|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Pediatrician Dad Waterboards 11 yr. old Daughter WTF?!?
|
Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
|
Posted
It appears the good doc's waterboarding of his daughter may also have been experimenting for his money making efforts: Despicable
"DOVER, Del. -
A Delaware pediatrician who achieved national recognition for his research into near-death experiences involving children may have been experimenting on his 11-year-old stepdaughter by waterboarding her, police said in court documents.
The possible link between Dr. Melvin Morse's research and the waterboarding allegations was revealed in an affidavit for a search warrant for Morse's computers. The document was obtained Tuesday by The Associated Press.
According to the affidavit, Dr. Melvin Morse brought the girl "to a possible near death state from the simulation of drowning."
--------------------
"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
Beats the snot out of a good many systems where the defendent is denied the right to challenge witnesses against them, or where the verdict has been decided by the gov't prior to the trial. It has it's faults, but a person is entitled to a trial by a jury of his peers or by a judge, the right to legal counsel, the right to access to all evidence against him as well as any exculpatory evidence, the right to challenge any witnesses in court and the right to testify or not and the right to appeal any judgement. Have there been wrong verdicts?
You need to look into what is actually happening in our so-called justice system. People do not have those rights because people with authority have decided they want certain people (frequently black or brown people) punished for existing.
quote:
Yes, but considering the numbers freed in recent years new technologies are giving a chance to them. The problems likes with idiot humans - corrupt police or prosecutors, prejudiced jurors or where those with money for a team of high paid lawyers can do a better job than a poor overworked public defender. Problems? Yes? Broken? No, it's still working and I'll take it over many others.
The numbers freed in recent years? We are locking up more people than ever; we are locking people up because they told a cop their name was Ticia rather than Leticia. What the hell new technologies are giving a chance to these people? Why would you even think that?
quote:
I am not willing to open the prison doors for anyone who abuses, tortures, rapes or murders a child because of faults in the system - and I don't apologize for that. Especially those in places of trust and authority for the children they hurt.
Who said anything about opening the prison doors for anyone who abuses, tortures, rapes, or murders a child? Who is asking you to apologize? You do realize that given that you have already sentenced this man for the rest of his life without giving him the benefit of a trial you are being a part of the problem rather than a part of the solution don't you?
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
How very brave of you.
I know the world is an imperfect place and some assholes do abuse children, but have you ever actually heard of someone who defended their actions as being right?
quote:
I'm glad you're willing to let them skip jail and you can have them live next door to you. I especially want the child abusers away from the kids. I want them in jail for an appropriate term with counseling, job training and whatever else they need to make their next appearance in society successful.
Holy hell. Who said anything about letting a person who has in fact been convicted of a crime (which, again, would require people to actually allow them to have a trial in the first place, which people are not currently doing) to skip jail? They aren't getting counseling, job training, or anything else they need to make their next appearance in society successful. They are simply learning how to become better criminals, which is a good thing because no one else anywhere in society will give them a chance to be something else.
quote:
And again, the focus of this thread is 2 children who where harmed by the asshole who was supposed to be their protector. There is an 11 year old girl who was tortured and a 5 year old who saw it and now thinks torture is natural. Doesn't that disturb you?
Huh. Maybe in the end you really are just stupid.
--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
You need to look into what is actually happening in our so-called justice system. People do not have those rights because people with authority have decided they want certain people (frequently black or brown people) punished for existing.
You wanna back that up with some numbers big boy?
Have you been around a criminal courtroom anytime recently?
Even here in the sovereign south a good many of the cops are brown, as are the prosecutors and judges. From my experience, they don't give a flying fuck what color you are, just what you did.
Prove your contention and I will pay attention to you. Back it up with the same kind of screed you have been using in this thread and I will know yet another poster to skip over.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
I'm very interested in the risk of black or brown people being treated unfairly by the law, but I just can't see the relevance in an argument over our treatment of child abusers.
While I don't doubt there is some racism in most justice systems in the world in varying directions, it doesn't seem to me to totally taint and invalidate every act of the US justice system.
