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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Parenting our little darling monsters - legitimate & edifying measures of discipline
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LutheranChik
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# 9826
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Posted
I think Ruby's naughtiness quotient -- which is very small for a kid her age, and almost non-existent in public settings -- has to do with the degree that her parents engage with her in a real way and help her navigate the adult world, in contrast to other parents (like her aunt and uncle) who basically keep the children in a separate social bubble, usually with other children, never really conversing with their kids in a real way or involving them in a meaningful way in their activities.
When Ruby is on errands with her parents, she is being spoken to like another, albeit tiny, human being ALL THE TIME. In the grocery store, she's asked her opinions on food, she gets to show off her color-naming and counting skills, she gets explanations of what Mama is doing, she's given small tasks to accomplish for Mama. Ditto if she's accompanying Daddy on his morning walk/coffee procurement or helping him with his household chores. In restaurants, she gets, instead of her own generic and bland "kids' meal," tastes of all the adults' foods. ("Let's face it," her father told us, "any restaurant kid's meal is going to suck. So why make her eat one?") She is a child who, despite spending time every week in daycare and a number of toddler-oriented classes, is comfortable around adults, can communicate with them and knows that she doesn't have to act out to get adult attention. She also has "jobs" to do, even though she's two. And she is about as perfect a child as a two-year-old can be in a restaurant setting; because it's highly interesting to her, she gets to taste a bunch of different tastes, and she gets included in the grownups' conversations. (She is in fact, visibly disturbed by other, misbehaving children in such places, and keeps looking at us as if to say, "What the hell is the matter with them?")
I think in recent decades there's been such a move toward a kind of generational segregation where children are, most of the time, among other peers with minimal meaningful interaction with adults and little exposure to how adults in general conduct themselves, that it's no wonder children don't know how to behave appropriately in "adult" situations like shopping or restaurant dining.
Of course, our kids have because of their lifestyle some freedom to include the grandchild in their daily activities in a way that other parents may not. And Granddaughter, at home, has some typical two-year-old oppositional behavior from time to time. But I'm just sayin'.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858
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Posted
My two are 6 and almost 2. I haven't had to do a lot of disciplining. I'm not sure why that is. Well, one thing is that from my perspective, they don't seem to do a lot wrong. The other is that my 6 year old has already learnt that it's much nicer to spend time together enjoying each other's company than winding each other up.
I wonder sometimes whether the people I know who seem to have to do an awful lot of discipline think their children are defective adults rather than, well, children...
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by birdie:
ETA: Counting works well for us.
Yes. As with most of the discipline techniques we've discussed here, it depends on consistency and how it is applied. Counting can be just another in a series of empty threats-- as in "1, 2, 3... nothing". But it can also recognize the truth that it can take time for any of us to calm down and get our emotions under control. Toddlers in particular are just learning this skill which, sadly, many an adult never mastered. Counting is a way of recognizing that.
As was noted upthread, it works far better to discuss "rules" outside of the actual incident. Same with "counting"-- it works best if you've had a conversation outside of tantrum time where you've role-played how to get control over your emotions, what change is expected at the end of the count, the consequences for not doing so, and the idea that the count is giving you space to do so.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Val Kyrie
Apprentice
# 17079
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Posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I think Ruby's naughtiness quotient -- which is very small for a kid her age, and almost non-existent in public settings -- has to do with the degree that her parents engage with her in a real way and help her navigate the adult world
I couldn't agree more with everything you've said in the above post. (And some other posts, on other threads!).
I knew people who asked me why I was talking to my babies, or why I discussed things with toddlers. It had never occurred to me NOT to. These people quite often talked to their cats, mind you! Haha!
All of my children developed good communication skills from an early age and also became quite funny, so we could both settle things in an angry way AND we could joke until bad behaviour seemed impossibly stupid. But I did give them "three" sometimes and I have smacked them (infrequently) because they were capable of being pretty bloody defiant! Bless them.
