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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Spring Harvest 2012 (and similar things)
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Jenn.
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# 5239
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Posted
I agree that they will only take you so far, but they are only meant to be a part of our Christian lives, and a very very optional one at that! I find SH helpful and enjoyable. I don't really see where the harm is?
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jenn.:
I agree that they will only take you so far, but they are only meant to be a part of our Christian lives, and a very very optional one at that! I find SH helpful and enjoyable. I don't really see where the harm is?
That some people park there for an extended stay and others are put off as they assume they've reached pinnacle and there is nowhere left to go.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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greenhouse
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# 4027
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ok, fair points, Greenhouse, but I still contend that it doesn't take very long to get to the 'bottom' of these events. They will only take you so far.
I'm sure they are not intended to take you any farther than they do. Its a few days, once a year.
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
That some people park there for an extended stay and others are put off as they assume they've reached pinnacle and there is nowhere left to go.
I really don't get this. The vast majority of people who attend such events are average Christians, who enjoy a holiday, worship, teaching, etc.
I quite accept that there are many who don't like the style or the substance of these conventions. Fair enough, they won't go, or they'll find something more to their taste. I am also aware that there are people who would unwisely try to incorporate elements of a Christian festival back into their home churches. But I think in these cases the issue lies with the people themselves, not the conventions they attend.
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Masha
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# 10098
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Posted
That's a very good point greenhouse. Perhaps the issue does lie with the people trying to live like that all the time, and their approach, rather than the event.
As I think about it the people I know who get a bit too 'into it' tend to be the people who are always after drama or the next high whether they're at a festival or not.
If one particular woman tells me about the demonic oppression she faces whilst trying to do her job as a Sunday School Teacher one more time I think I'll scream. But then she'll possibly think I'm possessed and dive on me to 'pray the demon away'.
You might be right there, is the short point!
[ 15. April 2012, 21:00: Message edited by: Masha ]
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
All Christian traditions have sensation-seekers. Tolstoy wrote about people in 19th century Russia who used to wander from monastery to monastery seeking out one more 'spiritual high' after the next, seeking out a 'staretz' here, a 'holy fool' there, this or that relic, that wonder-working icon ...
It's not limited to evangelicalism.
I'm not saying that there's anything 'wrong' with Spring Harvest or its ilk. Just that they aren't any big deal. They serve a purpose and aren't an end in themselves. But if I want a holiday, I want a holiday ... I no longer want to go and sit and listen to sermons and seminars all day long, irrespective of how good, bad or indifferent the content is.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Masha
Shipmate
# 10098
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Posted
Oh I know Gamaliel! I'm no evangelical basher.
It's not my tradition but it is the tradition I've spent most time around, and I've learnt much from being part of a different wing for a time. I love my evangelical parish, charismatic mates and clergy.
Because I spend most time there I guess that's just the thrill seeking I see most often.
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
I went to a couple of the New Frontiers conferences at Stoneleigh and, more recently, have been to 3-4 New Wine weeks. I can really see the benefits for people whose church is small or has few people either in your age range or with a similar theological / ecclesiological view to yourself.
But I think there's a real danger of getting hooked on the buzz of the annual conference, where perhaps thousands of Christians get together to live in a holy bubble for a few days. As others have already noted, that's not real life. Haven't we got to seek God and encourage one another in the journey of faith all year round, instead of waiting for the spiritual 'injection' at the conference week that will help us survive the dry, parched land of the other 51 weeks of the year?
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Pilavaci used to observe that after 3 days at Soul Survivor, the average attender smelled, at best, like a damp dog. Normally a one liner in his prophetic talk about Abba (those who have ears to hear will know what I'm talking about.)
I remember hearing that talk - I thought the Dancing Queen thing was a brilliant example of a little prophetic word bringing great joy and release to somebody.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Adrian Plass nailed it with his Let God Break Forth With Songs of Harvest Triumph or whatever-it-was, an accurate amalgam of every Christian festival that existed in the UK at the time.
If memory serves, I think it was 'Let God spring forth with royal acts of harvest growth'. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Saul the Apostle
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# 13808
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Posted
Yes, and watch out for cant (not Immanuel Cant by the way).
A classic bit of twaddle is in the other thread and the prophecy given by Gerald Coates in the mid 1990s - as one example of ''twaddle''.
There is, in the evangelical world, a little sub world, with ''stars'' and ''big speakers'' and all we're doing is aping the world's celebrity culture model.
Now I am not for one minute disrespecting Spring Harvest (I have attended a few times myself) . Indeed it is a useful way of bringing like minded believers together - but watch out for the evangelical stars in their eyes syndrome.
