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Source: (consider it) Thread: Football - Euro 2012
Sylvander
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quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
It's probably merely unfortunate timing, like the way penalty shoot outs became a questionable way to decide a final after an English team beat a German team.
JtW

I seriously thought: What is he talking about? until I clicked the link.
Funny, I never think of Chelsea as an English team in any way. How many Englishmen did they field in that game? Are they not more of a Russian club? Or a Russian money box perhaps?

But I'd be content if there was another chance for real Englishmen to try and beat us on penalties next week [Biased] It would mean we went through against Greece and you'd beaten Italy!

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Imaginary Friend

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Oh for Goodness' sake. If it wasn't for injuries, there'd be four Chelsea players in England's starting XI at the Euros this summer, more than from United, City, Liverpool and Arsenal.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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ken
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Tho the English Premier League still seems to want to position itself as a sort of World Championship of club football. The place all the best players go to play each other regardless of what country they come from. They just have to do something about Barca...

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Cod
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Ch***** fielded 3 English-qualified players (Cahill, A Cole, Lampard) and had two others (Turnbull, Sturridge) on the bench. Terry, of course, was suspended.

Re English players in the Prem: according to the Torygraph out of 650 players-

267 were English
40 were ROI
28 were Welsh (10 of which played for Swansea)
22 were Scottish
8 were Northern Irish

[ 22. June 2012, 20:00: Message edited by: Cod ]

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Tom Day
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England are also the only team at the European Championships to have all their squad playing in their own National League. Which actually could be a problem as it might be good for our game if some of our players actually play abroad.

In the championship itself the Greece / Germany game has come alive - Germany should have killed the Greeks of by now but it is looking much more open game then the 1st half. And it was a great finish for the Germans 2nd goal.

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rolyn
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There you go England . Win the Italy game and your reward will be a semi-final place against Germany .

[Help] [Help]

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Imaginary Friend

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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
And it was a great finish for the Germans 2nd goal.

Was it? The replays I saw made it looked like he shinned it. Could've gone anywhere! Lucky git.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
And it was a great finish for the Germans 2nd goal.

Was it? The replays I saw made it looked like he shinned it. Could've gone anywhere! Lucky git.
Khedira got in position to hit it well and that, as much as what part of his body made contact, determined where the ball went.

Some of the most spectacular goals have been mishits. Louis Saha sliced one in a European cup match, so instead of going towards one corner of the goal, it curved away to the other corner, giving the keeper no chance!

Going back far enough I'm sure most of my 'headers' came off one shoulder or another.

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Tom Day
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
There you go England . Win the Italy game and your reward will be a semi-final place against Germany .

[Help] [Help]

I'm wondering whether I would prefer to lose to Italy in he quarters then be beaten in another Semi Final by the Germans. Or maybe the Germans have peaked to soon.... We can only hope!

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Johnny S
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
There you go England . Win the Italy game and your reward will be a semi-final place against Germany .

[Help] [Help]

I'm wondering whether I would prefer to lose to Italy in he quarters then be beaten in another Semi Final by the Germans. Or maybe the Germans have peaked to soon.... We can only hope!
Getting to watch it would at least be a start.

For some bizarre reason SBS (here in Australia) has decided only to show the Czech vs Portugal and Spain vs France games live.

This in the week that the 2011 census results have just been released - confirming what we already knew ... that a significant number of Australians were born in England, Greece and Italy (i.e. wanting to watch the two games not being shown.)

Normally I would find a pub with foxtel to watch the game but I don't really fancy that at 4.45am on Monday morning.

[ 23. June 2012, 09:59: Message edited by: Johnny S ]

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
There you go England . Win the Italy game and your reward will be a semi-final place against Germany .