Posts: 27 | From: Up North | Registered: Apr 2012
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I wonder sometimes whether the people I know who seem to have to do an awful lot of discipline think their children are defective adults rather than, well, children...
I can't resist pointing out that this seems to typify the worst sort of polarizing statement one can make regarding parenthood. There are too many parents who think that their experience and what works with their children is normative, and anything else is defective in some way.
It strikes me as crass, unimaginative, and superior.
This kind of behaviour seems to be particularly reserved for child-bearing, education and rearing. It doesn't happen with stomach ulcers, for instance. You don't hear people in the pub saying "well the doctor never needed to give me any antacids to clear up my stomach ulcers. Sometimes I wonder about the attitude of the people taking these pills. It's as much a reflection on them as it is on their ulcers".
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I wonder sometimes whether the people I know who seem to have to do an awful lot of discipline think their children are defective adults rather than, well, children...
I can't resist pointing out that this seems to typify the worst sort of polarizing statement one can make regarding parenthood. There are too many parents who think that their experience and what works with their children is normative, and anything else is defective in some way.
You could have just as easily quoted one of my comments here. And you'd be right.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how non-polarizing debate is done.
If you make a similar point of modelling not lying about chopping down cherry trees for your children then I'm impressed.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I wonder sometimes whether the people I know who seem to have to do an awful lot of discipline think their children are defective adults rather than, well, children...
I can't resist pointing out that this seems to typify the worst sort of polarizing statement one can make regarding parenthood. There are too many parents who think that their experience and what works with their children is normative, and anything else is defective in some way.
It strikes me as crass, unimaginative, and superior.
This kind of behaviour seems to be particularly reserved for child-bearing, education and rearing. It doesn't happen with stomach ulcers, for instance. You don't hear people in the pub saying "well the doctor never needed to give me any antacids to clear up my stomach ulcers. Sometimes I wonder about the attitude of the people taking these pills. It's as much a reflection on them as it is on their ulcers".
Parenting is a polarized subject. If I reacted the way you do, I would regard 99% of what people say to me on the subject as "crass, unimaginative and superior."
The vast majority of people are doing their very best, though, if we all simply post that, there won't be much to discuss.
ETA: For me the question "why discipline your children (in the sense of what behaviour actually required correction)?" is more interesting than "how discipline your children?"
[ 26. April 2012, 15:18: Message edited by: Erroneous Monk ]
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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art dunce
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# 9258
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Posted
In my corner of the world the most smug parents are the one that get an easy going first child and then compare that child to other children and assume the difference is their superior parenting. We call those children tricksters since they often convince their parents to have another and often that second child will be of a completely different temperment and you can see the shell shocked look on the parent's faces as all of their assumptions fly out the window and the second one is a terror and doesn't respond at all to their 'methods'. They run around frazzled and exhausted and keep trying their method while the kid climbs into the glass front bakery case at the store and starts eating rolls (true story) A formerly derided parent might walk by and ask which chapter in the book covered this?
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Niminypiminy
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# 15489
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Parenting is a polarized subject. If I reacted the way you do, I would regard 99% of what people say to me on the subject as "crass, unimaginative and superior."
The vast majority of people are doing their very best, though, if we all simply post that, there won't be much to discuss.
ETA: For me the question "why discipline your children (in the sense of what behaviour actually required correction)?" is more interesting than "how discipline your children?"
I agree that if we all simply agree that we do our various bests, there isn't a debate. But on the other hand if advice on how to do this amazingly difficult job of bringing up a child is to be useful, it has to have some purchase. And the problem is that so many people seem to think 'it has worked for me' will mean that it wil work for everyone else.
As I said in my last post, so much depends on your child. In the case of my elder son, the answer to the question 'why discipline?' is, I think, different to that for a NT child. A child who will not naturally understand social norms nor want to conform to them as he grows up, who will not gradually adopt behaviours that are modelled by his parents, and who is not motivated by social rewards (such as smiles, hugs or praise) needs more artificial encouragement to adopt desired behaviours than others. He needs a much stronger and longer-lasting scaffolding.
