Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by OliviaG:
These folks don't need Neighbourhood Watch, they need to be a neighbourhood. OliviaG

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[ 23. March 2012, 01:41: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:

As to all the protests and petitions and demands for the arrest of Zimmerman I don't believe in policing by popular opinion any more than I believe in shoddy police work. Let the Law officials do their jobs - they are now well aware there is additional evidence and missed evidence in this case, not to mention the Feds are now looking over their shoulders.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
The entire police department should be locked in stocks outdoors in the rain for 72 hours and forced to watch a continual loop of In the heat of the night...

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
Florida has a very extensive "stand your ground" law, which basically allows shootings like this if the shooter had "reasonable fears" for their personal safety. The Florida courts have been particularly gratuitous in accepting fears as reasonable, at least in the case of certain complexion of victim. And, of course, the police have a lot of discretion in making such determinations as well, insofar as they're the ones making the call about whether charges are warranted in the first place.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:
As to all the protests and petitions and demands for the arrest of Zimmerman I don't believe in policing by popular opinion any more than I believe in shoddy police work. Let the Law officials do their jobs - they are now well aware there is additional evidence and missed evidence in this case, not to mention the Feds are now looking over their shoulders.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:
As to all the protests and petitions and demands for the arrest of Zimmerman I don't believe in policing by popular opinion any more than I believe in shoddy police work. Let the Law officials do their jobs - they are now well aware there is additional evidence and missed evidence in this case, not to mention the Feds are now looking over their shoulders.

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It seems to me that they were well aware of additional evidence before the protests. The only difference is that they've been made to look like a bunch of incompetent, corrupt, racist idiots by a crowd of uppity blacks and liberals.

If they'd have done their jobs in the first place, you'd still have had a shit storm, but the stream of faecal matter would have been directed at the lawmakers, rather than the police.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
I think you're confusing police culture issues with police actions in a particular case. One may well contribute to the other, and both need investigation and addressing, but suspending or sacking entire police departments strikes me as a blunt knee-jerk response that is likely to be counterproductive.

Any police force member who didn't have a problem with racial issues beforehand sure as hell WILL have after you tell them all, universally, how they're all horrible and incompetent.

Honestly, how are these variations on "all police are racists" any different to all the variations of "all blacks are criminals"?

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:
It is still wrong for the public to have a say in whether a person is arrested - that's how a lot of this crap started.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Horseman Bree:

Is there any way that the NRA can make a case that this was a legitimate use of a gun?

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quote:

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A is on phone with 911, following B down the street. B is on his phone with friend. A confronts B, asking "what are you doing around here?". B ignores him. A blocks B's path and again confronts him verbally, more aggressively this time, but does not physically touch him. B, being angry/confused/scared/whatever attacks A. A, fearing he's about to be beaten to death, shoots B with a heretofore concealed weapon.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:

As to all the protests and petitions and demands for the arrest of Zimmerman I don't believe in policing by popular opinion any more than I believe in shoddy police work. Let the Law officials do their jobs - they are now well aware there is additional evidence and missed evidence in this case, not to mention the Feds are now looking over their shoulders.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
All the rallies (and why one in New York, anyway?) and calls for Mr. Zimmerman to be locked up without an investigation (to say nothing of the police to be put in the stocks) smell of lynch mob law, to my mind.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by tclune:

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
All the rallies (and why one in New York, anyway?) and calls for Mr. Zimmerman to be locked up without an investigation (to say nothing of the police to be put in the stocks) smell of lynch mob law, to my mind.

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So you're all for vigilante shootings of unarmed people, but have a problem with lynch mobs? Your moral distinctions are a bit too subtle for me to grasp, I'm afraid.

--Tom Clune

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
What if it went down this way:

quote:

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A is on phone with 911, following B down the street. B is on his phone with friend. A confronts B, asking "what are you doing around here?". B ignores him. A blocks B's path and again confronts him verbally, more aggressively this time, but does not physically touch him. B, being angry/confused/scared/whatever attacks A. A, fearing he's about to be beaten to death, shoots B with a heretofore concealed weapon.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
Let the law have a chance to work before we decide to change it or ignore it entirely- if you do that, you're no better that the alleged perpetrator.

