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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Fun and Games with Pastor Fred in Westboro
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
That is, to me, the problem with a rigorous predestination doctrine, especially if it is the core of your belief. It reduces Christianity to pure fatalism. If we cannot change our destiny, or anyone elses destiny, then it doesn't matter. I may as well be the biggest sinner I can, and have all of the fun I want, because it has no effect on my eternal destiny. If I am chosen to be saved, I can fuck anyone and anything I want, and it cannot be changed. If I am chosen to perish, I can fuck anyone and anything I want and it makes no difference.
So that then turns on its head, because if it doesn't matter, how come the Phelps's know who is going to be saved? If, as they seem to think, it is about being a member of their church, then they should be encouraging people in, surely, or they are deliberatly condemning people to hell.
So it makes no sense to me, even by their own logic.
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Blog
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
You make the assumption that religious fuckwits have to be logical.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Stoker
Shipmate
# 11939
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
That is, to me, the problem with a rigorous predestination doctrine, especially if it is the core of your belief. It reduces Christianity to pure fatalism. If we cannot change our destiny, or anyone elses destiny, then it doesn't matter. I may as well be the biggest sinner I can, and have all of the fun I want, because it has no effect on my eternal destiny. If I am chosen to be saved, I can fuck anyone and anything I want, and it cannot be changed. If I am chosen to perish, I can fuck anyone and anything I want and it makes no difference.
So that then turns on its head, because if it doesn't matter, how come the Phelps's know who is going to be saved? If, as they seem to think, it is about being a member of their church, then they should be encouraging people in, surely, or they are deliberatly condemning people to hell.
So it makes no sense to me, even by their own logic.
Classic mistake. Don't turn your back on a doctrine because it is practiced by someone you dislike/ find repulsive.
The doctrine of predestination is woven throughout the Bible's story, but it always goes hand in hand with the doctrine of man's moral responsibility. The two are inseperable in scripture and they unashamedley work side by side.
The phelp's may have twisted and perverted it, but the Biblical doctrine is true.
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Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stoker:
The doctrine of predestination is woven throughout the Bible's story, but it always goes hand in hand with the doctrine of man's moral responsibility.
That's bullshit even without the Phelps clan taking it all the way to eleven. The idea that someone can be responsible for acting morally even though their eternal destination is fixed and cannot be changed is laughable. If it's all decided anyway, then what's the point?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
The doctrine of predestination is subtle. Way too subtle for the Phelpsians and too subtle for (I believe) the vast majority of us. Me for a start.
One day we'll all know and it will seem very simple indeed. Until then there's not much point worrying about something we can't influence and don't understand, beyond the desire to beat each other over the head with passages of scripture that, to our simple minds, oppose the view held by another. Let's deal with man's moral responsibility for now.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Until then there's not much point worrying about something we can't influence ... Let's deal with man's moral responsibility for now.
If we can't influence it, why should we keep trying to do so by worrying about our moral responsibilities?
SC is right about this doctrine, however subtle it may be.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If we can't influence it, why should we keep trying to do so by worrying about our moral responsibilities?
Because acting with moral responsibility makes the world a better place.
If you recall, the ten commandments were given to God's chosen people after salvation had been wrought in escaping oppression in Egypt.
Saved first, given ethical commands on how to live (for the benefit of the community) second.
[ 31. May 2012, 13:25: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If we can't influence it, why should we keep trying to do so by worrying about our moral responsibilities?
Because acting with moral responsibility makes the world a better place.
Why should I care about making the world a better place (as opposed to making the world a better place for me, and fuck the rest of you) if it doesn't benefit me in the long term?
[ 31. May 2012, 13:33: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Because if you're a follower of Christ its not all about you.
Thats why he died. Remember? He gave his life for others.
The cross is the denial of self-interest. It is the denial of selfishness. It is total self-emptying.
And we, as his disciples, are called to do the same. For the benefit of all.
[ 31. May 2012, 13:40: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
No. Fred is no Calvinist. I don't want to be associated with a doctrine of hate.
Have you read Calvin's Institutes? There's barely a page there in which the man himself does not abuse some or other of his opponents as stupid, insane and evil. The book is so thick with loathing, one's shoes squelch as one reads it.
