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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The minute you have a child, you are relegated to 2nd place.

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Originally posted by E to the i pi:
That is an interesting take on the situation. But would any Christian be willing to pledge allegiance to the Kingdom of Heaven rather than the individual?

(I hope that's general enough).

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If you're British, you swear allegiance to the Crown, as personified by Her Maj QEII. And in olden times, if you believed in the Divine Right of kings, to quote Louis the (XX-ish, I can never remember which), "L'Etat, c'est moi". I am the State.

The New Testament was written at a time when the king/emperor was the very embodiment of the people, and a lot of theology in it (and afterwards, up to post-medieval times) is couched in those terms. A whole theory of atonement (Anselm's Satisfaction theory, and no shipmates, we're so not going there ) is based around medieval concepts of fealty and honour.

Jesus is our King, not our husband (and for the record, I'm a straight bloke).

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Forward the New Republic

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It's more akin to having your partner change nationality and their allegiance is to another country. Odd, but not insurmountable, and the only real effect is if there's a war on between your country and theirs.

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My atheist husband says he thinks it's a bit more complicated than that. And it's not just about the time element either, though he has a reciprocal "other woman" in sailing which takes up a roughly equivalent amount of time and interest as the practical bits of God stuff do to me.

He does feel, or rather did, that there's a 3rd "thing" in the marriage, which is God. But this was the state of affairs before we married, so we've had it much easier than Theophania and Pi fella.

It is, perhaps, a question of personalities and which bits of faith you actually talk about. Apparantly (this isn't something we discuss often!) I talk a lot about faith, and trying to understand what God meant or did by xyz, but I don't discuss Jesus in starry-eyed, breathlessly excited terms - not to suggest you do either, Theophania, ofc. He thinks he'd find that rather more difficult.

And I get irrationally grumpy at the start of every sailing season where said husband is bouncing up and down like an over-excited schoolboy at the prospect of a day's sailing, especially if I'm already tired and grumpy and the kids are fighting. So, yes, in a tiny way, I think I get it. It's not the time, or any sort of infidelity, it's that something else makes him this happy and it's not me. That's not mature, and it's not rational, but sometimes it rankles.

The whole God thing bothers my husband much less now. He comes to church occasionally (when it doesn't clash with sailing) even on church weekends away and thinks it's been rather a journey over 12 years or so. From my point of view, having an atheist husband over the process of nearly losing my own faith, has been A Good Thing.

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
... The problem is having something that is considered to be ultimately more important than the relationship. It doesn't matter if it's another person, a sport or a god - if when push came to shove the person would chose it over the relationship then it's a threat. ...

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But why should push come to shove? There isn't necessarily a conflict unless the two people decide to make it one e.g. by demanding a choice between football and church on Sundays. Any reason why they can't go separately, or alternate, or do something else entirely, or whatever? I think something is seriously awry in a relationship if it does reach the ultimatum stage, but I also believe it was awry before the two choices presented themselves. They're just the pretext for indulging in a bit of an "if you loved me" control game, which in itself is a sign of insecurity. (Trust me, I've been on both sides of the game. )

Relationships by their nature and variety aren't necessarily either/or, zero-sum arrangements (obviously some are). We can have lots of friends, and our friends don't ask to be ranked against, say, our jobs or family members or whatnot. As Henry Higgins asked, "Would you be livid if I took out another fellow?" OliviaG

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Originally posted by E to the i pi:
I'm a non-Trinitarian atheist, so I don't see that as just a substitution.

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Originally posted by E to the i pi:
I don't think I've ever been called apon to give the loyal toast (I'm neither a member of the of armed forces, nor an MP.) If I were called I'm not sure whether I would do so or not. There are plenty of religious groups that would agree with me on that bit.

In other words, make heaven into a constitutional monarchy with a directly elected head of government and I'll start being more interested.

