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Source: (consider it) Thread: Shot for being suspiciously black
romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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Story goes that he lost him and returned to his vehicle, at which point the "pursuit" was over.

--------------------
"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
jbohn
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# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Nothing so far negates if he had not followed, nothing would have happened.

Legally speaking- this is a red herring. Following someone and/or asking what they're doing is not illegal. Assaulting someone who asks what you are doing is.

Morally- that's quite possibly a different matter. Practically? Stupid move to make any attempt to confront.

--------------------
We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Nothing so far negates if he had not followed, nothing would have happened.

Legally speaking- this is a red herring. Following someone and/or asking what they're doing is not illegal. Assaulting someone who asks what you are doing is.
Not necessarily in Florida. At least as written the "Stand Your Ground" law doesn't have a Whites Only clause. A teenager on foot being stalked by an unknown adult after dark has a pretty good argument for self-defense under its standards.

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

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jbohn
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# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Nothing so far negates if he had not followed, nothing would have happened.

Legally speaking- this is a red herring. Following someone and/or asking what they're doing is not illegal. Assaulting someone who asks what you are doing is.
Not necessarily in Florida. At least as written the "Stand Your Ground" law doesn't have a Whites Only clause. A teenager on foot being stalked by an unknown adult after dark has a pretty good argument for self-defense under its standards.
It's possible, I suppose- although without knowing exactly what happened, it's hard to say. If the guy simply asks "What are you doing here?", convincing a jury one feared for one's life is not terribly likely. If he did it with a weapon in hand, or was physically attacking, that would be considerably easier, I would think.

Of course, we don't know, and likely never will. But I've got a feeling Mr. Zimmerman has a much better chance of walking free, what with the injury report.

--------------------
We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

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Jonathan Strange
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# 11001

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Story goes that he lost him and returned to his vehicle, at which point the "pursuit" was over.

And they all lived happily ever after.

Which universe do you live in?

--------------------
"Wrong will be right, when Aslan comes in sight,
At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more,
When he bears his teeth, winter meets its death,
When he shakes his mane, we shall have spring again"

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Lots of people with legal qualifications can't write particularly well. More news at 11.

Oi! I resemble that remark. Anyway, theirs a hole wurld of diffrunce beetwen bad handriting and bad speling

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Story goes that he lost him and returned to his vehicle, at which point the "pursuit" was over.

And they all lived happily ever after.

Which universe do you live in?

That's a sad thing now, isn't it? No matter the outcome, there'll be no happy ending to this story.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Story goes that he lost him and returned to his vehicle, at which point the "pursuit" was over.

And they all lived happily ever after.

Which universe do you live in?

If Z gave up (for whatever reason -- lost M, or decided he really should just wait for the cops, or any other reason) and headed back to his vehicle, and then was attacked by M, isn't that a different "universe" than if Z pursued and attacked M?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Jonathan Strange
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# 11001

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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Story goes that he lost him and returned to his vehicle, at which point the "pursuit" was over.

And they all lived happily ever after.

Which universe do you live in?

If Z gave up (for whatever reason -- lost M, or decided he really should just wait for the cops, or any other reason) and headed back to his vehicle, and then was attacked by M, isn't tht a different "universe" than if Z pursued and attacked M?
Yes, it would be an imaginary and fact-free unreality where racist invent lies to reinforce their prejudice & hate.

Where did you hear that story, romanlion. As thy say on Wikipedia, citation needed

--------------------
"Wrong will be right, when Aslan comes in sight,
At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more,
When he bears his teeth, winter meets its death,
When he shakes his mane, we shall have spring again"

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tclune
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# 7959

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quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Story goes that he lost him and returned to his vehicle, at which point the "pursuit" was over.

And they all lived happily ever after.

Which universe do you live in?