And given that the argument here seems largely an emotional one about the tone one strikes when discussing abusers of children, it seems an unwholesome missile to drawn in and fling into the fight.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
You need to look into what is actually happening in our so-called justice system. People do not have those rights because people with authority have decided they want certain people (frequently black or brown people) punished for existing.
The numbers freed in recent years? We are locking up more people than ever; we are locking people up because they told a cop their name was Ticia rather than Leticia. What the hell new technologies are giving a chance to these people? Why would you even think that?
(snip)
Who said anything about opening the prison doors for anyone who abuses, tortures, rapes, or murders a child? Who is asking you to apologize? You do realize that given that you have already sentenced this man for the rest of his life without giving him the benefit of a trial you are being a part of the problem rather than a part of the solution don't you?
I know the world is an imperfect place and some assholes do abuse children, but have you ever actually heard of someone who defended their actions as being right?
(snip)
Holy hell. Who said anything about letting a person who has in fact been convicted of a crime (which, again, would require people to actually allow them to have a trial in the first place, which people are not currently doing) to skip jail? They aren't getting counseling, job training, or anything else they need to make their next appearance in society successful. They are simply learning how to become better criminals, which is a good thing because no one else anywhere in society will give them a chance to be something else.
(Snip)
Huh. Maybe in the end you really are just stupid.
Your post is just about 100% bullshit. My state has the worst budget crisis of any of the 50 states, but we are still providing drug counseling, education programs, mental health counseling and a prison to employment program despite budget cuts. State of California Prison Programs I've seen parole board recommendations and reports listing each of the programs these prisoners have completed. And we are presently still under Federal watch because of problems with medical services in the past and at present the prisoners may not be getting the absolute best care, but neither are approximately 50+ million Americans without health coverage - that's a huge problem for a huge swath of citizenry, not just prisoners. But the stats on the coverage they are receiving now, even with budget cuts is far improved over several years ago.
And, as I have stated many times over there are problems of equality in the justice system, but I contend the major problems are finance based, not race based. Minority groups are just now catching up with whites on the economic scale and the more money you have for your defense, the better your chances at trial. A public defender is going to pressure every client they have, regardless of race, to plead out and if they go to trial the public defender will not be as prepared as the several hundred to a thousand dollar an hour attorneys.
So tell me, what are your solutions? What do you suggest? I've given some of my suggestions throughout this thread. I've seen none from you.
And yes, when I opened this thread I stated a sentence of life w/o parole would be good. My statement was rage based. My posting this thread was empathy based for the victim, an 11 year old child - who seems to be forgotten in all of this. It's a hot button issue for me and it's one reason I'll never serve on a jury in a child abuse/torture/rape case. If he's convicted I'd still opt for that as this man appears to be a sociopath who'd do it again. But a judge and/or jury gets to make that decision not me. So it's a non issue.
So put up some statistics to support your statements and let's hear your suggestions on what to do with these violent offenders - especially child abusers or even how to fix the system. I've offered suggestions up thread. All I get from you is unfounded accusations and insults.
Oh and check out the Innocence Project. They've assisted in freeing hundreds of wrongfully convicted offenders as new technology proves their innocence. Also check out the FBI crime statistics - crime is actually down. Our overcrowding, especially in my state, is due to 3 strikes type laws that lock up non violent offenders for life even if all or just one of the convictions is for a non violent relatively minor conviction.
--------------------
"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
You wanna back that up with some numbers big boy?
Have you been around a criminal courtroom anytime recently?
Even here in the sovereign south a good many of the cops are brown, as are the prosecutors and judges. From my experience, they don't give a flying fuck what color you are, just what you did.
Prove your contention and I will pay attention to you. Back it up with the same kind of screed you have been using in this thread and I will know yet another poster to skip over.
As a matter of fact, I have been near a criminal courtroom lately.
And I'm telling you we have a problem.
I met a woman in prison who had been arrested for telling a cop her name was Ticia instead of Leticia. Do you want more stories?
No, I don't have the solution. But the problem is not going to be solved by people sitting around feeling all superior to child abusers and complaining that I'm hurting their feelings when I tell the truth.
--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
Yup, they are stories. Selected examples. Opinion pieces, features, campaigning journalism. Some deal with individual cases, others with topics.