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quote:

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As critics assail Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law in the wake of the killing of an unarmed Miami Gardens teen in Sanford, a Miami-Dade judge on Wednesday cited the law in tossing out the case of a man who chased down a suspected burglar and stabbed him to death.

Greyston Garcia was charged with second-degree murder in the slaying of Pedro Roteta, 26, whom he chased for more than a block before stabbing the man.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:

What if it went down this way:

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
in a gunfight

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:

What if it went down this way:

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But it didn't. A 140lb black 17-year-old male is on his way home from a shop with skittles and a can of ice tea in his pocket. A 200lb 28-year-old male follows him, calls 911 on him, intimidates him and creates an altercation in which the 17-year-old is scared enough to call for help. The older male shoots the younger male in the chest and kills him.

That's what happened. There's no need to hypothesise.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
in a gunfight

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I was not aware that Trayvon Martin was also armed.

This wasn't a gunfight; it was racially-motivated vigilante murder.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
I support the rule of law. Period.

IF the incident happened as Mr. Zimmerman claims, and he was physically attacked by the unarmed Mr. Martin, and IF he was, indeed, in reasonable fear for his life, I would say he's probably OK here. I understand there are those who think that it is never OK to defend oneself, but I think they're nuts.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:
And no one can agree a slur was used on the 911 call.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by New Yorker:
Guests in our country murdered in cold blood. Where's the outrage about this?

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by New Yorker:
Guests in our country murdered in cold blood. Where's the outrage about this?

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quote:

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Accused: Shawn Tyson is on trial for the murders of British tourists James Cooper and James Kouzaris

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by tclune:

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
I support the rule of law. Period.

IF the incident happened as Mr. Zimmerman claims, and he was physically attacked by the unarmed Mr. Martin, and IF he was, indeed, in reasonable fear for his life, I would say he's probably OK here. I understand there are those who think that it is never OK to defend oneself, but I think they're nuts.

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Supporting the rule of law should depend on what the law says, ISTM. In my state, anyone who stalked another individual and then ended up shooting him, whether that individual was armed or not, would be in serious trouble. The notion that you can pursue another person (after having been told not to do so by the 911 dipatcher) and then claim self-defense for shooting them is so far beyond the pale of "self defense" that it is genuinely shocking that this man was not even arrested after the shooting. It sure seems that the only person who would have had any claim to self-defense was the victim.

--Tom Clune

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quote:

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Originally posted by malik3000:
And jbohn, what do you mean by "and why [a rally] in New York"?

If you think this was just a local incident without national significance, with all due respect, you are utterly divorced from reality. Not only must there be a national outcry, but US citizens of European ancestry have an especial responsibility to speak out against this cancer that has been at the heart of the US from the beginning.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:
As to all the protests and petitions and demands for the arrest of Zimmerman I don't believe in policing by popular opinion any more than I believe in shoddy police work. Let the Law officials do their jobs - they are now well aware there is additional evidence and missed evidence in this case, not to mention the Feds are now looking over their shoulders.

---

It seems to me that they were well aware of additional evidence before the protests. The only difference is that they've been made to look like a bunch of incompetent, corrupt, racist idiots by a crowd of uppity blacks and liberals.

If they'd have done their jobs in the first place, you'd still have had a shit storm, but the stream of faecal matter would have been directed at the lawmakers, rather than the police.

---

It is still wrong for the public to have a say in whether a person is arrested - that's how a lot of this crap started. As I stated the Feds are there and I think every i will be dotted and t crossed on this one. It's time for the public to back off a bit. Keep it in the public mind by reminder articles but quit demanding as the crowds I saw on the news tonight that "Zimmerman be arrested and convicted".

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by malik3000:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
The entire police department should be locked in stocks outdoors in the rain for 72 hours and forced to watch a continual loop of In the heat of the night while passers-by throw shit in their faces. And then sacked without compensation.

