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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Church of England and the Free Church of England
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jordan32404
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# 15833
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Posted
I'm curious about the relationship between the CofE and the FCofE. How is the Free Church treated by the Established Church? Are orders recognized, etc.? Is the Free Church regarded as "Anglican"?
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justlooking
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# 12079
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Posted
The Free Church of England regards itself as Anglican but is not one of the churches recognised as being 'in communion'.
John Fenwick the Bishop of the Northern Diocese is a former Church of England priest. The Bishop for the Southern Diocese is from the Reformed Episcopal Church of America.
They use buildings and forms of worship which are very similar to what you might find in many CofE churches however they don't have any women as ministers, including lay readers.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
The FCE of the 1990s was a bit like the Low end of the Church of Ireland in the 1970s. Strictly BCP, with rather a strong memories of old-style Evangelical theology, but identifying more as "Low Church" than "Evangelical.
Their BCP is essentially 1662, but with the word priest removed, and most of the Red Letter Days deleted, though oddly, the proper lessons remained for MP and EP even though the Collect, Epistle and Gospel. The bloody awful REC Declaration of Principles is included which eventually cause me to depart from the denomination mainly because the enthusiasts on the Evo wing tended to use them to rule out good Oxford theology of the pre-Tractarian era. However, the final straw for me was the shinnangins that led to the split between the main FCE and the Evangelical Connexion of the FCE. My closer friends were in the latter but my ecclesiastical sympathies with the former.
There was a move when I was in the FCE to come into full communion with the C of E. This was pushed by the Low Church wing of the denomination, and vehemently opposed by the stronger Evangelicals. This was stopped at the 1996 Convention of the denomination, but there was a lot of bad blood afterwards.
PD
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
How many of these people ARE there? I'd suggest that it is possible to spend an entire lifetime in Anglican circles over here and not even be aware that they exist.
They seem pretty invisible in non-conformist/Free Church circles too.
I've never actually met anyone from the Free Church of England and only once or twice seen a publication or a web-page.
Are we talking two men and a dog here? A Bishop operating from a shed in his back garden?
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justlooking
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# 12079
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Posted
If you check out the website link above you'll find a map of their churches. I think there's about a dozen churches, 4 in London, 2 in the Midlands and the rest in Lancashire. I've seen membership figures of around 1,500 for FCE and perhaps a similar number for the ones who broke away.
I got to know about them from another forum which was joined by someone claiming to be a lay reader in an FCE church. This member's posts aroused suspcion that he might be a sockpuppet. It was an easy matter to confirm with bishop John Fenwick that there is no such lay reader in FCE and indeed no-one at all matching the details given. Someone else did some investigating of the alleged puppeteer and we found some links. One particular name, who is within the FCE, crops up all over the place.
The FCE seems rather like the kind of church I remember from the 1950's. Very involved in local communities, running youth groups including brownies and guides, cubs and scouts and also providing social activities for older people. I couldn't subscribe to their theology and the male-only rule for ministers, but they seem level-headed and sincere.
I doubt if they could keep going without funding coming in from outside sources. Some apparently comes from America via an educational project and I suspect the Freemasons give considerable support. One of the reasons for the schism given by the breakaway group was the FCE's heavy involvement in freemasonry.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
I'm curious about the relationship between the CofE and the FCofE.
None at all. Most people haven't heard of it.
quote:
How is the Free Church treated by the Established Church?
It isn't
quote:
Are orders recognized, etc.?
That would depend on how the minister was ordained and by who. Some of them would have been ordained regularly before they joined the breakaway lot. I suppose its just possible that some might be ex-Catholic priests. But the answer is almost certainly not.
quote:
Is the Free Church regarded as "Anglican"?
I don't think its regarded, or even noticed, at all.
If you asked CofE members to think of a breakaway denomination that is sort of a little bit Anglican and whose orders we don't recognise even though most of us would like to, if they thought of anyone they would likely think of the Methodists.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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justlooking
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# 12079
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Posted
Anyone readingthis report in the Lancashire Evening Post would probably assume a connection with the CofE. They're involved with Churches Together and their buildings are used for youth groups and social activities so within their own neighbourhoods they wil be well-known. I think most people walking past a church building with a sign proclaiming it as 'St David's, Free Church of England' would assume it to be a branch of the CofE.