This was why I liked Lucas, who whilst becoming a 'celeb' himself has the ability to see through the hubris and shallowness of it all. His remark about himself being ''big in Butlin's for a week'' says it all really ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) If you take your position too seriously you become an arse and quite unbearable, plus you are not doing what Christ did, making yourself of no reputation, servant leadership etc etc etc.
Has anyone been to Keswick recently? That was THE conference to go to post war I believe?
Saul the Apostle
[ 16. April 2012, 05:53: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
Mrs B and I have been to SH a couple of times about 10 years ago. We keep talking about going to New Wine, if nothing else because a lot of our church go there and it's a chance to get to know them in a different setting. But I keep coming back to the same old objection: I only have a limited amount of leave and money and I want to use that all on a proper holiday, not the quasi-holiday represented by this sort of conference.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Me too, Matt ...
@Saul. We're going to be taking my mum-in-law up to the Lake District this summer for a family holiday with my wife's sister and her brood.
My mum-in-law's asking to be taken to The Keswick Convention for a day. I'll be interested to see how that goes.
I heard a service from there on Radio 4 relatively recently - still very conservative evangelical in tone but they use the same worship-songs and choruses now as the charismatic evangelicals, but alongside the more traditional hymns. There wouldn't be any 'liturgy' as such there, beyond the typical hymn-prayer-sandwich approach and I'd imagine that Spring Harvest is actually broader in scope ...
But we'll see.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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pete173
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# 4622
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Posted
Interesting thread. I've kept out of it thus far, as I obviously have an interest (I chair the Board of the charitable company that runs Spring Harvest and the Theme Group that devises the programme).
I think I'd make several observations:
1. There are an awful lot of people commenting on SH who haven't been within the last 5-10 years. We've made a shift of emphasis over that time, and I think some of the comments about hype etc. are redolent of an ethos we no longer inhabit.
2. We're the only event in the UK (to my knowledge) that produce our own syllabus of teaching each year, precisely because we want our guests to focus on specific issues in order to "equip the Church for action". This year it was Church Actually, and it was inspiring to see guests grappling with how to love the Church and to seek afresh a good eccelsiology.
3. We're one of the few events that has no "network" per se. We seek to be there for the whole Church, whereas New Wine is a network based movement. Our guests are 50% CofE, and about 30% Baptists, with the rest being varieties of non-conformists. The ethos is obviously at the evangelical end of the spectrum, but we draw on a tradition of "generous orthodoxy". We've been helped by having Tom Wright, Richard Bauckham and other theologians among our speakers. Our aim is not to duck the major theological issues that confront the Church and to help our guests engage with them.
4. We have some clear values, based on a desire to help Christians be authentic, thinking, missional and charismatic.
5. Yes, Butlins is pricey these days. But there's no where else in the UK where you can get that number of people together and not camping!(6000 - 7000 per week) As someone mentioned, we provide a bursary fund for those who find the cost steep.
6. You need to recall that the people we're most valued by are people in small to medium sized churches who find that the experience of SH inspires and teaches them and gives them good ideas for growing and resourcing their churches - and that our children and young peoples' work gives their kids a great time and the experience of not being "the only Christian young person in the village".
[ 16. April 2012, 13:19: Message edited by: pete173 ]
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Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jenn.:
I don't really see where the harm is?
I should imagine that the larger festivals, which attract people from differing backgrounds, and also are able to invite big name speakers from differing backgrounds, are much less likely to be harmful than little niche celebrations which are not observed or contributed to by outside discernment.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
My family and I have been to Spring Harvest for the last four years, and have consistently enjoyed and benefitted from it. Particular good points are:
1. Teaching material is always thoughtfully and thoroughly prepared.
2. Speakers are consistently good quality. Quite apart from the content (which is almost always worthwhile and often superb) talks and seminars are technically very good - well prepared, researched and presented.
3. A variety of backgrounds and points of view are represented - and although that variety is largely from the evangelical end of church life, the speakers are well informed enough to know that this is not the whole of Christian tradition. in fact, the two times that I've heard a speaker (Russell Rook, a Salvationist, both times if memory serves) explicitly assume that the audience held evangelical views, it was for the purpose of challenging the limitations of those views and suggesting that we could learn from other traditions.
4. Butlins' facilities are great for kids. (Although I may be biassed here, as the highlight of this years SH for me was finishing ahead of Mrs Eliab on the go-karts after a daring overtaking move on the final lap).
5. The children's sessions and all-age worship is about as good as it could be. It would be very easy for SH to treat the children's groups as a creche, keeping the kids occupied while the parents attend their sessions. They don't. A great deal of work goes into giving the children good quality teaching as well as fun. My two were counting the days to Spring Harvest for two weeks this year.
