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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Shot for being suspiciously black
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I'm not a lawyer but as I understand it. Second degree murder is a step below first degree murder and a step above voluntary manslaughter. It means the murder was willful but not premeditated. My guess is the prosecutor will argue that Zimmerman's action's provoked Martin to attack him, Martin attacked Zimmerman, retreated, and then Zimmerman shot him after he no longer had reasonable cause to fear for his life.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Upon further reading, Florida apparently has Third Degree Murder and Manslaughter but does not divide manslaughter into voluntary and involuntary. Murder 3 is when you unintentionally kill somebody while committing a nonviolent felony.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Clint Boggis
Shipmate
# 633
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Posted
So where does stalking an unarmed minor and provoking them to respond in fear so you can claim self defense when you shoot them like a complete coward fall?
Posts: 1505 | From: south coast | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
He's being charged with second degree murder.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I'm not a lawyer but as I understand it. Second degree murder is a step below first degree murder and a step above voluntary manslaughter. It means the murder was willful but not premeditated.
As I recall from dipping into my grandfather's copy of the Wisconsin Statutes as a kid, the phrase there was "by an act injurious to mankind and evincing a depraved mind." In other words (I gather), the offender may never have intended the victim's death at all, but was definitely expressing heavy-duty malice.
In New York State, first-degree murder is reserved to cases where the victim is a police officer or similar personage.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Would everybody be satisfied with a plea?
To be honest I'd even be satisfied with an acquittal!
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
I watched a bit of the Al Sharpton press conference and they all emphasized that "What makes America great is the rule of law" and that while several thought what Zimmerman did was wrong, they expressed faith in the process.
It may or may not be just talk, but it was good to hear.
Speaking for myself: I'm less concerned about the outcome in this case than it getting to court in the first place and than in a crazy law that allows people to shoot others, merely claim self defence and then walk away. That law seems set up for abuse.
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clint Boggis:
So where does stalking an unarmed minor and provoking them to respond in fear so you can claim self defense when you shoot them like a complete coward fall?
You don't get to be on the jury, Clint. For one thing, it's hard to tell that a six foot three male, walking in the dark, is a minor.
I sure wish I could be on the jury. I honestly think I'm confused enough by the whole thing to be unbiased. Please let it be on Court TV.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
OIC, we don't have that distinction in the UK - that would just be described as murder. Tariff of life sentence recommended to be served would vary though.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
That law seems set up for abuse.
One of the most insane laws ever.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Speaking for myself: I'm less concerned about the outcome in this case than it getting to court in the first place and than in a crazy law that allows people to shoot others, merely claim self defence and then walk away. That law seems set up for abuse.
Well, no, it's not the law itself that does that, but how it's applied. The law allows a fair degree of self defence. What it doesn't say is that as soon as someone claims self-defence, you're required to believe them.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
OIC, we don't have that distinction in the UK - that would just be described as murder. Tariff of life sentence recommended to be served would vary though.
The penalty for second degree murder in Florida is 17 to life. Penalty for first degree murder is life without parole or the death penalty. Manslaughter and Third Degree Murder get you from 10-15 years. Theoretically, the low number is the minimum time time served in prison. The distinction is very important especially in states with the death penalty. Even states (almost every one) without the death penalty have life without parole for first degree murder.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Speaking for myself: I'm less concerned about the outcome in this case than it getting to court in the first place and than in a crazy law that allows people to shoot others, merely claim self defence and then walk away. That law seems set up for abuse.
Well, no, it's not the law itself that does that, but how it's applied. The law allows a fair degree of self defence. What it doesn't say is that as soon as someone claims self-defence, you're required to believe them.
No, it does not say that. If you believe laws are applied fairly and justly, the law still sets higher the potential for needless violence.
BTW, if you believe laws are applied fairly and justly, I'm an estate agent in Atlantis. Ring me up, we'll talk.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Speaking for myself: I'm less concerned about the outcome in this case than it getting to court in the first place and than in a crazy law that allows people to shoot others, merely claim self defence and then walk away. That law seems set up for abuse.
Well, no, it's not the law itself that does that, but how it's applied. The law allows a fair degree of self defence. What it doesn't say is that as soon as someone claims self-defence, you're required to believe them.
No, it does not say that. If you believe laws are applied fairly and justly, the law still sets higher the potential for needless violence.
BTW, if you believe laws are applied fairly and justly, I'm an estate agent in Atlantis. Ring me up, we'll talk.
I understand that, but the distinction is important. If you try to solve the wrong problem, or try to solve it in the wrong way, the solution won't work.
I'm not saying that the law here is perfect, either. But criminal law is full of defences and exceptions. The Florida law isn't remotely unique in that respect. Self-defence is, at least in the English-speaking world, pretty well a universal concept. Nowhere would claiming self-defence be, as a matter of law, good enough. In a court, it's perfectly possible for a judge to rule that the defence simply hasn't been raised on the evidence.
