have a real discussion on this topic. I keep hoping that here on the Ship we could maybe could get away from the emotional, knee-jerk, black and white reactions to the gun debate. apparently I give you guys too much credit.
yeah yeah, RooK, I know. I really should know better by now.
--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
|
Posted
comet, whether it helps or not, I apologize for my flippant comment.
This is an emotional issue for me; obviously, it is for a lot of people.
I will shut up now and just listen.
--------------------
TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
|
Posted
(to silver faux - I'm assuming I'll crosspost)
motherfucker - why'd you have to go and be all nice and civilized? asshole.
yeah. okay. I apologize too. for the name calling. and the ugly assumptions about your intelligence. and the further name calling even. hell, I'll even apologize for at least one future name calling.
It's a big issue for me, also. I understand where the flippant comes from. I hope you also understand that the hunting side of the debate is not in the same world as the .38 under the pillow people. (please say yes or I'll have to hurt you)
my problem is that I've also lost people to violence. including guns. I, like you, SF, have watched someone die of a gunshot wound in front of me. like you, I was a teenager. it burns into your brain and never goes away.
but the other moments that are burned into my brain (and from the same time period) are the lady who I found who was beat to death by fists; and a few years later the lady I tried to save and couldn't after she rolled her car in my front yard.
and there's the ones I didn't physically witness but was still close to - my babysitter when I was six who was raped, beaten unconscious, and left to freeze to death outside. the girl I knew in college who was stabbed to death and left in the shower on the floor I was staying on. My uncle who was shot in the face for the crime of loving a woman who's ex husband went off his meds. the obscene amount of suicides I've been close to (and only a couple were involving a gun. not sure of amounts. what sucks is that there are so many I'd have to do a tally.) and more and more and more.
and what I see - the sum total of those branded images and memories - is a culture of violence and dysfunction and pain that is not being addressed. I dont see the gun, or the car, or the knives, or the fists. I don't even see the alcohol or the drugs. I see broken hearts.
I want us to remove the butter knives, yes, to paraphrase a brilliant moment from Patdys on another thread. But more, I want to find a way to reach the broken hearts. I want children to grow up feeling loved and not feeling desperate. I WANT TO FIX THIS but I don't know how.
yes, let's take away the butter knives, okay. but let's not pretend that that is the problem. let's please please please not ignore the real problem.
[ 08. May 2012, 18:14: Message edited by: comet ]
--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
And thus obviously hunting for fun, not food. "Greater challenge" is for people with full tummies. OliviaG
Recreational hunters, true- but all that I know do indeed eat what they kill. It's not as if they're shooting animals and leaving them to rot.
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
and what I see - the sum total of those branded images and memories - is a culture of violence and dysfunction and pain that is not being addressed. I dont see the gun, or the car, or the knives, or the fists. I don't even see the alcohol or the drugs. I see broken hearts.
I want us to remove the butter knives, yes, to paraphrase a brilliant moment from Patdys on another thread. But more, I want to find a way to reach the broken hearts. I want children to grow up feeling loved and not feeling desperate. I WANT TO FIX THIS but I don't know how.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
--------------------
We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
|
Posted
dammit, comet, I was planning to shut up.
Yeah, lots of suicide, high school buddies, friends, using guns, using cars, a nursing student using pills, a baby in the extended family dying of cancer, all those images in all of our minds; and I called some of them up in yours with my flipancy.
And if I called some horrifying memories up in your mind, others probably also had the flashbacks, the sadness, the buried pain come shrieking back from beyond walls not nearly secure enough.
I remember, as a hospital chaplain in a large hospital, dealing with death often several times a shift; for most of the family members, they, at that moment, were the only ones I had ever sat with as they felt the horrifying sting of violent death; if they suspected otherwise, I probably wouldn't have been anything other than another shirt and tie drifting past them on the worst day (usually, night) of their lives.
I remember accompanying a family member to the morgue to identify the body of a family member, killed in a senseless car crash. It was beyond recognition, and I stayed there with her grieving relative while she wept her heart out, and I missed an interview with a search committee for a call to ministry which I really, really wanted.