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jordan32404
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# 15833
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Posted
Sorry, I suppose I should clarify, I mean the official CofE stance not the average layman's perception of things.
The FCE seems to be a little more "Anglican" in their use of the BCP, etc. than other low-church breakaways like CESA (or official dioceses like Sydney). And it also seems like in the Anglican breakaway world, there are those who work more with the established varieties.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
Sorry, I suppose I should clarify, I mean the official CofE stance...
There almost certainly isn't one.
Check the website? But I'd be surprised if you found anything much. There's a list of denominations the CofE is in communion with. And somewhere a list of denominations we do LEPs with I suppose. And maybe even a list of denominations whose orders we recognise, though I've never seen it if there is.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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justlooking
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# 12079
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Posted
The FCE has embraced ecumenicism which is another bone of contention with the breakaway group -'Free Church of England Evangelical Connexion'. There are some links and apparently some instances of shared worship with the CofE. The fact that FCE is not in communion with the CofE doesn't prevent cordial relations. John Fenwick was Assistant Secretary of Ecumenical Affairs for the Archbishop of Canterbury (1988-92) before joining FCE.
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otyetsfoma
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# 12898
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Posted
I have known two CofE priests who came from the FCofE. One, in Canada fifty years ago had been (re-)ordained in the ACofC because of the FCE doctrine of "parity of orders". The second was a moderate high churchman and very prominent in the Anglican Society and The Prayer Book Society . He had been received in his orders.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
One thing that should be noted is that the FCE remained as close to the C of E it could in matters of doctrine and worship as it could without compromising its Evangelical character. Hence the ordinal is practically the same as that of the Church of England's 1662 BCP, and certainly there is no suggestion of parity of orders in the FCE Ordinal, but the orders of bishop and presbyter are somewhat merged - see below. I won't speak for the Canadian set up as they have been part of the REC since the 1940s and therefore used the old REC Ordinal which was based on that of the 1785 Proposed BCP of the PECUSA.
The question about FCE orders has usually centre on two facts:
Firstly, that the original REC/FCE consecrations tended to be undertaken by one bishop assisted by several presbyters.
Secondly, the classic FCE/REC position seems to be that Bishops and Presbyters share a common ministry, but only bishops can exercise the fullness of that ministry, hence the need to consecrate them to that ministry. This is not a novel position as it accords with some mediaeval theologians.
Bishop Frank Wilson of Eau Claire reporting to the PECUSA House of Bishops recommended the recognition of REC Orders back in the 1940s, and this was eventually acted upon probably in the 1970s.
In the UK, the FCE and the Church of England had some fairly detailed negotiations about the FCE being recognized by the Anglican Communion in the early-1990s, when George Carey was ABC. To some degree these were mishandled by the FCE bishop who headed up the discussion who basically left the rest of us in the dark and fed us on shit, with predictable consequences when the matter came to the vote.
In 1995, when I was in the FCE it had 26 churches, two missions, and about 1500 communicants. I think current the main FCE has about 16 churches and the Connexion 10 with both sides claiming about a 1000 members. I always thought that a good growth strategy would have been to angle at some of the more PBS types in the Church of England as, at that time the FCE was pretty much all BCP, although there was some experimentation with both 'A Prayer Book for Australia' and the CESA Prayer Book, but that was strictly not on Sunday mornings. I also did a little pushing for 'An English Prayer Book' whilst I was in there.
Most FCE churches have conventional Anglican interiors but you will look in vain for a cross and candlesticks on the Communion Table, and although the altar often has a frontal on it, it is not changed with the seasons. The usual vestments are cassock, surplice, tippet and hood, but the FCE BCP specifically allows the use of the gown for preaching.
PD
(former FCE Presbyter)
[ 12. April 2012, 17:50: Message edited by: PD ]
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justlooking
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# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
Sorry, I suppose I should clarify, I mean the official CofE stance...
There almost certainly isn't one.
The Wikipedia page on FCE has this:
quote:
It is a Designated Church under the Church of England's Ecumenical Canons. FCE bishops have attended the enthronements of George Carey and Rowan Williams as Archbishops of Canterbury.
and this
quote:
The Church has continued to ordain bishops in the apostolic succession, with Moravian, Church of England and Indian Orthodox bishops taking part on occasion.[6] T
So I suppose the official stance is that the CofE accepts the FCE as a 'Designated Church', which means the bishops get invited to enthronements and some CofE bishops can be involved in consecrating FCE bishops.
