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Source: (consider it) Thread: Why is Mitt Romney's religion a non-issue?
opaWim
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People with longer memories than U.S. voters will remember that one of the seemingly major reasons why Barack Obama shouldn't be president of the U.S.A. was -or apparently still is for some- his alleged secretly being a Muslim.

What puzzles me is that Mitt Romney's being a Mormon has been a non-issue to this present day.
Is this the result of decades of downplaying by Mormons of the fundamental differences with orthodox/mainstream Christianity?
Or is it basically that for Republican candidates religious affiliation is irrelevant as long as they parrot supposedly conservative values, while for Democratic candidates any religious affiliation can and must be used to invalidate them?

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
Or is it basically that for Republican candidates religious affiliation is irrelevant as long as they parrot supposedly conservative values, while for Democratic candidates any religious affiliation can and must be used to invalidate them?

Bingo.

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Sir Pellinore
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As someone who is not an American, may I say that I think the Romney candidacy has focussed many Americans' attention on the disparate courses in national life and history that mainstream Christianity and the Mormon Church have taken?

'Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints really Christian?'

'If not should a Mormon be President of what is still essentially a Christian nation?'

I think many Americans would answer 'No' to both and vote accordingly.

[ 18. April 2012, 08:18: Message edited by: Sir Pellinore (ret'd) ]

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
Or is it basically that for Republican candidates religious affiliation is irrelevant as long as they parrot supposedly conservative values, while for Democratic candidates any religious affiliation can and must be used to invalidate them?

Bingo.
Also, white heretics are less scary than black people (because you can't SEE heresy the way you can constantly see skin colour), but it's no longer acceptable to focus on skin colour so there's a need to pick on some other 'concern' that might pass muster.

Frankly, I also think that Barack Obama wouldn't have had that line of attack if his name was John Smith. Secretly a Muslim was basically a variation on secretly not born in the USA. A heck of a lot of that nonsense boiled down to "he's got a funny foreign-sounding name". Why a country who elected people named Millard, Rutherford (as a first name) and Grover should be bothered by this is a matter for further speculation, but people basically grasped for a REASON why his name sounded funny.

[ 18. April 2012, 08:28: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Niteowl

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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
As someone who is not an American, may I say that I think the Romney candidacy has focussed many Americans' attention on the disparate courses in national life and history that mainstream Christianity and the Mormon Church have taken?

'Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints really Christian?'

'If not should a Mormon be President of what is still essentially a Christian nation?'

I think many Americans would answer 'No' to both and vote accordingly.

That is not true. There is a visceral hatred of Obama on the right and con evos will hold their noses and vote for Romney. Polls right now are showing Romney with a lead over Obama. I'd say the economy will decide the election. If there are significant changes before November Obama stands a good chance of winning. If things stay the same or get worse Romney has a very good chance of winning.

[ 18. April 2012, 08:30: Message edited by: Niteowl2 ]

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anteater

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Can I broaden this out to a more general discussion about whether a person's religious, or other ideological position (e.g. Randian Objectivism), is relevant to their candidacy? To me it's obvious that it is, and any other view seems plain nuts. That does not mean it's the only factor, and I could possibly vote for someone who held a view I objected to, if other factors made this the least bad choice. Hell, if I'd been French I'd have voted for Chirac against LePen. Not that being crooked is an ideological position.

So the argument is: If you believe something there is a reasonalbe chance that it will affect your actions. I know many will laugh at the idea that a person's religious views do affect their actions - but it has been known.

So, if you hold to a religious worldview that holds homosexuality to be a sin against All That is Holy, then all things being equal, if you can influence policy to impede acceptance of homosexuality you will. That's point 1.

Point2 is that if you're dumb enough to believe against all evidence that the amerindians are descendents of the tribes of Israel, then you're pretty dumb. Of course, dumbness is selective. Many people (even Nobel Laureates) are financially dumb (I'm sure you can think of names), and hold beliefs no more rational than that the Kingdom of God will be centred in Jackson Missouri. Or that black people were black because of the curse of God.