[Help] [Help]

I'm wondering whether I would prefer to lose to Italy in he quarters then be beaten in another Semi Final by the Germans. Or maybe the Germans have peaked to soon.... We can only hope!
Absurd overconfident prediction (1): England/Italy 0-0 at full time. England win 1-0 after extra time, or possibly after penalties. The game consists almost entirely of half-hearted futile tentative attacks from either side being brutally and effeciently crushed by the defence. At least one Chelsea player gets a well-deserved red card.

Absurd overconfident prediction (2): England/Germany. England ahead at half time. Possibly even two goals ahead. Then in the second half the Germans stop taking the piss and stgart playing and go on to win 5-2. The English defence so solid against France and Ukraine (and I suspect against Italy) turns out not to work against younger fitter players who can run faster than they can and who are also better trained and managed than they are. At least one Chelsea player gets taken off injured after foolishly getting in the way of Schweinsteiger determined to score a goal.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Imaginary Friend

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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
Or maybe the Germans have peaked to soon.... We can only hope!

I fear that they're still warming up. Schweinsteiger can't be this bad for the whole tournament* and Özil wasn't firing on all cylinders yesterday. If these two come good and Gomez shows his usual form then they'll be almost impossible to beat.

* Even though there's plenty of talk on Chelsea forums about how we broke Bayern players, c.f. Robben.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
Or maybe the Germans have peaked to soon.... We can only hope!

I fear that they're still warming up. Schweinsteiger can't be this bad for the whole tournament* and Özil wasn't firing on all cylinders yesterday. If these two come good and Gomez shows his usual form then they'll be almost impossible to beat.

SEVEN of the Germans have scored in four games. And that doesn't include Schweinsteiger, Özil, or Müller - all three of of them have scored more international goals than anyone on the England team other than Rooney, Defoe, and Gerrard, despite being on average five years younger.

Or if you look at goals per game, Schweinsteiger consistently gets about one in every four international games (at Bayern its only about one in ten, presumably they play him more defensively). Of the Germans who have played in ten or more internationals that makes him the fifth most frequent scorer, after Klose, Gomez, Podolski and Müller (in that order) but ahead of Özil. If he was in the England team he'd be about third equal wth Young, after Defoe and Rooney but well ahead of Gerrard.

I think Schweinsteiger has become my second-favourite international player, afer Messi [Biased] One day it might be Carroll, but he'd probably need to go back to Newcastle (which I honestly think he will one day) for that. Not that he is likely to care what I think of it. Carroll vs. Schweinsteiger would be some contest. If it was played out in a back alley off the Bigg Market in Newcastle at 2am on a Friday night, Carroll would probably win easily. On a football pitch? Probably not.

And the man of the tournament for England so far? Hart, without a shadow of a doubt.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Tom Day
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:


And the man of the tournament for England so far? Hart, without a shadow of a doubt.

I'd have probably said Gerrard as he has set up 3 of our 5 goals. And Johnson has really impressed me at right back - I thought he would have been our defensive weak link but he seems to be the strongest.


France / Spain tonight. Hoping the Spanish play at least one striker and try and do something with their possession. Should be a good game.

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Imaginary Friend

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Johnson's only looked passable because Milner's spent all his time helping out. In contrast, on the left, Cole's done a good job and allowed Young to get forward.

As for Spain, I was rather enjoying their attempt to construct a conceptual expression on the futility of modern life symbolized by the absence of a center forward. As theoretical artistic works go, I would rate it quite highly.

[ 23. June 2012, 15:25: Message edited by: Imaginary Friend ]

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Imaginary Friend

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Spain: specializing in self-parody. [Disappointed]

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Sylvander
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I hope the English players are not as defeatist as you sound - in case they go through tonight. Which I sincerely hope (will be watching with English friends in Irish pub in Frankfurt).
At least you have beaten us in tournaments a few times. Which is more than germany has managed against Italy...

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Tom Day
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quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
I hope the English players are not as defeatist as you sound - in case they go through tonight. Which I sincerely hope (will be watching with English friends in Irish pub in Frankfurt).
At least you have beaten us in tournaments a few times. Which is more than germany has managed against Italy...

