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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I find it difficult to escape the notion that if men ever were to create a new, legitimate and important men-only role or purpose in society the very first thing that would happen would be women demanding to be allowed to fill it as well.

Apart from prisons and public toilets, nothing is allowed to be men-only these days.

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I find it difficult to see this as anything but bemoaning the loss of male privilege. Perhaps the men bewailing their loss of "roles" can step up and, yes, share the work of the women in their lives, many of whom are juggling two, three or even more roles these days.

Yeah, yeah, it's really sad that feminism, post-industrialization and globalism have all conspired to eliminate traditional male "roles", but that doesn't mean there isn't anything for men to do. Oh, it's not what you like to do? And you can't do it with just your buds? Poor diddums. You can start by hauling water. OliviaG

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Originally posted by art dunce:
As the mother of a son and a daughter I'm glad that roles are disappearing. Both deserve the opportunity to define for themselves who/what they wish to be and not be forced to comply with a manufactured role based in a world view that had become obsolete.

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Originally posted by Alogon:
Isn't it interesting, then... that in the experience of stay-at-home dads, the greatest hostility they encounter is from stay-at-home moms. (Voices in the Family, March 12)

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Yes, the traditional roles for men are disappearing. So now you are faced with a challenge: allow that to define you as a mere biological footnote, and slink away to the margins to pout. Or make a new role. Find a new place, a new purpose. Define for yourselves who and what you want to be in this new era. As women have been doing for the last 100 yrs.

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I find it difficult to escape the notion that if men ever were to create a new, legitimate and important men-only role or purpose in society the very first thing that would happen would be women demanding to be allowed to fill it as well.

Apart from prisons and public toilets, nothing is allowed to be men-only these days.

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You're seriously saying you're unaware that until the past century men had created such a world and such roles for themselves? That it took hundreds of years for women to be allowed to be taken seriously enough as human beings to take part in that world at a level even beginning to approach equality? Even now in the USA and the UK, at least, women's pay has still to be on a parity with men's in some areas. You really want to go backwards to the golden era of men-only universities, professions, politics etc?

Seriously, go and visit those countries where many men enjoy the privileges you so yearn after and the women 'know their place' and keep to the kitchen, or fields, or wherever else their menfolk tell them to be. If you want to do something 'manly' and useful go to those places and do some good for the many, many people, of both sexes, who haven't a fraction of the privilege, wealth, freedom and opportunities you possess simply by being born in the 'right' country.

Believe it or not, I believe very much in affirming how much needed all people are, male and female, in all areas of life. I'm trying, at the moment, to think of specific ways of developing something practical in ministry among certain categories of men, in this area, because of the suicide rate, and the isolation of the farming community. Something that those men will feel they can relate to and will hopefully offer support to them. These problems are largely driven by rising unemployment, the recession and the loneliness of farming, as well as personal circumstances.

And believe it or not ( ) I have a lot of sympathy for any man who feels that modern life has somehow disenfranchised him from taking part in a useful and fulfilling way. Even in this day and age, are there many women, especially of the older generations, who don't know how that feels?

But OTOH, there appears to be a crisis for some men in developed nations because we - in those nations - have undergone the difficult but necessary revolution of acknowledging that women's brains and characters can, in truth, handle the activities formerly denied them for millenia.

But instead of greeting this with remorse for the wasted lives and talents the golden era of men-only was responsible for, and, more importantly, rejoicing that at last we're moving on as a more fully developed species; we have to contend with the complaints of some men who don't like to share that privilege and who because it is no longer their's alone, somehow misconstrue that as saying it can't be their's at all.

Mary and Joseph, every time I want to soften up on the old feminist thing, I only have to check out a thread like this to make me wake up and smell the coffee (brewed by the underpaid illegal immigrant maid of course, in between her duties of cleaning the kitchen floor, doing the shopping and nursing the kids, before sending the money back to the Philippines, where she had to drop out of college in order to earn money to feed her elderly parents).

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
And believe it or not ( ) I have a lot of sympathy for any man who feels that modern life has somehow disenfranchised him from taking part in a useful and fulfilling way.

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Originally posted by George Spigot:
I'm going to assume that you don't want the clock turned back to the way things were.

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If not then what are you suggesting? That officially make some jobs men only?

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I'm suggesting that we need a definition of what it means to be a man (as distinct from a woman) in modern society.

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
Well, Marvin, define it then - what does it mean to be a man in society?

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As you clearly - and I'm sure sincerely - have an idea of what it is men are trying to 'be' or 'do' that is specifically particular to them, you must have a fairly clear idea of what that specific particular is.

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Why do men need to define themselves as "distinct" from women?

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Even when men and women are absolutely equal in all other respects, women will always have motherhood as that one thing that society absolutely needs them for. For men these days there's no comparable unique role.

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Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Cliffdweller wrote

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Why do men need to define themselves as "distinct" from women?

