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Source: (consider it) Thread: UK Ordinariate ordination list for 2012 released
Sooze
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Oh my days doctrine schmoctrine, I will just go back to my extremely taxing and challenging job as a prison chaplain tomorrow morning and get on with the work of the Gospel. I hold to the view that if I am saved by Christ even though he is male and I am female then my gender does not affect any doctrine of priesthood - a doctrine of humanity rather than gender. What is the justification for a doctrine of male priesthood apart from it arising from a secular convention of 2000 years ago which kept women uneducated and therefore incapable of spiritual authority?
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Zach82
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quote:
That'd be the Bible and it's divinely inspired and revealed table of contents, would it, Zach82?
I am not sure what you are asking. Anglicans and Roman Catholics agree that the Bible is infallible. Roman Catholic theology has a system of interpreting those Scriptures infallibly and Anglicanism doesn't. I've hardly said anything that's controversial.

quote:
Oh my days doctrine schmoctrine...
Revelation from God is the basis of Christian action. A Christian cannot, therefore, consign doctrine to irrelevance. There must be a scriptural case for the ordination of women if there is to be a Christian case for it.

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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by Sooze:
Oh my days doctrine schmoctrine, I will just go back to my extremely taxing and challenging job as a prison chaplain tomorrow morning and get on with the work of the Gospel. I hold to the view that if I am saved by Christ even though he is male and I am female then my gender does not affect any doctrine of priesthood - a doctrine of humanity rather than gender. What is the justification for a doctrine of male priesthood apart from it arising from a secular convention of 2000 years ago which kept women uneducated and therefore incapable of spiritual authority?

I am terribly sorry, Sooze, that won't pass muster. Tomorrow, I too will go back to my extremely taxing and challenging job too but it is entirely irrelevant to the question at hand. If it weren't a Dead Horse, I'd suggest that you learn some history so that you could familiarise yourself with the gender characteristics of spiritual authority in the ancient world. Instead, how about you agree to answer the question you were asked, so that we can come to understand why your view of this matter should trump that of those who say that you are wrong. We could also agree to do it without dealing with an issue in which you are obviously and understandably invested. In the alternative, we could draw the conclusion that you don't have an answer other than " because it feels right to me".

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I am not sure what you are asking. Anglicans and Roman Catholics agree that the Bible is infallible. Roman Catholic theology has a system of interpreting those Scriptures infallibly and Anglicanism doesn't. I've hardly said anything that's controversial.

I was suggesting - lamely - that according such infallibility to the Bible without according, in logical priority, the same infallibility to the body that decided what was and what was not "the Bible", seemed problematic.

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Sooze
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It is not because 'it feels right to me'. I have submitted my perception of calling to the discernment of the church and undergone the fairly rigorous process of having my vocation tested. The passages of Scrpiture which give me most confidence in taking on priestly authority are those in which Jesus encourages women to preach, anoint and learn; the woman with the issue of blood, the women who anointed Jesus and Mary of Bethany. Jesus did not ordain anyone priest, male or female, but he went out of his way to encourage them.
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Steve H
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quote:
Originally posted by Sooze:
I am very grateful for Steve H's posts, it's about time Anglicans stood up for the ordination of women as a positive change inspired by the Holy Spirit moving in the church. I have yet to hear a convincing account of what opponents think is happening to women who feel that they have been called by God to serve as priests. We have had our vocations tested by the church and many of us have been ministering successfully for years now. If this were not of God, how would we be doing it?

Hooray!

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Steve H
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Anglicans and Roman Catholics agree that the Bible is infallible.

No, we don't. I'm an Anglican, and I certainly don't regard the Bible as infallible. There are whole sections of it that are thoroughly wicked.

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Zach82
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quote:
I was suggesting - lamely - that according such infallibility to the Bible without according, in logical priority, the same infallibility to the body that decided what was and what was not "the Bible", seemed problematic.
Perhaps. There is a certain point where Scripture and tradition are essentially the same, and at this point faith in Jesus demands faith in Jesus' Church. Calling the Holy Scriptures infallible, in my personal case, is to make the Apostles' experience of the risen Christ the basis of all Christian life.

Faith in the Church does not mean faith that the Church is always right. Rather, one believes that this particular community was founded by Christ, and that this community experiences Christ in a manner not available elsewhere. The Church might err from time to time, but Jesus has promised that the gates of hell will never prevail, and so long as the community keeps the marks of Scripture, episcopacy, and the sacraments, one can be certain that Jesus will bring the community to his truth once again.

