homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Michael Gove (Page 1)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Michael Gove
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This might be a sympton of the silly season, like the latest plan for Civil Service reform announced yesterday, but here is a proposal for another bloody change to education!

Why doesn't this oxygen thief bring back fagging, caps and straw boaters and compulsory cold showers to complete the picture. Gove (a former News International hack, so there are his credentials) is only there to make Lansley and Osborne look adequate. It's another fine example of harking back to the Golden Years rather than actually sorting out the real problems. No wonder it was leaked through the Daily Wail rather than presented to parliament or published as a White/Green paper.

I really can understand why my son doesn't want anything to do with the education system, although he loves to teach kids.

I wonder what pile of poo we will read about tomorrow?

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Disgraceful! How dare Mr Gove want to raise academic standards! He should resign immediately.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I keep hoping Leveson will completely discredit him.

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689

 - Posted      Profile for MarsmanTJ   Email MarsmanTJ   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
At least he's better than Balls was, since he is at least marginally more honest. Look on the bright side. It appears a competent/intelligent education plan is something beyond the abilities of any of the major parties in the UK.
Posts: 238 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Gove doesn't want to raise academic standards, he wants to impose his own inflexible ideas of education onto the education system. Eg phonics are a wonderful tool in learning to read, it's just that they aren't the only one.

The problems are that vocational qualifications are totally devalued. He's just trashed a lot of the good qualifications that were available instead of academic GCSEs - like the Engineering course the local school ran which required at least Functional Skills Level 1 English, Maths and ICT as part of the qualification. And this Government has shaken up the funding so that schools have stopped offering the other college based qualifications which were providing employable skills and kept some of the kids in school - courses like NVQs in construction (general building skills: basic bricklaying, carpentry, electrical works, plumbing), hair & beauty, motor vehicle maintenance and catering.

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Is this happening (again) because school teachers bankrupted the country? Wild speculation on pencil futures? Spread betting on little Jeremy's SATs results?

No, it's because Gove needs to be seen to Do Something. Even if in six months time, when he's replaced by someone who wasn't a Murdoch hack, the next minister will also feel the irresistible urge to Do Something.

The very best way of improving educational standards in the country, in every subject, without pissing about with the curriculum is this: reduce class sizes to 15.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

 - Posted      Profile for Jane R   Email Jane R   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ricardus:
quote:
Disgraceful! How dare Mr Gove want to raise academic standards!
If he sincerely wants to raise academic standards then reintroducing a two-tier examination system that throws the majority of pupils onto the educational scrapheap at the age of 14 is a funny way of going about it. GCSEs were introduced (BY THE TORIES, lest we forget) to make it easier for late developers to realise their potential.

What he actually seems to be doing - judging by the evidence so far - is trying to turn the clock back to the late 70s/early 80s when he was at school himself. Because that was a Golden Age in British education, right? Right?

Teachers, pupils and examination boards are in a no-win situation regarding GCSEs and A-levels. It happens every year:

If the number of A and A* grades goes up - There is a great howl of indignation from the media that exams must be getting easier. The Department for Education issues a statement that the government is committed to raising standards. Teachers' unions say that students are working harder than ever, but nobody listens to them.

If the number of A and A* grades goes down - There is a great howl of indignation from the media that educational standards are falling. The Department for Education issues a statement that the government is committed to raising standards. OFSTED says that all 'Good' schools will now be described as 'Barely Holding Their Own' and threatened with Special Measures. Teachers' unions point out that this is hardly fair when the exams have just been made harder, but nobody listens to them.

The only people who win are the media, because they can run stories about The Decline In Educational Standards from the moment when results are published until halfway through the autumn term, whatever the results are.

Oh, and what Curiosity Killed... said.

Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

 - Posted      Profile for North East Quine   Email North East Quine   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Michael Gove wouldn't have sat "O" levels himself, because he was educated in Scotland, which has a different system. So he can't be trying to turn the clock back to the system he remembers from his own schooldays.

Also, the Scottish system he grew up with - "O" Grades and Highers - was overhauled to produce a new system of Standard Grades, Intermediates 1 and 2, and Highers, and is now being overhauled again in the new Curriculum for Excellence.

Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

 - Posted      Profile for Jane R   Email Jane R   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Strange that the 'English Bac' sounds just like the range of 'options' that I had to choose from when selecting my O levels, then...

I do know the Scottish system is different - I have Scottish relatives - but wasn't aware that Gove was Scottish <checks Wikipedia> I see he went to Robert Gordon's in Aberdeen.

Odd that he would want to make the English system more restrictive - the Scottish system doesn't encourage you to specialise at such an early age...

Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

 - Posted      Profile for Jane R   Email Jane R   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sorry for the double post, my system is playing up and I missed the edit window. Or something. Could a Hellhost delete the first of those two messages, please?

[It's gone. Not because I like you, but because I like using the "delete post" button [Devil] ]

[ 21. June 2012, 09:47: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

 - Posted      Profile for North East Quine   Email North East Quine   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Gove went to a state primary school in Aberdeen, then won a full scholarship to Robert Gordon's School, which was then a fee-paying boys-only school. It's still fee-paying, but now mixed-sex. Very high reputation academically.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

 - Posted      Profile for North East Quine   Email North East Quine   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
D'uh! Didn't read your second post, Jane R! You already knew where he went to school. Robert Gordon's is very traditional; it still teaches Latin, which has almost vanished from the state schools hereabouts. It has the full shirt/tie/blazer uniform, whereas the state schools tend to go for polo-shirt and school sweatshirt. Great range of sporting opportunities, too, though I gather Gove wasn't sporty. There's a lot of competition for the scholarships, unsurprisingly.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
...reintroducing a two-tier examination system that throws the majority of pupils onto the educational scrapheap at the age of 14 is a funny way of going about it.

Trouble is, a system that results in virtually every student who can hold a pencil getting a fistful of good qualifications throws all of them on the scrapheap, because it means universities and employers stop taking those qualifications seriously.

What is needed is a system that allows "late bloomers" a fair chance, but where getting an "A" (or even "B"/"C") grade actually means something.

Ofsted, of course, need to be taken out behind the chemical tanks and shot.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

 - Posted      Profile for Jane R   Email Jane R   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
In the interests of fairness it should also be noted that Scottish private schools are nowhere near as exclusive as English public schools. My Other Half went to a fee-paying school in Edinburgh when he was a child. But NEQ knows far more about the Scottish system than I do, so I'll shut up about it now...

The English education system is very good at educating the academic elite. It's not so good at enabling average pupils to reach their full potential and it's not good at engaging non-academic pupils and equipping them with the skills they need to survive in the modern workforce. Raising (academic) standards is all very well, but we don't just need a highly educated elite to govern the barely literate masses; nowadays everybody needs to be literate and numerate. Maybe in the future everyone will also need to know a foreign language (Chinese? Arabic? Hindi?) and everyone should have the opportunity to develop an interest in music, or art, or bike maintenance, or gardening... something to while away the leisure hours, because most jobs do not consume every waking minute and you can only watch TV for so long before your brain turns to mush.

Mr Gove's latest flight of fancy seems to be playing to the English education system's existing strengths whilst doing nothing to fix the real problems - as others have already said.

Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

 - Posted      Profile for Jane R   Email Jane R   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Marvin:
quote:
What is needed is a system that allows "late bloomers" a fair chance, but where getting an "A" (or even "B"/"C") grade actually means something.
I agree with this. I just don't think reintroducing O levels is the right way to achieve that aim.

[I know you don't delete posts because you like us - that's why I didn't ask for a kind Hellhost [Devil] ]

Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

 - Posted      Profile for North East Quine   Email North East Quine   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Scotland currently has three curriculums (curriculi?) for every subject at Standard Grade (equivalent to GCSE) - Credit, General and Foundation. Pupils follow whichever curriculum they are deemed capable of. Then they sit one or two exams at the end - e.g. if they've followed the credit curriculum then they sit both the credit and the general exams, so that if they fail credit, the chances are they'll pass general. Only the best result appears on the final results sheet. Universities are only interested in Credit results, but for apprenticeships, college courses, etc, a General certificate is required. And for basic non-skilled jobs, foundation results show a minimal level of education.