6. The perspective is very much for intelligent Christianity. There have been some very good open discussions about controversial issues that go well beyond "the Bible says" in looking for answers (though not so much this year as previously). Although evangelical Christianity is the home tradition, a sympathetic liberal would find very little that they could not engage with profitably.
I don't get much of a charismatic emphasis. There was a session on receiving the Holy Spirit this year (I didn't go, but Mrs Eliab, who is not especially charismatic, found interesting) but I don't remember much of that in other years.
The price is comparable with what you'd pay for an ordinary holiday with similar facilities, I think. There's an opportunity cost, as there is for any holiday, but I don't think it's over priced.
+Pete's last point is spot on. Spring Harvest is one week in the year where being a Christian is normal, not out of the ordinary, and I think that's a valuable experience for my children.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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Pottage
Shipmate
# 9529
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
6. You need to recall that the people we're most valued by are people in small to medium sized churches who find that the experience of SH inspires and teaches them and gives them good ideas for growing and resourcing their churches - and that our children and young peoples' work gives their kids a great time and the experience of not being "the only Christian young person in the village".
I think that's very true. The children from our church party are all accustomed to being the only Christian in the class most of the time. One of the reasons we return regularly is the pressure from them to re-book as soon as the lines open again in June. It always takes us ages to round them all up on the final day and extract them from the little huddles of kids exchanging mobile numbers.
Posts: 701 | From: middle England | Registered: May 2005
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
My husband and I plan to regularly attend one of the big conferences when our children are big enough to enjoy them. We are from a v small church and i know that they will be encouraged by encountering Christianity on a larger scale.
Before the children we went to New Word Alive (the first one after the Steve Chalke PSA debacle with Spring Harvest). We thoroughly enjoyed the fellowship with other Christians, and hearing John Piper's sermons on suffering changed my life. Since then, children were born and all we've managed is a weekend in Eastbourne aimed at worship leaders (as we are). I found this to be tremendously uplifting, followed by a massive spiritual slump that has taken me months to emerge from. Whilst on our high last year, we rebooked for this year and I am apprehensive about returning, given the bashing my faith suffered afterwards.
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Do you think, Angelfish, that the spiritual slump was a direct corollary of the uplift of that conference? A kind of big dipper effect?
@Pete173, I think if I were to resume attending any of these conventions and shindigs it would be Spring Harvest rather than the others, with Greenbelt running quite closely too. I'm not dissing them (at least I hope that's not how it's coming across) but I don't particularly feel attracted towards any of them ... perhaps I've been around the block too many times ...
I'm sure they do a good job and have their place, but I'm wary of New Wine and the more charismatic festivals ... at least there is a balance at SH as you say ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
I think it's quite important to re-evaluate both what we expect from these things, what they expect to provide, and what it's reasonable to expect in both directions. I'll freely admit that for a long time my expectations of Spring Harvest were actually pretty immature. But at a tender age, with no chance of being exposed to anything like it anywhere else, it pretty much met them (to its credit!).
It occurred to me recently that when I returned somewhat older, and broader (in many ways!) one thing I hadn't broadened was my approach to SH, so I found it very easy to get cynical about the whole thing. Returning again last year, even older still, I was only really just beginning to shift my perception of the whole thing. So I went cynical but also determined to find value. And I did find a lot of value. And if I go again, I think I'll be less cynical because I've come to realise that my cynicism was at least in part due to me foisting on to SH things that were facile, unreasonable, and unfair. And it's easy to avoid the bits that punch my buttons whilst going to the bits that don't. Mostly ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Bizarrely (?) as a yoof I attended both SH and Greenbelt every year, with great joy and gusto - I don't see them as exclusive, just different things for different purposes.
I can't answer for angelfish, obviously, but I've been to the worship conference at Eastbourne a couple of times too (assuming we're talking mission:worship). The first time I went I hadn't been to anything 'big' for years, and I expected to hate the together times but get value out of the seminars, because I was a bitter cynical old git. God had slightly better ideas I came away buzzing from the whole thing, but for the first time ever buzzing with a way to take some of the good stuff back in a manner that would work when translated to a local church context. And it did, albeit with slog and effort and not on the grand scale one would have liked.
I went back the next year, and found it a much harder experience. It was too much the same, both in delivery and content. It was still good, but I'd dived in and been immersed in the refreshing stuff and (at that point) didn't need it again. I think it's fair to say that mission:worship is very much a 'resourcing' event, and probably best gone to every three or four years so that the programme will roll over, and as a leader you'll be ready for a good fillip again.
I do know that one reason I didn't "crash" after my first visit was because whilst I came away fired up, I'd also been around the loop enough times to be aware of the road ahead. And I didn't so much as have a mountain-top experience has get a much-needed clip around the ear with accompanying light-bulb moment.
