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Source: (consider it) Thread: Shot for being suspiciously black
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

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You're not alone, Johnny. "I'm but a stranger here..."

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Why would anyone want to shoot the child of such model Americans?

Lord, have mercy. Alogon, I can't believe you said that. Are you really suggesting that Zimmerman's motive for shooting Trayvon was that Trayvon's mother would do something in the future, after Trayvon's death, that you think is tacky?

I think it's understandable -- she wants to stop people (some of them not particularly well-meaning) from profiting from the death of her son, from trafficking in his memory. I understand that. I'm not sure I'd do it the same way she's doing it.

But even if what she's doing is inexcusably tacky, ill-mannered, and inappropriate -- do you really think that Zimmerman was a psychic, that he could look at Trayvon and know that Trayvon's mom would do something tacky in the future, and so of course he wanted to kill him?

If not, then what in God's name does this have to do with Zimmerman shooting Trayvon Martin?

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Amen, Josephine. I thought of saying something, but I didn't think it would do any good.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Why would anyone want to shoot the child of such model Americans?

This post is truly breathtaking. I mean, there's been a fair amount of shit posted in Purgatory of late, but this is really a whole other thing.
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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Why would anyone want to shoot the child of such model Americans?

Hmm. So basically, if you sin, we can take it out on your children?

Not only (as others have already pointed out) is that proposing a kind of insight that Mr Zimmermann, not being God, probably doesn't possess, but it's also spectacularly unbiblical as a legal proposition. See Ezekiel 18:20.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581

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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
You're not alone, Johnny. "I'm but a stranger here..."

I'm not trying to be snide here Alogon but I was including your post in my incredulity. My head is exploding not just with the reporting of what has happened but with the discussion too.

Shooting people because they have selfish parents seems to be lowering the bar when I thought it couldn't get any lower.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Piers Morgan has interviewed Zimmerman's brother. He seems like a very nice man for whatever that's worth.

My outrage over all this was initially directed at Zimmerman and the Florida police. The news accounts all portrayed Zimmerman as a trigger happy thug, Martin as a baby faced child, and the police as incompetents who had briefly questioned Zimmerman at the scene and then sent him on home. Now I'm finding that all of that was either slanted or false. My outrage has redirected to the media which seems to have abandoned any effort to report the truth and simply gone for the most sensational headlines and pandered to it's own liberal or conservative audience.

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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Why would anyone want to shoot the child of such model Americans?

Lord, have mercy. Alogon, I can't believe you said that. Are you really suggesting that Zimmerman's motive for shooting Trayvon was that Trayvon's mother would do something in the future, after Trayvon's death, that you think is tacky?


Of course not. If you can't believe it, then why do you want to believe it?

Just read Morris Berman. Hustling has been the American game since before the Declaration of Independence. It's what we're good at. We don't lose any opportunity to play it, even grief.

[ 30. March 2012, 12:52: Message edited by: Alogon ]

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
... Hustling has been the American game since before the Declaration of Independence. It's what we're good at. We don't lose any opportunity to play it, even grief.

[Mad] Did it occur to anybody that his parents might also want trademark protection so that they have some recourse when OTHER PEOPLE misuse their child's name or profit from their loss? Suppose someone starts selling "Trayvon was a good start" t-shirts or some other horrific shit? The Zimmermanns would be wise to do the same thing. OliviaG

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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They'll have to sell quite a few of those shirts to surpass the ad revenue that Sharpton has raked in on the deal, thats for sure.

[ 30. March 2012, 16:22: Message edited by: romanlion ]

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

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quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:

Did it occur to anybody that his parents might also want trademark protection so that they have some recourse when OTHER PEOPLE misuse their child's name or profit from their loss? Suppose someone starts selling "Trayvon was a good start" t-shirts or some other horrific shit? The Zimmermanns would be wise to do the same thing. OliviaG

How can I be more clear? Just read literally.
This is America. Trayvon's parents are playing our well-honed game, if only because others are already playing it at their expense, as we can easily expect. It's a kind of cannibalism.

What did Zimmerman (assuming he is guilty) think he was up to? If he imagined that he was being a good citizen, defending The American Way from furreners, he is sadly mistaken. They're no different. Their expertise in the game proves that they are just as American as anyone else.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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ToujoursDan

Ship's prole
# 10578

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If they are trademarking his name to make money off of it to line their pockets it's a breathtaking case of profiteering. If they are trademarking to make money that will be used to assist black male youths or some other valid cause, I'm perfectly fine with that.

