|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Questions about the Ordinariate
|
Aggie
Ship's cat
# 4385
|
Posted
Quite a few people, including the Vicar at the church I used to attend have joined the Ordinariate, and were recently received into the Catholic church. (The RC church is situated just across the road from the Anglican one). Over the Good Friday-Easter weekend my mum and I had lunch at the home of a friend of mine who attends my former church (he hasn't joined the Ordinariate), and his other guest was another person also from my former church who has just joined it.
She told me that at the moment the Ordinariate group attend one of the main Sunday Masses at the RC church, and their style of worship is very different to what she is used to: modern language, west-facing priest, girl-servers etc, but "very soon" they would have their own Mass, and the Vicar would be "deaconed and priested in the Roman Catholic church", and so these former Anglicans would then "do all the things that they were used to including using the English Missal as the liturgy for Mass." My former church is stratospherically high Anglo-Catholic: English Missal, east-facing, maniples, birettas, deacon and sub-deacon, all-male Altar party, lots and lots of smoke and lace etc.
I don't know much about the Ordinariate, as I missed most of the discussions about it that took place on the Ship last year due to studying (it was the final year of my OU degree), so please forgive me if this is a repetition, and if this topic has been discussed and answered before. However, several things that this lady said puzzled me, and I am sure they were incorrect:
1 Is it normal practice for an Ordinariate group to have their "own Mass" even after they have been officially received into the RC Church? Surely, this will create a "church within a church" situation??
2 Is an Anglican vicar "automatically" deaconed/ordained priest in the RC church upon joining the Ordinariate, and being received into the RC Church?
3 The lady at my friend's lunch party claimed that when Father is ordained priest, he will be able to say Mass in any RC church anywhere in the world, but yet the RC Parish priest cannot celebrate Mass for the Ordinariate group. Is this true? If so, why is it so, now that the Ordinariate group has been received into the Catholic Church?
4 I always thought that Ordinariate groups were permitted to use liturgy officially approved by the Church of England such as the BCP, correct me if I am wrong, but the English Missal has never been officially approved?
5 If it is the usual practice of this particular RC church to have Masses celebrated by west-facing priests, girls as well as boys serving at the Altar, won't the Ordinariate group be forced to conform to this? They are after all effectively newcomers to their host church. The lady I was speaking to thinks the Catholic clergy will make an exception for the Ordinariate group.
--------------------
“I see his blood upon the rose
And in the stars the glory of his eyes,
His body gleams amid eternal snows,
His tears fall from the skies.”
(Joseph Mary Plunkett 1887-1917)
Posts: 581 | From: A crazy, crazy world | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
I'm sure others will be better qualified to answer your questions, but my reaction (to this and other similar observations) is that it just shows what a strange and unreal bubble the sort of traditionalist anglo-catholic likely to join the ordinariate exists in. Most (Roman) Catholics are as bewildered as most Anglicans at the phenomenon (if not more so). But I am sure they will be generous hosts, and maybe the ordinariate members will lose their spiky (in both senses) edges and assimilate pretty quickly.
I'm sure it is not automatic that anglican clergy will be accepted for ordination by the RCC. Many, maybe most, are, but by no means all.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
|
Posted
It's sort of a church within a church, similar to a religious order. A priest duly ordained is a priest anywhere and always within the communion in question. The English Missal is, in its controversial bits, is simply a translation of the RC Tridentine rite, now I reckon authorised once again by Rome.
What is curious about the Ordinariate is that it cannot possibly continue beyond a generation or 2. From where, ultimately, will it be fed? Any married priests will have to have been Anglican priests first. There will come a point when ex-Anglicans, and those who know the patrimony, will dry-up.
--------------------
"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
chive
Ship's nude
# 208
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:
1 Is it normal practice for an Ordinariate group to have their "own Mass" even after they have been officially received into the RC Church? Surely, this will create a "church within a church" situation??
In our Ordinariate group we join with the rest of the church for Sunday mass and have an Ordinariate mass on a Tuesday night.
2 Is an Anglican vicar "automatically" deaconed/ordained priest in the RC church upon joining the Ordinariate, and being received into the RC Church?
No, priests are not automatically ordained. They have to go through quite a complex and deep psychological testing thing before its even considered. One of our priests has been ordained (and is going to take over as parish priest for the main congregation when the current pp retires) and the other chose not to go for ordination. I've no idea why, I've never asked him.