(Now I realise that the Mormon church has rescinded the restrictions on black people. But SFAIK (and I am willing to be corrected here), the revised stance is not that the idea of the curse of black skin is bullshit (which any sane person would believe) but the curse has now been lifted. So this means that previous discrimination against blacks was correct behaviour, even though it would no longer be correct today. And the many offensive references to black skin remain in the BoM).

I think that nothing could bring me to vote for someone who was a missionary for a racist church (assuming Romney's mission years were pre 1978 which is likely).

Now if the other candidates were just as bad? Dunno. But how that's irrelevant, I just do not get.

[ 18. April 2012, 10:02: Message edited by: anteater ]

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Twilight

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I agree with Anteater, but put another slight slant on the Mormon issue when it refers to someone like Romney who was born into the religion. If Romney had first embraced the religion when he was a young man, I would agree that he must have been rather stupid, racist, sexist, or else extremely lost and lonely when the missionaries came to the door.

But he simply grew up with it and never broke away. To me this says that he's more interested in pleasing his family and friends and in best serving his financial and ambitious interests than he is in searching for truth or questioning the status quo that has given him such a great life so far. In other words I think Romney's a Mormon like Nixon was a Quaker.

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Freddy
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People often don't understand that the Mormon church doesn't emphasize its peculiar teachings and is really mostly about "clean living."

I have a friend who is a Mormon bishop and he pointed this out to me. He has no deep understanding of Mormon theology and is never interested in having a conversation about it. But he is all about maintaining the system of social enforcement that is the strength of the Mormon lifestyle. That lifestyle can be characterized as garden-variety clean living - no drinking, no smoking, no extramarital sex, tithe to your church, church service work, church attendance, etc. Every Mormon is rigorously checked on these points on an annual basis.

While I think that Mormon theology is ludicrous and its system of social control scary, I can't help but applaud the lifestyle. Everyone knows that Mormons are great people with conservative values.

So Romney's religion is a non-issue. Added to that is the fact that there have been many Mormons in US government over the years, from many senators such as Orrin Hatch, cabinet members such as Stewart Udall, and governors such as George Romney, Mitt's father. George was also a presidential candidate in 1968. So if Romney's religion was going to be an issue it would have been one a long time ago.

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opaWim
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
So Romney's religion is a non-issue.

But only if your assumption is correct that Mormons in general, and Mitt Romney in particular, do not take their church's theology seriously.

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Kwesi
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Ithink, Freddy, you might have pointed out that the clean-living Mormons own and promote that den of vice, Las Vegas!
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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
So Romney's religion is a non-issue.

But only if your assumption is correct that Mormons in general, and Mitt Romney in particular, do not take their church's theology seriously.
Well it's more than that. The question isn't whether it's an issue from a Mormon's perspective. The question is whether it's an issue from a non-Mormon's perspective. Freddy's explanation only works if non-Mormons understand that Mormons don't take the crazy theology seriously. And Freddy negated that, to at least some extent, at the start of his post.

The reality of Mormon life is beside the point, rightly or wrongly, when asking about perception of Mormons.

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CorgiGreta
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I tend suspect that Mr. Romney very much wants to be the first Mormon President, a goal his father failed to achieve. I will go so far as to suggest that such a goal may even be Mr. Romney's primary motivation. I can't, of course, confirm truth of my suspicions, but I don't think that they are preposterous.
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Anyuta
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I agree that ones religion generally impacts ones actions (or at least how one views the actions of others, since we know many devout believers who nevertheless don't act accordingly). However, I think that in a candidate, it's relevant only to the extent that it does indeed impact their actions. if a candidate believes X, but does not allow this to shape their policy becuase they recognise that it's a matter of personal choice, then their belief is irrelevant to my support/non support. it's what they DO about that believe that matters to me.
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Beeswax Altar
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Romney's Mormonism has been an issue.

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Saul the Apostle
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Romney's Mormonism has been an issue.

Yes, me too.