The slight downside is the sheer number of exams; my daughter has just sat 18 (nine subjects at general and credit) but they seem to regard the general exam as a "warm-up" which works quite well.

From the timetabling point of view, three separate curriculi must be a nightmare.

Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Ricardus:
quote:
Disgraceful! How dare Mr Gove want to raise academic standards!
If he sincerely wants to raise academic standards then reintroducing a two-tier examination system that throws the majority of pupils onto the educational scrapheap at the age of 14 is a funny way of going about it.
GCSEs already have a two-tier system. Foundation Tier and Higher Tier.
quote:
If the number of A and A* grades goes up - There is a great howl of indignation from the media that exams must be getting easier. The Department for Education issues a statement that the government is committed to raising standards. Teachers' unions say that students are working harder than ever, but nobody listens to them.
I would ignore both the politicians and the unions and look at the international rankings, which show a fairly unambiguous decline in standards.

In any case it is an irrelevant argument. If students are getting cleverer then there is room to stretch them by making exams harder. If exams have got easier then they need to be made harder. Either way we should be improving standards.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ricardus, the article you've quoted doesn't say that UK standards have declined but that:
quote:
The results for the UK's teenagers have not declined significantly across these years, says the OECD - it is more the case that they have failed to keep up with the improvements of pupils in other countries.
And I would say that the continual tinkering with the education system is not helping anything, because schools are permanently playing catch up with new syllabuses and qualifications. If all your energy is spent trying to get your head and materials around the new stuff that's just been thrown at you, you have no time and energy left for improving standards

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Ricardus, the article you've quoted doesn't say that UK standards have declined but that:
quote:
The results for the UK's teenagers have not declined significantly across these years, says the OECD - it is more the case that they have failed to keep up with the improvements of pupils in other countries.

Ah - good point, clearly my own reading standards are in decline. Even so, that still feeds into my last paragraph above.
quote:
And I would say that the continual tinkering with the education system is not helping anything, because schools are permanently playing catch up with new syllabuses and qualifications. If all your energy is spent trying to get your head and materials around the new stuff that's just been thrown at you, you have no time and energy left for improving standards
This is also true but doing nothing isn't going to raise standards either.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Tories are continually bleating the mantra (or they used to, anyway) 'you've got to live in the real world.' The trouble is, most of them have no idea what that is.

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
OK - in the past 4 years, just looking at the Maths I've taught to year 10-11 students (age 14-16) who've fallen out of the school system for whatever reason - so last chance saloon.

Entry Level has changed substantially - I'm currently procrastinating from rewriting the materials to teach the current new syllabus - it's taught as a way of checking they've got the basics before taking them on to ...
Basic Skills in literacy and numeracy, which I taught for two years, are no more and have been replaced by Functional Skills - for now, until the next lot of tinkering happens.
The GCSE syllabus has changed twice - once to deal with the Labour Government changes and again to deal with the most recent Coalition Government changes.

That's before we look at English/literacy, ICT, PSE or anything else we've taught

It is damn difficult finding practice exams as stuff comes in and experience tells me that the specimen materials change as the real exams kick in. There were huge changes on the ICT functional skills exam, for example ...

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
...reintroducing a two-tier examination system that throws the majority of pupils onto the educational scrapheap at the age of 14 is a funny way of going about it.

Trouble is, a system that results in virtually every student who can hold a pencil getting a fistful of good qualifications throws all of them on the scrapheap, because it means universities and employers stop taking those qualifications seriously.

What is needed is a system that allows "late bloomers" a fair chance, but where getting an "A" (or even "B"/"C") grade actually means something.

Ofsted, of course, need to be taken out behind the chemical tanks and shot.

Grades are now allocated in a radically different way to that used before about the late 1980's.

In those days there was no fixed mark to determine each grade. The assumption was made that while the exam difficulty might change from year to year the ability of each year's cohort would not. I'm not certain of the precise numbers but I believe it worked out that a statistical distribution was used and the top 20% got A's, the bottom 20% ALWAYS failed, and the rest of the passes were carved up between the remaining pass grades.

