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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » No, Mark Betts, I am not going to leave it (Page 6)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: No, Mark Betts, I am not going to leave it
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Tho I still think Pyxe and leo would look great in mini skirts.

WTF?!

I would. He wouldn't.

[ 27. August 2012, 19:58: Message edited by: leo ]

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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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I wish to register a formal protest. This was the first thread I read in the morning after a good night's sleep. You all nearly made me choke on my breakfast with your descriptions of Greek pastry, Greek tragedy and a kind of Greek chorus.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Louise
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# 30

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It's quite an achievement in the field of stupidity for someone to somehow muddle himself up into thinking practicing Russian Orthodoxy is identical to practicing being a pillock on the internet, and that when he's being vilified for the latter, it is actually for the former.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
It's quite an achievement in the field of stupidity for someone to somehow muddle himself up into thinking practicing Russian Orthodoxy is identical to practicing being a pillock on the internet, and that when he's being vilified for the latter, it is actually for the former.

Although we've already seen a nearly identical phenomenon, right here on the Ship of Fools, if only you replace "Russian" with "Greek."

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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I like how he said he "flounced" his Hell call, as if that's a good thing? And "Lalalalalaa (I'm not listening)"? Isn't there a minimum age thing for the ship? Perhaps that's the problem here. He's acting like he's about 13. Maybe 12.

I think that the problem is there's no reliable emotional age verification system. Which is good, since I'd be tossed right out.

Now, as I'm home sick from work, I'm going to watch some more My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.

Actually, Spiff, watching a bit of MLP might be good for Bettsy—seeing a group of ponies resolve their differences, swallow their pride, admit their mistakes, and make it up to one another could give him the right idea. Of course, I'm willing to bet that he'd find Applejack too liberal, Rarity too outspoken (and deserving of "what she got,") and Twilight in need of a talking-to from her husband.

What does it mean when a bunch of cartoon ponies have a better clue about life than a Shipmate?

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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Oh, this is classic Bettsy:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
.... So let's hear the personal insults you've suffered on that thread which the Purgatory Hosts chose to overlook, in your opinion.

I think we're done with this particular incident now - I only referred to it because people insisted I give an example. The topic was supposed to be more of a general discussion, but on reflection maybe I did misunderstand the purpose of Styx threads.
Dear me, I call that pretty feeble.

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Porridge
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# 15405

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Whenever Mark gets tasked with "get specific" or "answer the point," he's all done with whatever's under discussion. What really gets my goat, though, is the thinly-veiled expectation that, because he's done, the thread can now be shut down.

The rest of us are just here to ride his coat-tails.

[ 28. August 2012, 01:44: Message edited by: Porridge ]

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Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
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Loquacious beachcomber
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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
The rest of us are just here to ride his coat-tails.

I'm not; I'm an individual.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Haydee:
The 4th thread! It's happened in The Styx. [Killing me]

Does the Apocalypse come now, or do we have to wait for the 7th thread/seal?

[Paranoid]

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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^ Best guard the gates of Heaven now. As well as those of Kerygmania.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Gee D
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# 13815

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Has he been in The Circus yet?

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Has he been in The Circus yet?

I think "Taking Offense" might be just the place for him . . .

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
I think that the problem is there's no reliable emotional age verification system. Which is good, since I'd be tossed right out.

Now, as I'm home sick from work, I'm going to watch some more My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.

Actually, Spiff, watching a bit of MLP might be good for Bettsy—seeing a group of ponies resolve their differences, swallow their pride, admit their mistakes, and make it up to one another could give him the right idea. Of course, I'm willing to bet that he'd find Applejack too liberal, Rarity too outspoken (and deserving of "what she got,") and Twilight in need of a talking-to from her husband.

What does it mean when a bunch of cartoon ponies have a better clue about life than a Shipmate?

I dunno. But MLP:FiM is on Netflix now and it's time for Winter Wrap-Up!