3 The lady at my friend's lunch party claimed that when Father is ordained priest, he will be able to say Mass in any RC church anywhere in the world, but yet the RC Parish priest cannot celebrate Mass for the Ordinariate group. Is this true? If so, why is it so, now that the Ordinariate group has been received into the Catholic Church?
Our priest, as I said, is taking over as parish priest for the main congregation in a couple of months. When he is unable to do the Ordinariate mass for whatever reason it's done by one of the other priests attached to the congregation. The Ordinariate is part of the Catholic church and therefore any priest can do an Ordinariate mass.
4 I always thought that Ordinariate groups were permitted to use liturgy officially approved by the Church of England such as the BCP, correct me if I am wrong, but the English Missal has never been officially approved?
We always used the Roman Missal when we were part of the CoE so nothings changed. I hope that regular BCP evensong and benediction will be introduced at some point because I really miss it.
5 If it is the usual practice of this particular RC church to have Masses celebrated by west-facing priests, girls as well as boys serving at the Altar, won't the Ordinariate group be forced to conform to this? They are after all effectively newcomers to their host church. The lady I was speaking to thinks the Catholic clergy will make an exception for the Ordinariate group.
We have conformed to the current practices of the church which our group is a part of. Joining the Ordinariate means becoming part of the wider Catholic church. I do miss aspects of the slightly higher worship at my old church but as I usually attended the eight o'clock spoken mass it's not a huge difference. There are cultural differences that have had a degree of dissonance for me but after a year I'm getting used to them and they're not really part of worship, just part of general Catholic culture.
--------------------
'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
Hi Aggie. IANAMotO, but allow me quickly to attampt an answer to your questions according to my understanding.
quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:
1 Is it normal practice for an Ordinariate group to have their "own Mass" even after they have been officially received into the RC Church? Surely, this will create a "church within a church" situation??
It's kind of intended that there should be a church within a church situation, specifically in terms of pastoral oversight and the rite used - like there is for Eastern Catholics, say. The idea is to keep (some of) the distinctive traditions and existing communities of converts together, with their own clergy.
quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:
2 Is an Anglican vicar "automatically" deaconed/ordained priest in the RC church upon joining the Ordinariate, and being received into the RC Church?
No. Anyone seeking orders must submit a portofolio application to the Ordinary who then sends it on to Rome for approval. Approval has been withheld for some of those applying.
quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:
3 The lady at my friend's lunch party claimed that when Father is ordained priest, he will be able to say Mass in any RC church anywhere in the world, but yet the RC Parish priest cannot celebrate Mass for the Ordinariate group. Is this true? If so, why is it so, now that the Ordinariate group has been received into the Catholic Church?
Any Catholic priest of any rite or community can celebrate a Mass for any other, given the proper authority from the relevant ecclesiarch. But there may be a requirement to use a specific rite, different from the one they are used to, and existing Catholic priests may not have permission from their own bishops to celebrate any rite not already authorised by them. The Ordinariate rite has yet to be formulated and apporved, so what Ordinariate folks are getting at the moment will be versions of the existing Roman rite (which most of them were using beforehand anyway), in either "form" (i.e., novus ordo or usus antiquior). Ordinariate priests are currently saying many Masses for existing non-Ordinarite Catholic communities, and there's some reciprocation, I think. Any Catholic may attend and assist thereat.
quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:
4 I always thought that Ordinariate groups were permitted to use liturgy officially approved by the Church of England such as the BCP, correct me if I am wrong, but the English Missal has never been officially approved?
No, that's not right. - neither the BCP nor Common Worship is an authorised liturgy for any Catholic priest, Ordinariate or otherwise. They may not be used. The English Missal is pretty much a straight translation of the old rite Roman Mass (which in Latin is authorised for current use) into English (I used it to follow the Easter Vigil in the old rite on Saturday at my old rite Mass), but it is not explicitly authorised as far as I'm aware, though I think it would be wonderfully appropriate if it were. Some leeway in the meantime might be thought beneficial - not my call though.
quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:
5 If it is the usual practice of this particular RC church to have Masses celebrated by west-facing priests, girls as well as boys serving at the Altar, won't the Ordinariate group be forced to conform to this? They are after all effectively newcomers to their host church. The lady I was speaking to thinks the Catholic clergy will make an exception for the Ordinariate group.
