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Source: (consider it) Thread: Marriage vs God
E to the i pi
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# 16762

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quote:
Originally posted by Think˛:
Anthropormorphic deities can be seen as a social construct that exists to codify and justify pro social behaviour. Not sure what you think the idea of a Christian God is going to get your wife to do? Or why it would suddenly take up more time than if she took up bridge as a hobby.

If my wife had seen it as that then we wouldn't have had a problem. I suspect the believer on the board would say that that isn't Christianity though.

Edit: One practical thing it would have done would have been to encourage her to bring up any children we were to have had as Christians.

[ 13. May 2012, 18:56: Message edited by: E to the i pi ]

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Doublethink.
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Well, obviously, someone who believes in God won't see it as a cultural construct - but you have the option of seeing her religion in this way. As regards kids, I would have thought that would be open to negotiation. If you want your children to grow up to think for themselves, it probably best to expose them to a range of world views and teach them critical evaluation. If you want them to become Christian adults your best bet is rigid religious instruction - because children generally rebel against their parents.

The way you post about how you have reacted to her conversion, suggests you have come across as extremely controlling and possibly quite weird. Don't know how that has impscted on your relationship - but I am guessing not well. Have you considered going to Relate?

Often ideollogical and other rows in relationships are just proxies for more underlying issues in a relationship - if you value the relationship and want to salvage it you need to,move beyond intellectual debate and address such things. Eg. In general to what extent you and your wife compromise over disagreements within your relationship. Is it always you, and thus this is the straw that broke the camel's back, or always her and now you are not coping with her being assertive, or whateve.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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E to the i pi
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quote:
Originally posted by Think˛:
Well, obviously, someone who believes in God won't see it as a cultural construct - but you have the option of seeing her religion in this way. As regards kids, I would have thought that would be open to negotiation. If you want your children to grow up to think for themselves, it probably best to expose them to a range of world views and teach them critical evaluation. If you want them to become Christian adults your best bet is rigid religious instruction - because children generally rebel against their parents.

In other words, I should lie to myself in order to continue in the relationship? That doesn't make sense to me. I think you've missed my point over children, Young children under 5 or so don't have enough capacity for rational thought to stop and think. If they see mummy doing it, they are going to think it's the right thing to do. As such I view bringing children up in a religious environment as a moderate form of child abuse.

quote:

The way you post about how you have reacted to her conversion, suggests you have come across as extremely controlling and possibly quite weird. Don't know how that has impscted on your relationship - but I am guessing not well. Have you considered going to Relate?

Be assured I see many of the views being expressed by others on this thread as quite weird. That's differing culture again. We tried going to Relate. The guy there didn't ever quite seem to get what the problem was and seemed to suggest it was possible to compromise without ever suggesting a way himself.


quote:

Often ideollogical and other rows in relationships are just proxies for more underlying issues in a relationship - if you value the relationship and want to salvage it you need to,move beyond intellectual debate and address such things. Eg. In general to what extent you and your wife compromise over disagreements within your relationship. Is it always you, and thus this is the straw that broke the camel's back, or always her and now you are not coping with her being assertive, or whateve.

I'm afraid for both me and my wife intellectual debate is central to who we are. And we're both sufficiently stubborn to stick to what we believe is right when it's important. Previously we'd just never been on opposite sides of it.

[ 13. May 2012, 19:21: Message edited by: E to the i pi ]

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Mark Betts

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No kidding, but I seriously wonder what Jeremy Kyle and his aftercare team would make of all this...

Be a Guest on the Jeremy Kyle Show
(from the webpage):
Do you have an issue you feel The Jeremy Kyle Show could help you work out?

Relationships
If you’re worried your relationship will breakdown unless things change, call Jess on 0161 952 0750 or email Jess.Parkinson@itv.com

Dont forget to leave a telephone number if you text.

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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You don't believe there is a God - so presumably you just believe it to be a social construct? Other wise you'd be saying its real [Ultra confused]

So what is it you find abusive? Incidently, how do you intend to derive a moral system for you progeny - humnism? What makes that less abusive?

I wonder from your post above if you and your wife take some pride in being stubborn, never yielding. could be you are both seeing this as test you have to win.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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E to the i pi
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quote:
Originally posted by Think˛:
You don't believe there is a God - so presumably you just believe it to be a social construct? Other wise you'd be saying its real [Ultra confused]

The reglion is a social construct. My wife's belief in the religions figureheads is real.

quote:


So what is it you find abusive? Incidently, how do you intend to derive a moral system for you progeny - humnism? What makes that less abusive?


I have a similar distaste for humanism as I do for organised religion. I don't intend to create a moral system (i.e. externally prescribed) for my children, I intend to instill an ethical one (internal, based on application of the veil of ignorance and rationality). You'll find that covers most of the big ones and is I suspect how most parents actually teach one, "you wouldn't like it if he did it to you".

quote:

I wonder from your post above if you and your wife take some pride in being stubborn, never yielding. could be you are both seeing this as test you have to win.

I think we both see this as a test we've lost [Frown]
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Doublethink.
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I realise its a tangent, but;

I don't think do as you would be done by works as fundamental rule because it is too easy to define out others as not being similar enough to matter. And it is based on a fundementally egocentric view of the world. Measuring the world by our own likes and dislikes. (Also, trying to get a child to reason like that can lead to a very Hobbesian social Darwinist position.)