I thought the reason that Santorum did well in more traditional 'Bible Belt' states was the fact that he was a Christian, albeit a Catholic one. Whilst Romney is not a Christian, or belongs to a sect that in many quarters is seen as a rather wacky off shoot of orthodox Christian belief.

Joseph Smith's teaching are classic ''I've had a special revelation'' garbage with some sort of odd angel showing him these special plates. It is way off and not part of the main Christian tradition - IMHO and hence Romney being rather timidly being supported by some Republicans.

Saul

Saul

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
Can I broaden this out to a more general discussion about whether a person's religious, or other ideological position (e.g. Randian Objectivism), is relevant to their candidacy?

If a person seriously claims to believe that Ayn Rand crap then either they are lying or they are not fit to run a shithouse, never mind a whitehouse.

quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
.... a sect that in many quarters is seen as a rather wacky off shoot of orthodox Christian belief.

"many quarters"? Who on earth doesn't think its a wacky offshoor of orthodox Christian belief?

Mormons themselves probably think its less wacky than the rest of us do, and Christians can argue among ourselves about how far it has in fact shot off, but...

[ 18. April 2012, 13:21: Message edited by: ken ]

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Freddy's explanation only works if non-Mormons understand that Mormons don't take the crazy theology seriously. And Freddy negated that, to at least some extent, at the start of his post.

The reality of Mormon life is beside the point, rightly or wrongly, when asking about perception of Mormons.

I'm not sure that my statement that people don't understand how the Mormon church works negates my point. And Mormons do take their crazy theology seriously, they just don't make a big deal of it. What they make a big deal about are the things that all Christians tend to have in common - prayer, church attendance, the Gospels, etc.

I think that many people would say that the public perception of Mormons focuses on their reputation as clean-living, pious people who are sincere, upright, and family oriented. Some would also say that they are scary and cult-like with crazy misogynist teachings.

I think the bigger point, though, may be the sheer numbers of Mormons who have been and are involved in the government. There are, for example, currently fifteen Mormons in Congress, and there have been scores of them in the past. By contrast the first Muslim in Congress was not elected until 2007.

Here is an article from the Pew Forum on Mormons in public life.

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BessLane
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My cynical self thinks that if there were another viable candidate within the GOP, then his religion would be more of an issue. I seem to recall that was the case four years ago. The Dems aren't going to make it an issue because it will bring the whole Obama-Muslim thing back into the mainstrem meadia, and the GOP aren't going to make it an issue because they really don't have anyone else to support at this point. If, for instance, Huckabee had been in the mix this time around, my feeling is that we would have heard a great deal more about it.

YMMV

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anteater

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Ken:
quote:
If a person seriously claims to believe that Ayn Rand crap then either they are lying or they are not fit to run a shithouse, never mind a whitehouse.
Like Alan Greenspan, the longest serving US Treasury Secretary?

Or does the USA rate below shithouse in your hierarchy of human institutions?

Actually unlike most, I think she has some virtues (and many vices) as a writer. But I agree she was batshit crazy.

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anteater

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Freddy:
quote:
And Mormons do take their crazy theology seriously, they just don't make a big deal of it.
What exactly is that meant to mean? And why not include exclusion of same sex relationships for their garden variety morality?

I agree they keep quite about them. Wouldn't you? I mean the story of how the negroes (to use the preferred Mormon term) got their black skin makes L. Ron Hubbard sound like a sane person. Not to mention the Adam Christ theory et al ad nauseam.

So doesn't all this re-inforce the image of Mitt Romney as someone who wouldn't know what a conviction was if it bit him through the sacred underwear? So he believes all this shit except he doesn't really (wink, wink). Or not so that he'd actually do anything about it.

Just like his politics. Everyone knows he's really gritting his teeth to appease the Tea Party Numpties, to get the nomination and then get serious with a middle-of-the-road programme. Which is what he believes - and of course is a good thing.