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Yeah, because obviously the ENTIRE police department was in on it, right? Especially the low ranked guys who weren't on shift at the time.

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While I definitely believe in the concept of innocent until proven guilty, in all too many of these small-city and town police departments this sort of activity is representative of the culture that permeates the whole police dept.

That is why i said in my earlier post that in such towns African-Americans (and other non-"whites") don't have a police dept. if police dept. is defined as a public safety service.

What i would do in such a case is to suspend the entire dept. and bring in another more law-abiding agency to manage public safety functions. Then after appropriate investigation of the suspended police dept., if there were actually decent individuals found, they could become part of a new or reformed police dept. The others should not be allowed to ever again be a police officer.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:

NEITHER of those outcomes can be ascertained by rallies thousands of miles away, or by the knee-jerk liberal response of "Guns bad! Racist police! Deep South! OMG!" that I'm seeing on this thread. It's just not useful, or helpful, to anyone- not Mr. Zimmerman, not the family of young Mr. Martin, not anyone. And they could all use prayers and compassion right about now- there are no winners in a gunfight, only degrees of losing.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:
... Zimmerman's story stinks, but I don't like mob action, That's why I say this needs honest police work, not a mob set up. I believe the Feds will see that anything that needs to be done will be done.

Hopefully Florida will tighten up it's gun laws

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by New Yorker:
Filming an amateur rap video. Where's the outrage over this?

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quote:

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The officers who were on the scene grabbed potential suspects.

Action News had the only camera on the scene as several young men were handcuffed and shown to witnesses before being loaded into a police van and patrol cars.

Detectives say they found guns on three of the men and one was identified as the killer.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
For whatever reason you seem unable to grasp the idea that the biggest outrage in the Trayvon Martin case is the way the local authorities essentially shrugged their shoulders and said "eh, whatevs".

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by New Yorker:

quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
For whatever reason you seem unable to grasp the idea that the biggest outrage in the Trayvon Martin case is the way the local authorities essentially shrugged their shoulders and said "eh, whatevs".

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Huh? The police chief has stepped aside. The governor has appointed a special prosecutor and, heaven help us, even Al Sharpton is involved.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by OliviaG:

quote:

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Originally posted by Niteowl2:
... Zimmerman's story stinks, but I don't like mob action, That's why I say this needs honest police work, not a mob set up. I believe the Feds will see that anything that needs to be done will be done.

Hopefully Florida will tighten up it's gun laws

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Once more with feeling: if it hadn't been for the "mob action", there wouldn't have been ANY police work, honest or otherwise. And Zimmerman, being still alive, has already had far more benefit of the doubt than he gave Trayvon Martin. OliviaG

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:

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Originally posted by New Yorker:

quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
For whatever reason you seem unable to grasp the idea that the biggest outrage in the Trayvon Martin case is the way the local authorities essentially shrugged their shoulders and said "eh, whatevs".

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Huh? The police chief has stepped aside. The governor has appointed a special prosecutor and, heaven help us, even Al Sharpton is involved.

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And you take all this as evidence of what a terrific job that police chief has been doing? How does that work exactly?

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Looks to me like you posted to the wrong thread, since I see NO calls for "Guns bad! Racist police! Deep South! OMG!".

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quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Hold on, I believe the incident is considered fine as long as a white person kills a black person. Think we might see a difference of opinion should the colours be reversed.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
The entire police department should be locked in stocks outdoors in the rain for 72 hours and forced to watch a continual loop of In the heat of the night while passers-by throw shit in their faces. And then sacked without compensation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by malik3000:
That is why i said in my earlier post that in such towns African-Americans (and other non-"whites") don't have a police dept. if police dept. is defined as a public safety service.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Is there any way that the NRA can make a case that this was a legitimate use of a gun?

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(what does the NRA have to do with it?)

I'll admit- I didn't find OMG!

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quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
otoh, our history here in the US is such that "rallies thousands of miles away" have, in fact, been quite helpful in bringing justice to these sorts of situations.

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quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Again, we are calling for investigation, not conviction. Just as we did 50 years ago.