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Amazing Grace

High Church Protestant
# 95

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[Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me] Passive-Aggressive Styx Thread is definitely in the house! I'm surprised it took him so long, but he seems to have "folded" right on schedule. He tends to do that when he has to back what he says up [Biased] .

Anyway, yeah, it's remarkably stupid, and a stellar example of how to avoid taking responsibility for your own actions. I grew up in a family where the political opinion tended to be fairly far right and I don't think that's "conservative" behavior ... just "jerk" behavior. My late grandfather, who was politically to the right of Barry Goldwater, would have called him some choice names. He didn't like whiners.

It's not just a "right wing" thing ... I know someone who will tell anyone who will listen that she was not ordained a deacon because she was a lesbian, when the actual truth is that she never got put forward for ordination (and lots of other gay folks did) is that she is really, really unpleasant. She tried several parishes, all with the same result. But she so wants to believe this alternate version. It's a romantic story of suffering and lets her off the hook in her own mind.

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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Has he been in The Circus yet?

I've been working on a limerick this afternoon.

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RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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It saddens me to observe how many Old Timers are gleefully cavorting on this thread at the expense of an innocent newbie just because he's a conservative. (That he's a clueless fuckwit is purely coincidental.) Clearly, our christian mission here is a failure. We should pack up our baklava in our balaclavas and disband.

 

 

 

 

 

 

What does it take to get a Mousethief Cooler™ on this thread?

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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
What does it take to get a Mousethief Cooler™ on this thread?

How 'bout you and the Hellhosts singing songs from Disney movies.

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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I'd love that but...Disney™?! [Eek!]

Talk about copyright problems- the Mouse would roar!

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Evensong
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# 14696

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Tho I still think Pyxe and leo would look great in mini skirts.

WTF?!

I would. He wouldn't.

[Big Grin]

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a theological scrapbook

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Evensong
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# 14696

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I'm starting to feel dangerous pangs of sympathy and pity for Mark Betts.


(Must.Not.Stand.Up.For.The.Underdog.) (Must.Not.Stand.Up.For.The.Underdog.) (Must.Not.Stand.Up.For.The.Underdog.)

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a theological scrapbook

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Haydee
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# 14734

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Tho I still think Pyxe and leo would look great in mini skirts.

WTF?!

I would. He wouldn't.

But you must admit he looked stunning in the My Little Pony outfit the other day...
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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm starting to feel dangerous pangs of sympathy and pity for Mark Betts.


(Must.Not.Stand.Up.For.The.Underdog.) (Must.Not.Stand.Up.For.The.Underdog.) (Must.Not.Stand.Up.For.The.Underdog.)

I refuse to use the term "underdog" for someone who is not in a weak position through the random vicissitudes of life, but through their own rank stupidity.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
It's not just a "right wing" thing ... I know someone who will tell anyone who will listen that she was not ordained a deacon because she was a lesbian, when the actual truth is that she never got put forward for ordination (and lots of other gay folks did) is that she is really, really unpleasant. She tried several parishes, all with the same result. But she so wants to believe this alternate version. It's a romantic story of suffering and lets her off the hook in her own mind.

Aargh. As a gay man this thinking drives me completely NUTS. Persecution of gays and lesbians exists. Therefore, anything bad/negative must be because I'm gay/lesbian. As if there's nothing else that might be relevant.

Christians do the same thing of course. Every single bit of negativity that comes their way is a spot of blessed persecution. Never mind that 1 Peter blows that idea out of the water.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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Some cake to go with that cake you're having, Evensong?

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Evensong
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# 14696

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm starting to feel dangerous pangs of sympathy and pity for Mark Betts.


(Must.Not.Stand.Up.For.The.Underdog.) (Must.Not.Stand.Up.For.The.Underdog.) (Must.Not.Stand.Up.For.The.Underdog.)