Reminds me of a statement by that exemplification of how brilliance and stupidity can exist in the same person (in this case David Pawson) who said: One of the most stupid things ever said is that it doesn't matter what a person believes so long as he is sincere. Actually the reverse is true. It doesn't matter so long as he is insincere, because then his beliefs will not affect his actions. It was the sincerity of Hitler's anti-semitism that made it so deadly.

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
Ken:
quote:
If a person seriously claims to believe that Ayn Rand crap then either they are lying or they are not fit to run a shithouse, never mind a whitehouse.
Like Alan Greenspan, the longest serving US Treasury Secretary?

Or does the USA rate below shithouse in your hierarchy of human institutions?

Well, I suspect that most folks in this country would readily acknowledge that Greenspan was a major force behind the credit default swap fiasco that nearly destroyed the world's economy. He had the authority to enforce his view, and his view was that government oversight was bad and markets were self-regulating. If that doesn't make him unfit for the office that he held for so long, it is hard to imagine what would count as such.

--Tom Clune

[ 18. April 2012, 13:46: Message edited by: tclune ]

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Romney's Mormonism has been an issue.

For example Robert Jeffress, pastor of the First Baptist Church in Dallas and organizer of the Values Voter Summit, called Mormonism a 'cult' and claimed Romney wasn't a Christian. The implication being that Christianity was an important characteristic for a candidate.

Of course, Pastor Jeffress has also recently had to adjust to certain political realities. In a lot of ways this is the American Christian Right in miniature: not happy about backing a Mormon candidate, but willing to do so unenthusiasticly as a means to oppose the Secret Muslim Communist Atheist Negro Dictator in the White House.

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
Freddy:
quote:
And Mormons do take their crazy theology seriously, they just don't make a big deal of it.
What exactly is that meant to mean? And why not include exclusion of same sex relationships for their garden variety morality?
I just mean that they keep quiet about their theology. Good point to note their exclusion of same-sex relationships - a fairly common position among conservative Christians.
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
I agree they keep quiet about them. Wouldn't you?

Yes.

I am in no way defending Mormon theology. My point is that they are generally considered to be fine people and are a long-accepted fixture in US politics. Making an issue of Romney's religion is as repugnant as it would be if he were Jewish or Catholic. Clearly the dim-witted suggestions that Obama was Muslim were also repugnant to almost all Americans. Attacking someone on the basis of their religion is un-American (despite the fact that we have a long tradition of doing just that [Biased] ).

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Ithink, Freddy, you might have pointed out that the clean-living Mormons own and promote that den of vice, Las Vegas!

While there are a good number of Mormons living in Nevada, they don't "own" it the same way they "own" Utah.

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Kwesi
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Sorry, I should have said casinos etc.!
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Gramps49
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Could it be that Romney's religion is a non issue because there is no religious qualification in our constitution?

I think so.

The bigger issue is his ability to stand on everyone's side. (He flip flops so many times he can't keep track of his own positions himself.)

Note to nightowl. The most recent poll I have seen shoes more people like Obama (56%) to Romney (35%). Women are still trending to Obama by 2 to 1.

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Kwesi
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Gramps Could it be that Romney's religion is a non issue because there is no religious qualification in our constitution?
I think so.


I think not. Constitutional constraints or otherwise should not be confused with factors deciding voter preferences. Catholicism helped to do for Al Smith, and was a problem for JFK. By and large mainstream protestantism has been the safest bet.

Incidentally, Reagan was referred to as "Born again and married again!"

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Beeswax Altar
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Depends on how you define issue. Any US citizen age 35 or older at the time of inauguration can serve as president regardless of their religion. Nothing prevents voters from taking a candidates religious views into account when they go into the voting booth. So, no, Romney's Mormonism has not been an issue as far as him getting on the ballot. However, his Mormonism has been an issue for some primary voters and will likely be an issue for some in the general election. How big an issue remains to be seen.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
So he believes all this shit except he doesn't really (wink, wink). Or not so that he'd actually do anything about it.

The question is not whether he believes it. The question is whether he will try to force everyone else to act as if they believe it as well.