Maybe with all these things it's an age thing - the years get shorter as we get older, so we need bigger gaps in attending this kind of conference/event/festival/thingy in order to really get (and give) the most ...
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
I do know that one reason I didn't "crash" after my first visit was because whilst I came away fired up, I'd also been around the loop enough times to be aware of the road ahead. And I didn't so much as have a mountain-top experience has get a much-needed clip around the ear with accompanying light-bulb moment.
I don't think I ever crashed as such - except maybe after my first visit to Spring Harvest. However, having done a whole bunch of different festivals over the years (Royal Week, SH, Faith, Soul Survivor, Grapevine, Greenbelt) I'd have to think long and hard to find anything particular I learnt from any one of them if I were to be honest.
In fact, many of the things that I thought were deeply profound at the time, were things that I subsequently found to be either transient, fairly jejune or flat out wrong. The charo festivals would seem to fall most often into the latter two categories. So from my point of view the danger would be that had things gone differently I might well have concluded from the experience/post experience that it had all been just a phase. In fact I know plenty of people who have done just that.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
quote:
I don't think I ever crashed as such - except maybe after my first visit to Spring Harvest.
The closest I came was probably in my late teens. The contrast between regular church and SH, particularly where the music was concerned, was vast, and at that time the more contemporary style of SH was what 'worked' (ugh) for me. So there was a kind of emotional/spiritual high following a (real!) week of go-for-it sung worship and can-do faith stuff, only to come back to the organ struggling to crank out Shine Jesus Shine in an attempt to accomodate the yoof.
Fortunately I was sufficiently mentally agile to know that was going to be the case, and deal with it, albeit grudgingly.
Now that I'm an old git, I've got my mechanisms to try and find a 'way in' whatever the style, so instead tend to find myself hanging back a bit from the full-on emotional stadium singing bits (British Reserve) and connecting in other ways*. Hence attending with cynicism, rather than coming back with it
quote:
However, having done a whole bunch of different festivals over the years (Royal Week, SH, Faith, Soul Survivor, Grapevine, Greenbelt) I'd have to think long and hard to find anything particular I learnt from any one of them if I were to be honest.
Likewise**. Not that I ever went to Greenbelt expecting to learn anything; I went to it for the 'secular' Christian music, and the overall experience and exposure to new stuff. However, what I do think I got from all of them wasn't specific learning, but boosts, refreshing, challenges, revitalising and prods along the way. A lot like church really, just a bit more intense and in a setting that is Other which perhaps makes it easier for God to prod my backside with his toe.
Which really comes down to what the big value to me of such things is now: a chance to consciously take yourself out of the every day and do something, anything, that's more deliberately immersed in the God-thing. Even if it's just sitting around talking with friends about why you're not going to any of the seminars.
As far as Spring Harvest is concerned, if you're experience dates from 10-20 years ago, it's definitely a different beast. Last year (at the one I attended) the morning teaching was straight forward, clear, and not afraid to pop the bubbles of some long held evangelical myths and sacred cows. The sung worship was well and sensitively led, if you're into that kind of thing. And the 'official' views, as in what was said from the front, and in seminars, were definitely surprising (in a good way) to me, who had naively assumed it was all still going to be a largely con-evo agenda. I had to stand down a whole heap of righteous indignation, it was most inconvenient ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
*Note, this is massive shorthand for stuff I'm not even sure I could begin to express. It's neither as arrogant or as shallow as it could sound, honest!
**Actually, that's not true. One thing stuck with me from the teens slot at SH in the mid-80s, which was when I learnt that just because you're a big name and respected on the circuit, it doesn't mean you can't be a totally idiotic prick giving out bad advice from a stage. But the rest of it was good, and that's not a bad thing to learn, so the person concerned still served me well ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
[QUOTE]
Likewise**. Not that I ever went to Greenbelt expecting to learn anything; I went to it for the 'secular' Christian music, and the overall experience and exposure to new stuff. However, what I do think I got from all of them wasn't specific learning, but boosts, refreshing, challenges, revitalising and prods along the way
Yeah, I do think greenbelt tended to suffer less from the downsides - though at least half of the times I went there I was working there, so generally just came home with a feeling of exhaustion.
Though to be honest, I didn't feel any particular long term boost from any of them - it was more like taking a spiritual glucouse tablet.