I refuse to use the term "underdog" for someone who is not in a weak position through the random vicissitudes of life, but through their own rank stupidity.
Isn't Stupidity™ labelled as some kind of genetic disorder these days that entitles people to special allowances at work, government benefits and other such sundry things?

Poor Mark Betts. He's just the product of his genes.

It's not his responsibility he's so stupid.

He needs to be protected from those that might take advantage of his disability and treat him with harsh words.

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a theological scrapbook

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Stop fasting Evensong. The lack of food is clearly impairing your mental faculties.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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Wonderful set of cross-posts there. My comment should come after Evensong's last. And orfeo and I need to sort out the dietary advice.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm starting to feel dangerous pangs of sympathy and pity for Mark Betts.


(Must.Not.Stand.Up.For.The.Underdog.) (Must.Not.Stand.Up.For.The.Underdog.) (Must.Not.Stand.Up.For.The.Underdog.)

I refuse to use the term "underdog" for someone who is not in a weak position through the random vicissitudes of life, but through their own rank stupidity.
Isn't Stupidity™ labelled as some kind of genetic disorder these days that entitles people to special allowances at work, government benefits and other such sundry things?

Poor Mark Betts. He's just the product of his genes.

It's not his responsibility he's so stupid.

He needs to be protected from those that might take advantage of his disability and treat him with harsh words.

You mean a sheltered posting scheme? Part of the Big Society?

Now there's an idea. A bad one, but an idea...

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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I refuse to use the term "underdog" for someone who is not in a weak position through the random vicissitudes of life, but through their own rank stupidity.

All quips aside, I firmly believe all underdogs should be stood up for - regardless of their deserving that status or not.

I base this on two things:

1) Jesus was the undeserving underdog in the lead up to his crucifixion.

2) God still loves those that deserve underdog status. That notion must be met with solidarity.

(e.g) I abhor pedophiles. They are far from the truth and totally undeserving of God's love. They fuck lives up mightily.

Yet I was much struck by a conversation I had recently. The gist of it was that someone should be with that pedophile in jail. Someone must stand with them in trial.

Not to say they are right.

But to say God still loves them, and hopes that one day, and in some way, with some help from another loving human being - they may be redeemed.

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a theological scrapbook

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I refuse to use the term "underdog" for someone who is not in a weak position through the random vicissitudes of life, but through their own rank stupidity.

All quips aside, I firmly believe all underdogs should be stood up for - regardless of their deserving that status or not.
And I am firmly of the belief that the use of the term 'underdog', just because lots of people disagree with Mark Betts and think he's a fool, is a total and utter misuse of the word.

Otherwise the following people are underdogs:

The Phelps clan
Anders Breivik
Flat Earthers
Kevin Federline's music career

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I refuse to use the term "underdog" for someone who is not in a weak position through the random vicissitudes of life, but through their own rank stupidity.

All quips aside, I firmly believe all underdogs should be stood up for - regardless of their deserving that status or not.

I base this on two things:

1) Jesus was the undeserving underdog in the lead up to his crucifixion.

2) God still loves those that deserve underdog status. That notion must be met with solidarity.

(e.g) I abhor pedophiles. They are far from the truth and totally undeserving of God's love. They fuck lives up mightily.

Yet I was much struck by a conversation I had recently. The gist of it was that someone should be with that pedophile in jail. Someone must stand with them in trial.

Not to say they are right.

But to say God still loves them, and hopes that one day, and in some way, with some help from another loving human being - they may be redeemed.

But that by no means we have to put up with the behavior/sin when their position of underdog is self inflicted. Many shipmates have gone out of their way to try and assist Mark in getting along on the ship and trying to assist in his understanding of ship culture - only to be ignored or met with snide comments. He has made himself a martyr. As I said before, this saddens me because I've seen him contribute in a positive way on some threads, but there have been many of late where he's a total jerk. It's not his opinion, it's his behavior.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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Insomniac brain tonight: missed the edit window in the last post and the first sentence should be: But we by no means have to put up with...