The scheme then changed to an absolute marking scheme and while again I'm not sure about the numbers it is the markthe student gets on the exam, against a fixed marking scheme that dtermines their grade. Above 40% is a pass, over 70% an A grade and so on. Grades are not allocated by a quota now, so the proliferation of higher grade passes is more likely as more students are taught to a far more tightly defined syllabus and schools put under far more pressure to get students through, for the school's sake not that of the students.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I just wish Michael Gove and the rest of the government would learn the meaning of the word 'Average'.

[Roll Eyes] [Disappointed]

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Grades are now allocated in a radically different way to that used before about the late 1980's.

In those days there was no fixed mark to determine each grade. The assumption was made that while the exam difficulty might change from year to year the ability of each year's cohort would not. I'm not certain of the precise numbers but I believe it worked out that a statistical distribution was used and the top 20% got A's, the bottom 20% ALWAYS failed, and the rest of the passes were carved up between the remaining pass grades.

That's more-or-less how it worked at my University (early 70s). What happened there is that the exam results were tweaked so that the average mark always lay in a fairly tight band. If the average was low, the presumption was that the paper was difficult, so the marks were raised; and vice-versa.

Then grades were applied to the "revised" marks - I think 70 or 75% got you a "First", the next band down got an Upper Second, and so on. But there were no absolute allocations of numbers, so 5 Firsts might be awarded one year but none the next.

It seemed fair to us, and worked to my advantage in one particularly difficult Thermodynamics paper. For I worked out that I could not have got more than about 40% as I hadn't completed enough questions But I was actually given over 60%! Everyone had been complaining about its difficulty.

[ 21. June 2012, 13:32: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
In those days there was no fixed mark to determine each grade. The assumption was made that while the exam difficulty might change from year to year the ability of each year's cohort would not. I'm not certain of the precise numbers but I believe it worked out that a statistical distribution was used and the top 20% got A's, the bottom 20% ALWAYS failed, and the rest of the passes were carved up between the remaining pass grades.

That sounds like a very good system indeed. After all, isn't the whole point of grading students to establish where they lie on the ability spectrum for the subject in hand?

Universities and employers don't want exam grades to tell them how good someone is in an absolute sense - they want to know how good that person is compared to everyone else. And for that you need to be able to make a reasonable comparison. If they're told "all students in this year group are of "A" grade ability" then they'll just ignore the qualifications and use something else to establish which ones they actually want to recruit, which makes earning those qualifications in the first place a colossal waste of time.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
In those days there was no fixed mark to determine each grade. The assumption was made that while the exam difficulty might change from year to year the ability of each year's cohort would not. I'm not certain of the precise numbers but I believe it worked out that a statistical distribution was used and the top 20% got A's, the bottom 20% ALWAYS failed, and the rest of the passes were carved up between the remaining pass grades.

That sounds like a very good system indeed. After all, isn't the whole point of grading students to establish where they lie on the ability spectrum for the subject in hand?

Universities and employers don't want exam grades to tell them how good someone is in an absolute sense - they want to know how good that person is compared to everyone else. And for that you need to be able to make a reasonable comparison. If they're told "all students in this year group are of "A" grade ability" then they'll just ignore the qualifications and use something else to establish which ones they actually want to recruit, which makes earning those qualifications in the first place a colossal waste of time.

Exams should not exist to give employers and universities an easy out. They should assess would-be staff and employers for themselves.

Then again you could have something. Maybe driving tests and criminal trials could be assessed in this way. 'Sorry pal' says Justice Cocklecarrott, 'The evidence against you is shite, but it's better than that against your co-defendents, so down you go'.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Exams should not exist to give employers and universities an easy out. They should assess would-be staff and employers for themselves.

OK, then why not have a system where the only official grades given out are "pass" and "fail"?

If grades aren't meant to indicate which graduates are better or worse than the others, why give out grades at all?

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Exams should not exist to give employers and universities an easy out. They should assess would-be staff and employers for themselves.

OK, then why not have a system where the only official grades given out are "pass" and "fail"?
Because different jobs require different levels of academic aptitude?

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sioni appears to differ.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Exams should not exist to give employers and universities an easy out. They should assess would-be staff and employers for themselves.