If Z gave up (for whatever reason -- lost M, or decided he really should just wait for the cops, or any other reason) and headed back to his vehicle, and then was attacked by M, isn't tht a different "universe" than if Z pursued and attacked M?
Yes, it would be an imaginary and fact-free unreality where racist invent lies to reinforce their prejudice & hate.

Where did you hear that story, romanlion. As thy say on Wikipedia, citation needed

No, a jury is needed to sift through the facts and assertions in this case and then render a verdict to the best of their ability. It is far from clear that romanlion's prejudices are any less fact-based than are your own on this. Why not just let the system run its course?

--Tom Clune

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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jonathan Strange
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# 11001

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Actually my prejudice in this case is that a dead victim of a shooting should have the same presumption of innocence as the shooter. Bring on the trial.

--------------------
"Wrong will be right, when Aslan comes in sight,
At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more,
When he bears his teeth, winter meets its death,
When he shakes his mane, we shall have spring again"

Posts: 1327 | From: Wessex | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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But really, even though he was advised against following, and it's certainly true that if he hadn't followed Trayvon, no one would have been hurt -- I don't see how any of that is going to matter much in the trial.

If I went out after the police had advised everyone to stay inside and someone beat me up, it would be true that if I had stayed home nothing would have happened, but that doesn't excuse the person who assaulted me.

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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379

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quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Story goes that he lost him and returned to his vehicle, at which point the "pursuit" was over.

Which universe do you live in?
If Z gave up (for whatever reason -- lost M, or decided he really should just wait for the cops, or any other reason) and headed back to his vehicle, and then was attacked by M, isn't tht a different "universe" than if Z pursued and attacked M?
Yes, it would be an imaginary and fact-free unreality where racist invent lies to reinforce their prejudice & hate.
The point is, we don't know all the facts. First some were insisting Z had no injuries, now they are reporting Z suffered a broken nose black eyes & lacerations on the back of his head; first they were saying M was clean living now they say he had marijuana in his bloodstream; conflicting eyewitness reports are COMMON even if everyone is the same race; today I read that the recording of someone screaming for help was - in M's father's opinion, not M, but that M's father has since changed his mind.

The official "facts" keep changing.

We are getting incomplete facts, and obviously sometimes inaccurate "facts" since details keep changing, like initially the pics of M suggesting the dead man was a half-grown child!

No matter what happened between the two men, we sure don't know if there was racial bias one or the other direction. Just because one person is black, one non-black, and something negative happens between them, is racial bias automatically involved? Can't be two human beings have a run-in for reasons that have little or nothing to do with race?

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
No matter what happened between the two men, we sure don't know if there was racial bias one or the other direction. Just because one person is black, one non-black, and something negative happens between them, is racial bias automatically involved? Can't be two human beings have a run-in for reasons that have little or nothing to do with race?

Sadly, even that question depends on disputed facts about what was said on the 911 call. Was a racial remark used or not.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Jonathan Strange
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# 11001

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My reference to racism was not about Z or M but about commentators of romanlion's ilk who chuck out little insinuations with no basis in fact... Why? To take the focus off the two indisputable facts: the police told Z not to follow and soon afterwards Z shot M.

--------------------
"Wrong will be right, when Aslan comes in sight,
At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more,
When he bears his teeth, winter meets its death,
When he shakes his mane, we shall have spring again"

Posts: 1327 | From: Wessex | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Jonathan Strange
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# 11001

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If romanlion would cite the source for the story he heard, I'd be very interested. If he can't, he'll earn himself a hell call.

--------------------
"Wrong will be right, when Aslan comes in sight,
At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more,
When he bears his teeth, winter meets its death,
When he shakes his mane, we shall have spring again"

Posts: 1327 | From: Wessex | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
No matter what happened between the two men, we sure don't know if there was racial bias one or the other direction. Just because one person is black, one non-black, and something negative happens between them, is racial bias automatically involved? Can't be two human beings have a run-in for reasons that have little or nothing to do with race?