The last couple of years I've been going to a couple of retreat houses which are less focused on the event as they are opened all the year around. I generally find that the actual experience doesn't feel that 'spiritual' - but I'm usually left with huge amounts of food for thought *after* the event.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
We haven't been to Spring Harvest for the past two years but prior to that we did about eight years on the trot: we went with friends who had children the same ages as ours and that was key for us. We all had a great time and loved the mix of things you can do. In seminars, always a very mixed experience, we employed the "duck'n'dive" technique. Sit on the end of a row and look slightly uneasy. If the session turns out to be good, relax and enjoy. If it turns out you want to escape, pull out your mobile phone, glance at it, look shocked and dash out in a hurry.
We're part of a very lively church and never regarded Spring Harvest as a yearly pep-up to get us through 51 weeks of spiritual aridity; it was just interesting to hear all sorts of different teaching. Tony Campolo and Roger Forster were particular highlights for Mr Nen.
Nendaughter got married at Easter and we did suggest to her and her husband that they had their honeymoon at Butlins but it didn't seem to appeal. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Pilavaci used to observe that after 3 days at Soul Survivor, the average attender smelled, at best, like a damp dog. Normally a one liner in his prophetic talk about Abba (those who have ears to hear will know what I'm talking about.)
I remember hearing that talk - I thought the Dancing Queen thing was a brilliant example of a little prophetic word bringing great joy and release to somebody.
Funny you should say that. Even back then, I found it trite and unconvincing, and suspected that the story had been embellished dramatically. It stuck in my mind, but not in a good way.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I was put off Spring Harvest for life, back in the days when I thought I was going out with a guy. He went and said they had that year different streams which were according to intellect were marked by newspapers. According to him the intelligent option was The Express.
For someone who would place herself somewhere around The Independent or The Guardian but if the truth were known was still mourning the demise of the pre Murdoch Times (which is what I grew up with and really had a certain style of writing), it was a complete turn off.
Now I am not saying this really happened. I should not have trusted his word then, and I am not going to do so now, but it did make me think I was not in the target audience.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Pottage
Shipmate
# 9529
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
we employed the "duck'n'dive" technique. Sit on the end of a row and look slightly uneasy. If the session turns out to be good, relax and enjoy. If it turns out you want to escape, pull out your mobile phone, glance at it, look shocked and dash out in a hurry.
A classic technique which I can confirm also works where you are confidently expecting sound teaching (from a purple-shirted shipmate for instance) but by unhappy chance someone you know to be barking mad suddenly sits beside you. All SH meetings involve a minimum of three occasions when you will be called upon to "turn to the person next to you and discuss" whatever wisdom has just been imparted. It's the law I think. But if the person next to you is the barmy woman you vaguely know from home and whom you've been avoiding all week that prospect might be more than you can face!
In a refinement of the Text Crisis Gambit you can compound the sin by coming back into the session a few minutes later with the manner of one who has successfully averted a catastrophe. The session has by then just begun and so, considerately, you sit somewhere near the door so as not to disturb anyone.
All the seminars are recorded anyway, so if you've missed something you wish you'd gone to you can always buy the disk. Had to do that for the final session of +Pete's zone on Saturday actually because it clashed with a seminar being delivered by ESPN in the sports bar.
Posts: 701 | From: middle England | Registered: May 2005
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Jengie Jon wrote:
quote:
He went and said they had that year different streams which were according to intellect were marked by newspapers. According to him the intelligent option was The Express.
I think that was quite a while ago? It certainly sounds familiar for a year that I went, and I'm reasonably confident in saying that he mis-represented it somewhat.
One of the things I've always liked about Spring Harvest is that they do try and cater for different styles/expressions (within limits). So in addition to age-based stuff there will be different ways on offer to engage with the common topic of the morning 'study' or teaching passage. IME these range from the very touchy-feely creative all the way through to fairly traditional lecture/preach, with various stops inbetween. I think they're more explicit with the naming now, but back in the day there was a kind of pop-culture reference point, and I remember a year where it was newspapers. I have to say I thought it was a Times or Telegraph for the trad academic side, Grauniad for something a bit more activist, and one of the tabloids for a more all muck in and be experiential vibe. But it's a while ago so I could be wrong. I'd be surprised if the Express was even on the list
Which doesn't mean it's something you'd enjoy, but it does sound like you were possibly sold a skewed viewpoint :/
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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The Weeder
Shipmate
# 11321
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Posted
I have no recollection of the Express being on the list! The Intelligent choice was indeed the Grauniad.
I think that was the most stimulating Spring Harvest I attended.
May be I should try it again next year.
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Still missing the gator
Posts: 2542 | From: LaLa Land | Registered: Apr 2006
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I was put off Spring Harvest for life, back in the days when I thought I was going out with a guy. He went and said they had that year different streams which were according to intellect were marked by newspapers. According to him the intelligent option was The Express.