OK, then why not have a system where the only official grades given out are "pass" and "fail"?
Because different jobs require different levels of academic aptitude?
Very few jobs require academic aptitude. A lot require a particular skill or talent but even a degree doesn't indicate much in the way of skill or talent. NVQs and the old City and Guilds qualifications do that far better. It's a crude weeding exercise. No wonder Britain underachieves.

[ 21. June 2012, 14:41: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630

 - Posted      Profile for Tom Day   Author's homepage   Email Tom Day   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
In those days there was no fixed mark to determine each grade. The assumption was made that while the exam difficulty might change from year to year the ability of each year's cohort would not. I'm not certain of the precise numbers but I believe it worked out that a statistical distribution was used and the top 20% got A's, the bottom 20% ALWAYS failed, and the rest of the passes were carved up between the remaining pass grades.

That sounds like a very good system indeed. After all, isn't the whole point of grading students to establish where they lie on the ability spectrum for the subject in hand?

Universities and employers don't want exam grades to tell them how good someone is in an absolute sense - they want to know how good that person is compared to everyone else. And for that you need to be able to make a reasonable comparison. If they're told "all students in this year group are of "A" grade ability" then they'll just ignore the qualifications and use something else to establish which ones they actually want to recruit, which makes earning those qualifications in the first place a colossal waste of time.

But then how do you compare year to year? With the current system (which, I do admit probably needs some changes in terms of exam boards) A student who gets an A this year is the same as a student who got an A the year before, and the year before. If you only give 10% of students A's, one year will be different from others.

On to the topic of Michael Gove, He has made my job of union rep so much easier - I have got more members joining us and willing to become involved since he started! This recent idea of condemning people when they are 13 is just appalling. At least with GCSE's they give every student the chance to get a decent grade. I have taught at least 2 students this year who would have probably been graded a CSE student when aged 13, but managed to get good grade B's when they took their GCSE as they matured and developed a lot in their final year.

I do agree that we should have one exam board which offers all kinds of qualifications. But to pigeon hole 13 year olds is almost criminal in my opinion.

Gove is a nightmare in education, I am assuming that his next announcement will be that all teachers need to wear Motar Boards and wear gowns...

Tom

Posts: 6473 | From: My Sofa | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican't   Email Anglican't   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
I am assuming that his next announcement will be that all teachers need to wear Motar Boards and wear gowns...

If only he would. It'd be an improvement on what a lot of teachers where these days.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
I am assuming that his next announcement will be that all teachers need to wear Motar Boards and wear gowns...

If only he would. It'd be an improvement on what a lot of teachers where these days.
Oooh, can we bring back 100 lines, pretty please?
Write out now 100 times:
Where are the teachers and what should the teachers wear?

eta to add a word

[ 21. June 2012, 20:24: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican't   Email Anglican't   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Did lines ever go away as a form of punishment? (Not sure how effective they were, though.)
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630

 - Posted      Profile for Tom Day   Author's homepage   Email Tom Day   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Did lines ever go away as a form of punishment? (Not sure how effective they were, though.)

Where I teach they are out of fashion. My usual punishment for that kind of thing is to get the student to write a letter of apology. Or make sure that their homework is complete...

--------------------
My allotment blog

Posts: 6473 | From: My Sofa | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630

 - Posted      Profile for Tom Day   Author's homepage   Email Tom Day   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And the best thing about Gove's idea??

He has got the unions (this quote from the NASUWT Website) praising Margaret Thatcher!

"Michael Gove's arrogance is breathtaking. Not only is he upsetting thousands of young people, parents and teachers but he is also consigning Margaret Thatcher's historic education reforms to the dustbin of history."

That is something Gove should be proud of!

Tom

--------------------
My allotment blog

Posts: 6473 | From: My Sofa | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican't   Email Anglican't   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Did lines ever go away as a form of punishment? (Not sure how effective they were, though.)
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

 - Posted      Profile for Uncle Pete     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Did lines ever go away as a form of punishment? (Not sure how effective they were, though.)

You've already asked that. Are you looking for a second opinion?