FWIW I get heartily sick of people telling me that my son 'is just doing what other children do', and that 'if I just did x, y or z' I wouldn't have any problems. No, and no.
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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
In my corner of the world the most smug parents are the one that get an easy going first child and then compare that child to other children and assume the difference is their superior parenting. We call those children tricksters since they often convince their parents to have another and often that second child will be of a completely different temperment and you can see the shell shocked look on the parent's faces as all of their assumptions fly out the window and the second one is a terror and doesn't respond at all to their 'methods'. They run around frazzled and exhausted and keep trying their method while the kid climbs into the glass front bakery case at the store and starts eating rolls (true story) A formerly derided parent might walk by and ask which chapter in the book covered this?
ah, yes.
The other form of comeupance (of which I have, sadly, personal experience) is the perfect child who suddenly (and it can indeed turn on a dime) hits adolescent rebellion full-on (at which time, of course, the stakes are much, much higher).
As satisfying as it is to witness that karmic retribution visited upon formerly smug parents, having experienced all it's ugly glory, I don't think I could really enjoy it's impact on even my worst enemy.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
As I said in my last post, so much depends on your child. In the case of my elder son, the answer to the question 'why discipline?' is, I think, different to that for a NT child. A child who will not naturally understand social norms nor want to conform to them as he grows up, who will not gradually adopt behaviours that are modelled by his parents, and who is not motivated by social rewards (such as smiles, hugs or praise) needs more artificial encouragement to adopt desired behaviours than others.
Perhaps I am less confident than others on this thread that I can identify what "desired behaviours" are, or should be.
Is that something you can identify with?
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
The flip side is when someone gets the very difficult first child and then gets a easy going second child. This happened to me and I kept worrying there was something wrong with him since he was so happy and sweet all of the time. The doctor assured me he was just a pleasant child.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I would regard 99% of what people say to me on the subject as "crass, unimaginative and superior."
Really? 99% of what people say on parenting has equivalence with referring to "defective adults"?
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I wonder sometimes whether the people I know who seem to have to do an awful lot of discipline think their children are defective adults rather than, well, children...
And I'm having a hard time linking that with the uncertainty expressed here;
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Perhaps I am less confident than others on this thread that I can identify what "desired behaviours" are, or should be.
If you can't identify what desired behaviours are, it seems to me rather a leap to start referring to people as defective adults for not producing them in their children.
Perhaps you meant wondering whether they are defective adults in a sort of "but probably not, no basis for that really" sort of way?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I would regard 99% of what people say to me on the subject as "crass, unimaginative and superior."
Really? 99% of what people say on parenting has equivalence with referring to "defective adults"?
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I wonder sometimes whether the people I know who seem to have to do an awful lot of discipline think their children are defective adults rather than, well, children...
And I'm having a hard time linking that with the uncertainty expressed here;
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Perhaps I am less confident than others on this thread that I can identify what "desired behaviours" are, or should be.
If you can't identify what desired behaviours are, it seems to me rather a leap to start referring to people as defective adults for not producing them in their children.
Perhaps you meant wondering whether they are defective adults in a sort of "but probably not, no basis for that really" sort of way?
I think you might have completely misunderstood me. Probably because I expressed myself badly.
I am saying that I am unsure what is the ideal behaviour for a child. Some people seem to think they know - they think their child is really a mini-adult; when the child does not behave like a mini-audlt, the child is "doing something wrong", which then triggers a requirement for discipline.