Sadly, even that question depends on disputed facts about what was said on the 911 call. Was a racial remark used or not.
The FBI doesn't believe there was one used.

--------------------
"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
If romanlion would cite the source for the story he heard, I'd be very interested. If he can't, he'll earn himself a hell call.

Zimmerman's statement to police was that he had lost Martin and was returning to his vehicle.

It is now clear that Zimmerman had the crap beaten out of him, photos and all.

It is also clear that Martin damaged his knuckles on Zimmerman's head, and was shot at close range.

Bring on the trial is right.

--------------------
"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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jbohn
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# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
To take the focus off the two indisputable facts: the police told Z not to follow and soon afterwards Z shot M.

Which are all well and good, but have squat-all-nothing to do with whether Mr. Zimmerman is guilty of murder or simply defended himself against someone who attacked him in a place he had a legal right to be- what matters is what happened between those two points.

Upon further thought, I wonder if part of the issue here isn't a pond difference- would a person in the UK be legally bound to follow a dispatcher's instruction to not follow someone? In the U.S., no such obligation exists.

--------------------
We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

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mdijon
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# 8520

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I think it depends on the context.

"I'd advise you to stay indoors" as a 3rd party to a disturbance outside is one thing, "I'd advise you to leave x alone" when one is a potential protagonist in a disturbance of the peace is another.

It's clearly not illegal in itself, but I think it makes you more vulnerable to blame if an altercation results.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
My reference to racism was not about Z or M but about commentators of romanlion's ilk who chuck out little insinuations with no basis in fact... Why? To take the focus off the two indisputable facts: the police told Z not to follow and soon afterwards Z shot M.

Most recent article I read said Z called 911, was told "we don't need you to follow him," within seconds Z followed instructions and turned and headed back towards his vehicle, and then was attacked by M.

I have no idea what series of events happened in which order but your two facts may be far from the only relevant facts.

As to race based reporting, yes there's been a lot of that, starting within using the several years outdated photo of a half grown M instead of the easily available current picture. Initial claims Z wasn't arrested, then video of him being brought into the station in handcuffs. Initial claims Z had no injuries, then photos of head injuries.

Yes there's been biased reporting -- what now looks like effort by some to make whatever happened look falsely as if Z did an unprovoked assault on a mere child. From the initial reports I was sure Z was a monster, who would shoot a half-grown child? Now with so many of the initial "facts" contradicted by photographic proofs, I'm thinking the press has, by accident or design or by being manipulated, created a racial mess where there wasn't one; and whether guilty or innocent of any malice towards anyone, Z will not live long.

[ 21. May 2012, 16:43: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]

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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959

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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Now with so many of the initial "facts" contradicted by photographic proofs, I'm thinking the press has, by accident or design or by being manipulated, created a racial mess where there wasn't one...

Well, that would be nice to think, but it strikes me as revisionist in the extreme. The plain fact is that the shooting received only the most cursory of investigations at the time. The hue and cry that followed -- weeks later -- was because there was no willingness to investigate the shooting of the young man. It strains my credulity to believe that any of that would have been true had the youth been a middle-class white boy.

I think that the incident is being handled with due diligence now, but to suggest that the demand for an investigation was the thing that was race-baiting is just bizarre. Or so ISTM.

--Tom Clune

[ 21. May 2012, 17:28: Message edited by: tclune ]

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This space left blank intentionally.

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:

Upon further thought, I wonder if part of the issue here isn't a pond difference- would a person in the UK be legally bound to follow a dispatcher's instruction to not follow someone? In the U.S., no such obligation exists.

No, but we have a reasonable force definition - shooting someone would not be considered a reasonable use of force in response to being punched. (Anyway, carrying *anything* with the intention of using it as a weapon is illegal in a public space.)

Famously, a Norfolk farmer who shot a teenage burglar with a shotgun - who was in his house in the process of a burglary - was convicted of murder. Received a mandatory life sentence with a low tariff - think he served 4 years.