I remember a newspaper themed year 1994 IIRC. The group of sessions we went to was The Independent. Naturally, I would like to think that was the intelligent option I don't recall what the others were. We did try a group of sessions for leaders, but found there was too much "we leaders" this and "we leaders" that to stomach and didn't last past the first session
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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greenhouse
Shipmate
# 4027
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
In seminars, always a very mixed experience, we employed the "duck'n'dive" technique. Sit on the end of a row and look slightly uneasy. If the session turns out to be good, relax and enjoy. If it turns out you want to escape, pull out your mobile phone, glance at it, look shocked and dash out in a hurry.
Worryingly, along with those others on this thread, I too employ the same technique. Which leads me to wonder if everyone in the seminar knows exactly what I'm doing, as they all do it too...
Posts: 94 | From: North West | Registered: Jan 2003
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
Yes, we did abolish the stupid newspaper streams a very long time ago now. Rather a lot of living in the past on this thread!
The zones are now focussed on preferred learning styles - Think, Create, Do, etc.
The newspaper thing was objectionable not merely because of its use of Murdoch rags, but also because the "popular" stream was that of the obnoxious Daily Mail. ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif) But please judge SH by where we are now, not our mistakes of 15/20 years ago.
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Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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trouty
Shipmate
# 13497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Weeder:
I have no recollection of the Express being on the list! The Intelligent choice was indeed the Grauniad.
I think that was the most stimulating Spring Harvest I attended.
May be I should try it again next year.
I'd have said that the Guardian was the smug,self-satisfied option myself. But I don't go to these sort of things anyway.
Posts: 205 | From: Somewhere out there | Registered: Mar 2008
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
My biggest concern with any sort of gathering of scale, be it Greenbelt, New Wine, or a major Pilgrimage is the effect it has has when people return. At the end of Greenbelt last year there were plenty of comments overheard along the line of 'If only church was like this - this is my home'. I feel for the congregations folks return to!
Such concentrations of excited, committed people do give us permission to encounter God in new ways. I have had as many spiritual experiences the two times I have been to Greenbelt as I have had at more charismatic conferences. Such experiences may be emotional, they may be the still small voice. There is something positive about this openness, although it may be manipulated.
My experience over the last few years though has been shifting. I dislike talking about spiritual experience because the response is so often an attempt at competition. But I have met with God in remarkable ways in the most normal and unexpected of moments and liturgies, and have sought to encourage others to do so too.
You don't need a big top Mass or a worship chorus sung by thousands (good as they may be) to meet with God, it can be at 8.30am on a frozen December morning with 6 other people cradling their BCP's.
If we can return from the gathering of our choice, not with the desire to replicate the environment but rather maintaining the same openness to God then we are on the right track.
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blog//twitter//
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ianjmatt
Shipmate
# 5683
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Posted
SH has changed a lot in the last few years - the move towards an open evangelical, less charismatic, emphasis is all for the good. I was particularly impressed to see Andrew Marin (The 'Love is an Orientation' chap from Chicago). Although I would like to see more opportunity for sacramental and contemplative worship there - there does seem to be a depressing uniformity to that side of things.
I do agree with Edward though - there is an interesting Fresh Expressions experiment not far from us that is kind of 'Experiencing God through the sacraments with a few people around the dining table'. That is something I find very interesting, happens all year round and is far cheaper for a family than the Ł1000 plus for SH!!!
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You might want to visit my blog:
http://lostintheheartofsomewhere.blogspot.com
But maybe not
Posts: 676 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Mar 2004
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
And in NewWine now, there is a place where there are computers, we pay for (just a little to use for quite a while) and that's where it's possible to get on to ShipofFools, and I have to remember my log in number to post/reply something. Many people have mobiles they use - is that the main thing used on Spring Harvest and Greenbelt?
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Maybe sacramental Christians need to set up their own festival, rather than trying to move in on festivals that have a more charismatic flavour.
Maybe a yearly version of something a bit like Taize would meet the requirements of sacramental Christians. I enjoyed Taize very much on my visit. I think it's something that ex-charismatics would like.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not sure that 'sacramental Christians' form a sufficiently homogenous group to form their own Festivals, SvitlanaV2. I'm also not sure that they are 'moving in on' festivals like Spring Harvest, it could just be that some long-standing Spring Harvest types are moving more that way themselves because (and I don't mean to be patronising here) they have moved 'on' or away from their original ethos.
At the risk of patronising SH types, there's only so long you can go on singing choruses over and over again. You need some more breadth and depth eventually.
I suspect that this has happened to some extent at SH - as Bishop Pete has reminded us.
I'm less sure that it has at New Wine where (and correct me if I'm wrong) I detect among the leaders a certain embarrassment at matters sacramental ... as if they are embarrassed to a certain extent by their own Anglican tradition (those that come from within that tradition, that is). There are also Baptists and others involved with New Wine.