To give a trivial example, I don't care if a politician believes it's wrong to eat pork. Just so long as they don't try to stop me eating it as well.

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anteater

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Freddy:

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Mockingale
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quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
People with longer memories than U.S. voters will remember that one of the seemingly major reasons why Barack Obama shouldn't be president of the U.S.A. was -or apparently still is for some- his alleged secretly being a Muslim.

What puzzles me is that Mitt Romney's being a Mormon has been a non-issue to this present day.
Is this the result of decades of downplaying by Mormons of the fundamental differences with orthodox/mainstream Christianity?
Or is it basically that for Republican candidates religious affiliation is irrelevant as long as they parrot supposedly conservative values, while for Democratic candidates any religious affiliation can and must be used to invalidate them?

The three frontrunners until recently in the Republican primaries were a Mormon and two Roman Catholics. For a party traditionally associated with WASPs and now associated with evangelical Protestantism, this is pretty remarkable. As recently as 1960 there were serious questions about electing a Roman Catholic (JFK), because he was an outsider to the Protestant mainstream and many believed he would take marching orders from the Pope.

The evangelicals and conservative Catholics have made a fairly comfortable marriage of convenience advocating for social conservatism. The Mormons can fit into this. If the conservative evos can make nice with the Catholics (whom many believed 50 years ago to be followers of the Antichrist), and with Orthodox Jews, there's no reason they can't tolerate conservative Mormons.

The question, though, is how conservative Mitt Romney is (or will act). He's thoroughly old-school country-club Republican, conservative on fiscal matters but essentially indifferent about social policy.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
And Mormons do take their crazy theology seriously, they just don't make a big deal of it.

Again, it matters little whether Mormons make a big deal of crazy Mormon theology. It matters far more whether non-Mormons make a big deal of crazy Mormon theology.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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Mormonism has made a concerted effort to be "accepted" by mainline churches and the middle class. It has by and large succeeded.

Most Mainline Protestants don't view Mormonism as crazy; it may be different, and not their cup of tea, but it there and accepted. It has ceased to be scary. Unless you are someone like my Minister or myself, our church's resident Theology junkies, most mainline Protestant don't give a second thought for Mormon theology.

For instance the local Mormon church here had a group nativity display at Christmas, all local churches were invited to participate in putting their nativity scenes in a exposition held at the Mormon church. Ok, seems safe, no wacky theology, makes the Mormon church look like just another one of us, part the community, and their clean-cut tie-wearing Elders look respectable.

In North America the Mormon church has gained acceptance and respectability.

Secondly, since the 1960's "Christian Values" conservatives have learned to make peace with Catholics. Protestant/Catholic bashing has almost ceased to exist, witness Santorum. The Abortion dead horse showed this group that there was much common ground and many votes to be gained by respecting Catholicism and frankly any other religious confession that professed the same personal morality. This is why old-fashioned "Whore of Babylon" Protestant bigotry is hard to find nowadays. It's amazing how this group has opened itself to its own form of diversity and toleration.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Organ Builder
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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
This is why old-fashioned "Whore of Babylon" Protestant bigotry is hard to find nowadays.

It's harder to find, but in parts of the country its demise is greatly exaggerated (greetings from Georgia).

I still have a sneaking suspicion that Mike Huckabee would have sewn up the Republican nomination by now, even if he had a stroke and started espousing positions far to the left of Ted Kennedy.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Og, King of Bashan

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quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
Or is it basically that for Republican candidates religious affiliation is irrelevant as long as they parrot supposedly conservative values, while for Democratic candidates any religious affiliation can and must be used to invalidate them?

You are trying very hard to make the Republicans the hypocrites here, but you still manage to hit on a broad truth. People of either party are going to vote for someone who shares their values, even if they don't share their religion. How many liberal atheists who otherwise spend time mocking Christians and the Catholic Church pulled the lever for John Kerry? Quite a few, I imagine, because he shared their social values. Likewise, people who have "how to talk to a Mormon" books on their shelves will pull the lever for Romney because he shares their social values.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
You are trying very hard to make the Republicans the hypocrites here, but you still manage to hit on a broad truth. People of either party are going to vote for someone who shares their values, even if they don't share their religion. How many liberal atheists who otherwise spend time mocking Christians and the Catholic Church pulled the lever for John Kerry? Quite a few, I imagine, because he shared their social values. Likewise, people who have "how to talk to a Mormon" books on their shelves will pull the lever for Romney because he shares their social values.

