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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Pseudo environmentalism
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Hydrogen fuel cells are the future, not batteries. Look out for the GreenGT H2 experimental car running at Le Mans next year to see why.
Ah hydrogen, the amusing bullshit spun up hopefully by greedy energy companies to keep their expensive-but-profitable exclusive supply arrays. If you think batteries are going to have to be magical to get light/efficient enough, that's nothing compared to the eldritch horror of storing energy as hydrogen.
Pure electric is the future. Hybrid is the path to get there for longer-range needs now/near future. Anybody who says any different simply isn't paying attention.
thanks for this, RooK. I kind of thought so, but as I only took physics classes for fun in my spare time (shaddap, peanut gallery!) I don't really know enough to definitively say so. I assumed there was something about the hydrogen process I was missing.
considering you're part of that world, I will now switch my assumption to being that you know what you're talking about.
"I have this friend who really knows his shit...."
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
thanks for this, RooK. I kind of thought so, but as I only took physics classes for fun in my spare time (shaddap, peanut gallery!) I don't really know enough to definitively say so. I assumed there was something about the hydrogen process I was missing.
considering you're part of that world, I will now switch my assumption to being that you know what you're talking about.
"I have this friend who really knows his shit...."
In layman's terms there are two basic problems with hydrogen.
1: It's strictly an energy storage method. You literally can get no more energy out by burning hydrogen than you put in to break up the water. You dig oil out of the ground - but all hydrogen is is a giant and complex battery that requires a power source from something (nuclear, coal, gas, wind, hydro solar - I don't care). But hydrogen simply
2: Hydrogen's an utter pain to store for several reasons.
2a: Hydrogen's energy density by volume is pathetic - even if you have your hydrogen stored as a liquid you still need three times the volume in your fuel tank that you'd need of petrol. If you want to use hydrogen gas, just give up now. Your car will end up looking like a blimp and still not go very far past the end of your drive. (The space shuttle uses liquid hydrogen because weight is more of an issue than volume).
2b: That liquid hydrogen didn't sound too bad? I mean quadrupuling the size of your tank isn't a serious problem? The thing is making liquid hydrogen is incredibly hard. You literally can't do it at room temperature. You have to be at thirteen atmospheres of presure and once you've got there you need to take the whole thing down to 33 degrees Kelvin (-240 Celsius or almost -400 Farenheight). By comparison this is significantly colder than liquid nitrogen.
2c: And solid hydrogen would be hideous for an engine - solid hydrogen won't transport to the engine easily. In addition to all the problems keeping it solid. It's back to throwing another lump of literally freezing cold coal into the engine.
2c: How about gaseous hydrogen? This is the only vaguely plausible option in there. But storing a gas is always fun - hydrogen molecules are small enough that it makes making things airtight look simple. You then need to up-engineer the entire engine to this standard. And doing some back of the envelope calculations (wiki seems to be down), Hydrogen has 2.5 times the energy density by mass of natural gas. But assuming natural gas = methane (the most favourable assumption for the gas), that same mass of hydrogen will take eight times the volume to store as the gas - or you need a volume 3.2 times the size you'd need of calor gas. How far do you think your car's going to go on camping gas? Cutting a long story short one cubic foot of hydrogen is worth about a hundredth of the same volume of petrol/gas.
So. To sum up.
1: You're getting nothing out of hydrogen that a rechargable battery won't do.
2: You've hideous engineering problems - neither solid, liquid, nor gas are sensible to store or run an engine with.
I'm sure I missed plenty out. (RooK?). But those are two fundamental reasons the 'Hydrogen Economy' is a chimera.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
The storing of gaseous H₂ is even worse than you might think. Because molecular hydrogen is so small that it actually can pass through the crystal lattice of solid steel. That's right - even a perfectly sealed tank will leak hydrogen gas at a non-trivial rate. When they make hydrogen tanks, they "saturate" them with hydrogen so that the interstitial spaces are pre-soaked with H₂ so that the loss rate is more linear to start off with. Of course, the ionic transfer causes embrittlement for most engineering metals, so you'll be needing new high-pressure tanks regularly anyway.