Since they haven't revealed their intentions, it's not my place to judge.

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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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And it has bugger all to do with the shooting regardless.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Exactly. No matter what one thinks of his parents, that has absolutely no bearing on whether or not he deserved to be shot. That Alogon is doubling down on his original post about them is astonishing.
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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Zimmerman clearly wounded in police video.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Jonathan Strange
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# 11001

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Zimmerman clearly wounded in police video.

3 or 4 inch gashes but no blood? Even Zimmerman's lawyer doesn't think the video is sufficiently clear:

quote:
Craig Sonner, Zimmerman's lawyer, said the video was "too grainy" to show the injuries his client claimed he sustained in his fight with Martin.
The way the news report is written suggests he's commenting on the still shot taken from enhanced video and not just the original.

Forget the broken nose, if Martin had been on top of him, banging his head on the floor, and Zimmerman had pulled his gun and shot him at as point blank a range as it can ever be, wouldn't Zimmerman be covered in blood? There isn't a drop on his clothes.

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"Wrong will be right, when Aslan comes in sight,
At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more,
When he bears his teeth, winter meets its death,
When he shakes his mane, we shall have spring again"

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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I guess that if you'd 'enhance' a video of me (which I assume basically means pumping up the contrast of selected pixels), you'll get some dark lines on my skin as well.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Zimmerman clearly wounded in police video.

Meanwhile, another story linked to from the same page says that the screams for help on the 911 call couldn't have been Zimmermann.

That's 1-1 from the exact same site. Who the heck are we supposed to believe with all this extra analysis? It's hopeless.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443

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"clearly wounded"


[Killing me]

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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A recent wound to the head generally bleeds like an SOB. Those lines on his head look more like older scars.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959

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I felt that the failure of the authorities to fully investigate the shooting was scandalous. Now that they have been goaded into action, I confess that I find the current "trial by internet" every bit as unfortunate. I guess there's just no pleasing me...

--Tom Clune

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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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Yes, you're right. Now that a proper investigation is in place, it's time to back off and allow that process to go forward.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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Unless, of course, you are NBC or MSNBC.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Unless, of course, you are NBC or MSNBC.

So what, a free pass for the ABC who helpfully enhanced that video for you?

I doubt that "defence by media" is any more satsifactory than "trial by media".

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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Is there an indication that ABC intentionally manipulated the video? If so I had not heard about it.

NBC edited audio of the 911 call to be prejudicial. Plain and simple.

MSNBC has on air "talent" ( [Paranoid] ) stoking the fire surrounding the case for monetary gain.

Their credibility is nil.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Is there an indication that ABC intentionally manipulated the video? If so I had not heard about it.

Then let me be the first to inform you. My field is medical image processing. ALL image processing is intentionally manipulating the images. I have spent many months working with physicians on individual approaches to image enhancement, sometimes to just abandon the approach because it can create misleading or false information in the image.

Developing a technique from a known data set, and validating its value through such things as ROC tests is a very labor-intensive and costly process. Starting from a photo of unknown provinence and "enhancing" it in isolation is highly suspect. Indeed, I would not be surprised if someone at the TV station just fired up PhotoShop and pressed a few buttons until it looked good to them.

In court, that kind of crap doesn't fly -- the enhancement will be vetted by experts and studied with the care all such serious matters deserve. I imagine that the people who produced the "enhanced" photo were well-intentioned, but I hear-tell that the road to Hell is paved with just this material.

--Tom Clune

[ 03. April 2012, 16:38: Message edited by: tclune ]

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Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Exactly. No matter what one thinks of his parents, that has absolutely no bearing on whether or not he deserved to be shot. That Alogon is doubling down on his original post about them is astonishing.

Seriously. When I read it, I had one of those, "uh, wow" moments, and then with the doubling down, it was "alrighty then". But it's good when you know where people stand, eh?

Even if his parents were the worst people on the planet, there's no connection with his being shot. What the hell?

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
But it's good when you know where people stand, eh?

Even if his parents were the worst people on the planet, there's no connection with his being shot. What the hell?