Zimmerman would have been arrested and remanded immediately in the UK - probably by an armed response team.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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jbohn
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# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:

I think that the incident is being handled with due diligence now, but to suggest that the demand for an investigation was the thing that was race-baiting is just bizarre. Or so ISTM.

--Tom Clune

I'm not sure if Belle Ringer is saying that the demand for an investigation was simply race-baiting, or that the media coverage has been.

From my perspective, there's been quite a bit of race-baiting in the media coverage, such as: referring to Mr. Zimmeman as "white" (in order to paint him as some sort of Southern racist- never mind that he's Hispanic); showing only pictures of Mr. Martin as a boy of 11 or 12, not the considerably larger (and meaner-looking) photos of him as a teenager that were readily available; failure to report (until much later) on Mr. Martin's history of drug use, etc.

Whether or not that carries over to the calls for an investigation is something else entirely. I'll admit to some bias here- any time I see Al Sharpton involved in a situation like this, I tend to assume he's there to play the race card, whether it's useful or not. Call it past actions tending to predict future ones, if you like. I'm not sure if the initial calls for investigation were tinged by race-baiting, but I'm convinced that became a feature relatively early on- pretty much as soon as the media began to run with the story.

[ 21. May 2012, 18:10: Message edited by: jbohn ]

--------------------
We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

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jbohn
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# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
No, but we have a reasonable force definition - shooting someone would not be considered a reasonable use of force in response to being punched.

We do as well; whether or not shooting would be considered a reasonable use of force would depend on the totality of the circumstances- size/age difference between people, medical condition of the person being attacked (for some folks, a punch can be fatal), etc.

quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Zimmerman would have been arrested and remanded immediately in the UK - probably by an armed response team.

Another pond difference- in the U.S., we call those "cops". [Biased]

--------------------
We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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I don't really see how Martin using hash helps Zimmermans case, people who are stoned are generally less aggressive - its alcohol that tends to get people fighting mad.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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jbohn
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# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
I don't really see how Martin using hash helps Zimmermans case, people who are stoned are generally less aggressive - its alcohol that tends to get people fighting mad.

I'm not sure it "helps Zimmerman's case"; however, the failure to mention it, combined with the pictures used, etc., tends to look as if the media are purposefully painting a picture of "this evil racist shot an innocent CHILD!!1!!"

Unfortunately a lot of people (including some of our esteemed Shipmates) have bought into this (obviously biased and flawed) narrative.

--------------------
We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

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mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
the failure to mention it

What failure to mention it? I knew about it from my cursory reading of the press coverage.

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
No, but we have a reasonable force definition - shooting someone would not be considered a reasonable use of force in response to being punched.

We do as well; whether or not shooting would be considered a reasonable use of force would depend on the totality of the circumstances- size/age difference between people, medical condition of the person being attacked (for some folks, a punch can be fatal), etc.

quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Zimmerman would have been arrested and remanded immediately in the UK - probably by an armed response team.

Another pond difference- in the U.S., we call those "cops". [Biased]

There'd still be no chance, I think, of arguing pistol against an unarmed man in the UK- unless the assailant turned out to be ex-SAS.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
jbohn
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# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
the failure to mention it

What failure to mention it? I knew about it from my cursory reading of the press coverage.
In current coverage, yes. At first (or even considerably later), nothing of the sort.

--------------------
We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:


From my perspective, there's been quite a bit of race-baiting in the media coverage, such as: referring to Mr. Zimmeman as "white" (in order to paint him as some sort of Southern racist- never mind that he's Hispanic)

Some notes: Hispanics can be anything from pale, blonde and blue-eyed to nearly unmixed African ancestory. This is true in Peru.

Racism is not the exclusive purview of white people. Many Latin cultures have a heritage of racism, especially towards black people.

Racism is not necessarily an either/or proposition. In other words, it is a sliding scale between total racism and complete lack, not an a/b switch.