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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by Sooze:
It is not because 'it feels right to me'. I have submitted my perception of calling to the discernment of the church and undergone the fairly rigorous process of having my vocation tested. The passages of Scrpiture which give me most confidence in taking on priestly authority are those in which Jesus encourages women to preach, anoint and learn; the woman with the issue of blood, the women who anointed Jesus and Mary of Bethany. Jesus did not ordain anyone priest, male or female, but he went out of his way to encourage them.

So that's a no then.

Sooze, what you have outlined is how it worked for you to validate what you discerned in an organisation that has already come to the conclusion that a particular doctrinal development is right. What you haven't done, or even attempted to do, is to explain how that organisation can validate or otherwise a particular development. You see, there are many who don't think the particular development related to your ministry is an authentic development and they justify their argument in a number of ways, none of which go anywhere near the issues you raise, but have to do with particular scriptural and theological understandings. Given the opportunity to do the same, you decline to go beyond a circular and entirely self-referential assertion.

My academic work is concerned with the development of doctrine and I had hoped you might have something to say to that broader question.

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Zach82
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
No, we don't. I'm an Anglican, and I certainly don't regard the Bible as infallible. There are whole sections of it that are thoroughly wicked.

I suggest you do some study of the methods of scriptural exegesis and how the Bible is used in Christian theology. Christian theology does not, for example, generally propose that God goes about making bets with the devil no matter what the book of Job might say.

[ 26. May 2012, 21:40: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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Pyx_e

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quote:
My academic work is concerned with the development of doctrine and I had hoped you might have something to say to that broader question.
Wow, I think you just got your metaphorical dick out and demanded a weigh in. With a woman.

AtB, Pyx_e

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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Wow, I think you just got your metaphorical dick out and demanded a weigh in. With a woman.

AtB, Pyx_e

Oh shit. What a berk. I am, nevertheless, really interested in the answer.

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Zach82
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As a theologian myself, I have to protest the proposition that theological training is nothing in theological discussions.

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Pyx_e

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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Wow, I think you just got your metaphorical dick out and demanded a weigh in. With a woman.

AtB, Pyx_e

Oh shit. What a berk. I am, nevertheless, really interested in the answer.
As would I, as a champion of wooly thinking I think the force is strong in this one, come Sooze speak with us. This is not the doctrine we are looking for?

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Pyx_e

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quote:
As a theologian myself....
Jebus, it's catching.

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seasick

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A theologian is one who prays...

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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

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Zach82
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quote:
A theologian is one who prays...
It's a cute sentiment, but surely you will grant that knowledge of scripture and the ability to discern its propositions intellectually counts for something. Otherwise the Christian faith is left with nothing but feelings.

I rather think that the Christian message is to the whole human person, and insofar as the human person has a brain, then there must be an intellectual appeal as well. Theologians examine what that intellectual appeal is.

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seasick

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I'd say they only find their proper context in a life of prayer. I think it's rather more than a cute notion and I'd say it's foundational to theological methodology.

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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

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Zach82
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quote:
I'd say they only find their proper context in a life of prayer. I think it's rather more than a cute notion and I'd say it's foundational to theological methodology.
That is obviously true. What seems obviously false, to me, is that prayer is sufficient to participate in theological debate without according understanding of Scripture and doctrine. That's the upshot of Pyx's objection.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:

The Church of England wasn't making concessions to them: it was making arrangements to respect their conscientious adherence to the understanding of Holy Orders that had been the Church of England's doctrine for the four hundred and sixty years of its existence, in continuity with the doctrine held by the Catholic and Orthodox churches for two thousand. When these men were ordained the CofE didn't ordain women. ....

Although I can see how looking from 'now', this might appear to be the case but I don't think that's actually true.

Whether women can or should be ordained has only become an issue in the last sixty or so years. Before then, it wasn't because almost nobody had thought of doing so.

However, if one looks at RC polemic against the CofE in earlier centuries, certainly including Apostolicae Curae, it is quite clear that to those on the Roman side of the argument, the CofE's understanding of Holy Orders is not the same as theirs, for reasons that have nothing to do with whether women should be ordained, and which are not changed by that step.

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:
Going back to the opening post, there are a couple of candidates named on the list who have not been ordained, instead their ordination has been "deferred". Does this mean that it will take place at a later date, or is this "deferment" a polite way of saying "thanks but no thanks, we've changed our minds, we don't think you are suitable for the priesthood" ?