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Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
My atheist husband says he thinks it's a bit more complicated than that. And it's not just about the time element either, though he has a reciprocal "other woman" in sailing which takes up a roughly equivalent amount of time and interest as the practical bits of God stuff do to me.

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Any analogy breaks down if you push it far enough. Currently, I'm more than a little involved with a pseudo-16th century Austrian town, and will be for the probably the next 12 months. Guaranteed I'll spend more time there than here, and with fictional Jews, princes and librarians than with my wife. And I wasn't an author when I got married: be glad it's only sailing...

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Forward the New Republic

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If you're British, you swear allegiance to the Crown, as personified by Her Maj QEII.

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I don't get why so many people are finding that very simple problem so hard to understand.

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Because, as someone said up-thread, it's as big a category error to see Jesus as a romantic love rival as it is to see a son or daughter as a romantic love rival.

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Originally posted by OliviaG:
But why should push come to shove? There isn't necessarily a conflict unless the two people decide to make it one e.g. by demanding a choice between football and church on Sundays.

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think each of the examples you gave, Marvin, would be issues to be worked out within the framework of the marriage. So far as I'm aware, the marriage promises do not exclude either of the partners from the possibility of a genuine change of mind on such matters. Such issues can be worked on, and worked out, if there is love and goodwill at work.

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I don't get why so many people are finding that very simple problem so hard to understand.

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Because, as someone said up-thread, it's as big a category error to see Jesus as a romantic love rival as it is to see a son or daughter as a romantic love rival.

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I wasn't talking about a romantic rival per se, as my inclusion of "sport" in the list of things that can cause such a problem should really have indicated.

It's about your partner having something else in their life that's more important to them than you. Something that, if it became necessary, they would leave you for. A romantic love rival is only one of many things that may be in that category, but they all potentially lead to the same place - separation. Hence why they're all threats.

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think each of the examples you gave, Marvin, would be issues to be worked out within the framework of the marriage. So far as I'm aware, the marriage promises do not exclude either of the partners from the possibility of a genuine change of mind on such matters. Such issues can be worked on, and worked out, if there is love and goodwill at work.

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...and as long as both partners are coming from the same perspective in terms of what's really important.

But religious moral imperatives don't work like that, do they? Catholics don't get a pass on using contraception just because their non-religious partner doesn't want (any more) kids. Someone who now believes strongly in spiritual warfare isn't going to blithely accept their kids going out at halloween dressed as demons, regardless of how much the kids have enjoyed it in previous years.

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's about your partner having something else in their life that's more important to them than you. Something that, if it became necessary, they would leave you for. A romantic love rival is only one of many things that may be in that category, but they all potentially lead to the same place - separation. Hence why they're all threats.

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Originally posted by Theophania:

quote:

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originally posted by Evensong:
What if Jesus was female?

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He'd find that a lot easier to deal with, he says.

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Does he understand you're not having a relationship with Jesus' male parts?

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Originally posted by Alisdair:
For a start the man in question has been out of 'the market' for 2,000 odd years. For another, what does your position imply for any other male friends your wife may have? And for a third, anyone who seriously sets out to follow Christ's way, very quickly learns that the call to put Christ (God) first is a call to truly understand the meaning of love for others, and that is expressed powerfully in the relationship between a husband and a wife.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by Alisdair:
And for a third, anyone who seriously sets out to follow Christ's way, very quickly learns that the call to put Christ (God) first is a call to truly understand the meaning of love for others, and that is expressed powerfully in the relationship between a husband and a wife.

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But in that situation the husband or wife is still coming second. A close second perhaps, but second nonetheless.

The problem is having something that is considered to be ultimately more important than the relationship. It doesn't matter if it's another person, a sport or a god - if when push came to shove the person would chose it over the relationship then it's a threat.

I don't get why so many people are finding that very simple problem so hard to understand.

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Much of what we believe about marriage is a romantic fiction. It's lovely talking about nothing coming before your spouse, but it's not true for any of us. The minute you have a child, you are relegated to 2nd place. Do something to hurt that child and you will find that out right quick.