Similar issues surround many other types of crime, eg rape cases where there are questions not only around consent but about whether the accused knew there wasn't consent. Standing there reciting by rote that "I thought she'd consented" isn't what's required. Not if the evidence clearly points the other way. The difficulties arise when there's at least enough evidence to raise the question.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Mary Marriott
Apprentice
# 16938
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Posted
How I wish all comments here reflected * :
A young life has been taken away.
(while walking up his father's road with sweets.)
* t'is a christian site, right ?
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'We have to be ready to move forward' she said. 'Maybe this is not how we are meant to be for ever.' (Mina in Skellig)
Posts: 32 | From: the half way house | Registered: Feb 2012
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
So all Christians should think and say exactly the same thing? Has that ever happened? C'mon, even the gospel writers couldn't agree, and the people who compiled the Bible apparently were cool with that, since they included four of them.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mary Marriott:
How I wish all comments here reflected * :
A young life has been taken away.
(while walking up his father's road with sweets.)
* t'is a christian site, right ?
If you read the first page or two of this thread you will see many reflections on the tragedy of a young life lost.
Now the conversation has moved on to other topics, some very important, such as the validity of the "stand your ground laws," racial profiling in general, the dangers of carrying a gun while walking your neighborhood with trouble in mind.
Sadly, young lives are lost through violence every day. Maybe these discussions, going on across the country, will bring about a few changes, or cause people to think twice about a few things, resulting in a future young life being saved. If so then the thread has done more good than nine pages of expressions of sadness over Trayvon's death.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mary Marriott:
* t'is a christian site, right ?
Not specifically, no.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
ITTWACWS? So soon?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Clint Boggis
Shipmate
# 633
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Clint Boggis:
So where does stalking an unarmed minor and provoking them to respond in fear so you can claim self defense when you shoot them like a complete coward fall?
You don't get to be on the jury, Clint. For one thing, it's hard to tell that a six foot three male, walking in the dark, is a minor.
True, you can't tell, so why pursue him when he's been told not to? Extremely poor judgement in circumstances where almost anyone would take the opposite view and not stalk or engage him.
quote:
I sure wish I could be on the jury. I honestly think I'm confused enough by the whole thing to be unbiased. Please let it be on Court TV.
No similar case should be dismissed by police (when someone is killed or injured) merely on the word of the killer without proper investigation.
I hope the truth is discovered and Zimmerman gets a fair trial.
Posts: 1505 | From: south coast | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Affidavit of Probable Cause
Haven't read all of this. So far, all I've learned is a new word: Affiants. Once I stop chuckling at the phrase "Your Affiants," I'll finish reading it.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
Rather amteurish document. Clumsy and poorly punctuated.
And again with the skittles and tea?
Really?
Bring on the trial, for Pete's sake.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
We, the jury, find the defendant not guilty by reason of bad grammar on the part of the prosecution
Really? That's all you've got? Thought you would argue the content, you know, the important part.
[ 13. April 2012, 16:14: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Guilty by reason of your lawyer's bad grammar is one of those little known crimes along with innocent through possession of Skittles. It really is a good thing Trayvon didn't buy black coffee and beef jerky, the murder two rap would have been much harder to get.
Far be from me to question anyone's grammar but I did notice some needlessly inflamatory word choices like saying that Zimmerman "profiled" Martin when all they meant was that he spotted him.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Affidavit of Probable Cause
Haven't read all of this. So far, all I've learned is a new word: Affiants. Once I stop chuckling at the phrase "Your Affiants," I'll finish reading it.
Sounds like something a lackey would call the duke. "Yes, your affiants. Right away, your affiants."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Far be from me to question anyone's grammar but I did notice some needlessly inflamatory word choices like saying that Zimmerman "profiled" Martin when all they meant was that he spotted him.
No, they meant he profiled him. I suspect that's part of the basis for arguing that the crime was second degree murder rather than manslaughter. Whether it's true or not, I have no idea. But I doubt that it was either casual or inflammatory language -- it is presumably an integral part of what the prosecution will be arguing.
--Tom Clune
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This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Far be from me to question anyone's grammar but I did notice some needlessly inflamatory word choices like saying that Zimmerman "profiled" Martin when all they meant was that he spotted him.
Not just needlessly inflammatory, but inadmissible in court, I'd think. When testifying as a witness awhile back, I carelessly said "he thought," and the defense attorney snapped an objection the instant the words were out of my mouth. Profiling in this sense is a thought, without enough evidence to substantiate the conclusion.
But I'd rather see an authentic transcription of an everyday witness's words, instead of the alleged gist of it as polished up by someone else with the usual impeccable bureaucratese.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
... And again with the skittles and tea?
Really? ...
IANAL, but one obvious line of defense is that Zimmerman *thought* Martin was armed, because he was holding an object, or because his pockets were bulging, or because the objects he was holding could be used as weapons. OliviaG
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Guilty by reason of your lawyer's bad grammar is one of those little known crimes along with innocent through possession of Skittles. It really is a good thing Trayvon didn't buy black coffee and beef jerky, the murder two rap would have been much harder to get.