There may well be specific rules and guidelines forthcoming that regulate the Ordinariate masses, but as things stand neither westward facing Masses not the use of women servers is compulsory at any Catholic Mass - in fact, the latter is merely permitted whereas the service of men and boys at the altar cannot be forbidden and is explicitly encouraged in the regulatory documents (because it helps foster vocations to the priesthood, amongst other things). Adopting the eastward position for celebrating Mass is also never forbidden and the current pontiff himself explicitly argued for it in preference to the versus populum position in his The Spirit of the Liturgy and has on many occasions celebrated this way himself.
Will that do for now?
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Aggie
Ship's cat
# 4385
|
Posted
Thank you for your replies so far. I too like Vaticanchic wonder about the future of the Ordinariate. I can quite foresee that a time will come when the RCC will increasingly push Ordinariate groups into integrating and amalgamating with their "host" churches and congregations.
--------------------
“I see his blood upon the rose
And in the stars the glory of his eyes,
His body gleams amid eternal snows,
His tears fall from the skies.”
(Joseph Mary Plunkett 1887-1917)
Posts: 581 | From: A crazy, crazy world | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
That is not what the Pope or the foundational documents envisage, Aggie - but it does seem to be what some of the Catholic bishops of England and Wales are working towards. I, personally, think it has legs.
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
|
Posted
How? Apart from the odd posh undergraduate seeking high mass?
--------------------
"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Aggie
Ship's cat
# 4385
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
That is not what the Pope or the foundational documents envisage, Aggie - but it does seem to be what some of the Catholic bishops of England and Wales are working towards. I, personally, think it has legs.
If that is the case, then, I don't think some of "spiky" people in the Ordinariate group will be very happy. Is there provision for "dissappointed" Ordinariate members to return to the CofE? I am not being facetious here - people do change their minds, or find that the "grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence"
That is not to say that I hope it fails. On the contrary, I do genuinely wish those in that group, and any Shipmates who have joined the Ordinariate well.
--------------------
“I see his blood upon the rose
And in the stars the glory of his eyes,
His body gleams amid eternal snows,
His tears fall from the skies.”
(Joseph Mary Plunkett 1887-1917)
Posts: 581 | From: A crazy, crazy world | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
To Vaticanchic: By allowing already flourishing and well-established ways of "doing" liturgy in a particular way to continue amongst those who brought them with them.
The High Mass at my old anglo-cath-shack was the best celebrated Mass (if Mass it were) of any, Catholic or Anglican, in my old home town. It was not all posh university types either - but so what if some of our crowd were of that sort? English Missal High Mass and BCP Evensong & Benediction with Anglican musical "patrimony" - that's distinctive and worth preserving, it seems to me. And to the Pope, moreover.
[ 11. April 2012, 16:06: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
That is not what the Pope or the foundational documents envisage, Aggie - but it does seem to be what some of the Catholic bishops of England and Wales are working towards. I, personally, think it has legs.
If that is the case, then, I don't think some of "spiky" people in the Ordinariate group will be very happy. Is there provision for "dissappointed" Ordinariate members to return to the CofE?
Provision by whom? The Catholic Church can't stop reverts. Layfolk who change their minds can just return to their old parishes and renounce their conversion, I suppose. Clergy may apply to get another parish in the C of E, but there won't be any guarantee of that. I honestly cannot see this happening in any but a very few cases.
quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:
I am not being facetious here - people do change their minds, or find that the "grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence"
Sure. But I'd like to think and have some reason to believe that most people have been converting to be communion with the Holy See, not merely to keep on doing what they always have under different colours. Time will tell, of course.
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:
Is there provision for "dissappointed" Ordinariate members to return to the CofE?
The doors of the parish churches are open. We welcome anyone baptised in a Christian church to Communion. Even if they are members of another denomination, and "just visiting".
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
|
Posted
In this city there are two Ordinariate bound congos one of which has already been received. Of the two rectors, one has been accepted for ordination and other rejected.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
The future of the ordinariate is an intriguing issue. Given no changes over the next few decades, it may well wind itself into the greater church of which it is a part.