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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Evensong, I'm with orfeo, I think, on the underdog thing - Mark Betts has chosen to behave the way he has despite lots of input from folks to try to help him. There may come a point when tough love has to step in and we have to assure him of our love but not tolerate his behaviour.

I hope, I sincerely hope, he will stick with the Ship as I think he has much to offer but unless he wants to end up with a Hell call a week until the Admins reach the end of their collective tethers he is going to have to modify his combative posting style.

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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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An underdog is a 'little guy' with few resources, and possibly not much talent or much hope for their cause, battling against the 'big guy' with power, resources, ability etc.

Eddie the Eagle was an under-dog, Tim Henman was an underdog. The Wyre Forest doctor over ten years ago, who became (was it?) an MP, on an independent ticket was an underdog, who actually proved he represented the underdogness of the ordinary person. Prisoners of conscience are underdogs. The Pakistani child being arrested for blasphemy is an underdog.

Mark Betts is not an underdog. He's someone with reasonable access and freedom to express valid personal views on a controversial issue, but who expresses himself, currently at least, badly and ungraciously.

Not always, though. I think he'll be a fine poster once he's found his feet here. But he's not an underdog. IMO, he's every bit as capable of stepping up to the plate as anyone else posting here. The crux is, does he want to choose to do that? I hope he stays around long enough for us to find out, in a positive way.

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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And I am firmly of the belief that the use of the term 'underdog', just because lots of people disagree with Mark Betts and think he's a fool, is a total and utter misuse of the word.

Otherwise the following people are underdogs:

The Phelps clan
Anders Breivik
Flat Earthers
Kevin Federline's music career

In my opinion, anyone that is on the receiving end of "mob mentality" or is in a minority position (for any reason) is an underdog.

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Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And I am firmly of the belief that the use of the term 'underdog', just because lots of people disagree with Mark Betts and think he's a fool, is a total and utter misuse of the word.

Otherwise the following people are underdogs:

The Phelps clan
Anders Breivik
Flat Earthers
Kevin Federline's music career

In my opinion, anyone that is on the receiving end of "mob mentality" or is in a minority position (for any reason) is an underdog.
In that event Mark doesn't qualify. The vast majority of old timers have tried to help Mark, not harm him. And he has been offered correction for behavior that is destructive in a social setting.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
In my opinion, anyone that is on the receiving end of "mob mentality" or is in a minority position (for any reason) is an underdog.

In my opinion you need a dictionary. Especially for the second part of that.

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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

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quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
In that event Mark doesn't qualify. The vast majority of old timers have tried to help Mark, not harm him. And he has been offered correction for behavior that is destructive in a social setting.

That sounds nice.

And the rest of the slagging off on this thread counts as.....?

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
In my opinion, anyone that is on the receiving end of "mob mentality" or is in a minority position (for any reason) is an underdog.

In my opinion you need a dictionary. Especially for the second part of that.
quote:
Definition of underdog from the Oxford Dictionary:
noun

a competitor thought to have little chance of winning a fight or contest
a person who has little status in society:

Or:


un·der·dog (ndr-dôg, -dg)
n.
1. One that is expected to lose a contest or struggle, as in sports or politics.
2. One that is at a disadvantage.


underdog [ˈʌndəˌdɒg]
n
1. the competitor least likely to win a fight or contest
2. a person in adversity or in a position of inferiority

Agrees with me I think.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Likely to lose what? The Ship isn't a sporting event or a war.

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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

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A debate. Or even a conversation. Or popular opinion. DUH.

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And I am firmly of the belief that the use of the term 'underdog', just because lots of people disagree with Mark Betts and think he's a fool, is a total and utter misuse of the word.

Otherwise the following people are underdogs:

The Phelps clan
Anders Breivik
Flat Earthers
Kevin Federline's music career

In my opinion, anyone that is on the receiving end of "mob mentality" or is in a minority position (for any reason) is an underdog.
In my opinion all of the above have put themselves in whatever position they are in. All we can do is take their spade away and implore them to stop digging further. Mark Betts is now in the same position and it is his obstinacy, not a lack of charity in others, that prevents an improvement to his situation.