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quote:

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Originally posted by E to the i pi:
That is an interesting take on the situation. But would any Christian be willing to pledge allegiance to the Kingdom of Heaven rather than the individual?

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posted by Barnabas62:
Learning to live with differences of outlook is common to all marriages, isn't it? Maybe what made it easier in our case is that we were not Christian when we married and so we both experienced conversion within the framework of our marriage? Not sure. I think we argued more in the first five years after conversion than we did before!

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Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:

quote:

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Originally posted by Theophania:

quote:

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originally posted by Evensong:
What if Jesus was female?

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He'd find that a lot easier to deal with, he says.

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Does he understand you're not having a relationship with Jesus' male parts?

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Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
Our human nature is inclined to be co-dependent with other people; I think this is because we were built to be co-dependent with God but it's easier to be co-dependent with a physically-present human than a spiritually-accessed God.

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:
In the old marriage vows, women had to "honour and obey" their husbands. But I don't think that was ever meant to apply to their religious views... "..for better for worse, as long as ye both shall live" seems more appropriate.

If a couple marry, and both are atheists, does that mean either one is barred from changing their minds unless they both convert at exactly the same time?

In simple terms, I think he needs to cut her some slack, and remember that she is still his wife. He could even listen to her now and again.. you never know, he might learn something.

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Originally posted by E to the i pi:
I would suggest to anyone that is considering a significant change in their philosophy of life (whether to or frrom belief, or from one to another) that they discuss it with the their significant other first, rather than presenting a fait accompli.

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Despite the rhetoric, you don't "decide" to believe Jesus is Lord any more than you "decide" that strawberries are tasty. You have an experience that leads you to a conclusion. In fact, that's what life is made up of-- an endless string of experiences that you respond to, that shape you and your beliefs and values and interpretations of other experiences both past and future. That's true for believers and non-believers alike. [/QB]

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Originally posted by E to the i pi:

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Despite the rhetoric, you don't "decide" to believe Jesus is Lord any more than you "decide" that strawberries are tasty. You have an experience that leads you to a conclusion. In fact, that's what life is made up of-- an endless string of experiences that you respond to, that shape you and your beliefs and values and interpretations of other experiences both past and future. That's true for believers and non-believers alike.

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How about if it were instead one's sexuality, another thing people don't just decide? Should you just go "Hello darling, I'm gay/straight/bisexual"? [/QB]

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Originally posted by Jahlove:
sense of humour always helps - being the partner of a True Believer who can't rib their own beliefs is a recipe for sorrow

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But there is a difference, isn't there? The "I'm gay" conversation almost by necessity ends the marriage (although not often, in my experience, the friendship). The "I'm Christian" conversation does not need to do so, any more than a "I've decided to become an anthropologist" would.

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Again, not meaning to suggest that life for you right now is easy, or that you should just "roll with it". But it also does seem you are making it harder than it need be precisely because of some of the unnecessary baggage and assumptions you are making. [/QB]

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:
It seems a bit odd that both you and your wife would both discuss your marriage crisis on the same community board - a christian board at that, when you are an avowed atheist...

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Originally posted by E to the i pi:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:
It seems a bit odd that both you and your wife would both discuss your marriage crisis on the same community board - a christian board at that, when you are an avowed atheist...

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*shrug*. A Christian friend of my wife's started the thread. My wife told me it existed and was interested in what my view of the discussion on the subject was and whether any of it was useful. I felt that much of it fundamentally failed to understand the point of my objection (I think Mr. Martian got closest) so gave my own opinion and bookmarked the thread. I admit I haven't read anything much else on here.

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As has been said upthread, I think the notion that it is undermining the primacy of the marital relationship is probably as much as a romantic misunderstanding of marriage than it is about the nature of Christianity.