But no numbers. Hard cases, like those you quote, make for lousy law. Let's see some numbers, like Tortuf asked for.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Yup, they are stories. Selected examples. Opinion pieces, features, campaigning journalism. Some deal with individual cases, others with topics.
But no numbers. Hard cases, like those you quote, make for lousy law. Let's see some numbers, like Tortuf asked for.
Fine. I will do your googling for you. Numbers.
--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
So tell me, what are your solutions? What do you suggest? I've given some of my suggestions throughout this thread. I've seen none from you.
Apparently you are in California. This man is in Delaware. I can tell you right now he's not going to get a fair trial, because I have personal experience with the justice system in Delaware. Yes, people are working on the problem and things are probably improving. But right now everyone in Delaware is doing this crazy-ass thing where they're deciding that what someone actually said could not possibly be what they meant; what they really meant was something else. The state is acting like a crazy abusive parent in relation to the people in it.
Right now I'd suggest you keep your stupid-ass opinions and outrage about this man and his actions and his sentence out of my fucking state while we decide what we think is fair and what we're going to do about it. Because otherwise I don't know what you want to discuss, other than your moral superiority for feeling disgust and outrage over this man's actions.
--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
|
Posted
Nice numbers. How do they support your reckless allegation?
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
|
Posted
Which reckless allegation was that?
--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
So tell me, what are your solutions? What do you suggest? I've given some of my suggestions throughout this thread. I've seen none from you.
Apparently you are in California. This man is in Delaware. I can tell you right now he's not going to get a fair trial, because I have personal experience with the justice system in Delaware. Yes, people are working on the problem and things are probably improving. But right now everyone in Delaware is doing this crazy-ass thing where they're deciding that what someone actually said could not possibly be what they meant; what they really meant was something else. The state is acting like a crazy abusive parent in relation to the people in it.
Right now I'd suggest you keep your stupid-ass opinions and outrage about this man and his actions and his sentence out of my fucking state while we decide what we think is fair and what we're going to do about it. Because otherwise I don't know what you want to discuss, other than your moral superiority for feeling disgust and outrage over this man's actions.
I've never said this before to anyone but Fuck You. Thus far you've slung insults and opinions with no hard facts posted to support your "stupid ass opinions". You're unable to come up with suggestions or solid facts so you resort to insults. The argument of the ignorant.
--------------------
"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I can tell you right now he's not going to get a fair trial, because I have personal experience with the justice system in Delaware.
How is it that whether we're discussing mental health issues or child abuse, you work your way round to this issue?
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
|
Posted
We're well aware of Delaware.
--------------------
Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
How is it that whether we're discussing mental health issues or child abuse, you work your way round to this issue?
Because right now I am incredibly angry. I am incredibly angry at middle class women in the US because on the whole (there are certainly many exceptions which probably include most shipmates) they are acting like spoiled brats and they won't stop and start acting differently, and they all seem to do this thing where they change what you actually said to what they think you meant and claim that you actually said it.
If you were thrown in a jail cell for a month and subjected to all kinds of humiliations and rough physical treatments because a prosecutor who is protected by complete immunity claimed you said a bunch of things that you never actually said and no sane and rational person would think you had actually said given what you did say, you would be angry too (which, by the way, when did we makes speech illegal?).
Nightowl is making claims about the court and prison system in Delaware and what is going to happen to a person who is in it. While she might know something about the court and prison system in California, she does not know anything about the court and prison system in Delaware and she should stop insisting that certain things are true simply because she wants them to be true. They aren't, and we have to acknowledge the problem before we can deal with it, and she is influencing other people who are insisting that things that are not actually true are true.
Also, the thread is about a pediatrician in Delaware. Again I seem to find myself in a situation in which neither empirical nor personal/anecdotal evidence is allowed because people just know certain things are true.
--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Because right now I am incredibly angry. I am incredibly angry at middle class women in the US because on the whole (there are certainly many exceptions....
This may well answer my question about why you end up discussing the same issue on quite diverse threads. Is it really doing any good?
You may know what you say to be true, but I can't assess your personal experience, and your first two sentences make me suspect there is overlay in your perspective. It is always going to be difficult to deal with that in a hell thread which starts about something else, even if you see a link.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
It is always going to be difficult to deal with that in a hell thread which starts about something else, even if you see a link.