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quote:

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Originally posted by OliviaG:
ItThese folks don't need Neighbourhood Watch, they need to be a neighbourhood.

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I missed this earlier.

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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
Give the legal system time to do its work, then start worrying about what it didn't do.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by tclune:
This killing happened a month ago: the police chose to not investigate, and had closed the case.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by tclune:

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
Give the legal system time to do its work, then start worrying about what it didn't do.

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Mission accomplished. This killing happened a month ago: the police chose to not investigate, and had closed the case. It was only then that the protests began. You must be very happy with their restraint -- or were you just blowing smoke?

--Tom Clune

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
My issue isn't with them- it's with the media-manufactured frenzy and cries of racism and bigotry without hard evidence.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:

With that, folks complained to their elected officials, and they're taking a second look at the case. Perfect. Again, that's how the system is supposed to work.

My issue isn't with them- it's with the media-manufactured frenzy and cries of racism and bigotry without hard evidence. It rings hollow, to me, when the same thing happens in other places and times, and it's not a national story.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
My issue isn't with them- it's with the media-manufactured frenzy and cries of racism and bigotry without hard evidence.

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They didn't test Zimmerman for either drink or drugs - though they did the same to the dead body. They didn't make any attempt to work out why his statements to the police and the account he gave to the dispatcher varied. They also didn't make any attempt to trace the victim (such as dialling any of the numbers on his phone), he was in a morgue for three days until they figured he was the boy his father had reported missing.

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quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Without the " media-manufactured frenzy" the "folks" you're referring to wouldn't have known about the case in order to complain. The "media-manufactured frenzy" is precisely why we're having a second look. Which, as you said, is " how the system is supposed to work."

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quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
aside: Having listened to the tape, I'm not sure if this is about potential racism or potential agism ("young punks") but I don't really care, either is offensive.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:

quote:

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Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
My issue isn't with them- it's with the media-manufactured frenzy and cries of racism and bigotry without hard evidence.

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They didn't test Zimmerman for either drink or drugs - though they did the same to the dead body. They didn't make any attempt to work out why his statements to the police and the account he gave to the dispatcher varied. They also didn't make any attempt to trace the victim (such as dialling any of the numbers on his phone), he was in a morgue for three days until they figured he was the boy his father had reported missing.

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I haven't seen any of this evidence- if true, it is certainly concerning and certainly changes things. It definitely brings into question the conduct of the police.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
How do you have an opinion about this case without having come across these fairly well known and, as far as I know, uncontested facts?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
Let's be honest. In practical terms, the law as it exists on the ground does "give them the right to kill if they believe they are in danger", even if they're deliberately provoking that danger. That's one of the things clearly illustrated by this case.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:
In, I suspect, the same way as you have this opinion without knowing whether FL law requires someone to be a reluctant participant in the altercation (most states do):

quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
Let's be honest. In practical terms, the law as it exists on the ground does "give them the right to kill if they believe they are in danger", even if they're deliberately provoking that danger. That's one of the things clearly illustrated by this case.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by New Yorker:

quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
For whatever reason you seem unable to grasp the idea that the biggest outrage in the Trayvon Martin case is the way the local authorities essentially shrugged their shoulders and said "eh, whatevs".

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Huh? The police chief has stepped aside. The governor has appointed a special prosecutor and, heaven help us, even Al Sharpton is involved.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
Umm, I also cited a pretty clear example illustrating that on an "as applied" basis, Florida's law does not require reluctance to claim self defense. [/QB]

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by jbohn:

quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
Umm, I also cited a pretty clear example illustrating that on an "as applied" basis, Florida's law does not require reluctance to claim self defense.

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I might point out that case isn't settled, either- the DA is appealing the verdict, and it will likely be some time before it works its way through the courts. (FWIW, I agree with the DA- this seems to be a perversion of the "self-defense" justification; if you can chase him down, you could be avoiding the fight instead. The law was meant to remove the duty to run away from an attacker -as in many cases, that isn't practical or safe- not to allow chasing someone down and attacking them.)

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