The difference is that there doesn't seem to be a Democratic equivalent of Robert Jeffress or Pat Robertson (who seems to both support Romney and regard him as a Satan-worshipping cultist [Confused] ). The Republican party have given religiousity a political emphasis in a way the Democrats haven't.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:

In North America the Mormon church has gained acceptance and respectability.

Some of that is going to be just familiarity. Over here Mormons are rare. The only ones most of us ever see are those missionaries, who with their name-badges, their dress code that looks like IBM management trainees circa 1962, their almost creepily excessive politeness, and their apparent interest in taking Mormon theology very seriously indeed, strike most of us as really quite weird.

On the Ship I think I might have noticed the same thing the other way round about Jehovah's Witnesses. Although they are American in origin they seem to be stranger to a lot of the US posters than to some of the British ones - I don;t know about the rest of Britain but round where I live they are actually quite common. So perhaps they look more "normal" to us. Heretical, but not alien. Mormons seem alien.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
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The very fact that someone could consider a candidate a cultist and still support them because the candidate shares the voter's social values proves my point. For social issues voters of either party, the box the candidate checks for "religion" matters less than the box the candidate checks on "was Roe v. Wade correctly decided." If you vote on social issues, when you get into the ballot box and have a choice between someone who shares your values and someone who doesn't, you are going to vote for the person who shares your values, regardless of their religion. So what if some prominent religious conservatives are outspoken about the religious differences between themselves and their candidates? In the end, most social issue voters vote on the issues, not the religion.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:

In North America the Mormon church has gained acceptance and respectability.

Some of that is going to be just familiarity. Over here Mormons are rare. The only ones most of us ever see are those missionaries, who with their name-badges, their dress code that looks like IBM management trainees circa 1962, their almost creepily excessive politeness, and their apparent interest in taking Mormon theology very seriously indeed, strike most of us as really quite weird.

On the Ship I think I might have noticed the same thing the other way round about Jehovah's Witnesses. Although they are American in origin they seem to be stranger to a lot of the US posters than to some of the British ones - I don;t know about the rest of Britain but round where I live they are actually quite common. So perhaps they look more "normal" to us. Heretical, but not alien. Mormons seem alien.

And I think that varies neighborhood to neighborhood around here. I grew up with a lot of Mormons, and went to law school with a lot of Mormons, so I don't think of them as alien at all. My wife, who grew up 45 minutes away from me, had no idea that Mormon missionaries actually do dress in white short sleeved shirts, black ties, bicycle helmets, and backpacks, until she actually saw some about a year ago.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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An interesting case to compare to Romney is Senator Harry Reid, Democratic Senate Majority leader and a fairly classic liberal-progressive party member and legislator as far as I can tell -- also a Mormon, and actually a convert to the LDS church in his young adulthood.

Reid is sort of the anti-Romney and had a very hard-scrabble, disadvantaged upbringing. He's really a kind of classic by-one's-own -bootstraps American success story. I'm not sure what exactly motivated his conversion to the Mormon sect. However, whereas I subjectively find Romney alien and distasteful, I quite like Reid because his political ideology is congruent with my own. This tends to support the point made that it's really all about ideological values congruence rather than religious beliefs.

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
On the Ship I think I might have noticed the same thing the other way round about Jehovah's Witnesses. Although they are American in origin they seem to be stranger to a lot of the US posters than to some of the British ones - I don;t know about the rest of Britain but round where I live they are actually quite common. So perhaps they look more "normal" to us. Heretical, but not alien. Mormons seem alien.