I agree that being an intolerant, narrow-minded, choleric bigot isn't a requirement of Calvinism, but it certainly does not prevent it. Fred's a Calvinist. He's also a Christian. He doesn't stop being those things just because he is also an arsehole.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Have you read Calvin's Institutes? There's barely a page there in which the man himself does not abuse some or other of his opponents as stupid, insane and evil. The book is so thick with loathing, one's shoes squelch as one reads it.
Your copy must have been stolen and replaced with some other book. Its long-winded, pedantic, often boring, serious-minded, occasionally cynical, once or twice even funny, but there's not a lot of abuse in it.
Now Martin Luther, there was a theologian with a sharp tongue in his head...
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stoker:
Classic mistake. Don't turn your back on a doctrine because it is practiced by someone you dislike/ find repulsive.
Believe me, after 10+ years on the ship, I would be completely without any beliefs whatsoever if I followed this.
I expressly said a rigorous predestination, as a core part of your beliefs. It is far more subtle, and far from core. In fact, it is one of those doctrines that does not affect me here and now, because here and now I want to work for the good of all. I don't give a fuck whether they are predestined for heaven or hell, if I can make their life now better.
The fact that some groups pick up on irrelevant doctrines, and use them to justify their beliefs of hate just makes them complete aresholes. In fact, anyone who takes small parts of the bible, and focus on them to the exclusion of the rest are fucked up.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
I agree that being an intolerant, narrow-minded, choleric bigot isn't a requirement of Calvinism, but it certainly does not prevent it.
Neither do Arminianism of Catholicism, or any-other-ism prevent one from being an intolerant, narrow-minded, choleric bigot. On the other hand Calvinism does not prevent one from being appalled by the intolerant, narrow-minded, choleric bigotry of Phelps and Co.
I was distancing myself* from comments that seemed to say that Calvinism led to Phelps's bigotry. Someone like Phelps would be a bigot whatever church doctrine he associated with.
(* I'm more TUIP than TULIP anyway.)
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Schroedinger's cat: Believe me, after 10+ years on the ship, I would be completely without any beliefs whatsoever if I followed this.
Including atheism? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Your copy must have been stolen and replaced with some other book. Its long-winded, pedantic, often boring, serious-minded, occasionally cynical, once or twice even funny, but there's not a lot of abuse in it.
Rather than go through the whole thing, I picked 10 pages at random and checked how far I had to read before finding abuse.
Results: p.152 – disagreement with C's views on Satan is a “delirious delusion” (p.155)
p.160 – disagreement with C's views on the problem of evil is “impiety...subterfuge...depraved...an evasion”.
p.243 – disagreements with C's views on predestination are “depraved ideas…pestilential errors…stupidity”
p.257 – disagreement with C's views on God's will come from those “blinded by a love of evil speaking”
p.281 – disagreement with C's views on free will is “impious blasphemy” from “enemies of divine grace” (p.283)
p.335 – Catholic practice regarding bishops is “effrontery and stupidity” (p.336)
p.346 – a particular interpretation of “love thy neighbour as thyself” is one that “sophists have stupidly dreamed” (p.358)
p.486 – Catholic monks are an “evil”, “useless and “perilous” example, acting “as if in hatred of the human race”
p.594 – Catholic views of the sacraments are “superstitious”, “evil”, come from “gross and carnal ideas” and make sacraments “an execrable idol”
p.645 – Catholic practice regarding priests is “pernicious”, “superstitious” and makes them “apostates from Christ”.
That is, 6 times out of 10, I didn't have to turn the page to find abuse. I had to look at 28 pages to find 10 containing one or more abusive passages, and that result was heavily influenced by the fact that about half of those pages (346-358) were part of a relatively uncontroversial discourse on the ten commandments, where the invective was directed against sin in general, rather than opposing Christian views.
Abuse is a very common rhetorical feature of the Institutes. Sometimes, it is even justified abuse. The book is nowhere near as abusive as Fred Phelps's output, of course, but I think my findings support the contention that expressing contempt and loathing of one's opponents does not disqualify a Christian communicator from being a Calvinist.
(And, to Balaam, no I'm not suggesting that Fred is an arsehole because he is a Calvinist. I am sure his views are as odious to other Calvinists as they are to anyone else. But he is one, just as he is a Christian, and so we are associated with him whether we like it or not).