Whether Mr. Zimmerman profiled Mr. Martin may never be clear. That race played a part in how the initial investigation preceded, I have little doubt.

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Jonathan Strange
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quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
To take the focus off the two indisputable facts: the police told Z not to follow and soon afterwards Z shot M.

Which are all well and good, but have squat-all-nothing to do with whether Mr. Zimmerman is guilty of murder
I'm actually more interested in defending Martin's presumption of innocence. I don't see it in the posting here.

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jbohn:No, but we have a reasonable force definition - shooting someone would not be considered a reasonable use of force in response to being punched.

One eyewitness reported that Trayvon was sitting on top of Zimmerman and repeatedly banging his head against the pavement.

One detail that supports this story is that Trayvon was shot at such close range that there were powder burns on him.

Moo

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
To take the focus off the two indisputable facts: the police told Z not to follow and soon afterwards Z shot M.

Which are all well and good, but have squat-all-nothing to do with whether Mr. Zimmerman is guilty of murder
I'm actually more interested in defending Martin's presumption of innocence. I don't see it in the posting here.
Martin isn't being charged with a crime and he's not on trial. Zimmerman is being charged with a crime. He's considered innocent until proven guilty. Zimmerman's story justifies his use of deadly force in self defense and is not contradicted by the facts as we know them. The prosecution has to be prove beyond a reasonable doubt that George Zimmerman committed a crime.

Following Martin wasn't a crime. Think about how hard it would be to make following somebody illegal. Disregarding the rather vague instructions of the 911 dispatcher wasn't a crime. Disobeying a 911 dispatcher isn't a crime for a number of reason not the least of which is to protect city and state governments from lawsuits. Asking Martin a question wasn't a crime. Carrying a gun wasn't a crime because Zimmerman had a permit.

Shooting Martin would be a crime unless it was justified. Zimmerman's injuries support his claim to be acting in self defense. Was Martin acting in self defense? Maybe. However, I haven't read anything suggesting the prosecution can prove Zimmerman attacked Martin. Best the prosecution has is the testimony of the girlfriend who wasn't there. Her testimony might not even be admitted into evidence. Could Zimmerman have shot Martin after Martin stopped beating him? Possibly. Prosecution has a better chance of proving that. However, the prosecution expert witnesses will have to testify Zimmerman's gun wasn't fired at close range and it was Martin's voice calling for help.

Had Martin attacked Zimmerman and survived, Martin would be on trial. His lawyer could then argue that he acted in self-defense. The court would presume him to be innocent until the prosecution proved him to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

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Doublethink.
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jbohn:No, but we have a reasonable force definition - shooting someone would not be considered a reasonable use of force in response to being punched.

One eyewitness reported that Trayvon was sitting on top of Zimmerman and repeatedly banging his head against the pavement.

One detail that supports this story is that Trayvon was shot at such close range that there were powder burns on him.

Moo

He was sitting on top of him, but he couldn't shoot at point blank range anywhere other than his chest, like say his leg, arm, shoulder? Really?

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Moo

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Here is a report on the evidence.

Moo

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
He was sitting on top of him, but he couldn't shoot at point blank range anywhere other than his chest, like say his leg, arm, shoulder? Really?

My gun safety instructor friends (I live in Texas, most of my friends own a gun and are surprised I don't, all have taken safety training) say only in movies and in fancy entertainment stage shows does anyone claim it's possible to aim at a narrow fast-moving part like an arm or leg and expect to hit it.

At close range against someone big and strong they say you get one chance and it had better count or he's got your gun and you are dead.


Yes the press (or whoever was feeding info to the press) are the ones who seem to me to have intentionally mislead people about what went on, especially using a photo of a child to depict the dead full grown male. At this point we'll never really know who did what why. One man dead, another in hiding, two families disrupted, and millions of people who think they "know" what happened between the two men based on incomplete and apparently distorted (since they disagree with each other) press reports. Tragic all around.