Far be from me to question anyone's grammar but I did notice some needlessly inflamatory word choices like saying that Zimmerman "profiled" Martin when all they meant was that he spotted him.
You expect the prosecution to use nice words to describe the actions of a man they want to put in prison for 17 years to life?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Affidavit of Probable Cause
Haven't read all of this. So far, all I've learned is a new word: Affiants. Once I stop chuckling at the phrase "Your Affiants," I'll finish reading it.
Well, that opening drafting is awful, but...
Martin was on the phone to a friend?? Whoa. That I didn't know yet. Fairly important in terms of establishing that Martin was afraid.
[ 14. April 2012, 00:29: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Martin was on the phone to a friend?? Whoa. That I didn't know yet. Fairly important in terms of establishing that Martin was afraid.
The cell phone is key in at least two questions about the conduct of the Sanford police.
1) The Sanford police had Trayvon's cell phone, yet did not use it to identify him, instead classifying him as 'John Doe'. According to news accounts, "Mom" and "Dad" were entries in the phone's address book, yet Trayvon's father Tracy had to call the police before an identification was made.
2) The Sanford police had Trayvon's cell phone, yet did not go through its history of calls to see if he was on the phone with anyone at the time of the shooting. That was done by Trayvon's father, who discovered that Trayvon had indeed been talking to a friend about somebody following him just before he was killed.
It's difficult to determine where these fall on the malicious/incompetent spectrum, but I'm hoping that after some scrutiny is given to Zimmerman, there's enough left over for the Sanford police department.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
We, the jury, find the defendant not guilty by reason of bad grammar on the part of the prosecution
Really? That's all you've got? Thought you would argue the content, you know, the important part.
I wasn't arguing anything about guilt or innocence. I was making an observation about a charging document for a very serious crime.
I would expect a Special Prosecutor appointed by a state Governor to produce something a little more professional than that middle school pile of shite.
Were I Martin's family or George's I would be equally concerned.
Between her performance at the presser and that affidavit my confidence would be shaky at best.
[ 14. April 2012, 23:21: Message edited by: romanlion ]
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Have you ever heard a kid in middle school use the word, Affiants?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
I stand corrected.
It is a stunnning document.
Fluid and concise.
Flawless, really.
I am sure no more brilliant a legal mind exists outside 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Having worked as a legal secretary for several years, I can tell you it's no worse for punctuation and grammar than hundreds of documents I've seen. I used to correct blatant errors silently, but I was one of the few secretaries I know who did.
It also illustrates nicely what I used to call "error blessed by custom" -- errors that occur so frequently that they come to be regarded as correct.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
... I was making an observation about a charging document for a very serious crime. ...
If this observation is based on your reading of many other similar documents, it should be no trouble to present some examples of good charging documents for comparison. OliviaG
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Lots of people with legal qualifications can't write particularly well. More news at 11.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
When testifying as a witness awhile back, I carelessly said "he thought," and the defense attorney snapped an objection the instant the words were out of my mouth. Profiling in this sense is a thought, without enough evidence to substantiate the conclusion.
I agree that racial profiling on the part of a citizen is a thought, but the verb profile alone merely means to describe -- something he was asked to do by the police. Still, all the angry people from the million hoodies march will probably read "profiled" as racial profiling and say, "There! I knew it!."
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Bumping the thread because I came across this:
quote:
An unidentified entrepreneur admits he is trying to profit off Trayvon Martin's death by selling gun range targets featuring the teen who's death has sparked a nationwide controversy.
Although Martin's face does not appear on the paper targets, they feature a hoodie with crosshairs aimed at the chest. A bag of Skittles is tucked in the pocket and a hand is holding a can resembling iced tea.
Martin purchased both items minutes before he was shot and killed by George Zimmerman in February, according to police.
<snip>
The seller would not disclose how many paper targets had been made, but said in an email, "The response is overwhelming. I sold out in 2 days."
Very classy!
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
My God! Man's inhumanity to man can leave one utterly speechless.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
It seems the depths some folks will sink to in order to make a buck know no bounds.
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
It seems the depths some folks will sink to in order to make a buck know no bounds.
Nothing new. Back in the heyday of lynching in Southern and parts of midwestern US, when these events were big entertainment events for many European-Americans, souvenir photos used to be sold. ETA in the 1920ssometimes the eents were announced in advance on local radio stations.
[ 14. May 2012, 21:14: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
I hate to say I told you so...OliviaG
Do you really? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 15. May 2012, 13:19: Message edited by: jbohn ]
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
FWIW, Zimmerman was injured in the altercation, according to ABC News:
quote:
A medical report compiled by the family physician of Trayvon Martin shooter George Zimmerman and obtained exclusively by ABC News found that Zimmerman was diagnosed with a "closed fracture" of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Martin during an alleged altercation.
Based on this, his claim of self-defense seems more reasonable.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Nothing so far negates if he had not followed, nothing would have happened.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
But did he follow?
He either followed or lied to the 911 operator when she asked him "Are you following him?"
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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