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Originally posted by E to the i pi:

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As has been said upthread, I think the notion that it is undermining the primacy of the marital relationship is probably as much as a romantic misunderstanding of marriage than it is about the nature of Christianity.

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If you'd said a different conception, I'd have agreed with you. The way you phrase it makes it sound like you assume there can only one true, externally prescribed definition of marriage. At that point I think we reach the natural barrier in communication between believers and non-believers.

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Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Thought there are many ways that people find God, because of the way that belief and understanding works, it is not necessarily possible to discuss becoming a christian beforehand.

For many people belief strikes them without giving time to think about it. Also a lot of people don't go out to find God, he finds them along the way.

You see you be angry that your wife has made a decision without consulting you, but for those who have been hit by faith the decision is made for them.

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Originally posted by E to the i pi:

quote:

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Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Thought there are many ways that people find God, because of the way that belief and understanding works, it is not necessarily possible to discuss becoming a christian beforehand.

For many people belief strikes them without giving time to think about it. Also a lot of people don't go out to find God, he finds them along the way.

You see you be angry that your wife has made a decision without consulting you, but for those who have been hit by faith the decision is made for them.

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So the argument goes that my wife's conversion was fated and she cannot influence her beliefs, but mine are down to free will and I should change them? That doesn't seem very consistent.

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I don't see anyone here expecting you to change your beliefs. Perhaps your wife hopes you will-- just as you hope she will change hers. But I don't see any expectation that you should come to faith on this thread.

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But I do think you have some control over your interpretation of events. Clearly your wife's conversion has shaken up your domestic life, changed your relationship in ways you didn't choose. You're entitled to be pissed off at that, and to express that.

At the same time, though, some of the spin you're taking on this unexpected change of events is, I think, causing you unnecessary additional pain. Yes, it will be painful for you no matter what, but I think you are making it worse by the assumptions you are making about Christianity and "Christian marriage" (again, not really any different than "non-Christian marriage") and what it means for your wife to have a "relationship with Jesus".

I'm not saying that cuz I think you're a bad guy, but rather cuz I think you're a good guy and deserve to be happy.

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Originally posted by E to the i pi:

quote:

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Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Thought there are many ways that people find God, because of the way that belief and understanding works, it is not necessarily possible to discuss becoming a christian beforehand.

For many people belief strikes them without giving time to think about it. Also a lot of people don't go out to find God, he finds them along the way.

You see you be angry that your wife has made a decision without consulting you, but for those who have been hit by faith the decision is made for them.

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So the argument goes that my wife's conversion was fated and she cannot influence her beliefs, but mine are down to free will and I should change them? That doesn't seem very consistent.

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I hadn't realised quite how culturally separated my wife and I were until this thing started.

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Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
What I was trying to say to you that when your wife changed her beliefs, it may not have been possible to consult you about in the way that you seem to have wanted.
I wasn't trying to say anything about fate, just that you were not being excluded form her decision making, in the way that you seem to be thinking.

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Originally posted by E to the i pi:
...According to her after the event, the whole decision process happened over the course of a month or more and she didn't tell me about it because "she thought I wouldn't be interested". I wouldn't like others to make that assumption of their loved ones.

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Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Nobody here is expecting you to come to faith. What we are struggling with, is to understand why no compromise seems to be possible. You can only see a future in your relationship if you wife has no faith.

Most of us know lots of couples where one partner only has a faith and their relationship survives with a bit of give and take on both sides.

Indeed on this board there are also people whose partner has a different faith from them, but they cope together.

That's the part that is hard to get a handle on, why there only black and white/either or, in the situation between you and your wife

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Originally posted by Think²:
If you committed a serious crime, and your wife knew - eg you hit a pedestrian whilst driving, paniced and fled the scene of the accident and couldn't bring yourself to go to the police - would you expect her to keep the secret out of loyalty to you and the primacy of your relationship, or would you be able to accept it if she put conscience / law first and went to the police?

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