I am not sure that my children are "doing something wrong" when they are simply doing something:
I would not do
I do not like
that embarrasses me
that inconveniences me
I have observed that other people - for example, my husband, seems pretty sure that if he is embarrassed by something his child has done, the child must be "behaving badly". I do not think this necessarily follows. Indeed, it is sometimes distressing when adult embarrassment or inconvenience - or worse, a child not behaving like a grown up - are used as reasons for disciplining a child.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
As I said in my last post, so much depends on your child. In the case of my elder son, the answer to the question 'why discipline?' is, I think, different to that for a NT child. A child who will not naturally understand social norms nor want to conform to them as he grows up, who will not gradually adopt behaviours that are modelled by his parents, and who is not motivated by social rewards (such as smiles, hugs or praise) needs more artificial encouragement to adopt desired behaviours than others.
Perhaps I am less confident than others on this thread that I can identify what "desired behaviours" are, or should be.
Is that something you can identify with?
Certainly is. I set the bar quite low, and pick my battles very carefully. Mainly I am trying to see that he doesn't hurt anyone, and that no-one hurts him, that he's not excluded from school, and that other children and adults don't shun him.
On the other hand, I have to help him to live independently in society, as best I can. So we are doing our best with social niceties like table manners, not having tantrums, social greetings and conversation.
But I absolutely do agree with you that many people have very little understanding of how children might be expected to behave at their level of development.
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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/
Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
Erroneous Monk, I don't think you expressed yourself badly; I think you raised valid points.
One rub might be the clash of generations; 'Baby Boomers' born 1946 to 1964, 'Generation X' born 1965 to 1979, and 'Millenials', born 1980 to 2001.
Now I am going to generalize but also use rough numbers based on American data, Google is your friend should you wish to check this out.
Boomers tended to spend time getting their children involved with sports, dance class, etc., the minivan was probably a symbol of that.
They also, according to some data, tended to see their children as extensions of themselves; that might well cause them to punish behavior that appeared to defy those expectations.
There were estimated to be 75 American Baby Boomers.
Gen X tend to reject rules, standards and authority unless they see a point to it; they are far more likely, for example, to live together before marriage.
They often do not have set norms for their children to live up to in the same way their parents did.
Your earlier comments perhaps reflect this; others who took issue with you may also have been simply showing Gen X insistance that there are no set norms.
There were estimated to be around 55 million Gen Xers, significantly less than Boomers.
Millenials tend to want to see things for themselves, can be more teachable than Boomers or Gen Xers, and like to be trusted.
They are children of late Boomers and early Gen X, and outnumber both; in America, there were/are around 79 million of the little buggers.
Discipline probably says more about the parent's attitudes than about the child's behaviour, so the points you raise are quite interesting, IMO.
Of course, I also tend to think this website is a Gen X creation in what is quickly becoming a Millenial's world, but, as a Boomer, I see both generations as extension of ours, and just want you to be the best you can be.
As long as that is something that I want you to be, of course.
[ 26. April 2012, 18:04: Message edited by: Silver Faux ]
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
There are generational differences but also cultural differences. There were a couple of books made popluar recently that explore differences in child rearing based on cultrual expectation. One was the Yale professor's Tiger mother approach and the other Bringing up Bebe about an American mother who says she discovered wisdom in French approaches. My children have friends from various cultural backgrounds and the expectation around performance and behaviour, methods of discipline, and degree of child centeredness in their approaches vary greatly. There are kids whose parents think homework is a waste of time and others who enroll their children in more school after school. There are parents who take a "natural consequences" go with the flow direction and those with strict boundaries and harsh punishment, My daughter is a fine musician and there are kids she knows who are asked to pratice a half hour a day and others who are forced to do two or three full hours. All of these people honestly believe they are doing what is best for their child and each of them can advocate passionately and persuasively for their position.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
I have heard of the turning a child throwing a tantrum upside down and it does appear effective--it throws their balance off and they have to reorient themselves. Never had to resort to that, though.
What is an ideal behavior for a child? Ultimately we want children who are responsible adults who can stand on their own two feet. '
When I say a stern no nonsense voice, I mean a voice that says what it means and means what it says. One that lets the child know the limit has been reached and consequences will follow. Children can see through a ideal threat (for lack of a better term). After all, that is their job, to constantly test boundaries.