Just imagine it, all you paranoid types, how quietly gleeful energy companies must be at the thought of a fuel that people can't possibly keep on their own.
Honestly, portable nuclear is more likely than hydrogen. Say, have I ranted about thorium reactors lately?
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
When you say rant.....?
You mean you're agin it? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
Ah yes...
"As a green hotel chain and in the interests of conserving our precious environment we will try to manipulate you out of guilt to reuse your towels.
But please don't ask us if we have any other form of green initiatives such as water recycling, reduction in embodied energy, use of sustainable energy forms, carbon footprint reduction or thermal efficiencies for heating and cooling. Where's the buck in that?"
Travelodge (UK chain of budget hotels) used to suggest linen re-use as 'Number thirty-four of the fifty things we do to save the planet' or something like that. I was sorely tempted to ask what the other forty-nine were.
[ 21. June 2012, 06:58: Message edited by: Yerevan ]
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
quote:
Ah yes...
"As a green hotel chain and in the interests of conserving our precious environment we will try to manipulate you out of guilt to reuse your towels.
But please don't ask us if we have any other form of green initiatives such as water recycling, reduction in embodied energy, use of sustainable energy forms, carbon footprint reduction or thermal efficiencies for heating and cooling. Where's the buck in that?"
Travelodge (UK chain of budget hotels) used to suggest linen re-use as 'Number thirty-four of the fifty things we do to save the planet' or something like that. I was sorely tempted to ask what the other forty-nine were.
I had a look on Travellodge's website and found their environment page.
Lots of worthy stuff, but nothing about leaving grubby sheets on your bed.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Beethoven
Ship's deaf genius
# 114
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The government agency I work for celebrated its 160th anniversary today (for economy's sake we shared it with the Diamond Jubilee).
In addition to the usual crappy pens, shopping bags, in unbleached linen were given away. They arrived in cardboard boxes. That OK folks?
Sounds ideal to me. Plastic pens to go to landfill, accompanied by a 'green' bag. The perfect balance for a pseudo-environmentalist ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Who wants to be a rock anyway?
toujours gai!
Posts: 1309 | From: Here (and occasionally there) | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beethoven:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The government agency I work for celebrated its 160th anniversary today (for economy's sake we shared it with the Diamond Jubilee).
In addition to the usual crappy pens, shopping bags, in unbleached linen were given away. They arrived in cardboard boxes. That OK folks?
Sounds ideal to me. Plastic pens to go to landfill, accompanied by a 'green' bag. The perfect balance for a pseudo-environmentalist
I've just had a look at my pen. It says 'MATER-BI(TM) = 100% Biodegradable'. If you can trust that (it certainly looks and feels like plastic) then that explains the poor quality.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
When you say rant.....?
You mean you're agin it?
I meant rant that they're not implemented as the safe, reliable answer to energy problems for the last four fucking decades because they were not good for making nuclear weapons as a by-product. How is it that we're not more vigorously pursuing these instead of squabbling over bits of oil-and-blood-soaked sand?
[ 21. June 2012, 14:03: Message edited by: RooK ]
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Well, how many conspiracy theories can you balance on a point of a needle?
Or sheer bloody ignorance.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
Around here (East Bay - e.g., Oakland, Berkeley, CA) they've been introducing buses that run on hydrogen. As far as I can tell, it's stored along the roof of the bus. I haven't ridden on one going uphill, so I can't speak for whether that's a factor at all. (Gasoline engines in buses have a horrible time going uphill. That's why in San Francisco, they have electric buses powered by overhead cables. When for some reason they have to substitute gasoline engine buses (repairs being made on the overhead cables?) they make me feel exhausted just riding on the poor things trying to get uphill!