Speaking of which... If you really believed that I claimed either that his parents were bad people or that Trayvon deserved to be shot because they were, you would be entirely justified in calling me to hell. Nobody has done so, and that is because the evidence is not there. All I'm saying, really, is that this crime (or at least tragedy) is quickly being exploited by people interested in grinding axes and making money. In this country, that's just par for the course.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
If you really believed that I claimed either that his parents were bad people or that Trayvon deserved to be shot because they were, you would be entirely justified in calling me to hell. Nobody has done so, and that is because the evidence is not there.

No, it's because I've been too busy.


quote:
All I'm saying, really, is that this crime (or at least tragedy) is quickly being exploited by people interested in grinding axes and making money. In this country, that's just par for the course.
Obviously, people are exploiting this. Are Trayvon Martin's parents doing so? Maybe. But that's not what you said.
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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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That's all it seemed like to me, Alogon, but I guess you (and I) need to tread carefully when we join an angry mob that's wavering from its original target.

So today we have Zimmerman's possible head wounds. Was it, maybe, more of a scrape against the concrete than an actual cut? Trayvon had no damage to his knuckles which makes me think he either wasn't assaulting Zimmerman at all or was banging his head by holding his hair or shoulders.

Plus,we have the voice experts saying that it wasn't Zimmerman yelling for help. If it was Trayvon's voice, then it's unlikely he was beating Zimmerman into the ground and screaming for help at the same time. Could the voice be a witness who is afraid to come forward?

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Amos

Shipmate
# 44

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How much hair did Zimmerman have to get a grip on, Twilight?

[ 03. April 2012, 20:12: Message edited by: Amos ]

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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Laura
General nuisance
# 10

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quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
How much hair did Zimmerman have to get a grip on, Twilight?

Not much.

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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Alex Cockell

Ship’s penguin
# 7487

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Thinking about the way it was reported on Channel 4 News over here - it's pretty terrifying...

What's the upshot? That visitors to Florida should wear high-viz all the time? If challenged by someone with a gun, just stop, raise hands, and obey all instructions regardless of who they are?

How do tourists stay safe when there are trigger-happy idiots like Zimmerman there, and the police won't help?

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
Forget the broken nose, if Martin had been on top of him, banging his head on the floor, and Zimmerman had pulled his gun and shot him at as point blank a range as it can ever be, wouldn't Zimmerman be covered in blood? There isn't a drop on his clothes.

This.

Even if the paramedics had cleaned up Zimmerman's injuries, I don't think they'd have given him a shower and a change of clothes at the scene. I've never heard of that happening anyway. He was much to clean and tidy for his version of what happened to make any sense at all.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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Alex Cockell

Ship’s penguin
# 7487

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Also - would the entry and exit wounds match the point-blank impact model?
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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Is there an indication that ABC intentionally manipulated the video? If so I had not heard about it.

I don't think you understand what image enhancement means. As tclune says, it inherently means manipulation. It doesn't necessarily mean manipulation towards an intended outcome, but it does mean alteration, for good or ill.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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I know an autopsy was done; when would results from an autopsy normally be released? Is it odd that they haven't been released yet? Or is that what one would expect?

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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The Silent Acolyte

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# 1158

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Drugs, Josephine, drugs. Gotta wait for the toxicology results. To be sure that black boy wasn't hepped up when he beat that innocent vigilante.


quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
What's the upshot?

Very funny Alex, very funny.
quote:
That visitors to Florida should wear high-viz all the time? If challenged by someone with a gun, just stop, raise hands, and obey all instructions regardless of who they are?
Forget the hi-viz, but yeah, when someone points a weapon at you, raise your hands, say yes sir, no sir, and give 'em what they want. Well...unless you get caught up in shit like this, in which case you fight like a motherfucker.
quote:
How do tourists stay safe when there are trigger-happy idiots like Zimmerman there, and the police won't help?
I don't worry about lightening when I visit Britain; you shouldn't either when you visit the US.
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The Silent Acolyte

Shipmate
# 1158

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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Why would anyone want to shoot the child of such model Americans?

Channeling Shadowhund, I see.
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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Drugs, Josephine, drugs. Gotta wait for the toxicology results. To be sure that black boy wasn't hepped up when he beat that innocent vigilante.

Trayvon Martin was tested for drugs,(with negative results) almost immediately. The shooter was not tested. Just one of the early examples of how poor this investigation was.

[ 04. April 2012, 10:11: Message edited by: Twilight ]

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Is there an indication that ABC intentionally manipulated the video? If so I had not heard about it.