But what was the thread started about? Was it just a rant? (in which case, can't people at least make an attempt to be funny?) Or what?
But you're right, it's probably not going to do any good. People don't seem to change their minds based on logic or reason or evidence or anything other than their whims.
--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
(in which case, can't people at least make an attempt to be funny?) Or what?
This is a joke?
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
People don't seem to change their minds based on logic or reason or evidence or anything other than their whims.
Your evidence is your personal experience and we can't assess it. You are asking me to take a fairly big leap of faith in changing my mind about anything substantial based on that. And stating that you are generally angry at middle-class women (albeit with exceptions) isn't helping me to do that.
[ 16. August 2012, 20:58: Message edited by: mdijon ]
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Nightowl is making claims about the court and prison system in Delaware and what is going to happen to a person who is in it. While she might know something about the court and prison system in California, she does not know anything about the court and prison system in Delaware and she should stop insisting that certain things are true simply because she wants them to be true. They aren't, and we have to acknowledge the problem before we can deal with it, and she is influencing other people who are insisting that things that are not actually true are true.
Nope, we are all entitled to the basic items mentioned by the Constitution of the U.S.: the right to an attorney, the right a trial by a jury of our peers, the right against self incrimination, the right to cross examine our accusers, the right to review evidence against us, basic civil rights with respect to race and, as California found out, the rights to certain standards of housing and medical care, including mental health. There are other things states can scrimp on, but they must meet certain standards ones listed above or run afoul of the Feds. California's prison system has been under the jurisdiction of the Federal courts for violating those rights. I posted California's programs to show that even as cash strapped (what cash?) as our state is, we provide job training, education as well as the basics are being provided. As I've said all along, if those conditions aren't being met, then it is up to citizens to ensure the Feds know about it. For the purposes of this thread it's irrelevant. I started the thread in a state of rage over the absolute horror of a father, - a pediatrician no less - torturing his 11 year old daughter. His wife has confirmed witnessing it and doing nothing. His 5 year old daughter has stated she saw it happening and that it was punishment, but the she (the 5 year old) was too young for the same thing to happen to her. I am still p.o.'d that the father had such indifference to the terror and damage done to both daughters and the fact that he may have profited from it. For the purposes of this thread, I don't care about the prison system even though I've attempted a reasoned discussion with TSA and you on the side issue, until your last response to me got that anger directed at you. The prison system is not what my rant was about. Start one of your own on the prison system. My concern was and continues to be the victims in this case. You have your issues with American middle class women, one of my major hot button issues is the abuse of children who cannot protect themselves and that will always be my concern in this thread. For the purposes of THIS thread and this thread only my concern will be for the victims and not the perpetrator or the prison system.
--------------------
"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
|
Posted
saysay, I'm not happy about the "Fuck You" I shot your way, so though I'm not changing what I've consistently said throughout this thread, I do apologize for that.
--------------------
"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
|
Posted
Don't worry about it. saysay didn't mean what she said.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
saysay: quote:
Also, the thread is about a pediatrician in Delaware. Again I seem to find myself in a situation in which neither empirical nor personal/anecdotal evidence is allowed because people just know certain things are true.
As do you. You have your say, and she has hers. So who is not "allowing" you? Has a Hell host come along along and said, "that opinion is not allowed"? You are just convinced that your opinion trumps hers. And how dare she or anyone else say otherwise?
Besides, how are you so sure Niteowl is "middle class"? What the hell is a "middle class woman" besides being someone that you have put into your "refuse like or regard" box (with a few grudging exceptions)?
I don't live in poverty, but by most standards outside of my education (BA) I live somewhere in between working class and lower class standards. And I have most of my working life because of certain disabilities that finally derailed my working life altogether. My experience and firsthand knowledge have likely suffered because I have not lived a "middle class" existence.
And Niteowl has probably had a much more complicated life than mine, because just from her anecdotes on the Ship, I believe that she has had a vastly more wide and more interesting experience of life that I have. So I listen to her opinions and don't whine if they disagree with mine.
So you may take your prejudices and shove them, shipmate.