Non-tangentyness - compromise is not weakness it is the stuff the social world is made of, it is something you could potentially both learn. You don't *have* to lose.

[ 13. May 2012, 19:56: Message edited by: Think˛ ]

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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E to the i pi
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quote:
Originally posted by Think˛:
I realise its a tangent, but;

I don't think do as you would be done by works as fundamental rule because it is too easy to define out others as not being similar enough to matter. And it is based on a fundementally egocentric view of the world. Measuring the world by our own likes and dislikes.

Non-tangentyness - compromise is not weakness it is the stuff the social world is made of, it is something you could potentially both learn. You don't *have* to lose.

A: I'll only say religious codes have exactly the same failing.

B: If there were a genuine compromise I would be eager to hear it. I couldn't see one, my wife couldn't see one and no-one here has suggested one. The situation may be sufficiently binary that there isn't one. It's not like she can only be a Christian when I'm not in the room.

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Doublethink.
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I would suggest focusing, at least initially on external behaviour rather than internals.

You think her belief is erroneous, but it is perfectly possible to live with someone who holds different views on something important - couples who vote differently for example.

So lets think about what bothers you about her faith;

Thus far I get - not being the most important person in her life, and the possibility of kids you don't yet have catching faith from her. At the moment you are also holding her as less important than your intellectual position - does that mean you love her less than athiesm ? Or would you see that as a question lacking meaning?

If we accept religion as a social construct (your view), she is not in love with a person - she is convinced by an idea you happen to believe is wrong. But whatever she may believe she can not have a two way relationship with the proposed being because it does not exist. Therefore, he/she/it can not make any specific demand of your wife. Therefore he/she/it can never demand she makes some kind of choice between you and faith.

So, from an atheist perspective, you are never dealing with a third party in the marriage - you are either dealing with your wife's views/conscience that she is experiencing as an external impetus, or you are dealing with her church's interpretation of scripture.

Now as you may have noticed on this site - there are almost infinitely varied ways to interpret scripture. You can debate any scriptural assertion and attempt to come to a shared view, without having to agree whether there is a God underlying it. Essentially these are many of the debates that a married couple might have about how to live their life regardless of spirituallty. How do we bring the kids up, what is the right thing to do when our friends divorce who do we stay in touch with, what are the rights and wrongs of deciding how to support our elderly parents etc.

Quite possibly where your wife needs to get to is a similar place - where well here is bible verse x is not seen as the be all and end all of a debate. And to reengage critical faculties with regard to her engagement with her new church. Plus a bit of protected not talking faith time, and negotiating about the timing and priority of religous activities.

It is doable if you both want it. But if this conversion is the end point of burnng bridges in a mariage that was already fragile. Then it may not be doable. (Or if you have been in a situation where your wife has become frightemed of you.)

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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E to the i pi
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What you describe is not, to me a compromise. Cherry picking some points You start by saying lets begin by ignoring what's important for the matters we can fix. Atheism is a principle not a figurehead, I don't love it, I live it so yes, your question lacks meaning. I don't believe that a symmetric argument can be applied to God the Father, Jesus and the rest though. These are characters, however fictional, not principles. If I called them graven images, would that give some sense of my feeling?

I suspect the bridges have been burnt to cinder. However much we love each other, this is a divide that appears to be too important to both of us.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by E to the i pi:


I suspect the bridges have been burnt to cinder. However much we love each other, this is a divide that appears to be too important to both of us.

Since you haven't commented on my suggestion, may I say it again?

My advice is to give it time. The first flush of faith will soon fade into questioning and uncertainty, I expect.

<eta 'I expect' - no point acting all certain when talking of uncertainty!>

[ 13. May 2012, 21:45: Message edited by: Boogie ]

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E to the i pi
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If my wife were to decide to come back to me on terms I could accept I would welcome her with open arms. However, her adherence to her principles are as unflinching as mine and she is used to getting her own way, I understand she's made her choice and am trying to find ways to continue on without her. Not the happiest time of my life I must admit.
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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Purgatory is a board for serious discussion of issues, not the joint airing in public of personal relationship issues.

I note the couple in question are receiving counselling, which process should be governed by certain confidentiality protections and legal protections re advice. Clearly, neither Purgatory nor any other of our discussion boards has either of these safeguards. Nor should we be seeking to cut across anything said in that process.

So please bring the specifics of that part of the discussion to an end. This ruling is not intended to curtail more general discussions about the principles and issues which apply.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

Just a reminder, folks, following the re-opening of this thread.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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savedbyhim01
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Believing in God is the most important decision a person can ever make. It is worth losing everything else. This decision will affect her entire eternity. She should count the costs first, but those costs are easily worth it.

But that doesn't mean that her marriage has to end. Another poster mentioned 1 Peter 3. A Christian wife should be loving and submissive to her husband (as long as her husband doesn't require her to sin). If she is truly following Christ, she will be treating her husband much better than before. It shouldn't take long for him to realize that this version of his wife is better.

--------------------
Matthew 28:18-20
My Inductive Bible Study Notes

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by E to the i pi:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I don't see anyone here expecting you to change your beliefs. Perhaps your wife hopes you will-- just as you hope she will change hers. But I don't see any expectation that you should come to faith on this thread.