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Because if you're a follower of Christ...
Yeah, that's where your argument falls down. Under rigid double predestination what's the point of being a follower of Christ?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
there's not a lot of abuse in it.
Bollocks. When Tony Lane produced a shorter paperback version for Hodder he stripped out a lot of the abuse. The book's about 85% shorter than the original.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Schroedinger's cat: Believe me, after 10+ years on the ship, I would be completely without any beliefs whatsoever if I followed this.
Including atheism?
He might just be left with agnosticism. Atheism is way too certain.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Because if you're a follower of Christ...
Yeah, that's where your argument falls down. Under rigid double predestination what's the point of being a follower of Christ?
Ah right. Sorry. Didn't realise you were talking about moral responsibility in terms of double predestination.
But I don't think Sioni Sais was either.
Personally I think predestination is a load of crap.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Didn't realise you were talking about moral responsibility in terms of double predestination.
You can't have read much of the thread, then. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
No I haven't.
But like I said I was responding to what Sioni Sais said and you were responding to him.
He was separating out predestination and moral responsibility.
i.e. we don't know about the former so lets just worry about the latter.
Sounds eminently sensible to me.
But yeah, if the only reason to be morally responsibly is to go to heaven when you die then there's not much point if you believe in predestination.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But yeah, if the only reason to be morally responsibly is to go to heaven when you die
It's not the only reason, but it is the only persuasive one.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
No I haven't.
But like I said I was responding to what Sioni Sais said and you were responding to him.
He was separating out predestination and moral responsibility.
i.e. we don't know about the former so lets just worry about the latter.
Sounds eminently sensible to me.
But yeah, if the only reason to be morally responsibly is to go to heaven when you die then there's not much point if you believe in predestination.
Thanks Evensong, but if moral responsibility gives us eternal life that's awfully close to justification by works.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Schroedinger's cat: Believe me, after 10+ years on the ship, I would be completely without any beliefs whatsoever if I followed this.
Including atheism?
Some of the atheists on the ship are aresholes too. Talking of arseholes:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
No I haven't.
Why doesn't it surprise me?
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Back to the thread. I have seen several of Phelps anti-gay protests turned into pro-gay fundraissers; people pledge so much an hour for however long he protests.
Other than that, don't fall into the trap of denying his constitutional rights, comfort those afflicted by him and plan for a really large party on the day of his funeral to celebrate his going to his reward in the afterlife.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Have you read Calvin's Institutes? There's barely a page there in which the man himself does not abuse some or other of his opponents as stupid, insane and evil. The book is so thick with loathing, one's shoes squelch as one reads it.
Your copy must have been stolen and replaced with some other book. Its long-winded, pedantic, often boring, serious-minded, occasionally cynical, once or twice even funny, but there's not a lot of abuse in it.
Now Martin Luther, there was a theologian with a sharp tongue in his head...
Calvin is a boring as watching paint dry. I mean let's face it he was a lawyer. Luther on the other hand is interesting, at times frustrating, and at others devastatingly funny - for a 16th century dude.
On a tangental point, I would like to piss on the Phelpses of this world because they pander to the secular progressive stereotype of Christians.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But yeah, if the only reason to be morally responsibly is to go to heaven when you die
It's not the only reason, but it is the only persuasive one.
For you it seems so. Yet occasionally you come out with total spiritual pearls that leads me to think this fear of Hell may not be such a bad thing for someone like you after all.
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Thanks Evensong, but if moral responsibility gives us eternal life that's awfully close to justification by works.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I thought I was arguing the opposite.
Be morally responsible cos it's the right thing to do. Makes the world a better place.
If I got your explication wrong, how would you answer Marvin's very good question?
Why bother if it's only about the next life and you haven't the foggiest whether you will be part of that or not?
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Talking of arseholes:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
No I haven't.
Why doesn't it surprise me?
Because you're a cynical bastard that knows the price of everything and the value of nothing?
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a theological scrapbook
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Kettle, meet Pot.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't get my material from nowhere ya know.
I thought you got it out of your arsehole.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
It can be a fertile place.
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
It can be a fertile place.