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Are we talking two men and a dog here? A Bishop operating from a shed in his back garden?
"Like Gideon of old, I've seen the fearful and uncommitted winnowed away .." (with apologies to Adrian Plass.
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Calleva Atrebatum
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# 14058
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Posted
Hadn't heard of these guys, but it reminded me of a little church which set up in Canterbury a few years ago, called the Anglican Catholic Church - not in communion with Canterbury or Rome, but very high, Council of Trent style, I think (maybe Sarum, I'm not sure - but definitely high). The FCofE sounds a little bit like the low/BCP version.
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Offence is taken, it is not given.
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Lutherkehrt
Apprentice
# 17058
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Posted
The comment about links is exactly what Bp Fenwick would and has argued... however I do not think that the CofE would take the same viewpoint on it. In fact, using some tortuous logic he has even argued that they (the FCE) are in communion with the CofE. More to the point is that when clergy have left the FCE and gone to the CofE they have been ordained by the CofE - I think that makes it quite clear what the CofE thinks of the FCE!
Some facts are a little inaccurate here, in this string. I am an 'insider' so to speak, and I do not aim to 'diss' anyone, simply to straighten out facts for the enquirer.
The FCE Southern Diocese Bishop, Paul Hunt, is NOT an REC man from the US, but very English indeed!
Neither the FCE nor the Evangelical Connexion (EC) could claim 1000 members with any honesty. Maybe half that, if they were truthful about it.
The FCE is very concerned with 'what they do', in terms of robes and so on. In fact they are now going the REC (US) direction, and heading into greater use of robes, ritual, and paraphernalia.
The EC has one Bishop who was indeed an ex-RC priest - Dominic Stockford. Though he is thorough-going Protestant these days, and chairman of the PTS to boot. None of the FCE are ex-romans.
One EC church uses the English Prayer Book, others use CESA's book, or variant of that, and three use the FCE Prayer Book. The FCE churches are all bound to use the FCE Prayer Book for what they term their "main" Sunday service - though in practice they have found ways around that. E.G. following a Prayer Book service almost immediately with a more 'free' service, or designating their evening as main, and doing whatever in the morning. On the whole though, the FCE remain what I would term 'Prayer Book Ritualists'.
The FCE Bishops who attended the enthronements did so as "private individuals", and were quite insistent upon that, mainly because they had not been given permission to do so as representatives of the FCE. They can't now have that one both ways. One was present in Westminster Abbey to listen to his popeness speak.
The FCE have indeed many Masons in their number - one of their bishops is one, and one of their bishops is (was?) the chaplain to the British Israelites. Money has been forthcoming from this corner - I know for a fact that one minister had his robes purchased via masonic support. He told me.
The EC seems to be shrinking - however they would argue that their purpose was to free truly reformed evangelicals from the FCE, and that purpose having been fulfilled it would be no issue were they to head towards congregationalism, or some other group with which they are so similar.
The FCE seems, as one poster commented, to be a 1950's version of church - doing low-church ritual and getting on with social activities. I don't think it is growing.
Unless something odd happens I really don't think that it is likely to have much link with the CofE, who would rather eat it and turn its property into cash than have more churches to have to look after, where there are already plenty.
Ask further, if you wish to know further.
P.S. For your information, I joined the FCE in 1998, but have never even heard of PD. He may or may not be happy to know that he didn't leave much of an impression!
[ 13. April 2012, 15:26: Message edited by: Lutherkehrt ]
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In Christ alone I find my hope
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Calleva Atrebatum:
Hadn't heard of these guys, but it reminded me of a little church which set up in Canterbury a few years ago, called the Anglican Catholic Church - not in communion with Canterbury or Rome, but very high, Council of Trent style, I think (maybe Sarum, I'm not sure - but definitely high). The FCofE sounds a little bit like the low/BCP version.
The ACC is American in origin, and was one of the jurisdictions formed in the wake of the fission of the *original* Anglican Church in North America, c. 1978 or so. I have no idea how many parishes there are in the UK, but I believe it's Bishop Damien Mead who is in Canterbury. The ACC is split between Missal types and Prayer Book Catholics for the most part.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
So I suppose the official stance is that the CofE accepts the FCE as a 'Designated Church'
Exactly. That is a list of people the CofE has noticed are Trinitarian churches. And so, for example, recognises their baptisms, and invites their members to Communion (we're nice like that).