A true underdog is in a lowly position through no choice of their own and often despite their best efforts. I don't think Mark Betts is one of those.

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Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
A debate. Or even a conversation. Or popular opinion. DUH.

Yeah, but WHY likely to lose?

If Roger Federer starts playing with his right hand tied behind his back and an eyepatch to totally ruin his depth perception, that does NOT make him an underdog. It makes him someone totally failing to use the resources actually available to him.

This is pretty much what several of us have been trying to convey to you. An underdog is someone who is at a disadvantage through circumstance. Not someone who is incompetent.

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Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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The person likely to win a debate is the person with the best arguments and evidence. Has nothing to do with being ganged up on or not.

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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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Besides, Evensong, to be on the side of a persecuted minority is one thing, and always to support the losing side in a debate is another. By that logic, if you ever found yourself winning an argument, you'd promptly have to turn round and start arguing the other way.

Meanwhile, over in Purg, your underdog is arguing that six months in jail is a reasonable sanction for protesting briefly in a church. You want to join him in that? You take the wheel, Bettsy can pass you the butterfly.

[ 28. August 2012, 14:20: Message edited by: QLib ]

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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At this point I'm wishing Mark would seriously engage in debate. Aside from one post of his that did get answered back in detail, he's down to one liners that either accuse me of exaggerating without explaining how or where or simply his view is better without back up or one liners that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. I want to engage with him, but he doesn't seem to know how to deal with people who disagree with him. Perhaps it's a learning curve in being with people who have varying opinions as it's quite rare in this era of hanging with and seeing only churches/people/media that agree with your opinions and world view.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504

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I think you've done astoundingly, Niteowl. You have more patience than me.

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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There really is no point saying anything to Evensong, is there? Both on this and the Fasting thread it seems absolutely impossible to make even the simplest communication to her without it being undermined, insulted, dismissed, perverted and misconstrued. Whether deliberately or not, only Evensong knows.

I never thought this would happen - 'cos basically I'm an optimist - but I think my 'giving the benefit of the doubt' has just hit rock bottom.

It's tempting to think Mark Betts and Evensong are one of a kind; but actually I think Evensong really does think the Ship is a kind of toy, and it doesn't matter if she treats the other posters as cardboard cut-outs in her private puppet-show. Whereas I don't think Mark is like that.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Besides, Evensong, to be on the side of a persecuted minority is one thing, and always to support the losing side in a debate is another. By that logic, if you ever found yourself winning an argument, you'd promptly have to turn round and start arguing the other way.

You could say that people incapable of arguing and supporting their position are perennial underdogs on the Ship of Fools. Small wonder Eversmug feels affinity with them.

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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
There really is no point saying anything to Evensong, is there? Both on this and the Fasting thread it seems absolutely impossible to make even the simplest communication to her without it being undermined, insulted, dismissed, perverted and misconstrued. Whether deliberately or not, only Evensong knows. ...

actually I think Evensong really does think the Ship is a kind of toy, and it doesn't matter if she treats the other posters as cardboard cut-outs in her private puppet-show.

I think that's it - most of the time Evensong is having fun, and trying to be amusing (very trying, ha,ha). Except sometimes she is in earnest and we're supposed to be able to tell which is which. Tricky, because in either mode she can't resist cheap point scoring even when it detracts or distracts from the main argument.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
There really is no point saying anything to Evensong, is there? Both on this and the Fasting thread it seems absolutely impossible to make even the simplest communication to her without it being undermined, insulted, dismissed, perverted and misconstrued. Whether deliberately or not, only Evensong knows. ...

actually I think Evensong really does think the Ship is a kind of toy, and it doesn't matter if she treats the other posters as cardboard cut-outs in her private puppet-show.

This.

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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged



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