But it's rather unrealistic to expect no further developments within the CofE during that period. None of us have any idea what they might be, but there is surely scope for plenty of things. They may upset evangelicals more, in which case that won't so much be an issue that swells the ordinariate numbers. But if it destabilizes either the more catholic end or indeed the centreists, it might see more substantial numbers leaving for the ordinariate.
Last time we discussed this about a year ago, I said that it would hinge more upon what we as Anglicans do in the future rather than what Rome does. I see no reason to change my mind yet.
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
That is not what the Pope or the foundational documents envisage, Aggie - but it does seem to be what some of the Catholic bishops of England and Wales are working towards. I, personally, think it has legs.
If that is the case, then, I don't think some of "spiky" people in the Ordinariate group will be very happy. Is there provision for "dissappointed" Ordinariate members to return to the CofE?
Provision by whom? The Catholic Church can't stop reverts. Layfolk who change their minds can just return to their old parishes and renounce their conversion, I suppose. Clergy may apply to get another parish in the C of E, but there won't be any guarantee of that. I honestly cannot see this happening in any but a very few cases.
quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:
I am not being facetious here - people do change their minds, or find that the "grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence"
Sure. But I'd like to think and have some reason to believe that most people have been converting to be communion with the Holy See, not merely to keep on doing what they always have under different colours. Time will tell, of course.
Yes, but where will they come from now? Anglo-Catholics are able to be a little more accommodating than Rome ...
--------------------
"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chive
I hope that regular BCP evensong and benediction will be introduced at some point because I really miss it.
Sorry to disappoint but there is no such thing as 'regular BCP benediction', or for that matter a CW version. It would be difficult to reconcile it with Article 28.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
Yes, but where will they come from now?
What Honest Ron said above.
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
Anglo-Catholics are able to be a little more accommodating than Rome ...
Meaning what in this context?
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
|
Posted
Meaning there is a world of difference, despite what I was always encouraged to think, between the free glories of ACism and the sober delineations of Rome. Indeed the time has come to draw lines, perhaps.
I know AC congregations and people - for many, there are reasons why they are not RCs. Some with less interesting lives will "go with Father" to the Ordinariate.
My assertion is that those who are attracted and absorbed into AC churches, through love, grace or whatever means, will continue to do just that. The Ordinariate is now something else. Who will feed it? Not the same people.
How can there be more than this generation of children brought up in the Ordinariate? Clergy boys might well begin to wonder why they cannot do as their fathers do. In any case, in time it will need to integrate with the English hierarchy. I cannot see anything other than an interim measure here.
--------------------
"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
How can there be more than this generation of children brought up in the Ordinariate? Clergy boys might well begin to wonder why they cannot do as their fathers do. In any case, in time it will need to integrate with the English hierarchy. I cannot see anything other than an interim measure here.
And I fully expect most US bishops to do whatever they can to sabotage it. Which, considering the way the Ordinariate has been set up, may not be much--but still.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
A few points:
1. With regards to the BCP question; the Book of Divine Worship (based on the 1979 Episcopalian BCP) used by existing Anglican Use parishes in the US has been approved for use by Ordinariate congregations by Msgr Newton. Fr Redvers-Harris, priest in charge of the Isle of Wight & Portsmouth Ordinariate group currently uses it. As and aside the BDW is currently being revised along the lines of the 1929 Scottish BCP. Another Missal, rather than BCP, based liturgy is being compiled by Msgr Burnham and Fr Aidan Nichols OP, among others, and is rumoured to have significant amounts Sarum incorporated into it.
Interestingly the Canadian groups entering the North American Ordinariate seem to have provisional permission to continue using their own liturgical books based on the 1962 Canadian BCP with a few alterations such as the insertion of the Roman Canon.
2. With regards to where future Ordinariate numbers will come from for them to remain viable, there will probably always be a certain amount of converts but I'd have thought it would have dawned on people that Ordinariate congregations are expected to have children...
3. The celibacy or otherwise of future generations of Ordinariate clergy has absolutely no bearing on the future viability of the Ordinariates. Frankly that is a bizarre issue to raise; certain of the Eastern Catholic Churches switched to compulsory celibacy over time, one as recently as the first half of the 20th Century IIRC. Their viability has not been affected.