I gather that it likely, but not necessarily, meanhs that the RC authorities are still processing the files. In times past, this could take a few years, but their dossiers are (by Vatican standards) being fast-tracked. I imagine that it is possible that for a few of them, the close examination may find problems but my contacts tell me that unlikely cases are usually weeded out at an earlier stage (usually to do with complicated marital situations). I am also told that a few will have to take a further year of make-up studies, depending on the rigour of their Anglican training.
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Steve H
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
No, we don't. I'm an Anglican, and I certainly don't regard the Bible as infallible. There are whole sections of it that are thoroughly wicked.

I suggest you do some study of the methods of scriptural exegesis and how the Bible is used in Christian theology. Christian theology does not, for example, generally propose that God goes about making bets with the devil no matter what the book of Job might say.
Well, there you are, then - my point exactly!

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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
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Steve H
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quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
A theologian is one who prays...

...but most people who pray are not theologians, so that definition is about as useful as defining 'animal' as 'cat'.

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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
However, if one looks at RC polemic against the CofE in earlier centuries, certainly including Apostolicae Curae, it is quite clear that to those on the Roman side of the argument, the CofE's understanding of Holy Orders is not the same as theirs, for reasons that have nothing to do with whether women should be ordained, and which are not changed by that step.

True but hardly the point. We are not talking about a change in the Catholic view of Anglican Orders but the change in the self-understanding of the Anglican doctrine of orders. As Honest Ron Bacardi said up thread, it used to be said that the CofE had no doctrine of its own distinct from that of the "church catholic". Leaving aside what that arch expression means, it can hardly argue that in ordaining women that it doesn't have a distinct doctrine of Orders, distinct that it from the most likely candidates for the rest of the church catholic.

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Pyx_e

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
I'd say they only find their proper context in a life of prayer. I think it's rather more than a cute notion and I'd say it's foundational to theological methodology.
That is obviously true. What seems obviously false, to me, is that prayer is sufficient to participate in theological debate without according understanding of Scripture and doctrine. That's the upshot of Pyx's objection.
No.

The upshot of my objection is you astound me with the depth, width, humour, kindness and compassion of your theology.

Not tell me you are theologian first as some sort of unsubtle reminder that you have read more books than me or as if it adds something special to what you are about to tell me.

Half the "academics" and "theologians" I know are actively hiding from God in thier books.

Maybe we could have a theological thread on humility. Not that I need one, of course, but you I'm not so sure.

AtB, Pyx_e

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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Doublethink.
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Sooze:
Oh my days doctrine schmoctrine, I will just go back to my extremely taxing and challenging job as a prison chaplain tomorrow morning and get on with the work of the Gospel. I hold to the view that if I am saved by Christ even though he is male and I am female then my gender does not affect any doctrine of priesthood - a doctrine of humanity rather than gender. What is the justification for a doctrine of male priesthood apart from it arising from a secular convention of 2000 years ago which kept women uneducated and therefore incapable of spiritual authority?

I am terribly sorry, Sooze, that won't pass muster. Tomorrow, I too will go back to my extremely taxing and challenging job too but it is entirely irrelevant to the question at hand. If it weren't a Dead Horse, I'd suggest that you learn some history so that you could familiarise yourself with the gender characteristics of spiritual authority in the ancient world. Instead, how about you agree to answer the question you were asked, so that we can come to understand why your view of this matter should trump that of those who say that you are wrong. We could also agree to do it without dealing with an issue in which you are obviously and understandably invested. In the alternative, we could draw the conclusion that you don't have an answer other than " because it feels right to me".
We Quakers have a method - but no priesthood. However, I mention this because I would have thought that the cofe would hold that the synod is subject to the inspiration of the holy spirit.

[ 27. May 2012, 08:01: Message edited by: Think˛ ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Steve H
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Good old Quakers! I was an 'attender' for some years in my youth (thank heavens the Quakers came up with that name for a non-member who worships with them before the coining of the ridiculous modern version 'attendee'), and often wish I'd stayed with them and joined.

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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:

True but hardly the point. We are not talking about a change in the Catholic view of Anglican Orders but the change in the self-understanding of the Anglican doctrine of orders. As Honest Ron Bacardi said up thread, it used to be said that the CofE had no doctrine of its own distinct from that of the "church catholic". Leaving aside what that arch expression means, it can hardly argue that in ordaining women that it doesn't have a distinct doctrine of Orders, distinct that it from the most likely candidates for the rest of the church catholic.

Yes, it is the point.