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
originally posted by Think²:
He was sitting on top of him, but he couldn't shoot at point blank range anywhere other than his chest, like say his leg, arm, shoulder? Really?

Assuming Martin was sitting on top of Zimmerman and either punching him or banging his head against the ground, Zimmerman couldn't have done much aiming. Zimmerman's defense hinges on the claim he killed Martin because he believed his life was in danger. Even if Zimmerman could have aimed, why take the risk that he would miss if he believed Martin was trying to kill him?

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Gramps49
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A couple of things to point out: Florida has a "Stand your ground" law. A stand-your-ground law states that a person may use force in self-defense when there is reasonable belief of a threat, without an obligation to retreat first. In some cases, a person may use deadly force in public areas without a duty to retreat. Under these legal concepts, a person is justified in using deadly force in certain situations and the "stand your ground" law would be a defense or immunity to criminal charges and civil suit. The difference between immunity and a defense is that an immunity bars suit, charges, detention and arrest. A defense, such as an affirmative defense, permits a plaintiff or the state to seek civil damages or a criminal conviction but may offer mitigating circumstances that justifies the accused's conduct.

Zimmerman's lawyers will have a hearing as to whether he can claim immunity. If this is not granted, it still can be used as a defense in follow on trial.

On the other hand, there is a question of who was threatening whom at first. I think Martin's girl friend's account indicates he felt threatened by Zimmerman. Martin told his girl friend that he was being followed by a crazy and creepy man. The girl friend said she could tell he was scared.

Could it be that Martin's actions were in line with the stand your ground statute? He felt threatened. He tried to evade. Zimmerman lost him, but then started following him again. Apparently Martin and Zimmerman had some words. The girl friend reports that Martin demanded to know why Zimmerman was following him. Zimmerman demanded to know what Martin was doing there. Martin then tells Zimmerman to stay away from him.

I am thinking the prosecution is looking at the incident from this perspective--It was Zimmerman's actions that were threatening Martin. Martin was acting in self defense, and ended up getting killed for it.

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orfeo

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I haven't this through fully, but my instinct is that it may well be possible for BOTH parties in an altercation to be able to invoke self-defence or this 'stand your ground' rule.

I'm certainly aware from cases closer to home that it's a fallacy to think that someone or other MUST have committed a crime.

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Beeswax Altar
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Let's assume that by looking at and following Trayvon Martin that George Zimmerman provoked Martin into using force (and I don't think that's a given). If Zimmerman believed his life was in danger, he was justified in using deadly force even if he originally was the aggressor and provoked Martin.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Let's assume that by looking at and following Trayvon Martin that George Zimmerman provoked Martin into using force (and I don't think that's a given). If Zimmerman believed his life was in danger, he was justified in using deadly force even if he originally was the aggressor and provoked Martin.

It is therefore legal to kill anyone you want, as long as you can provoke them into using force against you.

THAT.

IS.

FUCKED.

UP.

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orfeo

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^ Will have to go look at the Florida law again actually, because in the back of my mind I thought it had something to avoid it being used if you were the person who started things. But it's been too long since I sat down and read it.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
If Zimmerman believed his life was in danger, he was justified in using deadly force even if he originally was the aggressor and provoked Martin.

I think one would have to probe how reasonable the belief that his life was in danger was, and also the nature of the provocation. Provocation can be anything from accidental and unfortunate to malicious and planned. And anything in between.

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Beeswax Altar
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Assuming that George Zimmerman was the aggressor and provoked Trayvon Martin into using force, Zimmerman still had a right to defend himself if he reasonably believed his life was in danger. Martin didn't just knock Zimmerman down. He got on top of him, punched him, and banged his head against the ground. Killing a person with your bare hands isn't all that hard. Even in Mixed Martial Arts, the referee stops the fight when a fighter gets their opponent in the same position Martin had Zimmerman.