And then, perhaps in fury, I turn to something that sounds so simple - gun control - and I want to scream. So I do. And it doesn't help.
And I need to shut up. Now.
[ 08. May 2012, 18:45: Message edited by: Silver Faux ]
--------------------
TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
|
Posted
maybe we both need to scream, Silver Faux. maybe we all do.
maybe a little healthy screaming is the start.
you comfort the broken hearts; I tell their stories. we both have the be the "grown ups" for others - I suspect we both are happy to do so and are honored by the trust to do so. But when you're the bucket catching the runoff, sometimes you need to unload too or you'll overflow.
I do that, often (and probably not in a healthy way) by being a bitter bitch. I have no room for high ground. so go ahead, be flippant and pissy and bitter. just don't let that be the end of your reaction. siphon off the bile and then take the next step.
whatever the fuck that is.
somebody, tell me what that is.
--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
if we could find a fair way of taking away guns that are meant for people but allowing the guns that are meant for food, I'd be fine with that.
That's pretty much how it works in Britain.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
I wonder if its just Scandinavia. IIRC all Swiss adult males are part of the Swiss reserves and keep their firearms at home with them.
I have a vague memory that the rate of death by gunshot in Norway is quite a lot higher than in Britain, and Switzerland higher still.
Also it is not true that all Swiss adult males are in the army, and its not true that all those that are keep guns at home. Conscripts have to be mentally and physically fit. Mentally ill people, those convicted of a crime, even recent immigrants and members of certain political parties, can be excluded from the system. And those who are in it have to pass a 21-week basic training.
Its almost the oppossite of the US system. In America the idea seems to be that who ever wants to have a gun can have one, and if you don't want to have onw you don't. In Switzerland its compulsory for some, forbidden for others. And the government gets to choose which group you are in.
Oh, and when you are doing army service, your employer can't fire you. I bet American business would love that.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
if we could find a fair way of taking away guns that are meant for people but allowing the guns that are meant for food, I'd be fine with that.
That's pretty much how it works in Britain.
yes I know, and in a perfect world that's the answer. there's more going on here.
As most of my fellah 'mericans know - there's NO WAY it could happen right now. There's a small but very noisy bunch of nutballs who are just waiting for government to take any step in that regard. I know - my sister married one of them.
These people are already on edge - the fact that we have a black president who is not reactionary has them terrified. Their little circles of misinformation heated to a frenzy even before Obama was elected. Their sole concern- Obama will take away the guns.
so they're stocking up. guns. ammo. legal and illegal. Purposefully unregistered so the evil government won't come after them. They are terrified of some vague notion of a totalitarian state (the ones I know couldn't even pronounce totalitarian, but that's what they mean)
if some lawmaker were to introduce a bill in this current climate that takes away people's guns in any way and for any reason, there would be riots. These are people who are ignorant, scared, and very heavily armed. and in good communication with each other. they scare the fuck out of me.
they are not the majority of gun owners - not even close. but they are ready to be very unforgettable in very short order.
The only way I can see something like this happening that would not be disastrous is if it started with education. like what has happened with tobacco. a long, organized, careful campaign of education. and dealing with the social ills I yammered on about above.
The reality is that banning guns is just not possible right now without epic tragedy. I can see it happening someday; I don't believe it's possible right now.
Great Britain is a different place with a different history and different culture. We are big, and spread out, and encompass a lot of ground and a lot of subcultures and just simply a lot of people.
WWII was a big, very personal, very real threat to you guys. the aftermath of that led to a lot of changes that make sense within the context of where you were. Gun control may not have come directly out of that (I frankly don't know the history enough) but it seems to be a part of that overall social change.
We are not a little island somewhere. it's almost impossible for the entire country to feel that kind of threatened all at once (oddly enough, 9/11 came close). I think it helps make big, societal changing legislation if the whole populace is united due to an outside threat. (or another reason? I'd love another reason)
After 9/11 the country was okay with huge changes in airport security. we even allowed crazy bullshit like the Patriot Act (that's another thread) because we were threatened.