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
How can there be more than this generation of children brought up in the Ordinariate? Clergy boys might well begin to wonder why they cannot do as their fathers do. In any case, in time it will need to integrate with the English hierarchy. I cannot see anything other than an interim measure here.
And I fully expect most US bishops to do whatever they can to sabotage it. Which, considering the way the Ordinariate has been set up, may not be much--but still.
I fear that my Canadian sources are not in agreement. Perhaps encouraged by how eastern rite churches have worked but in any case not threatened by the convert crew, they do not seem to be undermining them. The norms document, in any case, provides an opening for a case-by-case continuation of the priestly ordination of married men. Whether or not that happens is yet to be seen.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
In the "olden days" before the Ordinariate, I used to hear it said that those few Episcopal churches that had swum the Tiber would be required to give up their BCP/BDW ways when the Episcopal-convert priest finally retired, passed away, or left that church.
Nowadays, it sounds like there will be more convert-priests available, and that provision will be made for perpetuating the ordinariate priesthood.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
Whatever rite they may use, it is very possible that the relative regard for "decently and in order" likely to prevail in an Ordinariate parish will attract other Roman Catholics.
Aren't Roman Catholics still supposed to attend the parish within whose boundaries they live? Hereabouts, however, my immediate supervisor at work (among others) go to the Norbertine abbey some fifteen miles away, in a neighboring suburb, because the strumming and shambling in all the local parishes are offensive to them. If there were an ordinariate parish nearby, it would be another viable alternative.
--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
|
Posted
What happens if an entire anglican community decides to convert to the ordinariate: the church buildings become empty and the congregation moves to the next Roman Catholic building in the area? Or the congregation actually owns the building, and it becomes a Roman Catholic Church?
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
What happens if an entire anglican community decides to convert to the ordinariate: the church buildings become empty and the congregation moves to the next Roman Catholic building in the area? Or the congregation actually owns the building, and it becomes a Roman Catholic Church?
Generally speaking, they leave the building behind, as it belongs to the Anglican diocese which they are leaving (a recent exception in Calgary, I believe). They then move to a nearby Latin parish where they are provided with temporary accommodation until such time as they can obtain their own building, should their numbers justify their own facility.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
What happens if an entire anglican community decides to convert to the ordinariate: the church buildings become empty and the congregation moves to the next Roman Catholic building in the area? Or the congregation actually owns the building, and it becomes a Roman Catholic Church?
Generally speaking, they leave the building behind, as it belongs to the Anglican diocese which they are leaving (a recent exception in Calgary, I believe). They then move to a nearby Latin parish where they are provided with temporary accommodation until such time as they can obtain their own building, should their numbers justify their own facility.
A good deal of the Continuing groups entering the Ordinariates will bring their own buildings. Also one of the Anglican Use societies (which includes current RCs, Episcopalians and Continuers) in the US has agreed the purchase of a church from the RC Bishop of Scranton including a rectory, a closed school and convent.
With regards to Anglican Communion groups/parishes besides Calgary other exceptions are the former TEC parishes of St. Luke's, Bladenburg and Mount Calvary, Baltimore. Both agreed leases with their local Episcopalian bishops.
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
What is curious about the Ordinariate is that it cannot possibly continue beyond a generation or 2. From where, ultimately, will it be fed? Any married priests will have to have been Anglican priests first. There will come a point when ex-Anglicans, and those who know the patrimony, will dry-up.
I'm not sure that any of these assertions is necessarily true.
The Ordinariate may wither or be absorbed into territorial dioceses and parishes, it may even by likely, although there is no reason for that to be inevitable. There have always been a significant number of converts from Anglicanism (and, before the inevitable 'two-way street' comment is made, I know that Catholics swim the Tiber in the other direction too). It seems likely that, once Ordinariate communities are settled and established, some of those converts will choose that route if for no other reason that the parish culture/community dynamic will feel more comfortable.
It is not true that any married priests will have had to be Anglican priests first. In ten days time Deacon Daniel Lloyd will be ordained priest at St Patrick's, Soho Square for service in the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham. He is married and was not an Anglican priest. He had been ordained a deacon and was destined for priesthood but the point remains. Being ordained with him is Deacon James Bradley who, although unmarried, was never in Anglican orders of any kind - his ordination was not conditional upon his being unmarried at the point of his ordination to the diaconate. He will, however, remain a celibate having made the promise so to do at his diaconal ordination. There are a number of other lay members of the OoOLW who are married and who are being considered for ordination. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - the Vatican dicastery overseeing the Ordinariate - has made it clear that it will deal with these cases on a case-by-case basis.