I don't think we are being defeatist, just realistic. We are not the best side at these championships - prob in the top 4/5 but not the best. Germany are better, Spain and Portugal play better football. However, I am still going for us for the win tonight - 2-1 I reckon.

Tom

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Johnny S
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Well that was one of the most bizarre games of football I have ever seen.

I don't care what the press says do what it takes to win the game. If the strategy is to defend and then nick one then fair enough.

But what is totally beyond me is that England were obviously playing for penalties in extra time - why do that if you clearly (particularly if your name's Ashley) do not want to take them?

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trouty
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Ashley 'Wanker' Young should never play for England again. I'm not saying this just because he missed a penalty. He was shit throughout the whole match, whole competition even. The only reason he is in the team is because he is part of the Man Utd mafia. Does anyone think he would be in the team if he still played for Villa?
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Sioni Sais
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England were fortunate to hang on for 120 minutes, but I'm please we were knocked out, if only to avoid another embarassing defeat against Germany. Had it been a boxing bout, the referee would have stopped it after 90 minutes. Oh, and the Man Utd contingent was rubbish.

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Jigsaw
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Any other result would have been unfair on the Italians.
As well as Ashley Young (didn't ya just know he would fluff his penalty?) Rooney must bear some blame; had he been eligible to play in the first round he might have regained the match sharpness he so sadly lacked in the last 2 games.
But, a good start by Hodgson and some promise for the future.
Oh, and it pains me to say it, but it was right to take Terry rather than Rio.
Now, I'm off to take the England flags down from the porch and the car.....

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Imaginary Friend

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What everyone else said. Rooney was terrible, Young anonymous (apart from the obvious penalty miss), Milner inept, and the defensive unit incoherent (although all four of them made excellent individual interventions at various key times). All-in-all, we deserved to lose. I just feel bad that Ashley Cole will get the hate for what was an undeserving team performance.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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balaam

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To be fair to Rooney he was OK - not good, but OK - in the first half except when he went into the air. There seemed to be be some extra gravity holding him down which didn't affect other players. Even on the overhead kick he was not high enough.

The second half and extra time, how many England attacks went the way of Carroll gets the ball, passes ball to Rooney, Rooney loses the ball.

England's player of the tournament has to be Joe Hart.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
To be fair to Rooney he was OK - not good, but OK - in the first half except when he went into the air. There seemed to be be some extra gravity holding him down which didn't affect other players. Even on the overhead kick he was not high enough.

The second half and extra time, how many England attacks went the way of Carroll gets the ball, passes ball to Rooney, Rooney loses the ball.

England's player of the tournament has to be Joe Hart.

Rooney was some way off his best for England, but that ended when he limped off in the Euro 2004 quarter-final against Portugal, and he's not been near it since.

We'll probably have Carroll and Sturridge as our front two at the World Cup in 2014, if we qualify.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Imaginary Friend

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quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
England's player of the tournament has to be Joe Hart.

Nah - EBJT (CLL).

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Sylvander
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I don't think england were THAT bad. We have all seen the defending team winning games like that one. They had for or five very good chances and defended with pluck and luck.
And had the ref punished only one of the many occasions when Italians pulled on white shirts in the box...
At least England now have a good goalie. He's young and may see the day when England also produce confident penalty takers. Could be a while, though.
Now I fear the worst on Thursday. Losing to Italy for us is like losing to Germany fis for you guys [Biased]

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2509

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
England's player of the tournament has to be Joe Hart.

Clearly.

Maybe he should have taken a penalty.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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rolyn
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Welbeck deserved a medal IMO, he worked really hard throughout .

Still can't help thinking Rooney obsession overshadows the new talent . Fairy-nuff, *if* Rooney's over-head kick, near the end of normal time, had found the net ? OK he'd now be the hero of the hour.
It didn't, so the familiar tale of 'ifs' and English tournament football goes on.