Whereas I see lots of people expecting me to change my beliefs in the incompatibility of my personal view of a rewarding relationship and belief in the Christian deities.
What we're saying is that the assumptions that you're making about Christian beliefs, and particularly Christian beliefs about marriage, may be erroneous. They certainly appear to be. And that, perhaps, listening to what Christians actually believe rather than what you think they believe, may give you some measure of relief, as you may find your personal views-- at least re: marriage-- aren't as different from ours, and hopefully your wife's, as you assume. Whether you personally chose to worship Jesus, Thor, or nothing, is another matter altogether. We're here simply talking about beliefs & reasonable expectations re: marriage, regardless of the religious framework.


quote:
Originally posted by E to the i pi:

At the same time, though, some of the spin you're taking on this unexpected change of events is, I think, causing you unnecessary additional pain. Yes, it will be painful for you no matter what, but I think you are making it worse by the assumptions you are making about Christianity and "Christian marriage" (again, not really any different than "non-Christian marriage") and what it means for your wife to have a "relationship with Jesus".

Not different to you, perhaps. Different to me though. Different value systems, different choices. I hadn't realised quite how culturally separated my wife and I were until this thing started. Thank you for the sentiment. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Obviously Jesus, Church, God, the Bible are more important values to your wife now than they are to you, and that involves a certain element of "Christian Culture" (for better or worse-- fwiw, we mock it too) that is alien to you. And I certainly get that that causes some degree of discomfort and friction.

But can you say more about how your wife's values and choices re: marriage in particular have changed in ways that are "culturally separate" from your own, and perhaps even incompatible to yours? That's the piece I'm having a hard time seeing.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
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sorry-- had a hard time posting there, and by the time I finally got it to appear with messed up code, the edit window had closed. Hopefully you can figure it out. : (

[ 14. May 2012, 01:24: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by E to the i pi:
If my wife were to decide to come back to me on terms I could accept

iow, do what you yourself refuse to do-- change an integral, core belief to suit your fancy.


quote:
Originally posted by E to the i pi:
I understand she's made her choice

Obviously we're only seeing glimpses and tiny slices of a complex multi-faceted relationship here. But what I'm seeing looks far more like you are making the choice here, not her-- much as you are unhappy with the outcome.


quote:
Originally posted by E to the i pi:
I understand she's made her choice and am trying to find ways to continue on without her. Not the happiest time of my life I must admit.

I am-- honestly-- very sorry that is the case, and that there is so little we or anyone else can do to help you thru this pain.

I am worried for your future relationships, as it seems to me this is a pattern that is doomed to repeat itself, whether or not a hypothetical future spouse changes religions or not. Perhaps when the pain is a little less fresh, you'll be able to reflect on this somewhat, and see the choices you both made just a bit more clearer.

I found Think's posts on this page to be very relevant and thoughtful, fwiw.

[ 14. May 2012, 01:35: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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E to the i pi
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by E to the i pi:
If my wife were to decide to come back to me on terms I could accept

iow, do what you yourself refuse to do-- change an integral, core belief to suit your fancy.

I never said it was likely to come to pass.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by E to the i pi:
I understand she's made her choice

Obviously we're only seeing glimpses and tiny slices of a complex multi-faceted relationship here. But what I'm seeing looks far more like you are making the choice here, not her-- much as you are unhappy with the outcome.

In one sense neither of us have had any choice once the dominoes started (now there's something for believers in fate). In another sense we've both chosen and both believe the other has the easier choice to be able to recant and reconcile. However this is hardly an impartial audience so I don't expect anyone here to see it like that.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by E to the i pi:
I understand she's made her choice and am trying to find ways to continue on without her. Not the happiest time of my life I must admit.

I am-- honestly-- very sorry that is the case, and that there is so little we or anyone else can do to help you thru this pain.

I am worried for your future relationships, as it seems to me this is a pattern that is doomed to repeat itself, whether or not a hypothetical future spouse changes religions or not. Perhaps when the pain is a little less fresh, you'll be able to reflect on this somewhat, and see the choices you both made just a bit more clearer.

I found Think's posts on this page to be very relevant and thoughtful, fwiw.

Your worry is noted. However when, after my wife finally gets round to divorcing me and assuming I eventually get the desire to seek a new life partner, I'll know that love won't conquer all and to stick to potential partners of a similar philosophy. Hopefully my wife will soon find a nice Christian chap to give her a shoulder to cry on and take her mind off me. Alternatively she could use Jesus for this, but it would rather prove my original thesis.

The rather unromantic point of this story seems to be not to get involved with people outside one's own creed for fear of following the Romeo and Juliet story too closely. And I *know* that there's scripture supporting that view.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by E to the i pi:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I am worried for your future relationships, as it seems to me this is a pattern that is doomed to repeat itself, whether or not a hypothetical future spouse changes religions or not. Perhaps when the pain is a little less fresh, you'll be able to reflect on this somewhat, and see the choices you both made just a bit more clearer.

I found Think's posts on this page to be very relevant and thoughtful, fwiw.

Your worry is noted. However when, after my wife finally gets round to divorcing me and assuming I eventually get the desire to seek a new life partner, I'll know that love won't conquer all and to stick to potential partners of a similar philosophy. Hopefully my wife will soon find a nice Christian chap to give her a shoulder to cry on and take her mind off me. Alternatively she could use Jesus for this, but it would rather prove my original thesis.

The rather unromantic point of this story seems to be not to get involved with people outside one's own creed for fear of following the Romeo and Juliet story too closely. And I *know* that there's scripture supporting that view. [/QB]

Actually, once again, you're missing my point.