Boundaries have to be clear but never rigid. One does not have the same boundaries for a two year old as for a thirteen year old. There are some things a two year old can get away with but would never be permitted with a thirteen year old. Conversely, there are some things a thirteen year old is capable of handling of which a two year old would be incapable. Boundaries will have to be adjusted as a child grows up--and grows away.
And they do grow up.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
My two are 6 and almost 2. I haven't had to do a lot of disciplining. I'm not sure why that is. Well, one thing is that from my perspective, they don't seem to do a lot wrong. The other is that my 6 year old has already learnt that it's much nicer to spend time together enjoying each other's company than winding each other up.
Ah, but if you were to have a no. 3.... ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I am not sure that my children are "doing something wrong" when they are simply doing something:
I would not do
I do not like
that embarrasses me
that inconveniences me
I think very few people would see themselves as reacting in that way, and would usually have some other rationalization. You may disagree with the rationalization, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.
For instance I might think a child ought to ask to leave the table after dinner before they get down. If they don't I might insist they come back and learn to ask politely. And that might involve some amount of discipline, although I wouldn't go too over board on it.
I'm doing it because I think learning to behave politely is important for the child's well being, and self-control is important.
You might disagree with my rationalization, but to say I am doing it simply because the child is doing something I "don't like" isn't helpful.
For what it's worth, the bit where I thought you expressed yourself especially badly was the "defective adult" bit.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I wonder sometimes whether the people I know who seem to have to do an awful lot of discipline think their children are defective adults rather than, well, children...
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
If you can't identify what desired behaviours are, it seems to me rather a leap to start referring to people as defective adults for not producing them in their children.
I don't think Erroneous Monk was referring to the parents as defective adults. Rather, she was wondering if the parents might think of their children as defective adults.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
You don't hear people in the pub saying "well the doctor never needed to give me any antacids to clear up my stomach ulcers. Sometimes I wonder about the attitude of the people taking these pills. It's as much a reflection on them as it is on their ulcers".
Don't you? I do! I mean I do hear people say stuff like that. People who insist that this, that or the other disease is entirely a matter of "lifestyle choice" or not fighting back hard enough or lack of willpower. Its most common amongst braindead New Age fans of psuedoscience and pop psychology of course, but you do hear it down the pub.
Even for really well-characterised diseases. I've met two or three men who were been prescrined allopurinol for gout but refused to take it for some reason. At least one insisted that it would make the disease worse and what you really needed to do was eat lots of anti-oxidants and keep hydrated (and to be fair gout is one of the few diseases for which that well-known advice might imaginably help a little)
Its not as common as the people who tell you that they (or more likely their sister, their cousin, or their aunt) has some weird disease that They can't diagnose and how the stupid doctors keep on giving them the wrong medicine and they've had all the tests that there are and even the Specialists are still flummoxed and the doctor/nurse/whoever said they had never seen anything like it before in their life and it was such a big one and... Hang around in pubs enough and you can hear a variant of that one almost every nght.
I spend a lot of time in pubs. (The lifestyle choice that makes your liver ache)
[ 26. April 2012, 19:39: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
I don't think Erroneous Monk was referring to the parents as defective adults. Rather, she was wondering if the parents might think of their children as defective adults.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Thanks for putting me right.
Mea maxima culpa, I withdraw it all with profuse apologies.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
I don't think Erroneous Monk was referring to the parents as defective adults. Rather, she was wondering if the parents might think of their children as defective adults.
Thanks for putting me right.
Mea maxima culpa, I withdraw it all with profuse apologies.
It wasn't a well constructed sentence. None the less, I think you'd probably have to have already come to the conclusion that I was crass, unimaginative and superior to read it the way you did.
I'm sure you have your reasons.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
What is an ideal behavior for a child? Ultimately we want children who are responsible adults who can stand on their own two feet. '
I'm a chronic clinical depressive with a relationship that limps along and a job that most people despise. Probably, most of all, I want my children not to be like me.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I think you'd probably have to have already come to the conclusion that I was crass, unimaginative and superior to read it the way you did.