The list is here
It is not a list if denominations that the CofE is in full or partial communion with. (There is such a list there but the FCOE is not on it)
For example, the update to the list that includes the FCOE reads:
quote:
28 January 1992
The Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain (Greek Orthodox)
The Council of African and Afro-Caribbean churches
The Free Church of England
The Southam Road Evangelical Church,Banbury
The "designated church" bit refers to Canons B43 and B44
B43 basically says that a CofE incumbent is allowed to invite ministers of "designated churches" to occasionally preside at services in their church, or to preach, pr to lead the intercessions, or to distribute Communion, but that if they want them to do it regularly they must get written permission from the Bishop. It explicitly excludes them from presideing at a service of Holy Communion. There are also rules about CofE priests invited to do things in other churches. (B44 defines rules for "Local Ecumenical Partnerships" (LEP))
In other words the status is the same as a lay member of the Church of England. Our vicar can ask any lay member of the congregation to preach or lead a service (and often does) but if we want someone to do it regularly they need to be licensed by the Bishop (and the normal way to do that in the CofE is to appoint them as a Reader). So this is not the same as recognising the ordinations of those designated "churches".
quote:
...which means the bishops get invited to enthronements and some CofE bishops can be involved in consecrating FCE bishops.
No, it means that they invite them as neighbours and as witnesses. Just as they might invite you and me. It says nothing at all about whether the CofE recognises their bishops as bishops or whether those bishops would be asked to take part in ordinations or consecration.
That would require some declaration of full communion, or at least recognition of equivalent ministry. Those are quite separate questions. For example the CofE certainly recognises Orthodox and Roman Catholic bishops as bishops, and their priests as ordained priests, but Catholic bishops don't normally consecrate Anglican bishops or ordain Anglican priests. If they did, through some weird oversight on their part, presumably the CofE would regard the ordinations as valid but irregular. (And as the relationship is not reciprocal, if an Anglican-consecrated bishop ordained someone to be a priest in the Roman Catholic church, the Catholics would, I guess, think it both invalid and irregular)
However the CofE does not recognise the ordinations of the Methodists, or of the Church of Scotland. (Personally I wish it did, but it doesn't). So ministers of those churches, even if they were to be called Bishops (which some Methodists are, though not usually in England) or even if they were to be licensed ministers in a Church of England parish (which some Methodists are in England), don't get to preside over Communion, or to ordain, or consecrate, in the CofE. Yes its silly, and there really are LEP churches with combined Methodist and Anglican congregations where those members who think of themselves and Anglicans aren't supposed to take Communion at the services when the Methodist minister presides but are supposed to when the Anglican does - but thems the rules.
For what its worth, this is the list of churches that the CofE regards itself as in full communion with:
- The Anglican Communion (too many to list separately)
- The Church of Ceylon
- The Church of Bangladesh
- The Church of North India
- The Church of Pakistan
- The Church of South India
- Old Catholic Churches of the Union of Utrecht
- Philippine Independent Church
- Mar Thoma Syrian Church of Malabar
- The Evangelical-Lutheran Church of Finland
- The Evangelical-Lutheran Church of Iceland
- The Church of Norway
- The Church of Sweden
- The Estonian Evangelical-Lutheran Church
- The Evangelical-Lutheran Church of Lithuania
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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justlooking
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# 12079
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Posted
The point about the ordinations Ken is that this has apparently happened. At least this is what I understand from :
quote:
The Church has continued to ordain bishops in the apostolic succession, with Moravian, Church of England and Indian Orthodox bishops taking part on occasion.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
The point about the ordinations Ken is that this has apparently happened. At least this is what I understand from :
quote:
The Church has continued to ordain bishops in the apostolic succession, with Moravian, Church of England and Indian Orthodox bishops taking part on occasion.
You are misreading that rather blatantly I think.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Those bishops may be participating in a consecration, but that doesn't mean it's authorized by C of E canons.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
This entry in the 'Apostolic Succession' page of the FEC website refers to a CofE bishop.
quote:
36. ARTHUR WARD, BD ThB, DD, was consecrated by Bishops Milner, Cameron, Theophilus J. Herter, ThD, DD, Presiding Bishop of the Reformed Episcopal Church of America, the Right Revd Russell B. White, MA, Bishop of the Church of England, assisted by several Presbyters, at Christ Church Teddington, Middlesex, on 11 September 1976. Died 1995.