I am not worried because I think you'll have difficulty finding someone with the same religious views as you. Obviously, that's not all that hard to do. I'm worried because of the assumptions you're bringing to marriage-- your assumptions that marriage requires: 1. Being in agreement about most everything. 2. Your partner never changing. 3. Avoiding compromise.

You could marry someone who agrees with you on each and every point re: religion and never wavers from that position. But you WILL encounter problems irregardless if you don't rethink some of those basic assumptions about marriage. As was noted upthread, we have shipmates here in all sorts of "mixed marriages", including ones precisely like yours (in terms of religious convictions), but they are able to make it work-- some quite happily-- w/o pretending they believe something they don't, w/o giving up their basic core values. They make it work w/ mutual respect and compassion.

Just curious: why are you continuing to post here-- given, as you said, it's not entirely an impartial place? Is there something in you that hopes to find a workable compromise? Are you hoping to convince us of your rightness in order to win this argument with your wife? Or are you looking for a place to vent your anger at the community you believe is stealing your wife away? (any of those are OK, just wondering).

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Erroneous Monk
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quote:
Originally posted by E to the i pi:
....I'll know that love won't conquer all and to stick to potential partners of a similar philosophy....


You'll know that love won't conquer all for *you*. Lots and lots and lots of people have happy loving marriages or other long term relationships with people with completely different belief systems.

Do you think those people are better at love than you are?

--------------------
And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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Mark Betts

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Better still, why not just convert and be done with it! [Smile]

--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Better still, why not just convert and be done with it! [Smile]

Which, after all, is precisely what you're asking of your wife.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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E to the i pi
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

I am not worried because I think you'll have difficulty finding someone with the same religious views as you. Obviously, that's not all that hard to do. I'm worried because of the assumptions you're bringing to marriage-- your assumptions that marriage requires: 1. Being in agreement about most everything. 2. Your partner never changing. 3. Avoiding compromise.

You could marry someone who agrees with you on each and every point re: religion and never wavers from that position. But you WILL encounter problems irregardless if you don't rethink some of those basic assumptions about marriage. As was noted upthread, we have shipmates here in all sorts of "mixed marriages", including ones precisely like yours (in terms of religious convictions), but they are able to make it work-- some quite happily-- w/o pretending they believe something they don't, w/o giving up their basic core values. They make it work w/ mutual respect and compassion.

Just curious: why are you continuing to post here-- given, as you said, it's not entirely an impartial place? Is there something in you that hopes to find a workable compromise? Are you hoping to convince us of your rightness in order to win this argument with your wife? Or are you looking for a place to vent your anger at the community you believe is stealing your wife away? (any of those are OK, just wondering).

Actually I'd say my thesis is dual to yours. A marriage (can I say relationship instead?) is as you say based on mutual respect and my wife and I have ended up in a situation where we cannot respect each others' positions. She finds my need for the primacy of human relationships just as objectionable as I find her need for the primacy of her Messiah. This isn't something which compassion can really overcome and is pretty much impossible to compromise on without compromising one of our positions. I suppose in some sense there is only room for one fundamentalist opinion in a relationship.

As to why I've posted: a) People have kept on asking me questions, or putting words into my mouth that I haven't agreed with. b) I'd hope that others in a situation with any similarity might be interested in how I, having been through this, think a less messy resolution could be achieved.

P.S. I'm afraid irregardless isn't a word [Smile]

quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk

You'll know that love won't conquer all for *you*. Lots and lots and lots of people have happy loving marriages or other long term relationships with people with completely different belief systems.

Do you think those people are better at love than you are?


No, not at all. They just possibly have less strongly held beliefs, or at least a less incompatible set. My wife has told me there are as many forms of Christianity as there are Christians, and the same holds true for other religions and for non believers. If my wife were willing to put me first or I was able to accept our relationship being put second (both by my standards) then I could see it working.

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Better still, why not just convert and be done with it! [Smile]

Which, after all, is precisely what you're asking of your wife.
I admit, both of us converting to Thor worship would probably have fixed the problem. Alternatively, my wife has shown that her belief system is mutable, mine has shown no sign of it [Smile]
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Poptart22
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Better still, why not just convert and be done with it! [Smile]

Which, after all, is precisely what you're asking of your wife.
That makes it sound like you can just *decide* to believe something. As someone who isn't really up for forcing belief on myself, I don't understand this at all. Either you believe or you don't. If there is a God, he'll know I'm just full of it even if I say and do the right things. Don't trivialize something that huge.


quote:
Originally posted by savedbyhim01:
Believing in God is the most important decision a person can ever make. It is worth losing everything else. This decision will affect her entire eternity. She should count the costs first, but those costs are easily worth it.

But that doesn't mean that her marriage has to end. Another poster mentioned 1 Peter 3. A Christian wife should be loving and submissive to her husband (as long as her husband doesn't require her to sin). If she is truly following Christ, she will be treating her husband much better than before. It shouldn't take long for him to realize that this version of his wife is better.

OK, not every Christian things every non-Christian is going to hell (what I'm assuming you're referring to when you say it affects eternity). Even my wife says she's not too sure about after death because really we're just humans and we don't get to study the afterlife (not like we can go there and come back), which I'm sure is why her conscience allowed her to marry me when I refuse to define myself as anything at the moment. And not everyone buys into the submissive thing. The only submissive in *this* house is the kind that requires a safeword.

I am not convinced at all that I was better when I was strong in my Christian belief. I can sleep better now at least knowing I claim my current beliefs or lack thereof. My wife insists she's a better wife because of her Christianity and I believe her. I just don't think that's the only way to be the best spouse possible.