Within the CofE people hold different views about Orders. One difference between the CofE and the RC church is that in the CofE this is legitimate. What has driven people to join the Ordinariate, is that they have taken their view of the nature of Orders from the RC church, and regarded all other views as wrong. Their view is that that black and white position is not compatible with decisions the rest of the CofE has taken that they do not agree with. These now relate not just to belief but to praxis - and I know that statement is itself an inherently CofE one that no RC or Calvinist could ever countenance. So it has produced a situation that forces them to do something about it.

There's been discussion earlier in the thread about the misleading impression groups of people get of a church's general position by only talking to people who are eucumenically already sympathetic towards them.

It looks clear from outside the RC church, that the official position there is that the exact RC position on Orders, as on the Papacy, is of the esse of the church, not the bene esse. There are some people in the CofE who think their understanding of Orders is of the esse. That is not though the general position. Ordination of women to whichever order, plays this out, is a consequence, not a cause or a change.

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Zach82
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quote:
No.

The upshot of my objection is you astound me with the depth, width, humour, kindness and compassion of your theology.

Not tell me you are theologian first as some sort of unsubtle reminder that you have read more books than me or as if it adds something special to what you are about to tell me.

What's the difference from what I said you said? It's looking to be the difference between "Education counts for nothing" and "Education doesn't matter."

I just happen to think the education counts for something, even in the Christian tradition. For starters, someone who has read the Bible has more to offer a doctrinal debate than someone who hasn't.

quote:
Half the "academics" and "theologians" I know are actively hiding from God in thier books.

Maybe we could have a theological thread on humility. Not that I need one, of course, but you I'm not so sure.

Cute scare quotes, but so what? I'm not saying the educated are better people. I am saying they know more about the Christian tradition.

You know, if this is such a bitter point for you, there are correspondence courses for theology all over the place. Some of them a pretty good.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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CL
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:
Going back to the opening post, there are a couple of candidates named on the list who have not been ordained, instead their ordination has been "deferred". Does this mean that it will take place at a later date, or is this "deferment" a polite way of saying "thanks but no thanks, we've changed our minds, we don't think you are suitable for the priesthood" ?

I gather that it likely, but not necessarily, meanhs that the RC authorities are still processing the files. In times past, this could take a few years, but their dossiers are (by Vatican standards) being fast-tracked. I imagine that it is possible that for a few of them, the close examination may find problems but my contacts tell me that unlikely cases are usually weeded out at an earlier stage (usually to do with complicated marital situations). I am also told that a few will have to take a further year of make-up studies, depending on the rigour of their Anglican training.
For the four men concerned at this stage it's simply a matter of the necessary paperwork being signed off on by the relevant parties, e.g. the Pope signing the Dispensation from Celibacy. If there were any serious obstacle to ordination involved their names would never have appeared on the list to begin with.

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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria

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The Man with a Stick
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quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:
Going back to the opening post, there are a couple of candidates named on the list who have not been ordained, instead their ordination has been "deferred". Does this mean that it will take place at a later date, or is this "deferment" a polite way of saying "thanks but no thanks, we've changed our minds, we don't think you are suitable for the priesthood" ?

Aggie, I'll do my bit to drag the thread back on track!

Getting somebody ordained in the Ordinariate requires a phenomenal amount of paperwork. Dossier sent to the CDF, references from Anglican Bishop (yes, really), approval for "accelerated" training, approval of the Holy Father (for those non-celibates), 'votum' of the Ordinary, 'votum' of the local Bishop, permission of the ordaining Bishop etc etc

A "normal" Catholic ordinand has several years to get this in place. Some Ordinariate ordinands have only had a few weeks.

This is a very long way of saying that I believe there's just a hold up in the paperwork of a few. Somebody noted yesterday that the delayed ones appeared to be concentrated in the Southwark area. They'll likely be Deaconed very soon after the paperwork is in place and a space in the local bishop's diary can be found.

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Rosa Winkel

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I wish the men well.

I'm a great believer that God manages to bring good out of all manner of imperfect people and structures.

As someone who supports OoW I have found it useful to learn that some who oppose OoW are not the mad sexist bastards which some characterise them to be, but rather people who are genuinely concerned about ecumenism, and that this includes many women, women who don't see themselves to be victims of male sexism.

Saying that, exhortations to "learn some history" are not particularly helpful, it's like saying "I know more than you, so you should learn what I know".

Or we could call each other a load of twats, if that makes us feel better.