A British Taize might be a nice idea but I suspect that most 'sacramental Christians' either go on pilgrimages or small, intimate retreats of one form or other or to festivals like Greenbelt if they are quite arty.
I'm not sure if a Sacramental Harvest or an Old Wine has legs ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not sure that 'sacramental Christians' form a sufficiently homogenous group to form their own Festivals, SvitlanaV2.
Are 'sacramental Christians' less homogenous than the charismatic types that go to these festivals? If so, this is surely an argument against trying to move the festivals in a sacramental direction, because this will satisfy only a few people, but risk alienating many more.
quote:
A British Taize might be a nice idea but I suspect that most 'sacramental Christians' either go on pilgrimages or small, intimate retreats of one form or other or to festivals like Greenbelt if they are quite arty.
So, in effect, these different festivals and events might as well stay the way they are, because there's already enough variety to cater to different tastes and requirements.
Perhaps the thing to do is to go to a different one each time, so you don't get bored with a diet of choruses, or whatever. I don't suppose it's fair to expect a festival that specialises in modern choruses to start doing something else. It would be like going to Iona and complaining that they should include more gospel music!
Talking of Iona, has anyone on the Ship ever been there? Their music is occasionally sung in Methodist churches, and some women from Iona once came down my way to lead an interesting workshop. I hope to take a trip up to Iona one day.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
When I went to Iona the people you think of as the Iona Community weren't much in evidence - aren't they now mostly somewhere else?
Sacramental Harvest of Old Wine - yes that does have a certain ring to it....
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
When I went to Iona the people you think of as the Iona Community weren't much in evidence - aren't they now mostly somewhere else?
The original idea was that they would be mostly in Glasgow and go to Iona for short periods of spiritual refreshment (if that's the right word). Way back when it started. Maybe they have changed since.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
I have never been to SH or any other such gathering.
But I have felt the entirely negative aspects of SH.
A group who attended came back to their local Church ( in this case an LEP_) armed with a manifesto which required the clergy of the LEP to sign up to a set of doctrinal positions.
Some of the positions were abhorrent and I refused to sign up.
All hell broke loose. The LEP was hopelessly divided. The Bishop came in to mediate. Not successfully.
It was an experience I never wish to go through again. Nor will I easily forgive the SH advocates who ( no doubt with the best intentions) successfully created havoc in an ecumenical context.
[ 20. April 2012, 19:21: Message edited by: shamwari ]
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
What original idea?
The one of building a theological seminary in the Islands of Scotland?
The one of some sort of training institute in Urban Mission for Church of Scotland ordinands?
The one about giving a place outside the industrial centres of Scotland where churches could rethink what it meant to be church in those setting?
The idea of getting CofS ordinands to spend some time working with their hands alongside people who were labourers?
The community was originally envisaged as only made of Church of Scotland ministers, who'd specialise in working in the inner cities (not just Glasgow even then) and such in Scotland (quite early on there was a commitment to the rural poor as well and the community has provided quite a few of CofS Gaelic speaking ministers). The Abbey would be part training centre and part place for reflection and developing thinking for this group.
As late as the nineteen eighties you could still see the legacy of this origin, the majority of members were male CofS ministers although even then they tended not to be solely working in Urban Priority Areas.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not sure what you're driving at SvitlanaV2. You seem to be making an assumption that all of us want to go to Christian festivals of one form or another, and that the only option is to find one that fits with our particular churchmanship or ethos.
There are alternatives. Like not going to festivals and conventions at all.
It wouldn't worry me if I didn't go to another Christian residential event ever again. I've got nothing against them, but the way some people talk you'd think they were compulsory, like some kind of Christian version of the Haj (or Hadj). I'd rather have a proper holiday.
I've never been on a retreat, though, in the sense of going to a monastery or something. I might try that some time.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Gamaliel
On this thread, people are talking about how many festivals they've been to, and how irritating these events have become. I'm just wondering why anyone would go to these events year after year, until they grow sick of them! Moderation in all things, folks!
It's just a different church culture, I suppose.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, I think that's the nub of it, SvitlanaV2. There is something of a 'crowd mentality' within aspects of evangelicalism. When we first moved here and started attending our local parish church, with its evangelical and increasingly wannabe charismatic flavour, we were put under a lot of pressure to sign up for New Wine. We must have refused about five or six times before the vicar and his wife finally gave up asking us to consider going.
As soon as anyone new comes along they try to persuade them to go along too. They see it as part of their ethos and, I suspect, a way to inculcate people into a more charismatic experience and practice.