I really understand the dilemma. It's possible to have a mixed-faith marriage, but it does create some problems.

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Erroneous Monk
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quote:
Originally posted by E to the i pi:
If my wife were willing to put me first or I was able to accept our relationship being put second (both by my standards) then I could see it working.

Hmmm. What makes you think she put you first before she converted? Surely you only came second then? Unless you believe romantic love has a supernatural quality in that it trumps instinctive self-preservation?

Where's the evidence that you've actually slipped in the rankings, rather than remained where you were with first and third changing place?

--------------------
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E to the i pi
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quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by E to the i pi:
If my wife were willing to put me first or I was able to accept our relationship being put second (both by my standards) then I could see it working.

Hmmm. What makes you think she put you first before she converted? Surely you only came second then? Unless you believe romantic love has a supernatural quality in that it trumps instinctive self-preservation?

Where's the evidence that you've actually slipped in the rankings, rather than remained where you were with first and third changing place?

If people will ignore the potential innuendo, I don't think my wife "had a relationship with herself". Alternatively, are you claiming that following conversion my wife spookily put our relationship above self preservations in order not to change the league table?
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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by E to the i pi:
Actually I'd say my thesis is dual to yours. A marriage (can I say relationship instead?) is as you say based on mutual respect and my wife and I have ended up in a situation where we cannot respect each others' positions. She finds my need for the primacy of human relationships just as objectionable as I find her need for the primacy of her Messiah. This isn't something which compassion can really overcome and is pretty much impossible to compromise on without compromising one of our positions.

Again, I think you are quite wrong about that. I think it is quite possible for you to (both-- I realize this impasse is very much two-sided) accept this regrettable difference, respect one another's strongly held beliefs w/ respect and compassion w/o compromising either position. It would take work and pain, and perhaps you (or she) have, for whatever reason, determined the relationship is not worth that effort. But it is certainly possible-- the evidence is all around you, as millions of other couples manage it every day.


quote:
Originally posted by E to the i pi:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk

You'll know that love won't conquer all for *you*. Lots and lots and lots of people have happy loving marriages or other long term relationships with people with completely different belief systems.

Do you think those people are better at love than you are?


No, not at all. They just possibly have less strongly held beliefs, or at least a less incompatible set.
[/QB]

B***. Millions of couples with beliefs as strong or stronger than yours, have managed it. One of such couple (perhaps more) known to us here on the ship is a clergyman-- someone whose devotion to Christ has encompassed even his vocation/ calling. His wife is equally passionate re: her differing belief system. It can be managed. Again, not with out work & pain, but certainly possible, with sufficient love, respect and compassion. The operative word here, I suspect, is "respect" (on both sides).


quote:
Originally posted by E to the i pi:
If my wife were willing to put me first or I was able to accept our relationship being put second (both by my standards) then I could see it working.

Again, my experience shows me that this romantic expectation is unrealistic even in a marriage of two avowed atheists. For example, again, as soon as children come into the picture you will notice an immediate demotion. The sort of unrivaled attention you are demanding is just not realistic even beyond religious convictions.

The flaw seems to be in picturing love as a zero-sum game. Much like an only child believes mommy's love is a zero-sum, so when a new baby comes along, s/he feels threatened that mommy will love her less. But we all (believers and non-believers alike) have found that is not the case, that the love for someone else--whether child or deity-- does not lessen the first love.

Now attention is, of course, limited. A 2nd child will divide mommy's attention. And your wife's commitment to Christianity will, by necessity, divide her attention, so there will be less time devoted to you. But the same would be true if she took up golf, or decided to go back to school, took on a demanding job... or had a child. Part of being an adult married person is accepting that and negotiating that. Not negotiating beliefs, simply negotiating how you live out those beliefs in a way that meets each others' needs.

quote:
Originally posted by E to the i pi:

P.S. I'm afraid irregardless isn't a word [Smile]

Webster's said you would say that: I'm afraid it is.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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E to the i pi
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:


P.S. I'm afraid irregardless isn't a word [Smile]

Webster's said you would say that: I'm afraid it is.
You are, perhaps unsurprisingly, given what I suspect are our respective theological positions, quoting from a source I don't believe in.

[ 14. May 2012, 16:58: Message edited by: E to the i pi ]

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by E to the i pi:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:


P.S. I'm afraid irregardless isn't a word [Smile]

Webster's said you would say that: I'm afraid it is.
You are, perhaps unsurprisingly, given what I suspect are our respective theological positions, quoting from a source I don't believe in.
Houston, I see the problem. [Big Grin]

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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LutheranChik
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My pastor and spouse are of two differing belief systems and are comfortable navigating that territory (more comfortable, perhaps, than some of the people around them who have very black-and-white ideas about the nature of God and salvation).

I haven't read each and every post here, but I'm still trying to unpack what the "cultural differences" are, sir, that you feel are creating an irreparable tear in you and your wife's relationship. Can you give us some specific examples?