Good luck to you German guys . If it does turn out a Germany / Spain final I'd quite like to see Germany put a spanner into Spain's laborious tactic of winning matches by maximizing ball possession .

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shamwari
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What upsets me is that England are making much of the fact that "we gave 100% all round effort".

isnt that what professionals are paid obscene amounts to do?

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
What upsets me is that England are making much of the fact that "we gave 100% all round effort".

isnt that what professionals are paid obscene amounts to do?

England teams have given 100% for decades now, to little good effect. No, that's unfair, we do well in age-group tournaments because our players are physically strong (many kids get selected by clubs for strenth rather than skill) but by the time it's men vs men, technique, talent and skill beat hard work every time. That's why Young and Rooney were chasing their first touch all night.

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Imaginary Friend

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quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Isnt that what professionals are paid obscene amounts to do?

I'm not sure they are paid to represent England, are they?

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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shamwari
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If you watched the TV then it was clear that England defended with two straight lines of 4 and they were as rigid as the day is long.

It was effective defensive play. ( If you include all the "blocks" with players throwing themselves in front of shots with no guarantee that they would get in the way or not.)

But you cannot break out into attack from so rigid a defensive position. Sliding into tackles, throwing your body at possible shots simply leaves players on their backsides from which position they cannot go forward with positive intent.

On another issue. I would fine every forward £1000 for any shot that goes way over the crossbar. They are professionals. Basic professionalism means you should keep a shot down, not balloon it skywards.

They can afford the fines.

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Jonah the Whale

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Sylvander:
quote:
And had the ref punished only one of the many occasions when Italians pulled on white shirts in the box...
I think it would be an idea to put an extra ref at each end to keep an eye on what goes on in the box. Oh, wait...
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Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630

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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Isnt that what professionals are paid obscene amounts to do?

I'm not sure they are paid to represent England, are they?
They do get paid but I am sure that they give their wages to a charity (from wikipedia - England players donate all their pay for international matches to charity causes via the Team England Footballers Charity, which in 2009 was raising awareness about bowel cancer.)

So really, by losing to the Italians they are also letting the charity down!

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Sylvander
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# 12857

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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
They do get paid but I am sure that they give their wages to a charity (from wikipedia - England players donate all their pay for international matches to charity causes via the Team England Footballers Charity,

REALLY?!
Wow. Sounds good.
German players never would agree to that.
But at the end of the day it is their job. Who'd expect me to do my job for free "for my country"? Especially with all other parties involved (fonctionaries, journalists, advertisers, VIP lounge regulars) most definitely do not donate the money they generate through a tornamnent.

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A martyr is someone living with a saint.
2509

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LeRoc

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Am I the only one who doesn't care anymore who will win the Euro Cup?

quote:
Jonah the Whale: It's probably merely unfortunate timing, like the way penalty shoot outs became a questionable way to decide a final after an English team beat a German team.
After a couple of drinks, a friend of mine suggested the following: if after the official 90 minutes the score is still equal, start extra time. If after 5 minutes none of the teams have scored, bring an extra ball into the game. After another 5 minutes, a third ball. The first team to score wins.

At least this will be fun to watch! [Snigger]

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Johnny S
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# 12581

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
After a couple of drinks...

Only a couple?
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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
Johnny S: Only a couple?
In fact, they were. But I have to admit that these drinks were Belgian Duvels.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630

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quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
They do get paid but I am sure that they give their wages to a charity (from wikipedia - England players donate all their pay for international matches to charity causes via the Team England Footballers Charity,

REALLY?!
Wow. Sounds good.
German players never would agree to that.
But at the end of the day it is their job. Who'd expect me to do my job for free "for my country"? Especially with all other parties involved (fonctionaries, journalists, advertisers, VIP lounge regulars) most definitely do not donate the money they generate through a tornamnent.