Finally, it depends in what you think the patrimony consists. Liturgy is certainly a part of this. This extends to a certain care in liturgical praxis that is unusual (although by no means entirely absent) in most Latin rite parishes, together with a tradition of hymn singing and choral music that is distinctive. Considerable progress has already and is being made regarding the non-Eucharistic rites, but that is by no means the end of it. A certain attitude to the wider community, which I guess stems from the CofE's unique position in England, is felt by many to be part of it. The notion, within English Catholicism, that the priest is really the chaplain to the Catholic community leads to a definite insularity. The Ordinariate clergy don't seem to see themselves in that light. The formal participation of the laity in the structures of governance in a determinative way (rather than in the purely consultative way permitted within the Latin Rite canonical scheme) is specifically provided for in the Apostolic Constitution and the complementary norms and looks to me as if it is part of 'patrimony'.
--------------------
ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
It all shows what a shame it is that these priests feel they have to leave the Anglican church at all. Those of us who value the catholic contribution to church life see it as part of the inevitable one-way progression of the Anglican church towards the evangelical end of the spectrum. In other words, the Anglican church is losing its wide base of churchmanship, little by little. And the wide base is very valuable, providing balance when some of the weirder and madder ideas come along, as they do from time to time.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
As long as the CofE remains the state church, or even if it is transitioned to the status of the national church along CofS lines, I don't think any faction will definitively and permanently take over or even establish lasting hegemony. I would base this on the fluctuating churchmanships and theologies of the CofE to date, from the mid-C16 to the present.
OTOH, should the CofE be totally disestablished in every way and become just another denomination amongst many, I would then think it could gradually become a niche church with only a few local exceptions departing from its (evangelical?)norm. This prediction might be supported by the evolution of non-established diaspora Anglican churches such as the Epicopal Church (USA), which largely has a particular MOTR-High house style with a relatively small number of evangelical, old style low church, and advanced Anglo-Catholic parishes along the peripheries. One should also bear in mind that the present homogenous style took a couple of hundred years to evolve and is still in process to some degree.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
|
Posted
Trisagion (and others), is it the case though that non-Ordinariate Catholics don't have a route to becoming Ordinariate Catholics? If that's not the case, how likely is it that the movement will occur in significant numbers? If converting Anglicans have a choice of going to the Ordinariate or not then assuming nothing happens to precipitate a huge Tiber-swimming exercise, doesn't the long-term viability of the Ordinariate depend largely on having some movement from (for want of a better term) mainstream Catholic congregations?
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
Trisagion (and others), is it the case though that non-Ordinariate Catholics don't have a route to becoming Ordinariate Catholics? If that's not the case, how likely is it that the movement will occur in significant numbers? If converting Anglicans have a choice of going to the Ordinariate or not then assuming nothing happens to precipitate a huge Tiber-swimming exercise, doesn't the long-term viability of the Ordinariate depend largely on having some movement from (for want of a better term) mainstream Catholic congregations?
Former Anglican who are already "diocesan Catholics", for want of a better term, are entitled to join the Ordinariate. While cradle Catholics are ordinarily precluded from joining, provision exists for allowing it under the Complimentary Norms accompanying Anglicanorum coetibus, specifically family members previously baptised Catholics outside of the Ordinariate.
All that said nothing stops cradle Catholics attending Ordinariate churches as their primary place of worship. It happens all the time in other contexts, e.g. attending Dominican or Norbertine churches, or Eastern Catholic churches.
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
|
Posted
The CofE will gladly welcome them back any time. There is an informal rite which we use for those joining us from other denominations...
--------------------
Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
How can there be more than this generation of children brought up in the Ordinariate? Clergy boys might well begin to wonder why they cannot do as their fathers do. In any case, in time it will need to integrate with the English hierarchy. I cannot see anything other than an interim measure here.
And I fully expect most US bishops to do whatever they can to sabotage it. Which, considering the way the Ordinariate has been set up, may not be much--but still.