People's intimate relationships are impacted by outside forces all the time. Example: When I met my partner, her adult children (from a disastrous early 20's marriage) were both living their own lives at opposite ends of the continent and, despite the occasional visit back or forth, were something of an abstraction to me; we got along very well, and I was relieved that they liked me and had given my partner their approval of our relationship, but in a sense they were always "out there" somewhere in the wider world. In the last two years, though, their life changes -- a baby, two marriages and two acute healthcare crises -- have drawn our lives far closer together. Have I ever resented this intrusion of their lives and problems into our household? I'd be lying if I said no; I mean, there have been days when I've thought, "I really didn't think I was signing up for this." I think that's true of anyone in a life partnership. And then you have a cry or get mad or have a glass of wine, and then you pull up your grown-up pants and get over it. And I've every reason to believe that my partner has thought exactly the same of me, especially in this past year when I had a life-threatening episode and needed months to recover, effectively placing most of the burden of our household management on her. It's what the "for better, for worse" is about in marriage vows.

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E to the i pi
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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:

I haven't read each and every post here, but I'm still trying to unpack what the "cultural differences" are, sir, that you feel are creating an irreparable tear in you and your wife's relationship. Can you give us some specific examples?

The brief version is the town mouse and the country mouse. The longer version is she grew up in a small village in the Midlands, daughter of a church warden and a church-going atheist science teacher. I grew up in outer London son of confirmed unbelievers (a school inspector and a university librarian). She went to the local CoE primary school (the only school in the village) then a school with a 99% white, predominantly rural middle class intake. I had schoolfriends of all major extant religions except Buddhism (including one of the people who later ran away from their police curfew in the days following the London tube bombings. She read a humanities degree at university, I read maths.

[ 14. May 2012, 17:50: Message edited by: E to the i pi ]

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Houston, I see the problem. [Big Grin]

Absolutely.

But I have a rather different problem. Which is that this thread is still tending to focus on the specific compatibility issues of one relationship, rather than the general issues of compatibility when folks have different world views, outlook and vision.

The thread's on notice. Unless there is some significant change of focus, I'll close it.

Barnabas62
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--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Bartolomeo

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I read through this thread with interest, both because I went through a period of Ayn Rand-style atheism similar to e-i(pi) and because a sea change in my first wife's faith was the major visible factor in the marriage ending in divorce.

I think that, prior to marriage, we have an obligation to share who we think we really are with our future spouse. After marriage, I think there's an implied covenant to refrain from major lifestyle changes without some informed consent from the other spouse, or renegotiation of the ground rules of the marriage.

For example if someone were to marry a surgeon whose plans were to maintain a career in medicine and establish and follow a lifestyle consistent with a $300,000 income it would not be fair for said surgeon to decide to abandon that career in favor of a reclusive life of prayer, contemplation, and poverty.

In similar fashion, if the marriage began with the premise of an intellectual atheist and an inactive Christian respecting each others' differences, well, any significant move away from the center of that is going to be disruptive, and it isn't fair (IMO) for one spouse to make such a change unilaterally and insist that the other just accept it.

Most of us have limits as to what beliefs we would accept in a spouse. I think most Christians would be more accepting of an atheist spouse than a spouse following a nonmainstream Christian faith or a non-Christian one, e.g. Mormon, Islam, Hindu. Christianity is a repudiation of the belief system of intellectual atheism, and as such there is more conflict between these beliefs than would be the case between the beliefs of inactive and practicing Christians, or the beliefs of questioning vs. practicing Christians -- combinations we might encounter more frequently among spouses.

In these sorts of situations it is tempting to polarize the dispute with the false dichotomy between God and spouse, or between Christ and spouse, as the case may be. There are more tolerant, less overtly evangelical approaches to Christianity that emphasize "this is what I believe" rather than "this is what God says."

In like fashion there are more tolerant approaches to atheism. Those newly converted to Ayn Rand's world view are tempted to preach the foolishness of believing in a God that can't be perceived by the senses or measured in the lab with the same fervor that the born again preach Romans 5:8. There are more tolerant approaches to atheism that emphasize that moral systems can be built with intellectual foundations alone, without undermining the value of faith-based beliefs.

In my experience there are two factors for success in marriages where the beliefs of the spouses differ markedly:

1) The extent to which the beliefs set up day-to-day conflict on matters such as diet, home decor, weekends, holidays, and social networks.

2) Whether both parties are willing to compromise enough to respect each others' beliefs as valid expressions of their humanity.

--------------------
"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Better still, why not just convert and be done with it! [Smile]

Because:

a) it would lack integrity unless there was a sincere change of heart

b) opposites attract to maybe there'd be a loss of 'spark' if both were of the same faith/belief system

--------------------
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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Lyda*Rose

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Bartolomeo:
quote:
In similar fashion, if the marriage began with the premise of an intellectual atheist and an inactive Christian respecting each others' differences, well, any significant move away from the center of that is going to be disruptive, and it isn't fair (IMO) for one spouse to make such a change unilaterally and insist that the other just accept it.
What I can't understand is why someone would insist on a veto on a spouse's new beliefs or opinions. That seems unfair and frankly unlikely to work; marriage shouldn't be the thought police. I would, however, expect discussion and compromise on time spent in activities related to the change. And IMO each spouse should respect the other's opinions, refraining from both sarcasm and self-righteousness. Time spent in discussing the change should mostly be on terms the unchanged one can handle. I don't deny working through the change would likely be difficult.

Example: If someone who had previously been lukewarm came to the conclusion that there is no God, but both spouses had been previously involved in many church activities that the now unbelieving spouse doesn't want to participate in, it would be good for the marriage for the believing spouse to pull back from the less compelling church activities and carve out time for new activities they may both enjoy. And it would be well for the unbelieving spouse not to expect the Christian spouse to do a Ruth/Naomi "your lack of God will be my lack of God". [Biased] Or for the believing spouse to condescendingly consider this atheism a "phase" to be indulged 'til the wandering sheep returns to the flock.