We're going in the opposite direction so won't play ball.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
Greenbelt has an Anglican Sacramental aspect - you can go to Mass daily (even avoiding the Sunday morning) and participate in other things and hear plenty of speakers on the Apostolical side of Luther. Blessed, The Goth Eucharist and Visions all have an Anglo-Catholic flavour to them.
There is of course Walsingham too.
Anglo-Catholicism used to be able to muster big conferences, but these days is old and crotchety and needs to get over itself and be renewed. An Anglo-Catholic SH would involve moaning that father/mother didn't wear a maniple at mass and how the bar wasn't serving the right brand of gin (Plymouth).
I sometimes wonder if the real reason Stoneleigh stopped was that they wanted to avoid people harking back to how amazing it was in '92
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Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
Iona and the "modern" organisation is wonderful IMO - I love going to Iona. You aren't normally allowed to camp there, a lot of you. But they do have hotels and staying in the organisation. We also have often used the Iona hymns in CofE.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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The Weeder
Shipmate
# 11321
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
quote:
Originally posted by The Weeder:
I have no recollection of the Express being on the list! The Intelligent choice was indeed the Grauniad.
I think that was the most stimulating Spring Harvest I attended.
May be I should try it again next year.
I'd have said that the Guardian was the smug,self-satisfied option myself. But I don't go to these sort of things anyway.
Bah! Outed as smug and self-satisfied! And I thought I hid it so well.....
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Still missing the gator
Posts: 2542 | From: LaLa Land | Registered: Apr 2006
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greenhouse
Shipmate
# 4027
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I have never been to SH or any other such gathering.
But I have felt the entirely negative aspects of SH.
A group who attended came back to their local Church ( in this case an LEP_) armed with a manifesto which required the clergy of the LEP to sign up to a set of doctrinal positions.
I have never heard of anything like this. For a start Spring Harvest is not a denominational organisation, so has no specific doctrinal position to push on many points.
Where had this group got their manifesto from? Something they found while they were attending, or something they came up with themselves?
I'm also confused as to how the Bishop got involved. Surely the clergy ere capable of just saying 'no'.
Posts: 94 | From: North West | Registered: Jan 2003
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
My guess would be, Greenhouse, that SH attracts the more conservatively inclined and that these would be the ones concocting the particular doctrinal statements presented to the LEP. It would not necessarily represent the views of the SH committee nor all those who attend the event itself - but I think it's fair to say that SH isn't going to attract dyed-in-the-wool liberals by and large ...
There are gradations, of course. Keswick would be more conservative than SH and SH is probably less conservative than it was back in the early 1980s.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jude
Shipmate
# 3033
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Posted
I've been to Spring Harvest a few times and really enjoyed it. However, I have only been in the past few years and probably wouldn't have liked it if I had gone in the old evangelical days. I like being able to go to different groups after the Bible study in the morning. I like the variety of seminars. I love going to the Alternative Worship, because the Big Top is not my thing. The Butlin's facilities and the beach are a great bonus. I like to go to the Sun And Moon and hear the gossip there.
In other words, I love Spring Harvest. But although the young kids' stuff seems like fun and the adults have loads of different ways to discover about God, I'm not too sure about the youth program, which is where mine will be next year. I don't think that the evangelical message is quite right. They've come back to their home church saying that you won't get to heaven unless you believe in Jesus (?!)
Because of this, I don't want to go to Spring Harvest for a few years, until they've grown up, which could mean that I miss out on some excellent lectures. i.e. Rob Parsons.
I'm confused ...
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"...But I always want to know the things one shouldn’t do.”
“So as to do them?” asked her aunt.
“So as to choose,” said Isabel.
Henry James - The Portrait of A Lady
Posts: 233 | From: A town with four parishes | Registered: Jul 2002
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TonyinOxford
Apprentice
# 12657
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Posted
Sorry not to have noticed that the Iona option had surfaced again, which I threw into the mix before the bigger venues/organisers held the field for a bit.
The Iona Community is a dispersed community -- so its members live and work now throughout Scotland and the UK, as well as in the rest of Europe (Ireland, Sweden, the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland) -- and much further afield in individual cases. There's a handful living on or near the Hebridean island (probably more now than when George Macleod started the whole thing). Originally they were all men in Scotland (and then in missions in Africa, some of them). The Community is now an ecumenical community of women and men, and international.
Going to Iona is meant to give anyone and everyone a chance to think about and do 'living in community', and to share in worship guided by the thinking and experience of the Iona Community, including John Bell's style of encouraging musical participation.
Ken, I wasn't sure about the tone of your brackets. Iona can ceratinly be bracing as well as refreshing. Come and see!
Tony
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Tony
Posts: 35 | From: oxford | Registered: May 2007
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