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An interesting question - though if you want to pursue it I would suggest it is better broadened out to include women too, who certainly do it in other contexts

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Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:

It's presumably because much of the discussion here has centred around work, and male identification with being the primary breadwinner.

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Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Not always - it's just a matter of time before we get to produce full ex-utero supports systems for the first 9 months of life. Think of all the advantages - no more mother-child incompatibilities, no more delivery pain, no more time off work, far easier access for monitoring and treating the baby.

Then women will have nothing unique to offer either.

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
Well, Marvin, define it then - what does it mean to be a man in society?

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I genuinely don't know.

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As you clearly - and I'm sure sincerely - have an idea of what it is men are trying to 'be' or 'do' that is specifically particular to them, you must have a fairly clear idea of what that specific particular is.

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I don't know what the specific particular is. I just know that it feels pretty important to have one, and that not having one leads to a certain feeling of, well, uselessness.

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Even when men and women are absolutely equal in all other respects, women will always have motherhood as that one thing that society absolutely needs them for. For men these days there's no comparable unique role.

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Originally posted by George Spigot:
Alogon and Marvin. I'm going to assume that you don't want the clock turned back to the way things were. I may be wrong of course if so let me know. If not then what are you suggesting? That officially make some jobs men only?

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It's presumably because much of the discussion here has centred around work, and male identification with being the primary breadwinner.

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Originally posted by Alogon:

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Originally posted by George Spigot:
Alogon and Marvin. I'm going to assume that you don't want the clock turned back to the way things were. I may be wrong of course if so let me know. If not then what are you suggesting? That officially make some jobs men only?

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Basically, I am amazed at the deafening silence over the fact that, while we're still focused on "equal" opportunity for women, they now outnumber men in college by a ratio of 3 to 2; and admissions offices are scrambling to keep the figures from becoming even more lopsided.

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Originally posted by Alogon:
[QUOTE]
Now I'll sit back and watch the various rationalizations for this state of affairs start rolling in.

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Originally posted by art dunce:
Alogon

Plenty of jobs if you'll do the work.

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Originally posted by Alogon:
Basically, I am amazed at the deafening silence over the fact that, while we're still focused on "equal" opportunity for women, they now outnumber men in college [...]
Now I'll sit back and watch the various rationalizations for this state of affairs start rolling in.

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Originally posted by art dunce:

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It's presumably because much of the discussion here has centred around work, and male identification with being the primary breadwinner.

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Other than on television/movies etc I have no experience with this mindset. In my upbringing and my community now everyone works...

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I don't know what the specific particular is. I just know that it feels pretty important to have one, and that not having one leads to a certain feeling of, well, uselessness.

Even when men and women are absolutely equal in all other respects, women will always have motherhood as that one thing that society absolutely needs them for. For men these days there's no comparable unique role.

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'Full womb envy', eh, Marvin?

Marvin, women do not 'always have motherhood'. Can you imagine what it must be like to live in a society where one's unique sellling point is defined as having babies, and you aren't doing it? If I - and countless, countless other women like me - thought like that and accepted it, we'd be mental cases in a month.

Think like this. A man's uniqueness is in being the man that only he can be, as best he can. And it's the same for a woman to be the best she can be, as a woman, which may or may not involve reproduction.

We must set ourselves and each other free from narrow definitions which end up defining not who we really are, or are capable of being, but where we have failed to live up to a particular definition.

We need men to be teachers, clergy, politicans, lawyers, judges, soldiers, office and factory workers of integrity, judgement, wisdom, courage, humour and ability. We need men to be uncles, brothers, fathers, sons, cousins, friends and colleagues of compassion, humanity, loyalty and virtue.

You, yourself, are already a role-model for any boy who observes you. And, in an equally important way, you are a formative influence for the girl who observes you. Three of the most important and formative influences of my life were my father, my uncle and brother (and remain so). I thank God for them and who they are (were) and for the way they uniquely had of being the men they were. No-one else could have been to me, what they were and being a man, was a big and indispensable part of that.

Are men uniquely 'needed' for these things because they are better at them than women. I don't know. Just be the best man you can be, Marvin. No-one else can do that bit for you - and that's where your uniqueness really matters.

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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

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Originally posted by Anselmina:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I don't know what the specific particular is. I just know that it feels pretty important to have one, and that not having one leads to a certain feeling of, well, uselessness.

Even when men and women are absolutely equal in all other respects, women will always have motherhood as that one thing that society absolutely needs them for. For men these days there's no comparable unique role.

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'Full womb envy', eh, Marvin?

Marvin, women do not 'always have motherhood'. Can you imagine what it must be like to live in a society where one's unique sellling point is defined as having babies, and you aren't doing it? If I - and countless, countless other women like me - thought like that and accepted it, we'd be mental cases in a month.

Think like this. A man's uniqueness is in being the man that only he can be, as best he can. And it's the same for a woman to be the best she can be, as a woman, which may or may not involve reproduction.