Kindness and respect are key, at least in most disparate yet successful marriages I've known.

--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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LutheranChik
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As my Buddhist friends remind me from time to time, attachment can create suffering -- in some cases, perhaps a partner's attachment to a sort of snapshot picture of that couple that was true at the beginning of the relationship but may not be true now.

Serious illness can transform relationships between partners in a way that makes one partner feel as if something has been lost in the relationship. Retirement is another thing that can be a real stressor between couples as they renegotiate their roles in the household. Education/life experience can turn the passive, deferential partner in a relationship into someone who is more confident and independent, and that in turn can feel threatening to a partner who started out as the intellectual/experiential superior in the relationship, who now realizes that s/he's dealing with someone who has become a peer.

I think partners whose relationship is based on friendship (which, frankly, not all relationships are) are able to navigate these sorts of changes.

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Bartolomeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Bartolomeo:
quote:
In similar fashion, if the marriage began with the premise of an intellectual atheist and an inactive Christian respecting each others' differences, well, any significant move away from the center of that is going to be disruptive, and it isn't fair (IMO) for one spouse to make such a change unilaterally and insist that the other just accept it.
What I can't understand is why someone would insist on a veto on a spouse's new beliefs or opinions.
Because truly incompatible and irreconcilable beliefs do exist.

What if your spouse/partner were to conclude one day that the church is a fundamentally pagan and evil institution that should be destroyed, by force if necessary? That you and your friends, relatives, children, were all fallen and would be destroyed during the upcoming apocalypse? That holy communion is a particularly evil and personal affront to your spouse that no one in the family should ever participate in?

I put up with that for years.

And I would imagine that most card-carrying atheists married to born-again believers feel largely the same way, though the specifics differ.

Bottom line, yes, I'm going to veto my spouse's right to believe that I'm a second class citizen, not in the club of salvation, going straight to hell. It simply isn't conducive to a loving relationship between equals.

[ 14. May 2012, 21:04: Message edited by: Bartolomeo ]

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Ethne Alba
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Thing is though, people change during a marriage. We just do.

The key question is how far do we put up with change in a marriage, before one person calls time?

No easy answers.

[ 14. May 2012, 21:41: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]

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Lyda*Rose

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L*R:
quote:
What I can't understand is why someone would insist on a veto on a spouse's new beliefs or opinions. That seems unfair and frankly unlikely to work...
I sympathize, Bartolomeo; you were in a pretty untenable position. But the question is: Did your veto work? Someone who went harebrained like your spouse did is not going to sit down nicely and say, "Honey, it's occurred to me "that the church is a fundamentally pagan and evil institution that should be destroyed, by force if necessary". Before I adopt that belief, I thought I'd run it by you for approval. What do you think?"

If the belief has not solidified, you might have a chance of persuasion. But unless part of the new belief were total submission to their spouse's will, there would be no power of veto. You could stand by your beliefs, come what may, but that still would not constitute a veto of your partner's thoughts. There could be only pained acceptance, compromise (maybe), constant quarreling, a combination of the above, or a parting of ways. Or...?

No, it wasn't fair. But if someone is of the temperament to adopt extreme opinions, any reasonable prior arrangement for discussion would be dust in the wind.

--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Soror Magna
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When I first separated from my ex, he started attending an Evangelipentehostile church, and came back a couple of weeks later insisting that divorce was against God's law and we had to get back together again. I didn't buy it, but I did notice that Christianity seemed to have "grabbed" him more than anything else he'd ever been interested in. Six months later, however, he had stopped going to church, and the subject never came up again.

Like many others, I think the thread title is an artificially-created dilemma. Religion doesn't break up marriages or hold them together, people choose to do so. If a relationship gets to the "my way or the highway" stage over any issue, things are not good. OliviaG

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
... I think that, prior to marriage, we have an obligation to share who we think we really are with our future spouse. After marriage, I think there's an implied covenant to refrain from major lifestyle changes without some informed consent from the other spouse, or renegotiation of the ground rules of the marriage. ...

That sounds both very reasonable and utterly fantastical. There are lots of unintended events that can precipitate a major lifestyle change - illness or a car crash, for example. "Honey, after 30 years GM wants to lay me off with no health benefits, but they need your informed consent." As for knowing each other as who we really are, well, if we waited for that, nobody would ever get married. And what about all those arranged marriages where the spouses are introduced and may have a lot in common but only limited acquaintance?

quote:
For example if someone were to marry a surgeon whose plans were to maintain a career in medicine and establish and follow a lifestyle consistent with a $300,000 income it would not be fair for said surgeon to decide to abandon that career in favor of a reclusive life of prayer, contemplation, and poverty. ...
Again, it sounds reasonable, but it also sounds like an argument in divorce court, complaining of not being kept in the style one is accustomed to. Obviously, entering the novitiate isn't the thing to do when you're married, but that has nothing to do with the loss of income! OliviaG

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Barnabas62
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"Two becoming one" does not envisage a loss of individual identity. So far as commitments not to change are concerned, OliviaG has nailed it.

I remember a very funny bit of play-acting by Rob and Marion White (at a Spring harvest event in the 1990s), who were acting out a row.

Rob was demonstrating an indignant recall of things which Marion had said on the issue they were having a row about. After some defences along the lines of "Did I say that?", "Perhaps you misunderstood me?", "That wasn't really what I meant", Marion came out with the clincher.