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
We have them already too - we call them "cities".
London in fact. Or Detroit.
Your point being...?
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
It's true: if you have a vehicle the size of a bus, you can carry enough hydrogen for slow-speed rambling inside city limits. If it's a fuel cell vehicle, it's basically acting as a very clumsy battery for the electric motors. If it's being burned in an internal combustion engine, it'll go a bit faster/further, but will wheeze up those hills just as badly as the diesels¹ you were on.
The push for hydrogen was loudest in the late 90's and early 00's, when Ballard made their fuel cell breakthrough and a couple automakers² made limited-run hydrogen-burners. But, if you'll step into my paranoia-powered Way-Back Machine™, I'll take you back to the 1890's when the various mining concerns persuaded³ the nascent automotive industry to use their very very very cheap waste material (gasoline) instead of the obvious default - methanol.
¹ You probably haven't been on a gasoline-fueled bus, unless it was a "short bus" of the ilk used to haul developmentally disabled.
² Most notably: BMW and Honda. But a bunch of companies got in on the act, and some haven't stopped yet. I'm amused to imagine why.
³ Meaning: perfectly legal financial incentives mostly. Mostly.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Diesel buses do fine in plenty of cities as hilly or hillier than San Francisco. There are plenty of good reasons for using trams getting power from overhead lines, but going up hills isn't one of them.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Diesel buses do fine in plenty of cities as hilly or hillier than San Francisco. There are plenty of good reasons for using trams getting power from overhead lines, but going up hills isn't one of them.
Are you arguing against the fact that electric motors typically have higher specific torque than diesel engines? Or are you witlessly defending the probably-wrong accusation of "wheezing" with the bland assertion of "[they] do fine"?
Master debater, you are.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
How is it that we're not more vigorously pursuing these instead of squabbling over bits of oil-and-blood-soaked sand?
Interesting! Here's a TEDx talk on the subject, and here's a UK lobby group headed by Baroness Worthington.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
]Are you arguing against the fact that electric motors typically have higher specific torque than diesel engines? Or are you witlessly defending the probably-wrong accusation of "wheezing" with the bland assertion of "[they] do fine"?
I;m pointing out that if someone thinks that San Francisco is such a special place that ordinary buses won't work there then they are just plain wrong. Either that or whoever runs buses there has been sold some shite. Because there are a lot of hillier cities that manage to use buses effectively. Probably even in America.
Its a bit like the Americans and Canadians who post here and say that the reason they have no serious intercity passenger railways in the US east coast or southern Ontario is because the topography worse than in Europe. Obvioulsy they'e never heard of the fucking Alps.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Most notably: BMW
Apropos of nothing, but I thought you’d like this.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
It's not the sheets they're talking about, it's the towels. In the olden days, all towels were changed every day, even the ones that hadn't been touched. The new system is if the towels are on the rack, leave them. If the towels are in the tub or sink, exchange them. Sheets are still changed 1 or 2 times a week. How often do you change your sheets at home?
My pseudoenvironmental piss-off is that more and more produce such as tomatoes, peppers, apples, etc. comes with individual stickers. This is because there are so many varieties now available to meet consumer demand: there's organic, there's locally sourced, there's the imported and domestic, there's 18 different kinds of apples, and so forth. So now rather than produce codes --- because there would be way too many, and there's no desire for an argument at the till over which apples those are --- we have to have a fucking sticker on each fucking apple. That's a lot of stickers.
It's a matter of changing the parameters of the discourse, as they say. As long as any form of environmentalism is considered a "consumer choice", we will have this sort of bullshit. The idea that we can shop our way to a sustainable economy is ridiculous. Either we do it from the ground up, cradle-to-grave, product life-cycle, repair rather than replace, modify how we distribute goods to economize on transport and packaging, stop using landfills, etc. FOR EVERYTHING WE USE or we're just hastening the inevitable. OliviaG
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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