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
And I'm telling you we have a problem.
You do have a problem. That problem being that I fucking hate people who post eight sodding links in one sentence. Do it again and I will seriously consider editing your post to save myself the tedium of checking them all.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Which reckless allegation was that?
The one where you said quote:
People do not have those rights because people with authority have decided they want certain people (frequently black or brown people) punished for existing.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Because right now I am incredibly angry. I am incredibly angry at middle class women ....
Yes. We noticed. You keep telling us. Some skirt done you wrong and it's all you can think or talk about. It's tedious, and sooner or later you're really going to embarrass yourself. Go to Home Depot, buy a ladder, and get over it. OliviaG
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
OliviaG
You know, if you're going to change your name you should really stop signing off with your old one. Kinda defeats the point...
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
OliviaG
You know, if you're going to change your name you should really stop signing off with your old one. Kinda defeats the point...
It's because I'm a stupid middle class woman.
--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
saysay: You are just convinced that your opinion trumps hers. And how dare she or anyone else say otherwise?
My opinion does trump hers. I am telling the truth; she is not. I may never be able to convince anyone else, but whatever.
quote:
Besides, how are you so sure Niteowl is "middle class"? What the hell is a "middle class woman" besides being someone that you have put into your "refuse like or regard" box (with a few grudging exceptions)?
I have learned that if people don't act like they learned the lessons they should have learned on the playground, it probably means that they are (or at least grew up) middle class.
quote:
I don't live in poverty, but by most standards outside of my education (BA) I live somewhere in between working class and lower class standards. And I have most of my working life because of certain disabilities that finally derailed my working life altogether. My experience and firsthand knowledge have likely suffered because I have not lived a "middle class" existence.
Why are people always convinced that when I talk about class I'm talking about money? I'm sure your experience and firsthand knowledge have suffered because you haven't lived a "middle class" existence. Everybody suffers. Not everybody thinks you have to. But in the end, while you may be able to postpone it, you have to.
quote:
So I listen to her opinions and don't whine if they disagree with mine.
I'm not whining. I'm telling her she's wrong.
quote:
So you may take your prejudices and shove them, shipmate.
And also with you.
--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Which reckless allegation was that?
The one where you said quote:
People do not have those rights because people with authority have decided they want certain people (frequently black or brown people) punished for existing.
Because that's what they did. It's the broken windows theory, but they implemented it all wrong and wound up telling people they had to have certain things that they had to buy in order to comply with the law. You can't just go hunting, you have to buy a really really expensive permit to go hunting. You can't just grow your own food, you have to buy it because NIMBY(don't even get me started on Montasano). They won't let us do the things we need to do to take care of ourselves; they won't let us give our kids limits and enforce consequences when they break them, and then they wonder why our prisons are overflowing. The goddamned federal government told me what I had to do and what I couldn't do in my fucking classroom and my fucking house under the threat of federal punishment for violating those rules. They would not allow communities to work out the things that worked for them; they kept insisting that we shared a culture and that what worked for them was going to work for us.
What did they think was going to happen? Did they think that I was suddenly going to just become like them and start wanting and needing all the exact same things they did? They might as well have told me to grow wings and fly. Everybody keeps pointing their fingers but pointing our fingers is not going to help us at this point. People just need to stop being crybabies about it. Yeah, we get it. We all feel really sorry for the victims in this case. Stop telling us shit we already know and start telling us the shit we need to know in order to fix it.
--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
|
Posted
Ah, the classic irregular verb cries out for conjugation.
--------------------
Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
You need to look into what is actually happening in our so-called justice system. People do not have those rights because people with authority have decided they want certain people (frequently black or brown people) punished for existing.
While I'll not deny the justice systems in many countries do contain imbalance, it is not the whole of the issue. Even if justice truly were blind, there would be more black and brown people locked away. The larger issues are segregation and poverty. Both of those contribute to a higher crime rate regardless of the colour of skin. Balance for those and you'll find we are all, equally, bastards and angels.