"Well .. I've changed my mind!"

Hoots of laughter everywhere, followed by "Hmmmm.."

quote:
From Olivia's post:
Like many others, I think the thread title is an artificially-created dilemma. Religion doesn't break up marriages or hold them together, people choose to do so. If a relationship gets to the "my way or the highway" stage over any issue, things are not good.

I agree with that. Within marriage, each of us is entitled to have a change of heart, a change of mind, over little and large things. Commitment to a relationship, faithfulness in a relationship, cannot be conditional upon no minor or major changes of outlook and understanding. These changes may, almost certainly will, produce some strains, but they can be worked through. That's what "for better, for worse" involves, amongst other things.

[ 15. May 2012, 09:00: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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LeRoc

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I think that if someone enters a faith journey, it would be a good thing to inform their partner already in the earlier stages of it. This would reduce the surprise, as opposed to telling them only at the moment when you have already converted. This way, the journey could be made together, even if the partner doesn't believe in it.

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E to the i pi
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I agree with that. Within marriage, each of us is entitled to have a change of heart, a change of mind, over little and large things. Commitment to a relationship, faithfulness in a relationship, cannot be conditional upon no minor or major changes of outlook and understanding. These changes may, almost certainly will, produce some strains, but they can be worked through. That's what "for better, for worse" involves, amongst other things.

Doesn't that presume a universal definition of commitment and faithfulness though?
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Poptart22
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
"Two becoming one" does not envisage a loss of individual identity. So far as commitments not to change are concerned, OliviaG has nailed it.

I remember a very funny bit of play-acting by Rob and Marion White (at a Spring harvest event in the 1990s), who were acting out a row.

Rob was demonstrating an indignant recall of things which Marion had said on the issue they were having a row about. After some defences along the lines of "Did I say that?", "Perhaps you misunderstood me?", "That wasn't really what I meant", Marion came out with the clincher.

"Well .. I've changed my mind!"

Hoots of laughter everywhere, followed by "Hmmmm.."

quote:
From Olivia's post:
Like many others, I think the thread title is an artificially-created dilemma. Religion doesn't break up marriages or hold them together, people choose to do so. If a relationship gets to the "my way or the highway" stage over any issue, things are not good.

I agree with that. Within marriage, each of us is entitled to have a change of heart, a change of mind, over little and large things. Commitment to a relationship, faithfulness in a relationship, cannot be conditional upon no minor or major changes of outlook and understanding. These changes may, almost certainly will, produce some strains, but they can be worked through. That's what "for better, for worse" involves, amongst other things.
You may be entitled to it, but it isn't being loving to your spouse if you spring this on them after being involved for a while and are now very active and passionate. Beginning stages of such things need to be brought up. Otherwise the other person could feel betrayed. And I get that.

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Barnabas62
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Commenting on both responses.

@ E to the i pi. Is there a universal definition of faithfulness and commitment? Probably not. All I can say for sure is what I knew I was doing when I took my marriage vows, 44 years ago (when I was not a Christian). When I said "for better for worse", I did mean "for life, without qualifications". Knowing both that we would change and so would our life circumstances. Same applies to "forsaking all others". They are very simple, open ended promises with huge implications. With both of us coming from backgrounds of parents married for over 25 years, we'd seen from the inside what that might mean. And we'd talked about this stuff before we got married. Did we understand completely what we were promising to each other? Probably not.

@Poptart22. I never saw my marriage as a place where I was "entitled" to any expectation that my wife would not change. She had a close, but somewhat sheltered and protective upbringing. One of the things I promised her was freedom. Light and air.

To both of you. I had this quite deep understanding that real love does not insist on its own way - and this was before my conversion. That's a sword which cuts both ways of course. The process of leaning, working through the tension, the difference between eros and agape, learning how to look after, even prefer, each others' needs, is not at all easy, but I think it is the crucible for forging a good long term relationship.

Neither my wife nor I would describe ourselves as paragons of virtue in the way we came to terms with this. We made mistakes, sometimes were less loving, less considerate of one another, than we might have been. Forty four years later, we would both say that we've had the time of our lives coming to terms with what it really means to love someone else.

[ 15. May 2012, 12:43: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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E to the i pi
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Commenting on both responses.

@ E to the i pi. Is there a universal definition of faithfulness and commitment? Probably not. All I can say for sure is what I knew I was doing when I took my marriage vows, 44 years ago (when I was not a Christian). When I said "for better for worse", I did mean "for life, without qualifications". Knowing both that we would change and so would our life circumstances. Same applies to "forsaking all others". They are very simple, open ended promises with huge implications. With both of us coming from backgrounds of parents married for over 25 years, we'd seen from the inside what that might mean. And we'd talked about this stuff before we got married. Did we understand completely what we were promising to each other? Probably not.

Does that mean you had a church wedding then? Or just that your registrar chose to ape one of the CoE services rather a lot?
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LeRoc

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(Actually, I thought that Barnabas's post was wonderful.)

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Zacchaeus
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Well 44 years ago there wasn't the choice of places to get married that there are now. Weddings in church were much more the norm that they are today.
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quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Well 44 years ago there wasn't the choice of places to get married that there are now. Weddings in church were much more the norm that they are today.

I'd have thought unbelieving church weddings were much more the norm now than then, given the proportionate reduction in the number of self identifying Christians.
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