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SeraphimSarov
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Rosa !
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CL
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Bringing things back on topic, the background of one of the ordinands, Rev. Mr. Franklin C. Watts, is interesting. He is an American, an ex-USAF chaplain and a former APA and CEC priest. That makes him the first non-TAC Continuing Anglican clergyman to be ordained for an Ordinariate.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Whether women can or should be ordained has only become an issue in the last sixty or so years. Before then, it wasn't because almost nobody had thought of doing so.

Much longer ago than that. Maude Roydon started The Society for the Ministry of Women in 1929. See this.

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Jengie jon

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Enoch

You know so little about women's ordination that it is laughable. First woman ordained* in the Free Churches in England was 1914 (although the Unitarians got there quicker in 1904). I do not suppose these suddenly appeared without campaigns somehow.

Jengie

* I am aware of something in the Early days of Methodism whether women evangelists, preachers or ministers I am not sure. It did not become part of normative Methodist practice then.

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Steve H
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The Sally Army has had female officers from the start.

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Herbert Butterfield.

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Sooze
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I've had a really draining day at work, a prisoner tried to hang himself, so too tired to make a sensible contribution. However, I think it is possibly the case that our attitude towards doctrine differs between the CofE and the Catholic Church. Maybe Anglicans are not so quick to define doctrine or to be concerned about how doctrine is developed. Within the CofE there is such a breadth of valid opinions on quite important subjects so maybe we don't have the same need to have a concensus, particularly with something that is so relatively recent. Could it be that the Catholic church operates differently and would not do anything without first working out the doctrine? Is the answer to the question that the CofE uses synod to come to decisions? ( Btw It's not that I am against theology either, I have a BA in Theology from Oxford University).
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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Enoch

You know so little about women's ordination that it is laughable. First woman ordained* in the Free Churches in England was 1914 (although the Unitarians got there quicker in 1904). I do not suppose these suddenly appeared without campaigns somehow.

Jengie

* I am aware of something in the Early days of Methodism whether women evangelists, preachers or ministers I am not sure. It did not become part of normative Methodist practice then.

I am hesitant to speak for Enoch, who is a big boy and can likely answer for himself, but it might be that he was only thinking of OWP in the context of the churches which focus on the three-fold apostolic ministry in the catholic tradition. From this viewpoint, it might be that ordination in the free churches is not on the same page as in the CoE/RCC. I know that, in the Canadian debate on OWP, almost no reference was made by anybody to the (then) half-century-old experience of women ministers in the United Church.

[ 27. May 2012, 23:10: Message edited by: Augustine the Aleut ]

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Net Spinster
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
The Sally Army has had female officers from the start.

The Quakers had women ministers from the start though their definition of minister was somewhat different. Margaret Fell wrote "Women's Speaking Justified" in 1666 as defense of women speaking in public. Elizabeth Fry was a recorded minister.

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Barnabas62
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Well, after wrestling successfully with one Dead Horse recently in Purg I feel emboldened to wrestle with another.

The role of women in the church is a Dead Horse.

Please take your discussions on that issue to the long-running Priestly Genitalia thread. The DH Hosts have had a tidy up recently, so that's the one to go for.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host


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Zach82
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quote:
Maybe Anglicans are not so quick to define doctrine or to be concerned about how doctrine is developed...
Gawd I hope Anglicans give a thought to whether their actions are consistent with the Christian Faith before acting.

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Pyx_e

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Zach, to be clear. Theology is a “good thing.” I like it, I do it, I encourage it.

My point was never theology/learning is a ”bad thing.”

My point is that starting a sentence on the Ship with a phrase like ”As an Academic.......” or “Because I have several degrees in theology..........” is a buggers trick. It is showing off, It could be used to intimidate and stifle discussion, it is trying to win the argument without making the argument and it is unnecessary.

Make your theological points well and they will stand. My understanding is that here on the Ship all that matters is the argument, this is “the level playing field” we all dream of. Not who you are, what you are or how many letters you have after your name. Simply the persuasiveness of what you are writing.

I am, all at the same time, very happy for you to be a theologian and very happy for you to shut up about it. Use your hard won knowledge well but please do not think I take your arguments any more seriously than anyone else’s (in fact I am probably more dismissive of those who have to brag).

And I kind of stand by my point that it is possible to be an expert on theology and not know the Gospel.

AtB, Pyx_e

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Steve H
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quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
The Sally Army has had female officers from the start.