We must set ourselves and each other free from narrow definitions which end up defining not who we really are, or are capable of being, but where we have failed to live up to a particular definition.

We need men to be teachers, clergy, politicans, lawyers, judges, soldiers, office and factory workers of integrity, judgement, wisdom, courage, humour and ability. We need men to be uncles, brothers, fathers, sons, cousins, friends and colleagues of compassion, humanity, loyalty and virtue.

You, yourself, are already a role-model for any boy who observes you. And, in an equally important way, you are a formative influence for the girl who observes you. Three of the most important and formative influences of my life were my father, my uncle and brother (and remain so). I thank God for them and who they are (were) and for the way they uniquely had of being the men they were. No-one else could have been to me, what they were and being a man, was a big and indispensable part of that.

Are men uniquely 'needed' for these things because they are better at them than women. I don't know. Just be the best man you can be, Marvin. No-one else can do that bit for you - and that's where your uniqueness really matters.

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this says it all.


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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Originally posted by OliviaG:

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Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Not always - it's just a matter of time before we get to produce full ex-utero supports systems for the first 9 months of life. Think of all the advantages - no more mother-child incompatibilities, no more delivery pain, no more time off work, far easier access for monitoring and treating the baby.

Then women will have nothing unique to offer either.

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In theory a good idea, in practice probably incredibly difficult, and unlikely to be economically viable when there are millions of desperately impoverished girls and women in the world. Remember wet-nurses? Today we have lots of nannies and yes, surrogate mothers. Contracting out the icky bits of parenthood has always been one of the perks of wealth. OliviaG

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Originally posted by ken:

Teenage girls do better at exams because they are actually clever than boys of the same age because they develop faster. A fourteen-year-old girl is on average the equal of a sixteen-year-old boy. As you can see walking down any street at the time school comes out. The men catch up by the early twenties but by then most exams are past.

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

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Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Cliffdweller wrote

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Why do men need to define themselves as "distinct" from women?

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An interesting question - though if you want to pursue it I would suggest it is better broadened out to include women too, who certainly do it in other contexts

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Really? Can you say more? I can't really think of a time when women have asked the question being asked here-- "who am I to the exclusion of men>?" Perhaps that's due to our biological distinctive as child-bearers. otoh, perhaps it's due to the long experience of learning to read "men" and "he" as including us. Perhaps when you have to negotiate and struggle t receive equal ground, having exclusive ground is not a priority.

What are the contexts you were thinking of where women are asking this sort of question?

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Originally posted by comet:
I don't think men are "useless" by a long shot. (especially when I need my roof shoveled or my car fixed!)

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Originally posted by comet
However, I do think than in many cultures men have been disenfranchised. Here, only a few generations back, men hunted and provided all the protein for a family. Now, that comes from a store. Men cut down the wood for heat; now, that comes from a thermostatically controlled heater that is fueled from a tank that someone autofills. men protected their family and village from raids that are now illegal and the cops enforce this peace. men built boats; now they can buy them.

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Originally posted by Moo:
This fascinates me because it echoes what Dorothy Sayers said about the role of women. In the Middle Ages a wife had about the same degree of responsibility as her husband. If she were married to the lord of the castle, she was responsible for arranging and supervising the preparation of food, the making of clothing and everything else involving textiles (starting with the fleece or flax), the making of candles and all other necessary domestic items.

Gradually many of these jobs were removed from the home. Women were still responsible for cooking, but they bought the food they cooked. They still made clothing, but they bought the fabric. There was far less work involved, but also far less responsibility and the satisfaction of meeting responsibility. Work outside the home was more interesting.

What comet said makes me think that men are now experiencing what women did a few centuries ago. I don't blame them for being uncomfortable with the situation.

Moo

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Originally posted by Twilight:

In the western world the government has taken over the role of providing the most basic financial support for many of those babies.

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I earn somewhere between a half and a tenth of what my wife earns, depending on when I get paid.

Meh. It's household income. Why should either of us worry?

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Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Just to add another opinion: "What if women don't need guys any longer?"

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Originally posted by rolyn:
I may be speaking out of turn here being a bloke, yet I happen to think most women still retain a deep emotional need to have a man around.

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Question is can your average male learn to bend his ego nearly 180 degrees so as to be completely happy living in the shade of a highly successful woman ? [/QB]

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Originally posted by rolyn:
Question is can your average male learn to bend his ego nearly 180 degrees so as to be completely happy living in the shade of a highly successful woman ?

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
As long as they think of it as shade, no.

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Originally posted by rolyn:
I may be speaking out of turn here being a bloke, yet I happen to think most women still retain a deep emotional need to have a man around.

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Question is can your average male learn to bend his ego nearly 180 degrees so as to be completely happy living in the shade of a highly successful woman ?

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If a man considers his partner's success "shade", he doesn't deserve her/him. OliviaG

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"