Mmm. You do know that if you've anything growing back there, you ought to get the doctor to check it out?
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
I've recently taken to eating yoghurt.
I'm hoping my crop of growing things will increase 100 fold.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
I saw this and smiled - the KKK protested Westboro who were protesting a cemetary.
You couldn't make this shit up.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
You couldn't make it up.
As the link says, it's two groups that deserve each other.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
There's a fun facebook group called Unvirtuous Abbey.
This was their status update today:
quote:
Unvirtuous Abbey
For those who live their lives in such a way that Westboro Baptist Church would picket their funeral, we give thanks.
*like*
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a theological scrapbook
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Amen.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I notice that they frequently announce their attendances and then back off when they're no longer the story.
like this one... in Texas
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Booyah! They are coming to Nashville.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Just enough time to organise a Chely Wright concert
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Has anti-Semitism always been part of their schtick and I just never noticed?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I read something about these clowns* where the notion that they exist solely for the PR was discussed. What better way to get PR than to show up at the site of a tragedy affecting the entire nation.
Zen Buddhists have Koan; statements that make us try think about the nature of reality. One such is "If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a sound?"
I propose to you that Fred & Co. are the opposite of a universal anything. They have no agenda other than the - whatever - it is they get from public reaction to their stupid human tricks.
I get it that saying anything now is the opposite of what I am proposing. That being said . . .
Let's see if the Westboro Baptist Church exists if no one pays attention to them.
Yeah, yeah. We are just a few. We won't make any difference. So what?
If someone asks you about them, just say ignore them, they will eventually go away. Maybe it will spread.
This will mean nothing to the family and friends of those who suffered because of what happened in Colorado. They will have to face the japing gargoyles who compose the Westboro Baptist Church whether we ignore them or not.
But, . . . if everybody eventually gets to the point that they ignore them, what will they do then? What will enrich their coffers?
What will let Matthew Shepard and Fred Rogers and company know that they mattered and are worthy of love? Maybe ignoring the hate will do that best.
Make fun of me as you will. It's what I am going to do.
_____________________
* I think on a site Kelly discussed elsewhere.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
It's impossible to win with these guys because (1) bad things will always happen, and (2) there will always be something they dislike that they can point to and say is the cause of (1).
That's the beauty of attributing everything to God, really. Nothing just happens, it's always Divine Punishment.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's impossible to win with these guys because (1) bad things will always happen, and (2) there will always be something they dislike that they can point to and say is the cause of (1).
That's the beauty of attributing everything to God, really. Nothing just happens, it's always Divine Punishment.
There's always the No Publicity option. Could the media be persuaded to give them no footage, airtime or column space? Let them broadcast or print for themselves but I'd like to see the mainstream ignore the Phelpsians, once and for all.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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listener
Apprentice
# 15770
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Posted
http://politix.topix.com/civil-liberties/1643-anti-gay-protests-at-military-funerals-restricted-by-new-law
Westboro Baptist Church members believe soldiers' deaths are God's punishment for tolerating homosexuality, and have picketed military funerals all over the country with signs such as "thank God for dead soldiers," above.
They'll now be much more limited in how they can protest: Congress just passed a new law which means that demonstrators can only protest two hours before or after a military funeral, and must stay at least 300 feet from grieving family members.
[ 04. August 2012, 06:35: Message edited by: listener ]
Posts: 31 | From: Canada | Registered: Jul 2010
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by listener:
http://politix.topix.com/civil-liberties/1643-anti-gay-protests-at-military-funerals-restricted-by-new-law
Westboro Baptist Church members believe soldiers' deaths are God's punishment for tolerating homosexuality, and have picketed military funerals all over the country with signs such as "thank God for dead soldiers," above.
They'll now be much more limited in how they can protest: Congress just passed a new law which means that demonstrators can only protest two hours before or after a military funeral, and must stay at least 300 feet from grieving family members.
Since the U.S. Supreme Court ruled back in 2011 that such a law was unconstitutional, ruling that Westboro had the 1st Amendment right of free speech on it's side, I doubt this law will stand for long. I despise Westboro, but I value free speech more. Not to mention Freedom Riders and other citizens groups have done an almost perfect job of blocking these jokers from the funerals. Congress didn't need to insert it's conceited self into it again.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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