The Quakers had women ministers from the start though their definition of minister was somewhat different. Margaret Fell wrote "Women's Speaking Justified" in 1666 as defense of women speaking in public. Elizabeth Fry was a recorded minister.
This is very true, and is one of many reasons why I'm a great admirer of both Quakers and Sallys, and have, at different times, worshipped with both.

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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.

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Barnabas62
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Please follow this guideline.

Any further "role of women in the church" posts here will attract a formal warning.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host


[ 28. May 2012, 10:24: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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CL
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In other news Bishop Harry Entwistle of the Anglican Catholic Church of Australia (TAC) will be ordained a Catholic priest on June 15th in St Mary's Cathedral in Perth, the same day as the erection of the Australian Ordinariate. This would seem to be a pretty good indication that he will be named Ordinary.

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Gee D
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The ACC of Australia is a tiny body. There is a congregation in the far NW of Victoria, with about 40 or so members. Near to us, an even smaller group meets in a chapel in a nursing home; my understanding is that the priest has a lay occupation as well. I don't know of any others.

The TAC is a bit larger, principally because a tragic split in the Anglican Diocese in Northern Queensland led to the establishment of the Church of the Torres Strait. The ACC of Aust comes under the general umbrella of the TAC. The previous Archbishop of the TAC, ++John Hepworth, has had an "interesting" matrimonial career, one which would not appeal to any Vatican official, and one which would make it extremely unlikely that he would be appointed ordinary. The TAC rejected ++John's moves to make it the basis of any Australian Ordinariate.

I suspect that apart from the Church of the Torres Strait, the numbers joining the ordinariate will be very small indeed, making no difference to the Anglican Church of Australia, or the Roman Catholic Church here.

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CL
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The ACC of Australia is a tiny body. There is a congregation in the far NW of Victoria, with about 40 or so members. Near to us, an even smaller group meets in a chapel in a nursing home; my understanding is that the priest has a lay occupation as well. I don't know of any others.

The TAC is a bit larger, principally because a tragic split in the Anglican Diocese in Northern Queensland led to the establishment of the Church of the Torres Strait. The ACC of Aust comes under the general umbrella of the TAC. The previous Archbishop of the TAC, ++John Hepworth, has had an "interesting" matrimonial career, one which would not appeal to any Vatican official, and one which would make it extremely unlikely that he would be appointed ordinary. The TAC rejected ++John's moves to make it the basis of any Australian Ordinariate.

I suspect that apart from the Church of the Torres Strait, the numbers joining the ordinariate will be very small indeed, making no difference to the Anglican Church of Australia, or the Roman Catholic Church here.

Hepworth was already told some time ago that he can only return to the Catholic Church as a layman.

Also it is rumoured, though I have no idea of the veracity of the rumour, that FiF Australia will be decamping en masse to the Australian Ordinariate.

The Church of the Torres Strait has requested a seperate Ordinariate, though it's too soon to say at this point whether this request will be granted as there are several practical problems to be overcome.

[ 28. May 2012, 12:26: Message edited by: CL ]

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Fifi
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quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:
Going back to the opening post, there are a couple of candidates named on the list who have not been ordained, instead their ordination has been "deferred". Does this mean that it will take place at a later date, or is this "deferment" a polite way of saying "thanks but no thanks, we've changed our minds, we don't think you are suitable for the priesthood" ?

More likely because someone in an office somewhere south of a river failed to get some forms in the post to someone in an office somewhere abroad - according to the gossip, that is.
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Bishops Finger
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One, at least, of the list of priests in the OP is known to me by repute, if not personally. He has, in fact, retired (at an advanced age) from his post in the C of E before joining the Ordinariate (which IMHO is to his credit), and will probably take a few of his small congregation with him. This may well leave a ? or two over the future of his former parish, but that's a matter for his erstwhile Archdeacon and Bishop.

If, however, this sort of thing is common, it hardly bodes well for the future of the Ordinariate in the UK as a recognisable entity. What's more (and this is, to me, most encouraging), I learn that parishes in this area which have lost priest(s) and/or laity to the Ordinariate are busily and happily picking up the pieces, moving on (with improved relationships with Diocese and Diocesan Bishop), and affirming their continuing positive relationship with the rest of the Church of England without ditching their trad/conservative/catholic credentials......a work, IMHO, of the Holy Spirit. The recent installation of a new Vicar in a parish whose priest (and a few laity) went to the Ordinariate a while ago saw +Edmonton and +Rochester working well in tandem, to the edification and delight of the faithful. Long may this sort of positive working together continue!

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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