I fear that my Canadian sources are not in agreement. Perhaps encouraged by how eastern rite churches have worked but in any case not threatened by the convert crew, they do not seem to be undermining them. The norms document, in any case, provides an opening for a case-by-case continuation of the priestly ordination of married men. Whether or not that happens is yet to be seen.
I'm cautiously glad to hear that, Augustine. Thanks for the input.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
It all shows what a shame it is that these priests feel they have to leave the Anglican church at all. Those of us who value the catholic contribution to church life see it as part of the inevitable one-way progression of the Anglican church towards the evangelical end of the spectrum. In other words, the Anglican church is losing its wide base of churchmanship, little by little. And the wide base is very valuable, providing balance when some of the weirder and madder ideas come along, as they do from time to time.
I agree that it's a shame, but you must realize that most of them are either from continuing jurisdictions or members of Forward in Faith & the like. These are typically people with a very high ecclesiology, and if they take that ecclesiology seriously, they simply cannot remain in communion with people who deny basic dogmas of the Christian faith. WO, of course, is an issue as well, especially when it comes to the question of female bishops and whether their consecrations, or the ordinations they perform, are valid.
And although I agree that these people tend to balance out the lunatic fringe of what I might inaccurately refer to as "the left," they also tend to cause no little amount of trouble. There was a lot of moaning in TEC when +Iker, +Duncan et al. pulled up stakes, but I can't help thinking that +KJS was secretly relieved.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
These are typically people with a very high ecclesiology
I'm sure that once they have made the jump and joined the RCC their ecclesiology will be sorted out. But as long as they remain Anglicans but believe they can pick and choose their bishop, I can't see how you can describe their ecclesiology as 'high'.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
These are typically people with a very high ecclesiology
I'm sure that once they have made the jump and joined the RCC their ecclesiology will be sorted out. But as long as they remain Anglicans but believe they can pick and choose their bishop, I can't see how you can describe their ecclesiology as 'high'.
Good point, of course. You'd think they might have jumped ship earlier, if they really believed what they say they do...
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
|
Posted
quote:
But as long as they remain Anglicans but believe they can pick and choose their bishop, I can't see how you can describe their ecclesiology as 'high'.
I'm sure the vast majority of Anglicans in the world, all of whom apart from the C of E elect (i.e. 'pick and choose') their own Bishops, would find this a surprising statement.
[code]
[ 12. April 2012, 22:27: Message edited by: John Holding ]
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
quote:
But as long as they remain Anglicans but believe they can pick and choose their bishop, I can't see how you can describe their ecclesiology as 'high'.
I'm sure the vast majority of Anglicans in the world, all of whom apart from the C of E elect (i.e. 'pick and choose') their own Bishops, would find this a surprising statement.
I don't think that's what Angloid was referring to--I took him to mean Alternative Episcopal Oversight.
[ 12. April 2012, 22:28: Message edited by: John Holding ]
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
quote:
But as long as they remain Anglicans but believe they can pick and choose their bishop, I can't see how you can describe their ecclesiology as 'high'.
I'm sure the vast majority of Anglicans in the world, all of whom apart from the C of E elect (i.e. 'pick and choose') their own Bishops, would find this a surprising statement.
To clarify, I wasn't talking about the election of bishops, but the strange idea that you can be a member of the C of E but refuse to acknowledge your diocesan as your bishop.
[ 12. April 2012, 22:29: Message edited by: John Holding ]
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
You'd think they might have jumped ship earlier, if they really believed what they say they do...
There are, so I am told, some FiF Anglican parish priests in our neighbourhood who have for some time iintended to go over to Rome but decided to stay in their jobs until the normal retirement age out of a sense of duty to their parish. The principle being that they signed up - took oaths even - to the cure of souls of the whole parish, not just the few who support their stance on church politics and want to carry on doing that. None of them are exactly close friends of mine or told me about it so this is second-hand rumour, but it sounds plausible from what little I know of them.
At least one of them is still in post in a parish very near me and its no secret he itends to join the Ordinariate. Another retired, but apparently continued to provide pastoral care (including baptisms and funerals) to some of his ex-parishioners causing some embarrasment and difficulty to his successor.