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FreeJack
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# 10612
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Posted
Christ Church, Exmouth (FCE) is slightly charismatic (New Wine style) rather than liturgical. Despite the denomination being officially BCP it is no more enforced in the FCE than the CofE!
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lutherkehrt:
P.S. For your information, I joined the FCE in 1998, but have never even heard of PD. He may or may not be happy to know that he didn't leave much of an impression!
I am very happy to know that I did not leave much of an impression. I had not yet matured as a Minister and still cared too much about many of the wrong things. Thankfully I preferred to keep myself to myself and firmly out of denominational politics. I had a very happy working relationship with Bishop Cyril Milner, and it all went south very rapidly after he died leading to my applying for and being granted letters dimissory to the Church of Ireland (Traditional Rite). I have some very happy memories of the old Northern Diocese folks like Bruce Burrows, but in truth, even if I had been desparate to make an impression, I was not around long enough to make much of one.
PD
[ 13. April 2012, 18:16: Message edited by: PD ]
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agingjb
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# 16555
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Posted
From 1945 to 1950 I was at school at Christchurch Primary School Teddington, which was adjacent to the Free Church of England Church (of the same name) - and attended the Sunday School there.
I was, of course, barely aware then that the church was any way different from the CofE church in Hampshire to which I was taken during holidays and which I attended after moving there in 1950.
I wish I could speak well of either the minister, or of the headmistress of the school (who may or may not have been of the same denomination).
I think that there have divisions since, so the church is in a different group (and the school has, I believe, moved).
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Refraction Villanelles
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
This entry in the 'Apostolic Succession' page of the FEC website refers to a CofE bishop.
No-one is disputing that the FCOE priests consider themselves to be in the Apostolic Succession or that the founders of that church were ordained by Anglican bishops.
The point I was making was that that does not mean that the Church of England recognises priests ordained within the FCOE as valid priests - as far as I know it has no official opinion oin the matter.
Nor does it mean that the CofE invites FCOE bishops to participate in sacramentally ordaining or consecrating CofE ministers. It doesn't, and it would be against its own rules if it did. As those canon laws and the list of "designated churches" makes clear.
It certainly invites FCOE ministers to be presents and to pray for the new bishops and so on, but that's on the same basis as it also invites Methodists or Baptists or Pentecostals. Its a sign that they are neighbours and friends and fellow-Christians - not that they are recognised as bishops or priests. Nor that they aren't recognised either - as I said the question of recognition of orders is not the same as the one of full communion.
It seems to me that the statement you quote4d are perhaps deliberately phrased in a way that might imply tht the CofE recognises FCOE as in communion with it when it in fact doesn't.
Not that it matters really. We don't recognise Methodist orders and we aren't in Communion with them but we work with them in all sorts of ways.
I'm not sure that this obsession with finicky legalistic definitions of apostolic succession is really very useful. Thoiugh it is one that seems to be shared by a lot of small groups and episcopi vagantes that broke away from the Anglican communion.
Its probably rude of me to say so but I'd not be surprised if the combination of Anglo-Catholicsim (which can get a bit obsessive atbout apostolic succession at times), and being in a small sect that wants to justify itself to the world and claim some authority, and perhaps the rather rigid legalism inherited from the old High Church prayerbook types. makes such groups very vulnerable to this...
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
I certainly wouldn't call the FCoE Anglo-Catholic, though some of them might be described as Old High Church prayer-book types. To me, they seem roughly analogous to the Reformed Episcopal Church (as it was pre-realignment); both groups formed in reaction to what they saw as "Romanizing" tendencies within their parent churches, and both have softened their stances somewhat since their founding.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
Christ Church, Exmouth (FCE) is slightly charismatic (New Wine style) rather than liturgical. Despite the denomination being officially BCP it is no more enforced in the FCE than the CofE!
Gosh, I walked past that church every Saturday to go to my piano lessons. My mother had a cleaning lady who was a member in the 60s because she found the Anglicans unfriendly.
But things move on.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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justlooking
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# 12079
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Posted
Ken - the entry refers to a CofE bishop as one of those consecrating a FCE bishop in 1978. It doesn't imply anything reciprocal but it does show at least one CofE bishop openly supporting FCE orders.
I find FCE quite intriguing. The split with EC was very bitter - there are documents detailing "dastardly" doings. It's like the CofE in miniature in some ways.
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Lutherkehrt
Apprentice
# 17058
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Posted
And, having realised it is so, why is this posting on the "purgatory" board? Are the FCE really thought of that badly... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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In Christ alone I find my hope
Posts: 2 | From: South West London | Registered: Apr 2012
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justlooking
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# 12079
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Posted
This is the board for serious discussion. FCE are thought worthy of such attention. Have a look at Hell - it's been harrowed recently but there's still enough there to give you an idea. And you're definitely not fluffy enough for Heaven. You're a cantankerous lot from what I've seen.
[ 14. April 2012, 10:38: Message edited by: justlooking ]
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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sebby
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# 15147
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Posted
I did know of a clergyman in the last decade who was FCOE and wished to be a cleric in the CofE. After a period of training he was (re) ordained deacon and then priest the next year.
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sebhyatt
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dj_ordinaire
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# 4643
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Posted
I had a friend who occasionally played organ for a branch of the FCE, in Balham I believe. It was by all accounts an 1830s sort of place - Laudian frontals were permitted but as others have noted they could not vary by the season (academic hoods in different colours were, however, allowed!).
From what I've heard, I doubt even a liturgy wonk like myself would notice I wasn't in a Prayer Book bastion of the C. of E. I am sorry to hear about their schisms as they had struck me as having their heads screwed on and having resisted the more fissiparous tendencies of the 'Continuum'.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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justlooking
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# 12079
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Posted
Interesting you should mention the hoods dj_ordinaire, some of them also like to collect lots of different letters after their names. If you poke around following links they lead to some not very well known degree awarding bodies. I know of someone who obtained a PhD from a body connected to FCE. Mainly for the hood I think.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I suppose its just possible that some might be ex-Catholic priests.
The Presiding Bishop of the Evangelical Connexion, no less (details in pdf).
[ 15. April 2012, 00:42: Message edited by: LQ ]
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
Interesting you should mention the hoods dj_ordinaire, some of them also like to collect lots of different letters after their names. If you poke around following links they lead to some not very well known degree awarding bodies. I know of someone who obtained a PhD from a body connected to FCE. Mainly for the hood I think.
It seems to be an affliction fairly common to a certain type of Protestant. I guess that when one's emphasis is on a learned preaching ministry, and you have not quite got the kidneys to make it elsewhere, non-accredited denominational theological colleges can supply the neccessary letters after the name.
On the other hand, some non-accredited religious institutions are quite good - i.e. of the same quality as accredited schools. I noticed a long time ago that my particular denomination has a Canon which requires clergy moving in from somewhere else to prove their academic worth by taking an abridged Canonical Examination. It is also presumed that you should have a degree in order to be ordained, or if one comes in under "the old men's Canon" then one must have the appropriate qualifications to enter university. That said, some of the best preachers I have heard have been "black hoods."
PD
[ 15. April 2012, 04:07: Message edited by: PD ]
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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justlooking
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# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
It seems to be an affliction fairly common to a certain type of Protestant. I guess that when one's emphasis is on a learned preaching ministry, and you have not quite got the kidneys to make it elsewhere, non-accredited denominational theological colleges can supply the neccessary letters after the name....
I can understand that. However some in FCE and others of 'a certain type of Protestant' seem to want quantity. They may already have one or two degrees gained in the usual way from accredited establishments but then pile on more from the non-accredited. I suspect the opportunity to swank around in fancy hoods is a motivating factor.
There are hood anoraks
quote:
Free Church of England Bishops' hood Full shape scarlet cloth, fully lined with a pink shot-silk. (This supplements the information on page 38 of the fifth edition of the 'HoodBook' which incorrectly gives details of the FCE Presbyters' hood - this should read 'cowl bound three inches inside and outside with blue silk and the cape edged with ˝inch of blue silk'. The pink lining is correct.)
An innocent enough hobby. Weird but innocent.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
Interesting you should mention the hoods dj_ordinaire, some of them also like to collect lots of different letters after their names. If you poke around following links they lead to some not very well known degree awarding bodies. I know of someone who obtained a PhD from a body connected to FCE. Mainly for the hood I think.