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Killing a person with your bare hands isn't all that hard.

I remember a story of two schoolboys in New Hampshire having a fistfight which resulted in the death of one. One of the combatants had turned his head very far to the left; when he was punched behind the right ear, an artery ruptured. If his head hadn't been so sharply turned, the artery would have been more flexible.

Moo

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Martin didn't just knock Zimmerman down. He got on top of him, punched him, and banged his head against the ground.

Conjecture at the moment, but plausible. I've never been around guns much but it seems to me that pulling one out and shouting "back off or I'll shoot" would be effective.

But anyway I can see that there are some scenarios where one could see the use of deadly force being more justified than others.

The level of threat, as we are discussing, is one parameter to consider, the nature of the provocation that started it off is another. Deliberately goading and gratuitously following someone looking scared would be one thing, asking a simple question and getting a physically threatening response would be another.

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jbohn
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
]Some notes: Hispanics can be anything from pale, blonde and blue-eyed to nearly unmixed African ancestory. This is true in Peru.

Racism is not the exclusive purview of white people. Many Latin cultures have a heritage of racism, especially towards black people.

Racism is not necessarily an either/or proposition. In other words, it is a sliding scale between total racism and complete lack, not an a/b switch.

Well, yeah- all of these are rather obvious- Hispanics in the U.S. run the gamut in terms of physical description, as well. The point is that Mr. Zimmerman's ethnicity was a well-known fact which the media chose to ignore, as it wouldn't play into the "this pistol-packin' southern redneck shot that poor black kid" narrative.

They also ignored his other actions in the community, such as:

quote:
According to his family, some of Zimmerman's relatives are black.[5] Zimmerman's former lawyer Craig Sonner stated that Zimmerman is not a racist, and that he had mentored black youths in the past.[217] Joe Oliver, a former television news reporter who is acquainted with Zimmerman,[218] noted "I'm a black male and all that I know is that George has never given me any reason whatsoever to believe he has anything against people of color."[219]
An anonymous letter to the NAACP, signed "A Concerned Zimmerman Family Member", said that Zimmerman was one of the few that stepped up to take any action to protest the 2010 beating of a black homeless man by the son of a Sanford police officer. Zimmerman reportedly distributed flyers in the black community trying to get others to step up too, and helped organize a city hall meeting to protest the incident.[220] Zimmerman's reported efforts on behalf of the black homeless man were confirmed by Zimmerman's father.[221]

Wikipedia link

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Belle Ringer
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Possible that M saw Z reach into his pocket and pull something out, thought it was a gun (but it was a cell phone -- the police make that mistake sometimes, think their life is in danger because "he's got a gun in his hand" when he had only a cell phone) -- M feels in danger for his life due to what looks to him like an unprovoked deadly attack and defends self by attacking in response -- Z wasn't threatening M's life but now Z is in fear for his life due to the defensive deadly attack and defends self by shooting.

Sure one can argue Z following M, or asking him a question, or even being in the same part of the grounds, was "provocation" but not the kind that justifies deadly attack in defense. It's a quite stretch to claim asking someone "what are you doing here" is a life-theatening provocation, I've been asked that on occasion and never felt threatened. I respond "I live (or am visiting) around the corner." They say "Oh" and either go away or watch me a bit from a distance. No conflict, just alert neighbors, the kind you want, people who notice something different, notice a stranger, let the stranger know he's been noticed and if his game is breakins he's likely to leave, go find a different neighborhood to prowl.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Sure one can argue Z following M, or asking him a question, or even being in the same part of the grounds, was "provocation" but not the kind that justifies deadly attack in defense.

The deadly attack was the other way round.

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
It's a quite stretch to claim asking someone "what are you doing here" is a life-theatening provocation

Whatever the provocation was (we don't know what exactly it was), and if Martin considered it to be life-threatening (we don't know what he thought), then in retrospect it appears he was right.

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