--------------------
Even more so than I was before

Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican't   Email Anglican't   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
You've already asked that. Are you looking for a second opinion?

Have I? When?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican't   Email Anglican't   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sorry - just realised I somehow double posted without realising. Completely unintentional.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
Sarah G
Shipmate
# 11669

 - Posted      Profile for Sarah G     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
These proposed exams are for 75% of the population. Whatever else they might be, they're not O-levels, which were aimed only at the elite.

I wonder who leaked all this, and why?

Posts: 514 | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
These proposed exams are for 75% of the population. Whatever else they might be, they're not O-levels, which were aimed only at the elite.

I wonder who leaked all this, and why?

If it was to annoy the LibDems and the entire educational establishment, and therefore placate the Conservatives, it's been successful. I reckon it was an 'official leak', which if the Civil Sevice reforms announced by Francis Maude come to fruition we will see more of, as more of their cronies get into minister's offices.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
QLib

Bad Example
# 43

 - Posted      Profile for QLib   Email QLib   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There have been a couple of instances recently when Clegg has apparently put his foot down and I suspect it may be part of one vast super-plot [Paranoid] to make the LibDems feel better about their place in the coalition. Either that or Gove's just a fuckwit.

Or, of course, both of the above.

--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Seems like he's done a u turn on CSEs. He says he doesn’t want a two-tier system so all kids will sit the supposedly tougher exam – even though most will fail.

Why not bring back the 11+ while he is about it – let the kids discover a feeling of failure earlier – and get used to it?

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oh they're already well aware - from SATs ('I'm level 4 and you're only level 2') and have been doing the same boasting all the way through primary school ('You're only on blue books and I'm on silver') etc. etc. Kids aren't daft, they work out which is the clever table or the highest level of the scheme very quickly.

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pulsator Organorum Ineptus
Shipmate
# 2515

 - Posted      Profile for Pulsator Organorum Ineptus   Email Pulsator Organorum Ineptus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Gove doesn't want to raise academic standards, he wants to impose his own inflexible ideas of education onto the education system.

Yes, that will be why he is talking about scrapping the national curriculum.
Posts: 695 | From: Bronteland | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Things must be desperate. We 'liberals' opposed the National Curriculum' for being a straightjacket which stifles creativity.

Now we are defending it against a despot.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
caty
Shipmate
# 85

 - Posted      Profile for caty     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Gove seems to have no idea just how long it takes to design and implement these Bright Ideas of his... What's SO frustrating is that the last lot of changes haven't even been fully worked through.

We started a new syllabus this year in Science, and we know already that there will be a huge drop in A/A* next year. The new assessments are significantly more challenging, and the exam boards have been told that they can't keep parity with the old syllabus - ie they must keep the grade boundaries high and award fewer A grades. (Only affects Science; Maths and English get to keep the same number of A grades I believe.)

Following year, we're moving to terminal assessment - ie all exams at the end of the course. Surely this already achieves the objectives Gove is aiming for in reintroducing O levels?

We're still writing the schemes of work for these changes and trying to get our heads round the horribly complicated practical assessment - and now being told there's another syllabus coming in a couple of years! I also feel so sorry for the kids in the next couple of years who'll be told their qualifications are "too easy" when they're already significantly harder than those sat by their slightly older brothers and sisters.

Still, as our beloved head of OFSTED says, we all need to just "man up" and get on with it... Because teaching isn't a stressful job at all, is it?

(sigh [Frown] )
caty

Posts: 115 | From: yorkshire | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

 - Posted      Profile for balaam   Author's homepage   Email balaam   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
As someone tweeted last week:
quote:
There is no I in team, and there should be no Gove in Government.


--------------------
Last ever sig ...

blog

Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

 - Posted      Profile for Jane R   Email Jane R   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Kids aren't daft, they work out which is the clever table or the highest level of the scheme very quickly.
Yes, but the point is that if you divide them into sheep and goats (or O-level and CSE) for KS4 you make it unnecessarily hard for them to transfer upwards into the higher stream if they suddenly manifest unprecedented academic ability at the age of fourteen and a half.

I see he's done a U-turn on CSEs already.

[ 30. June 2012, 09:07: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools