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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Church of England and the Free Church of England
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Wyclif
Apprentice
# 5391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
quote:
Originally posted by Wyclif:
With the proliferation of academic degrees in the modern age, I don't think it's possible to obtain a plain black hood anymore. At least I've never seen one, have you?
I've never seen one being worn and I can't think why anyone would bother. This is one Literate's hood from the Burgon Society.
There are hoods just for belonging to some institutions and of course the kind of 'academic' institution that can be run from a back bedroom by one person and a computer will have a colourful hood for their graduates.
Thanks for the link, that is exactly what I was looking for by way of illustration. Here's an interesting cached article I found on the Burgon Society site titled: "Who May Wear the 'Literate's Hood'?" wherein we read:
"For those clergy who were not members of a university, the ‘decent tippett’ was prescribed. This was, I think, a garment of dignity, marking their status as Clerks in Holy Orders, rather than an indication that they had studied privately; other clergy wore their hoods primarily as marks ofdignity, not to ‘parade their learning’. Again, during the nineteenth century, there is a change ofperception, and the ‘tippett’, by now a hood4, has come to mark study completed, and non-graduateclergy who attended a theological college wear distinctive hoods."
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No trees were harmed in creating this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Posts: 36 | From: Safely in Lutterworth | Registered: Jan 2004
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Calleva Atrebatum:
Hadn't heard of these guys, but it reminded me of a little church which set up in Canterbury a few years ago, called the Anglican Catholic Church - not in communion with Canterbury or Rome, but very high, Council of Trent style, I think (maybe Sarum, I'm not sure - but definitely high). The FCofE sounds a little bit like the low/BCP version.
The ACC came out of the 1970s Continuing Church Movement, which was phase two even for the Continuing Anglicans. They wobble quite a long way to the high side. The old Anglican Church of North America, which is not to be confused with Bo Duncan's version, was formed in 1977 at the St Louis Congress of Concerned Churchmen. Unfortunately, it was a hastily cobbled together body and tensions rapidly emerged between those who wanted to be a conservative version of the Episcopal Church, and those who wanted root and branch reform. The older fault line between High and Low got in there somewhere too. As a result of too much politics and not enough prayer and dialogue the old ACNA fragmented, and the ACC is the largest of those fragments. It tends to be High Church, and it completely reworked its Constitution and Canons in 1977-83. I hope Bishop Damien does not mind, but the ACC Diocese of the UK is one of the most consistently Anglo-Catholic in the ACC.
The FCE is far older having its roots in the Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion, which started back in the 1750s, and the session of various Evangelical Anglican clergy over Ritualism in the 1840s and 50s. The Deed Poll that marked the creation of the FCE as a separate entity associated with the Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion dates from 1863, whilst the two oldest congregations date back to the 1840s. They had their problems in the 19th century with a rather lengthy dispute between the 'Methodist' and 'Episcopal' factions, which was helped on by the unfortunate coincidence of the REC deciding to set up in England, and the erratic genius of Thomas H. Gregg. At one time the FCE constituency was split into three - the Free Church of England (1863, but with older congregations); the Reformed Episcopal Church of the United Kingdom (formed 1877) and the Reformed Church of England (formed 1878). Essentially, the RCE was a split from the REC-UK, which in turn took some of its ministers from the FCE. In the 1880s the Reformed C of E was the liveliest of the three, thanks to Gregg, but when he suffered a nervous breakdown in 1891 he did not have a competant successor and his son brokered their merging back into the REC-UK in 1892.
The FCE peaked in the late 1930s with a 48 congregations and three dioceses. Like the Methodists, they did not do well in the 1950s and 60s as many of their local congregations were too fragile to survive the cold winds of secularization.
Hope this helps.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
I ahve worshipped several times with Bishop Damien Mead of the ACC, th first time about 11 years ago, when he was just a priest, in Rochester. Several years later, I caught up with him in Canterbury, when I worshipped there there 2 or 3 times. The ACC is definately high up the candle. It has Cranmer 1549 as authorised canon, but they usually worship to the English Missal. For me, that is a dream combination! Also, they take the sacraments very seriously. Personal preparation for communion, something I strongly believe in, is emphasised, and the spirituality of the Christian life is taught and practised. Bishop Damien is a fine priest.
So why didn't I join? It's quite hard to take seriously a church which probably has less than 100 members in the UK. The whole fragmented nature of Continuing Anglicanism is typically Protestant. If you offend me in your church, I'll start my own down the road! The ACC claims that, by going back to the Seven Ecumenical Councils, it is both a Western Orthodox Church and an independent Catholic Church. Unfortunately nobody else sees it that way. Their orders and therefore their sacraments are recognised by no one but themselves. I have a great deal of sympathy with the Anglican Continuum.
Many Anglicans, troubled by how the goalposts have been moved so far from the churches in which they grew up, nevertheless don't want to join Rome. So to form a continuing church, which in the case of the ACC, represents the highest end of Anglo-Catholic worship as it was both in the Episcopal Church of the USA and in the Church of England, is quite logical. But where can it lead? There has been no sign of growth in the last decade for the ACC in the UK. It is a tiny unrecognised church, likely to fizzle out. At least if the Ordinariate goes the same way, it will blend in to the world's largest Church.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
With my Central Churchmanship background the ACC gives me problems from a different angle as high altitude training was not part of the confirmation class in my home parish. I gave it a go in the ACC in the UK and found it wayu too Catholic for me so I moved to the Free Church of England and later to the Church of Ireland (Traditional Rite) where my preference for BCP liturgy in a straight glass could not get me into any trouble. When I moved over here I sideways slid from CI(TR) into the ACA, but I ran into the bigotted end of Anglo-Catholicism again.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
PD
[ 18. April 2012, 00:10: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
but I ran into the bigotted end of Anglo-Catholicism again.
What do you call the "bigotted end" of Anglo-Catholicism?
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
To be honest Paul, bigots exist in every religious tradition, I just feel it more when it comes from Anglo-Catholics where it seems to thrive iamong a subset of the 'gin, lace, and backbiting' crowd.
With my own background as a catholic-leaning Central Churchman I have found it painful to experience the strange brand of intolerance meeted out to those who disagree with the party line. Bishop Hamlett was very rigid, but you could survive if you kept out of his way until he started using spies. My parting from him came when he asked me to spy on other clergy in the diocese to make sure that they were towing the line on ceremonial.
However, my worst experience with the 'bigotted end' was in the TAC. Basically, the Hepworth-Moyer set would not brook any open opposition to the Ordinariate proposal. As a result, if you did not tow the line you were subject to dirty tricks - especially if your parish was able to pay its clergyman. The favourite was to acuse a priest of fiddling his expenses - which is almost impossible to prove due to sloppy accounting procedures, suspend him, and then pressure his parish to fire him whilst he is suspended.
I am really glad to be away from that sort of environment now.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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otyetsfoma
Shipmate
# 12898
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Posted
Regarding the CofE and the FCE orders: I was told by the late Dr Paul Faunch that he had been accepted by the Cof E in the orders he received from the FCE. Did I misunderstand him?
Posts: 842 | From: Edgware UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
No, I remember him saying the precisely the same thing to me. I have a suspicion that at the time he moved from the FCE to the C of E, the latter did not then have a church-wide policy on such things, so it would have been up to the Diocesan Bishop.
I would summize that he ran into a sympathetic bishop, who decided that a priest, is a priest, is a priest. As the FCE's bishops are well enough documented and their ordinal close enough to the C of E's for Homer to nod. The C of E can be remarkably inconsistent in its attitude to episcopal orders conferred outside the Anglican Communion.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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SFG
Apprentice
# 17081
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Posted
Can I ask about the lay people of the FCE?
Are there familes who have been FCE for generations and know no other, or are the laity disaffected CofE types? Or maybe a combination of both.
I raise this because it may be an indicator of the future of the denomination. I suspect the principles on which they were formed may no longer be so relevant, or at least seem not to be so relevant to the modern generation.
[ 18. May 2012, 21:31: Message edited by: SFG ]
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A new member hoping to get it right!
Posts: 33 | Registered: Apr 2012
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
Conservative evangelicals in the CofE fall into two groups: ones who break away to form their own little sect, like this lot, or who continually threaten to if they don't get their own way, and ones who accuse liberals of being schismatics!
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
Posts: 439 | From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts | Registered: May 2012
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
Conservative evangelicals in the CofE fall into two groups: ones who break away to form their own little sect, like this lot, or who continually threaten to if they don't get their own way, and ones who accuse liberals of being schismatics!
You missed out the vast majority who do neither.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
Conservative evangelicals in the CofE fall into two groups: ones who break away to form their own little sect, like this lot, or who continually threaten to if they don't get their own way, and ones who accuse liberals of being schismatics!
You missed out the vast majority who do neither.
If I ever meet one, I'll let you know.
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
Posts: 439 | From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts | Registered: May 2012
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
Conservative evangelicals in the CofE fall into two groups: ones who break away to form their own little sect, like this lot, or who continually threaten to if they don't get their own way, and ones who accuse liberals of being schismatics!
You missed out the vast majority who do neither.
If I ever meet one, I'll let you know.
I'm not an Evangelical, but you really don't know what you are talking about.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
If I were an evangelical, I'd be greatly insulted by Steve H's ignorant comment. As I'm not, please allow me to feel insulted on their behalf.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
OK, ok, so I was over-generalising: they do have a strong tendency to fall into one of those two groups, though, and they can be bloody rude about us liberals, too. Also, note that I was talking about conservative anglican evangelicals in the C, not evangellycules in general.
[ 21. May 2012, 16:25: Message edited by: Steve H ]
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
Posts: 439 | From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts | Registered: May 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I suppose if you define conservative evangelical tightly enough you might just have a point. But I don't know if many people would want to be labelled in such a restricting way. I know many 'conservative catholics' who come out with some surprisingly liberal statements at times.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
This just goes to show that there are many different and overlapping churches within Anglicanism. And that the word 'evangelical' is effectively useless as a description of people.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
And that the word 'evangelical' is effectively useless as a description of people.