But there's damn little that unites a crazy many millions who can live 5 or 6 time zones away from each other, who can be eating fresh oranges off the tree on one side of the country while snowshoeing on the other.
people who's soul food can include collard greens or yankee potroast or enchiladas or pad thai or nut stew or fried plantains. people who come from so many backgrounds and so many histories and live in so many places.
I feel just as "alien" to the culture of, say, New England or the Deep South, as I do to the culture of England or Australia or France.
this is a big fucking place. to get us all under one tent on anything is really kind of amazing - it's amazing anything ever gets done in Washington. But something like gun control, that feels so invasive, and steps on the constitution - which many hold more sacred than the bible or other holy book of their choice - I don't even know how it could be done.
--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Aelred of Rievaulx
Shipmate
# 16860
|
Posted
I've lived in a place with unrestricted guns - I never EVER want to live in such a place again. It was extremely dangerous.
Listening to you, Comet, sounds like a lot of rather tortured special pleading to me.
Of course it is difficult. But it is a fact that guns are designed to kill and main - that is what their sole purpose is. How can we love the beastly things? They may possibly be necessary - but they are more often than not, even in the "best" of hands, bringers of horror misery and death.
So having prety much unrestricted gun ownership in the 21C suggests to me that:
1. You guys need to amend that "sacred" Constitution of yours and re-educate people to understand that these lethal things are a privilege not a "right";
2. Until you do lots of people will die uneccessarily
Over to you lot.
This side of the Atlantic is safer - I love it that our police do NOT habitually carry firearms.
--------------------
In friendship are joined honor and charm, truth and joy, sweetness and good-will, affection and action. And all these take their beginning from Christ, advance through Christ, and are perfected in Christ.
Posts: 136 | From: English Midlands | Registered: Jan 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Comet, I know this is Hell, but I for one feel very moved by your posts and understand your predicament and - to some extent - the complexity of the issues you've raised. We don't have anything comparable her e so it is hard for us to comment. The biggest thing we're likely to come across in the woods is a red deer or a recently re-introduced (accidentally) wild boar and they tend to run away from people rather than attack them.
I concede the point that a revolver is more effective than a rifle in certain circumstances - such as the one with the injured moose. But I wouldn't have thought a handgun would be that effective in most hunting scenarios - although I can see the value of the quick-on-the-draw thing if a bear's after you.
Anyway, all that's detail. As we all seem to be agreed, there are all sorts of social/economic, geodemographic and even climatic influences and factors.
It's a bit like the story of the Irish guy asked for directions out in the sticks who replied, 'Well, I wouldn't start from here, Sor ...'
But you are where you are. I would have thought that if any of this could have been anticipated then a way could have been found to make some kind of exceptions and caveats for States like Alaska and Wyoming and so on where there are stupendously wide open spaces, whilst introducing what would look to the rest of us as more sensible controls in urban areas. But perhaps that wouldn't have been practical either.
I've got no downer on the US. Admittedly I've only visited New York - and was impressed - so although I do carp and tease a bit I'm always willing to listen to voices like yours who know what things are like on the ground and how this stuff works.
All I can say, in a very unhellish way is ...
And God bless America. You'll need it.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
At least the US could introduce a medical report before a licence is granted. That this crazy living in the woods could legally own firearms is terrifying.
The US government does not issue gun permits; the state governments do. I agree that mental health records need to be carefully checked before a permit is issued. Virginia started doing this after the Virginia Tech shootings.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
IIRC all Swiss adult males are part of the Swiss reserves and keep their firearms at home with them. Again not so much gun crime. ... Its a fairly toxic mix of ideology, unresolved social issues and terrible laws that make gun ownership particularly deadly in the US.
And IIRC when a Swiss man does use his gun to kill somebody, the Swiss go through a fair bit of soul-searching about the wisdom or otherwise of having so many guns in homes - but I don't think they have done anything yet.
--------------------
"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