Then let me be the first to inform you.
Once more and slowly, for our northern brothers...

Is there evidence that ABC intentionally manipulated the video to produce a result that otherwise would not appear as was done with the 911 audio?

If so I had not heard about it.

The marks, whatever they are, were clearly visible in the original video.

As for the "Trayvon was a good start" T-shirts mentioned upthread, I haven't been able to find one for sale. Anyone got a link?

My "Pussy Ass Cracker" T-shirt, on the other hand, should be arriving any day now.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Once more and slowly, for our northern brothers...

Is there evidence that ABC intentionally manipulated the video to produce a result that otherwise would not appear as was done with the 911 audio?

If you are asking whether there was malice in the intent of the manipulator, certainly that is not in evidence. I would like to challenge you to demonstrate that there was malice in the audio tape editing. Certainly, the result distorted the transcript, but that hardly proves intent. As I was hoping to help you recognize, the same may well be true of the photo editing. Apparently, I failed in that effort.

--Tom Clune

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This space left blank intentionally.

Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Certainly, the result distorted the transcript, but that hardly proves intent. As I was hoping to help you recognize, the same may well be true of the photo editing. Apparently, I failed in that effort.
--Tom Clune

The video is roughly the same in both versions. One with a little more clarity, but the same video.

To say that the 911 call edit distorts the transcript is rich.

It creates a completely false version of the conversation that is quite nasty indeed. Also, we are talking about NBC here, home of the venerable Reverend Al.

If that edit was an innocent error, it was bad enough to warrant never trusting their reporting again. If it wasn't an innocent error....well, same thing.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443

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Romanlion,

I'm pleased to see that you have retreated from "clearly wounded" to "The marks, whatever they are...", but are they even "marks"?

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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I have the same hair-do as George does. I have several scars on my head. I can say with relative certainty that those vertical marks in the back of his head are not natural, and not the way fat rolls on a skull. Combine that with the attention the officer gives them and I think it is safe to assume that they are something of note.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Combine that with the attention the officer gives them

Eh?

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Seriously. I've just gone back and looked at the link to the video you posted, romanlion, and with the best will in the world, specifically looking for it, I cannot see the slightest sign of anyone paying any attention to the back of Zimmermann's head. Not the slightest.

They look down at the ground. Up, down, around. They look at the back of his head no more than the back of the rest of him when he's walking in front of them. At no stage does anyone in the video show any sign at all of reacting to the back of his head as if there's something noteworthy about it.

And frankly, it would be quite bizarre if they DID react because by this stage the police have had plenty of time to notice if there's anything remarkable there. That is, accepting for the sake of argument that those are indeed gashes on the back of his head, by the time of that video the gashes are OLD NEWS to the police escorting Zimmermann.

It just seems to me that you're making the kind of massive overreach that betrays your argument weaknesses.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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I sit here, having young adult sons, not so different from the deceased; I sit here with plenty of good ol' Constitutionally-legally-owned firearms of my own. I hope I never have to use them in defense of myself or others, but I pray I'd have the resolution to use them if needed.

I have nothing special to add, except that I hope to God actual real true information is there to look at, when it comes time for judges and juries to look at it. Heaven knows the stupidity rampant all over the media is of no help. It's like one can predict almost word-for-word what a reporter or editor will say about the whole sad mess, depending upon the publication or TV show, without even bothering to listen to them.

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960

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quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:

How do tourists stay safe when there are trigger-happy idiots like Zimmerman there, and the police won't help?

The simplest way is not to be a tourist in the USA. If the "shoot anybody, anytime" culture (protected in law in several states thanks to the NRA) is not enough to put you off, the tiresome entry/ visa procedures should do the trick.

I don't plan on touring Iraq of Afghanistan any time soon either, for much the same reasons.

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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Janine:


I have nothing special to add, except that I hope to God actual real true information is there to look at, when it comes time for judges and juries to look at it. Heaven knows the stupidity rampant all over the media is of no help. It's like one can predict almost word-for-word what a reporter or editor will say about the whole sad mess, depending upon the publication or TV show, without even bothering to listen to them.

My feelings exactly. I had thought that the most extreme bias from our reporters was limited to politics. This case has taught me, more than anything I've ever followed in the news, that the truth means far less than pandering to the regular viewers. We watch CNN and NBC at home, see FOX at a restaurant we frequent, and listen to NPR on the radio. One is as bad as the other.
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