I agree that this is opposite over here in the US. JWs are very strange indeed and often unreasonable when they insistently come door to door telling you that your beliefs are wrong. I've had the experience of having to forcefully ask them to leave and even been cursed. But in the US Mormons are all-American types, very polite about your religion, and do not come across as weird at all.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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For anyone who needs a quickie course on Mormonism. [Big Grin]
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Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
For anyone who needs a quickie course on Mormonism. [Big Grin]

I encourage anyone to watch the entire episode. What they do in this episode (and, as I understand it, in "The Book of Mormon" musical) is lampoon the beliefs, but acknowledge that Mormons in the end are generally really friendly, really well-meaning people, and probably great neighbors. Essentially, they do for Mormons what the writers of the Simpsons did to evangelical Christians in their mocking but still loving depiction of Ned Flanders. It is very intelligent commentary, disguised as a crass cartoon.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Gramps49
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To those who think Romney's Mormonism is an issue, I will respectfully disagree. I believe JFK's election put much of that type of concern to rest. True, there are some hardliners out there who may say they cannot vote for a Mormon, but even they will probably have no choice but to vote for Romney if they really want to get rid of Obama, or just stay home.

Again, it is not one's faith that will make or break this election--it will be one's vision for America's future. Much of the debate looks like it will be on the Ryan Budget Plan.

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Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
True, there are some hardliners out there who may say they cannot vote for a Mormon, but even they will probably have no choice but to vote for Romney if they really want to get rid of Obama, or just stay home.

A gallop poll taken a little less than a year ago showed that 20% of Americans would not vote for a Mormon. The same poll showed that 18% of Republicans would not vote for a Mormon, and 27% of Democrats would not vote for a Mormon. So don't think that everyone who wouldn't vote for a Mormon is going to just stay at home on election day. Lots of those people are going to show up to support Obama.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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In my previous life in Texas I had occasion to know or talk to quite a few Southern Baptists. IME their denomination was generally formidably opposed to Mormonism, so much so that I find it unlikely that the more orthodox/bigoted Southern Baptists could bring themselves to vote for a Mormon for POTUS. I mean, the view seemed to be that Mormons were like the Soviet Union to the Baptist's America-City-on-a-Hill -- there was a unique Southern Baptist cultural opposition to Mormons that went beyond mere theology, although Baptists I knew certainly expressed vociferous scorn for Mormon beliefs.
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Organ Builder
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The fact that it clearly isn't an insurmountable issue doesn't mean it isn't an issue at all--there is a difference between voting for Romney because one dislikes him less than Obama and voting for Romney because one enthusiastically supports him. The main difference is how hard one might be willing to work at getting out the vote, stuffing envelopes, manning phones (or whatever the modern equivalent of all those things is).

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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Romney also has the image of a liberal that he has not been able to shed. That, IMO, is more of a problem for him than his Mormonism.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Gramps49
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Recently, the conservative members of Congress put on a round table discussion with conservatives nationwide. When asked if they could support the nomination of Romney, their responses, at best, were tepid. Most said they would support Romney if only to defeat Obama. Romney has an overall enthusiasm gap among his own party members. You can't win an election without enthusiasm.
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163

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quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
As someone who is not an American, may I say that I think the Romney candidacy has focussed many Americans' attention on the disparate courses in national life and history that mainstream Christianity and the Mormon Church have taken?

'Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints really Christian?'

'If not should a Mormon be President of what is still essentially a Christian nation?'

I think many Americans would answer 'No' to both and vote accordingly.

That is not true. There is a visceral hatred of Obama on the right and con evos will hold their noses and vote for Romney. Polls right now are showing Romney with a lead over Obama. I'd say the economy will decide the election. If there are significant changes before November Obama stands a good chance of winning. If things stay the same or get worse Romney has a very good chance of winning.
The election may, indeed, be very close.

Somehow I don't think America - from Detroit to Florida - is quite ready for a Mormon presidency.

I'm grateful to L. Sv. K. for his elucidations on Mormon politicians and Romney.

I'm not predicting.

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Well...

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