BTW, it is not your classroom in any real sense. Nor is it completely your house. This is true in nearly every place it is practical to live. This is the price one pays for civilization.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
My opinion does trump hers. I am telling the truth; she is not.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
You really believe that your prejudices and opinions constitute "truth", don't you. You poor sad fool.
quote:
I have learned that if people don't act like they learned the lessons they should have learned on the playground, it probably means that they are (or at least grew up) middle class.
What lessons are they then?
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Which reckless allegation was that?
The one where you said quote:
People do not have those rights because people with authority have decided they want certain people (frequently black or brown people) punished for existing.
Because that's what they did.
Sorry, you're going to have to back that up with something more than your own demented ramblings or a bunch of articles about how many people get sent to jail before you'll get any credibility back.
quote:
Why are people always convinced that when I talk about class I'm talking about money?
Because you post stuff like:
quote:
It's the broken windows theory, but they implemented it all wrong and wound up telling people they had to have certain things that they had to buy in order to comply with the law. You can't just go hunting, you have to buy a really really expensive permit to go hunting. You can't just grow your own food, you have to buy it because NIMBY(don't even get me started on Montasano).
So is it about money or not?
quote:
The goddamned federal government told me what I had to do and what I couldn't do in my fucking classroom and my fucking house under the threat of federal punishment for violating those rules. They would not allow communities to work out the things that worked for them; they kept insisting that we shared a culture and that what worked for them was going to work for us.
What did they think was going to happen? Did they think that I was suddenly going to just become like them and start wanting and needing all the exact same things they did? They might as well have told me to grow wings and fly. Everybody keeps pointing their fingers but pointing our fingers is not going to help us at this point. People just need to stop being crybabies about it. Yeah, we get it. We all feel really sorry for the victims in this case. Stop telling us shit we already know and start telling us the shit we need to know in order to fix it.
What the fuck are you talking about, and what the ever-lovin' fuck has it got to do with a father waterboarding his daughter?
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
BTW, it is not your classroom in any real sense. Nor is it completely your house. This is true in nearly every place it is practical to live. This is the price one pays for civilization.
No shit sherlock. I learned that shit on the playground where I was supposed to learn it. The people who are being the problem did not, and now they won't even get into the game. But they're getting in the game one way or another, it just depends on whether they want to make things easy or difficult.
--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I learned that shit on the playground where I was supposed to learn it.
Then why did you post the opposite on this thread? Is this another joke?
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
What did the federal government tell you you couldn't do in your house ? And what did they tell you you couldn't do in your classroom ?
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
My bad, saysay. I responded to what you actually posted.
Bad lilBuddha!
Note to self: Schedule mind reading classes.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
OliviaG
You know, if you're going to change your name you should really stop signing off with your old one. Kinda defeats the point...
It's because I'm a stupid middle class woman.
Also there is a period after name changes where we are required to show our old name. Has that expired for this recent name change, or did the Martian just forget that fact?
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
saysay: You are just convinced that your opinion trumps hers. And how dare she or anyone else say otherwise?
My opinion does trump hers. I am telling the truth; she is not. I may never be able to convince anyone else, but whatever.
Your thinking that you are right is not a trump card.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
My opinion does trump hers. I am telling the truth; she is not.
You really believe that your prejudices and opinions constitute "truth", don't you. You poor sad fool.
I live to amuse.
But no, I don't think my opinions constitute truth. But I think that working together the opinions of people who actually live and work in DE count for more than the opinions of someone living in California, and I don't think you people are going to be able to convince me otherwise, try as you might.
quote:
I have learned that if people don't act like they learned the lessons they should have learned on the playground, it probably means that they are (or at least grew up) middle class.
quote:
What lessons are they then?
You have to include everyone who wants to play. You have to form teams, and you have to make the teams competitive, and if everyone is not having at least some amount of fun you have to change the game. You have to stand around talking about what you think is fair and right and why until some sort of consensus or majority view emerges. If you don't think people are playing fair, you can take your ball and go home. Those were the rules. Our parents and teachers enforced them.
But then I moved north, and it was like nobody knew this stuff. All the games were organized by the adults, who told people what they had to play and how they had to play it, and enforced the rules in a variety of ways, sometimes by kicking you off the team.