I suppose though it's not their day job is it - It is extra and a compliment to be chosen to represent your country. And with the wages the England players are on anyway...

Tom

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My allotment blog

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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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What a let-down that game was! Spain were really sluggish and Portugal sat back after the first twenty minutes. I don't think there's any realistic chance of Germany being upset now. [Frown]

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643

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It's never been their day job and hasn't been for a long while, which perhaps explains why England were so spectacularly unsuccessful in the 70s and 80s despite having all those great players.
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
In fact, they were. But I have to admit that these drinks were Belgian Duvels.

I still think that it would take about 10 Leffe Blond to come up with your plan.
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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
Johnny S: I still think that it would take about 10 Leffe Blond to come up with your plan.
I'm guessing you never had a Duvel! [Biased]

Come to think of it, every time a game ends with equal score, the teams could resort to drinking games to decide who'll be the winner. At the very least, I guess this would improve England's chances to win (unless you're in the final against Russia) [Razz]

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

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Last night's game was interesting.

Normally teams stand back and watch Spain pass it about. Portugal hunted after the ball for as long as they could. They got Spain looking a bit concerned. Spain looked their usual self in extra-time, something I put down to Portugal getting knackered and Spain actually trying to attack during that time.

Compare Portugal's play to England's in their second half against Italy. As is Hodgson's want, they sat back and watched Italy passing it about. Unlike with Portugal, they didn't try to get the ball. For that reason, England hardly touched the ball (I seem to recall reading that they touched the ball about 15 times in 20 minutes). Here are some damning statistics that show them to be only behind Ireland and Greece in terms of lack of possession of the ball. That's Hodgson all over. It worked well at small teams, but when he has class players it doesn't.

Rooney was shite. It was as if he was coming back from injury, not from a ban. The biggest threats was from the wings, with Johnson and Milner working well on the right, with Cole occasionally coming forward on the left. Parker was terrible. Gerrard was too deep to influence attacking play, though he was their best outfield player over all (certainly, he was more creative than any other English player).

As I said before the competition, I believe that Germany will win it. It would be a tremendous achievement for Spain to win three tournaments in a row, and I believe it to be beyond them.

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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Gerrard was too deep to influence attacking play, though he was their best outfield player over all (certainly, he was more creative than any other English player).


It's damning that one outstanding cross in four games makes a player that team's most creative!

Carroll looks less out of place now. Had those around him been able to do more than chase their own first touch, England might have done better.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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ESPN, who is covering Euro in the States, has been questioning the decision to have Ronaldo kick fifth for Portugal; a decision that eventually meant that one of the best spot kickers in the game didn't even get a shot.

I guess I can understand the logic of having your best player go last. But it does seem like a psychological edge in a shoot out is pretty major. You could make an argument that as soon as the Spanish player missed the first shot, Ronaldo should have gone in and done his thing, hopefully putting the pressure on Spain for the rest of the shoot out.

Any thoughts on the better strategy?

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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If I was in that situation I would not mess up the order: look at the state Bruno Alves got in once he had walked up to the wrong kick! No wonder he missed.

I'd have my very best penalty taker third of five. He will always get to take one, and will be in the position to turn things round if the opposition are 2-0 or 3-0 ahead. Alternatively, he could end it, but as our best he ought not to beat himself up about losing it. My next best two go first and second and if I have left and right-footed players, I'd mix them up, especially when it comes to sudden death.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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Holy cow, Italy up 2-0 at the half. I got a chance to watch that first goal, and it was something. Perfect jump behind the defender, perfect ball placement, completely flummoxed the German keeper, who was still on his feet as the ball went in. I didn't fancy the Italians in this match, but I guess they were ready.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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If the first goal was something , then the second goal was something else . And what about the goal celebration from Balitello [Eek!]
Well worth the yellow card .

The last minute penalty was small consolation for a German side that ,uncharacteristically, never took control of the game .

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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