Someone more cynical than me might accuse them of hanging on for the stipend and the pensions, but I think we ought to give them the benefit of the doubt.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
I'm sure the vast majority of Anglicans in the world, all of whom apart from the C of E elect (i.e. 'pick and choose') their own Bishops, would find this a surprising statement.
But if someone they dislike wins the election do they ignore them and bring another one in from elsewhere?
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
I'm sure the vast majority of Anglicans in the world, all of whom apart from the C of E elect (i.e. 'pick and choose') their own Bishops, would find this a surprising statement.
But if someone they dislike wins the election do they ignore them and bring another one in from elsewhere?
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
You'd think they might have jumped ship earlier, if they really believed what they say they do...
There are, so I am told, some FiF Anglican parish priests in our neighbourhood who have for some time iintended to go over to Rome but decided to stay in their jobs until the normal retirement age out of a sense of duty to their parish. The principle being that they signed up - took oaths even - to the cure of souls of the whole parish, not just the few who support their stance on church politics and want to carry on doing that. None of them are exactly close friends of mine or told me about it so this is second-hand rumour, but it sounds plausible from what little I know of them.
I can certainly understand that. Although I was hoping for a conclusion to your first sentence more along the lines of "I should have gone last Tuesday week, had not my wife objected."
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
These are typically people with a very high ecclesiology
I'm sure that once they have made the jump and joined the RCC their ecclesiology will be sorted out. But as long as they remain Anglicans but believe they can pick and choose their bishop, I can't see how you can describe their ecclesiology as 'high'.
As most of the Canadians (as well as US folks) entering the Ordinariate had already separated themselves from the Anglican Church of Canada (or the US counterpart), this hardly applies. Delegated oversight was available in some places but depended on diocesan authority, rather than that of the national church-- I would fault them for many things (list available upon application), but the separators were consistent in their ecclesiology.
The English situation with its many theoretical anomalies had many parents, to the point that I think it unfair to load the entire blame on one of the parents-- it was entirely consensual between all partners.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Pond differences again! Will I ever learn?
I didn't realise that the Ordinariate was operating in Canada and the USA too. How does it differ from the "Anglican Use Catholics", or have they merged?
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Pond differences again! Will I ever learn?
I didn't realise that the Ordinariate was operating in Canada and the USA too. How does it differ from the "Anglican Use Catholics", or have they merged?
If the merge hasn't already happened, it will in time. IIRC there were only 4-6 Anglican Use parishes in the USA anyway.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Pond differences again! Will I ever learn?
I didn't realise that the Ordinariate was operating in Canada and the USA too. How does it differ from the "Anglican Use Catholics", or have they merged?
Canada for the time being will be a deanery of the US Ordinariate. It will be called the Deanery of St. John the Baptist and will be established this Sunday coming.
As for the existing Anglican Use parishes they have to go through the canonical process of transferring jurisdiction which is a fairly tedious and time consuming affair; even the Ordinariate's "cathedral" Our Lady of Walsingham in Houston still hasn't formally entered the Ordinariate yet as far as I'm aware, though I'm open to correction on that.
[ 12. April 2012, 20:32: Message edited by: CL ]
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
CL reports: quote:
It will be called the Deanery of St. John the Baptist and will be established this Sunday coming.
This is interesting; S Anne is the patron of Canada for RCs, but S John the Baptist has long been the patron for Anglicans.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Pond differences again! Will I ever learn?
I didn't realise that the Ordinariate was operating in Canada and the USA too. How does it differ from the "Anglican Use Catholics", or have they merged?
Well, the pope established the rules to apply throughout the world, and its fairly well accepted that his primary target was not the CofE but the TAC's dioceses in Australia and, I think, India.
It is, if I may say so, not unusual (though not singling you out in particular, Angloid) for members of the CofE to believe that everything Anglican in the world is really just the CofE. Sooner or later the rest of us get used to it, and tend to ignore the CofE as a result. No doubt to our detriment.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
John - I think I'm right in saying that amongst those petitioning Rome for action was a contingent from FiF - UK. Rome's response was to more than one approach.
Whilst I'm sure you are correct about us CofE types and our reprehensible attitudes, I think it unfair to pin that one on Angloid in this instance - he was merely remarking that he had missed the erection of a new ordinariate in N. America - the first one (The Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham) having been established here over a year ago. The rules may apply worldwide but the resulting ordinariates are geographically based. At least as I understand it.
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