I managed to teach people what they needed to know, but then I got to college, where a bunch of our professors were somehow convinced that we needed to learn how to do this stuff and they kept trying to teach us and wondered why we kept getting really angry when they tried to organize us into teams. Left on our own we could pick teams that were fair to everybody and where everybody got something out of it; when they picked teams they were frequently simply volunteering us to tutor someone else. And we were angry because while we weren't required to attend college, we were required to take certain classes once we were there, and we didn't understand why we had to pay money in order to learn something we already knew. We kept trying to tell them what they needed to teach, but they wouldn't listen. They thought we were upset because we just couldn't take criticism, and you could not convince them otherwise.
quote:
So is it about money or not?
You people with your binary frickin thinking. There's a financial aspect to it, but it's not all about money.
quote:
What the fuck are you talking about, and what the ever-lovin' fuck has it got to do with a father waterboarding his daughter?
All right, you tell me. Should I answer people's questions, or should I refuse to answer them in order to stay "on topic," whatever that might mean, as no one will tell me what the topic of the conversation is.
--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Also there is a period after name changes where we are required to show our old name. Has that expired for this recent name change, or did the Martian just forget that fact?...
If you log in and post at the same time, as I am doing now, your sig doesn't show up.
And getting back to the subject, how is it possible that this guy was publishing his "research" and going on Oprah, and nobody asked where he was getting his data on children's near death experiences? I'm scared to look up his books; were they published by a vanity press?
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
|
Posted
Closer to the light : learning from children's near-death experiences / Melvin Morse with Paul Perry ; foreword by Raymond A. Moody. - New York : Villard Books, 1990.
Where God lives : the science of the paranormal and how our brains are linked to the universe / Melvin Morse with Paul Perry. - New York : Cliff Street Books, c2000.
Villard is an imprint of Random House, Cliff Street I think is an imprint of Harper Collins.
I don't think the books are couched in terms of "my method was to kill a child, revive him/her, and then question him/her about the experience"! The first one opens with an account of him being brought the body of a girl who'd drowned in a swimming pool.
--------------------
"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What did the federal government tell you you couldn't do in your house ? And what did they tell you you couldn't do in your classroom ?
Yeah, I am curious about this too.
I find the line of argument about letting communities decide what consequences are appropriate kind of scary. saysay, you are using the same kind of coded phrasing that people use who want to be allowed to "discipline" their children physically- and I mean like whipping with a belt, not a quick swat. No authority is telling working-class and minority parents that they can't set and enforce limits. That's bullshit. Nobody is even telling parents they can't spank, as long as they do it with an open hand and without leaving bruises. I would not use the "guvmint tellin' me I can't discipline my kids" argument anymore unless you want to sound like a scary asshole.
The culturally-appropriate-consequences line has been used to argue that minority children, especially, ought to be beaten.
(Maybe one of the NZ shipmates could comment- I think there has been similar debate over there because Maoris feel that white outsiders are interfering with their discipline methods.)
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Note to self: Schedule mind reading classes.
I advise strongly to the contrary. You have no idea what you may be confronted with.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Antisocial Alto:
saysay, you are using the same kind of coded phrasing that people use who want to be allowed to "discipline" their children physically- and I mean like whipping with a belt, not a quick swat.
Why does it always have to be a code with you people? Why can you not accept that I was raised to speak my mind, and while we may not be able to agree or understand each other and each other's point of view easily, we can do it if we make an honest effort?
quote:
No authority is telling working-class and minority parents that they can't set and enforce limits. That's bullshit. Nobody is even telling parents they can't spank, as long as they do it with an open hand and without leaving bruises.
You can't say that. You can't say that nobody in the world is even telling parents that. I am telling you that people are, and that parents are calling social services on other parents when they don't parent in a way that that parent likes, and that that is leading to people being arrested and charged with child abuse or neglect, because the definition of child abuse and neglect varies from person to person and prosecutors are insane. And the nurses and social workers and teachers can't figure out what to tell these parents who are then forced to take their classes, because while they think people shouldn't use spanking as their primary disciplinary system, they do think people should be allowed to use it, and they do think ten year-olds should be allowed to walk to the park, but they can't get the people in power to listen to them because a lot of the people in power are middle class women who are completely misogynistic, because they are some of the most misogynistic people I have ever run into in my life.
I give up. You people are completely hopeless.
Did everyone decide to swallow a stupid pill at some point? Was there just a great big pill labeled 'stupid' and people were like, hey, I think it would be fun to try that and see what happens? Is that the problem?
--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
|
Posted
The problem is that I'm not likely to implode, I'm likely to explode, and then other people will have to clean up the mess.
But mdijon keeps telling me to just give up because it isn't going to do any good, so I guess it's just time to walk away and find the people who are going to listen to me.
--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
... how is it possible that this guy was publishing his "research" and going on Oprah, and nobody asked where he was getting his data on children's near death experiences? I'm scared to look up his books...
See this Wikipedia piece on the Kinsey Reports, and this URL I found through Google, for a PDF about Kinsey and the pedophiles and the (ye gods!) Nazi torturer involved in what Kinsey was pleased to call research, on kids, regarding human sexuality.
Somebody, somewhere, may think that was OK. And somebody, somewhere, may think the doctor/stepdad in the OP was doing something useful and noble.
It amazes, what can be lauded as worthwhile, if you don't look too closely at the details.
--------------------
I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
|
Posted
We are listening. You're just not giving us any details to work with. If all you post is vague rantings, not even telling us what you were accused of, you can't expect strangers who don't know your situation to automatically agree with you.
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Why does it always have to be a code with you people?
I didn't say you, personally, were speaking in code. I said you were using the same type of phrasing as people who are. And that you should watch out for that if you don't want people to think you're some kind of nutcase.
quote:
...I am telling you that people are, and that parents are calling social services on other parents when they don't parent in a way that that parent likes, and that that is leading to people being arrested and charged with child abuse or neglect, because the definition of child abuse and neglect varies from person to person and prosecutors are insane.
OK, give me a documented example of an otherwise normal parent being convicted of a crime and punished, just for spanking. An investigation doesn't count. CPS has to investigate anytime someone calls them, even if they think it's crap- it's the rules.
By the way, I follow the Free-Range Kids blog, so I see a lot of those "Dad arrested for letting kids play alone in the park" news stories too (the charges were dropped on that one, by the way). But for the most part those horror stories don't seem to be class-based; I mean it's not the middle class purposely hassling the working class. Mostly they seem to be suburbanites harassing each other.
The pressure to coddle and over-supervise kids is coming from cable news ("Perverts lurking everywhere!! Hide your kids!!") and schools'/playgrounds'/businesses' fear of lawsuits. Not class warfare. When individuals call CPS on other parents, if it's not a revenge call, it's probably because they've been influenced by the news media to believe that all children are in constant danger.
This is not to say that there aren't any assholes out there who believe that poor and minority parents are bad parents. Just that those particular assholes aren't the main root of the problem.
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
See this Wikipedia piece on the Kinsey Reports, and this URL I found through Google, for a PDF about Kinsey and the pedophiles and the (ye gods!) Nazi torturer involved in what Kinsey was pleased to call research, on kids, regarding human sexuality. ...
It amazes, what can be lauded as worthwhile, if you don't look too closely at the details.
True. As I followed your links, I found that these allegations have been refuted by the Kinsey institute, and the woman who led the initial charge was abandoned by her lawyer and tossed out of court. Everybody's favourite hate group, the Family Research Council later got involved. And a Republican congressthing from Texas who tried to milk the issue. And a sensational BBC documentary. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) Allegations about Childhood data in the 1948 book, Sexual Behavior in the Human Male
Anyway, information about alleged ethical violations which weren't committed 60 years ago doesn't actually answer my question. (Although it did provide yet another horrifying glimpse into red-state sexual fantasies.)
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
There is much to fault in Kinsey's methodology without those allegations being true.
Regardless, if this man water-boarded his daughter for research does not make the crime more, or less, detestable.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Also there is a period after name changes where we are required to show our old name. Has that expired for this recent name change, or did the Martian just forget that fact?
Some people, in addition to their profile signatures, end their posts by typing their name. Soror (as she is now) being one of them. Except, in the post I was replying to, she frgot that and typed her old name in instead.
That's got nothing to do with the requirement to show previous names in profile signatures.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