Well, exactly.
And evangellycule is even more useless, as well as being somewhat dodgy here.
Steve H, you might benefit from reflecting on the implications of Commandment 1 for certain types of posting idiosyncracies on the serious discussion boards. Rulings on that are, of course a matter for Admin, so this is a well-meant Hostly nudge.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Hosts
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Meanwhile, on today's Ship Two Minute Hate, a self-defined "liberal" picks on evangelicals and fundamentalists yet again. What a surprise.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
Conservative evangelicals in the CofE fall into two groups: ones who break away to form their own little sect, like this lot,
Another pathetic little sect with a vastly inflated sense of its own importance.
SteveH - maybe you can explain to us what this mirthful posting of links to other churches is all about? And just for the record, I don't think the ACC counts as evangelical anyway. They may be minute in the UK but have had a more substantial presence in the USA for longer, from whence they came.
If you head over to Anglicans Online, you'll find an entire section on churches not in communion - including the continuum of which this church is a member. Though not recommended if you are going to suffer an attack of apoplectic hilarity.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Ah well, gentle hints clearly don't do it.
Host Hat On
Steve H
I'm reporting you to Ship of Fools Admin for them to consider the Commandment 1 (and maybe other) implications of your posting habits.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
Host Hat Off
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
It was interesting having a bit of a look at all the Anglican Churches not in communion with Canterbury. To my untrained eye they seem to be quite a range of beliefs - I particularly like the sound of the Christ the King Graceland independent Anglican Church of Canada with their minister Elvis Priestly. Not all are Evangelical by any means.
It doesn't appear that there are many cross-overs with the official Canterbury Anglican churches - though some seem to have indirect links, such as the CESA which has links to the Sydney Diocese.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Ah well, gentle hints clearly don't do it.
Host Hat On
Steve H
I'm reporting you to Ship of Fools Admin for them to consider the Commandment 1 (and maybe other) implications of your posting habits.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
Host Hat Off
That's your privilege, of course, but I don't think I've been racist, sexist, any other ist, or trolled or flame-baited. Just a bit blunt, that's all, but so are many others on this forum.
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
Posts: 439 | From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts | Registered: May 2012
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
Steve H
May I remind you that you have been given a second chance by being allowed back on board. Don't blow it.
Spike
SoF Admin
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
OK. Noted.
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
Posts: 439 | From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts | Registered: May 2012
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
Conservative evangelicals in the CofE fall into two groups: ones who break away to form their own little sect, like this lot,
Another pathetic little sect with a vastly inflated sense of its own importance.
SteveH - maybe you can explain to us what this mirthful posting of links to other churches is all about? And just for the record, I don't think the ACC counts as evangelical anyway. They may be minute in the UK but have had a more substantial presence in the USA for longer, from whence they came.
If you head over to Anglicans Online, you'll find an entire section on churches not in communion - including the continuum of which this church is a member. Though not recommended if you are going to suffer an attack of apoplectic hilarity.
The ACC tends to Low ball its numbers, but the total in the Original Province - USA, UK, South Sundan, Central Africa, South Africa, and Australia is in the somewhere around 40,000, with the bulk of those in central Africa and South Sudan. ACC Province 2 - India and Pakistan probably has between 50,000 and 60,000 according to their respective annual reports. These are Communicant numbers by the way, which is a more realistic number than baptized.
The numbers in the UK are miniscule but they have shown increases at the last three Provincial Synods - 2007, 2009 and 2011 - not bad for a jurisdiction that was bishopless for over ten years, and had unfortunate godparents.
PD
[ 23. May 2012, 21:34: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
Included in a list on this site which gives details of churches in which only psalms and not 'man made' hymns are sung is 'Bolton Reformed Anglican Church'. Most of the places listed are Wee Frees, ultra conservative places in Ulster and the like. A quick internet search produces no meaningful results for the place in Bolton. There is a local press report of a recent fire at the derelict 'former United Reformed Anglican Church in Beta Street, Bolton'. This curious ecclesiastical beast looks to be a chimaera produced by a reporter who is vaguely aware of the CoE and the URC and has somehow conflated the two.
That aside, can anyone offer any further information on the 'Reformed Anglican Church'? Anything to do with the Free CoE? Metrical psalms and no hymns would have be the norm in the CoE until the early 19th century - could the place in Bolton be (or have been) a curious survival of that era, a lonely fossil?
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
That webpage appears last to have been updated on 22 March 1999.
I've long dreamt of finding some CofE congregation that still used Tate & Brady or even Sternhold & Hopkins, but alas, I don't think such exists. They'd have had real difficulty replacing their books when they wore out. As far as I know, the only reissue of either in the last 150 years was a photocopy of a C17 text of Sternhold & Hopkins with music by the West Gallery Music Association less than 20 years ago.
I suspect if any were to have got away with it, they'd have to have been a proprietary chapel, with the ability to hire a priest and then tell him or her what to do. Does any shipmate know if any such still exist?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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