I can assure you I have absolutely no prior memory of other postings that lead me to that conclusion a priori.
Again my apologies. I misread.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I'm doing it because I think learning to behave politely is important for the child's well being, and self-control is important.
In fact, probably what drives most of our modes of discipline, is the idea that children will acquire suitable patterns of behaviour by practising them. Conformity will be encouraged, divergence by a range of methods discussed above.
"Adult behaviour" is of course the end-game in this respect (what that actually means is up to the individual parent). Couple that with the over-ambitious yearning of some parents to demonstrate that their children are somehow mature beyond their age group, you will find children being coerced into being "little adults" essentially by brute force.
Fortunately, other ideals prevail too, which afford the child modes of behaviour which are identified as age-conform childliness. But deciding where the fine line between childliness and childishness lies, and policing it properly, is the anguish of many a parent.
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... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
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molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I spend a lot of time in pubs.
*Gasp* So that's where you get all your knowledge from? ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
quote:
I knew people who asked me why I was talking to my babies, or why I discussed things with toddlers. It had never occurred to me NOT to. These people quite often talked to their cats, mind you! Haha!
Our DiL the psychologist tries to avoid tantrums and other acting-out behaviors by teaching Granddaughter to express herself verbally. When she was smaller she actually went to baby sign language class; now she's verbally expressing herself, and can clearly state, "I'm mad," or "I'm sad." Then her mom or dad can ask her why she's sad or mad, and do whatever explaining or comforting needs to be done. Or, if it's some sort of Terrible Two petulance, her parents will respond with something like "You'll get over it," and then stop paying attention to her...with the motive, of course, of getting her to realize that she gets much more positive attention from her parents when she's not peevish.
My partner and I are both very impressed by this very thought-out campaign. DP was a busy working mom when her kids were small, and while she ran a tight ship with them, she didn't have the time or the childcare expertise to work out all of these strategies. I think she relied on her military training, LOL.
We're wondering though, going back to what others have said about siblings' differing dispositions, what's going to happen if and when Child #2 comes along and s/he's a difficult child. Grandaughter's daddy, BTW, was DP's problem child -- I've heard the family stories, and he was a TERROR until he got through high school. His brother was the "good" sibling.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I spend a lot of time in pubs.
quote:
Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel:
*Gasp* So that's where you get all your knowledge from?
Perhaps the thing I think is "not often said in pubs" is in fact said on 0.1% of occasions. Therefore I don't ever remember hearing it said, but Ken hears it quite a lot.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I spend a lot of time in pubs.
*Gasp* So that's where you get all your knowledge from?
Actually, maybe it is, for some kinds of knowledge!
I mean, in the last few weeks - say since just before Easter - I have met in bars and at least brieftly talked to (mostly not long or serious conversations of course, but some are) people whose present or past occupations might be described as (in alphabetical order): actor, bar staff [of course], builder, chef, childcare worker, city trader, cleaner, computer programmer, cook, curate, dancer, DJ, drug dealer [allegedly], electrician, fire fighter, foster parent, gangster [his word, not mine], gardener, gas fitter, hairdresser, hotelkeeper, housing officers, journalist, local government officer, magazine editor, manager in a bank, motorbike courier, musician, nursery nurse, painter and decorator, permanently unemployed, photographer plumber, police officer, postman, premises manager, printer, residential care worker, restaurant owner, roofer, sailor, scaffolder, school dinner lady, security guard, shop assistant, soldier, student, taxi driver, teacher, teaching assistant, train driver, used car dealer, van driver, and waiter.
For a version of "bar" that includes a couple of pubs, the bar in the college I work in, a football ground, and a drink after a funeral.
That's a wider slcie of society than I am likely to meet at work or even at church. And conversations are more likely in a pub than at work or church.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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