The Archbishop of Canterbury has the power to award degrees, but where does the FCE claim to get this power from?
Are there University Vice-Chancellors vagantes out there?
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Wyclif
Apprentice
# 5391
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Posted
quote:
36. ARTHUR WARD, BD ThB, DD, was consecrated by Bishops Milner, Cameron, Theophilus J. Herter, ThD, DD, Presiding Bishop of the Reformed Episcopal Church of America, the Right Revd Russell B. White, MA, Bishop of the Church of England, assisted by several Presbyters, at Christ Church Teddington, Middlesex, on 11 September 1976. Died 1995.
Theophilus Herter, ThD was a Bishop of the REC USA, and used to teach for many years at the original REC Seminary in W. Philadelphia on Chestnut Street. I actually own part of his library which was broken up and sold when he passed-- his bookplates are still on the inside covers!
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Posts: 36 | From: Safely in Lutterworth | Registered: Jan 2004
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Wyclif
Apprentice
# 5391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
That said, some of the best preachers I have heard have been "black hoods."
PD, by "black hoods" do you mean the scarf only?
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Posts: 36 | From: Safely in Lutterworth | Registered: Jan 2004
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justlooking
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# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
Interesting you should mention the hoods dj_ordinaire, some of them also like to collect lots of different letters after their names. If you poke around following links they lead to some not very well known degree awarding bodies. I know of someone who obtained a PhD from a body connected to FCE. Mainly for the hood I think.
The Archbishop of Canterbury has the power to award degrees, but where does the FCE claim to get this power from?
It's not directly from the FCE but there's a lot of cross-pollination going on with these small protestant churches and the kind of academic establishments which are outside the usual accreditation schemes. So ministers of these churches will be listed on the staff and governing bodies of degree-awarding colleges. At least three FCE ministers are on the staff of one particular institution, based in Arizona. They provide accreditation for each other. They seem to be largely distance-learning programmes and can be run as one-man-band operations. Nothing illegal about them.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wyclif:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
That said, some of the best preachers I have heard have been "black hoods."
PD, by "black hoods" do you mean the scarf only?
I think anyone can wear a plain black hood - it's a 'scholar's hood'.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I had a friend who occasionally played organ for a branch of the FCE, in Balham I believe.
Yes, there is, or was, such a church in Balham. I bumped into the minister thereof once, at the Crem: he was perfectly pleasant but gave the impression (presumably intended) of being the sort of preacher with whom it was dangerous to to trifle.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
There's an FCE congregation in the same town as my church. We have invited them to events but have never met them. I suspect our doctrines and worship are not to their taste, which is fair enough. We don't really know much about them other than that they're there but I thought it noteworthy due to the small number of their parishes in existence.
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Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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justlooking
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# 12079
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Posted
If you look at the map on their website it looks like 6 of the 16 churches are in Lancashire. Not sure what that says about Lancashire.
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otyetsfoma
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# 12898
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Posted
Lancashire historicaly has a fairly high proportion of RCs: protestantism in and out of the CofE flourishes where the RCs abound.
Posts: 842 | From: Edgware UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by otyetsfoma:
Lancashire historicaly has a fairly high proportion of RCs: protestantism in and out of the CofE flourishes where the RCs abound.
Like an opposition perhaps.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Wyclif
Apprentice
# 5391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
quote:
Originally posted by Wyclif:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
That said, some of the best preachers I have heard have been "black hoods."
PD, by "black hoods" do you mean the scarf only?
I think anyone can wear a plain black hood - it's a 'scholar's hood'.
With the proliferation of academic degrees in the modern age, I don't think it's possible to obtain a plain black hood anymore. At least I've never seen one, have you?
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Posts: 36 | From: Safely in Lutterworth | Registered: Jan 2004
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wyclif:
With the proliferation of academic degrees in the modern age, I don't think it's possible to obtain a plain black hood anymore. At least I've never seen one, have you?
I've never seen one being worn and I can't think why anyone would bother. This is one Literate's hood from the Burgon Society.
There are hoods just for belonging to some institutions and of course the kind of 'academic' institution that can be run from a back bedroom by one person and a computer will have a colourful hood for their graduates.
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