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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: (Plymouth) Brethren
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I spent over a year in an Open Brethren assembly in Malta whilst doing my National Service.
General Dobbie, who headed up Malta during WWII was Brethren, as was his nephew Orde Wingate of Chindits fame.
Yes, I had forgotten that.
On the critique by no_prophet, I would in general agree. During my days with them (1950's-60's) I was naive and a Good Little Evangelical so was glad to be cared-for, fussed-over. And the Malta Anglicans and Methodists (whose churches I never sort out) were anathema.
I do, however, suspect that much has changed within Brethren circles in UK these days.
Come to think of it - I've not seen the characteristic simple head-scarves of the female Exclusives for a few years.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
The things I would note:
-excessive guilt
-self denial
-biblical literalism in degrees
-personal adherence to their version of Christianity
-self righteousness and judgementalism
-God seems pretty stern and a taskmaster
-more guilt, and repressed emotions.
Yes, a friend of mine was brought up Brethren. She still suffers from excessive guilt.
Her son is a fine, hard working, caring family man - but she can't get rid of her upset that he isn't married. This is spoiling her relationship with him/them.
![[Frown]](frown.gif) ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I spent over a year in an Open Brethren assembly in Malta whilst doing my National Service.
General Dobbie, who headed up Malta during WWII was Brethren, as was his nephew Orde Wingate of Chindits fame.
Didn't know that. The ones I grew up with were, generally, conscientious objectors. At least one of whom spent some time in front line medical rescue services.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
In Scotland we had a very rigid Brethern "church", where the women and children had to have long hair and things on it, and who were a problem and later closed down after the man in charge higher up in Scotland behaved badly...
This wouldn't be James Taylor jr and the Aberdeen incident would it?
Yes, that specific incident is what made all the ones in our place get out and close it down.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
My memories of the Brethren are now quite old, but remain very unpleasant. As a child I attended the Baptist Church, but from 1968-69, for 18 months, I worshipped with the Brethren. Though I think they were open rather than exclusive, women had to cover their heads and weren't allowed to speak during the service. They all had an anti-Catholic loathing. They were all new earth creationists, who wouldn't entertain the idea of fellowship with non-Christians. They were run by a small group of elders, who hated all aspects of the spirit of the 60's. at morning service, people sat around until someone, men only, felt inspired to stand up and give a lesson. Eventually, an elder would get up and say, "Let us give thanks and break the bread." Served with unfermented grape juice, because alcohol was seriously verboten.
As a mid teenager, I was very much into 60's culture. Astronony and evolution, both of which I studied at school and loved, made me feel that this creationism was a total load of baloney. One evening service, a guest speaker told of how he'd just come back from holiday, but had been unable to have any fellowship with any of the non-Christians he'd met on the tour. Over the cup of tea afterwards, I said to him, "It's a good thing that Jesus didn't feel that way." It all went silent, and I felt like Oliver Twist when he asked for more! I then realised that I could stand no more of their loveless, bigoted, narrow minded crap that they had the audacity to call "good news." Two of the elders of this church assured me that I'd made a pact with the devil, and would surely burn with him in the Lake of Fire. These people put me off Christianit for 25 years, and even now, 43 years later, I shudder at that manifestation of Christianity
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
An interesting story. Back in 1976 I was in north-east Scotland (Fraserburgh) helping conduct a mission in the Pentecostal church. In the congregation were quite a number of folk who'd defected from the Brethren after the Taylor scandal.
The general opinion was that the Exclusives, realising they needed to be more visible and less introverted if such a thing was not to happen again, had become much more open. The Opens, on the other hand, had tended to close ranks in order to make sure that they did not become tainted ...
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Eventually, an elder would get up and say, "Let us give thanks and break the bread." Served with unfermented grape juice, because alcohol was seriously verboten.
The (Open) Assembly I attended in Southampton around the same time used Port at Communion, although most if not all of its members were teetotal at other times.
One day - having worshipped there for some time - I felt 'led' to break the bread and serve the wine. Afterwards a fellow-student came up to me and said,"You shouldn't have done that, the Elders won't be pleased". But nothing could have been further from the truth - they were delighted.
[ 12. May 2012, 10:10: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
No Prophet I can see what's wrong with your other charges but,
"personal adherence to their version of Christianity".
I must be missing something. That seems an odd failing. I'd be very suspicious of any sort of Christian conviction that could not be described that way. Can't you be charged with that? Or are you saying that your version is the true and universal one against which all others stand or fall?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
The things I would note:
-excessive guilt
-self denial
-biblical literalism in degrees
-personal adherence to their version of Christianity
-self righteousness and judgementalism
-God seems pretty stern and a taskmaster
-more guilt, and repressed emotions.
Yes, a friend of mine was brought up Brethren. She still suffers from excessive guilt.
Her son is a fine, hard working, caring family man - but she can't get rid of her upset that he isn't married. This is spoiling her relationship with him/them.
I think a lot of Christian mothers would feel uneasy about this, not just Brethren ones. But of course, it depends on what kind of Christian you are. Some have a high regard for marriage. It's probably better not to nag, though, because that just gets on people's nerves.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I spent over a year in an Open Brethren assembly in Malta whilst doing my National Service.
General Dobbie, who headed up Malta during WWII was Brethren, as was his nephew Orde Wingate of Chindits fame.
Didn't know that. The ones I grew up with were, generally, conscientious objectors. At least one of whom spent some time in front line medical rescue services.
I don't think there was ever a universal "line" on military service amongst the Brethren.
Some served, some were conscientious objectors, and some. like my father-in-law, refused to bear arms but served in medical units.
FiL also conscientiously objected to voting, which is compulsory in Australia.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Possibly some confusion between the Church of the Brethren and the Plymouth/Open brethren, maybe?
The former is a pacifist peace church which did refuse to participate in war. I don't know a lot about them, but I believe they're not evangelical or calvinistic.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I spent over a year in an Open Brethren assembly in Malta whilst doing my National Service.
General Dobbie, who headed up Malta during WWII was Brethren, as was his nephew Orde Wingate of Chindits fame.
Didn't know that. The ones I grew up with were, generally, conscientious objectors. At least one of whom spent some time in front line medical rescue services.
I don't think there was ever a universal "line" on military service amongst the Brethren.
Some served, some were conscientious objectors, and some. like my father-in-law, refused to bear arms but served in medical units.
FiL also conscientiously objected to voting, which is compulsory in Australia.
Given the fierce independence of Brethren Assemblies, I'm not surprised by variations re conscientious objection. The old boys in the church I joined all those years ago who might have served during WW2 were all conscientious objectors. But one or two others who were younger did National Service (at the time it was compulsory).
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Anthony Crosland's father, who was an active (what's the singular? not 'Brother', surely?) member of the Brethren, was a very senior official in the British War Office.
Small tangent maybe, but thinking of Crosland (high minded higher-middle or lower-higher middle class)would I be right in thinking that some English Brethren are a bit posher than Protestant non-conformists in England generally are? If so, can anyone suggest why this might be?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Anthony Crosland's father, who was an active (what's the singular? not 'Brother', surely?) member of the Brethren
Actually, that is precisely what it is - or was, at least. And "Sisters" for the ladies.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
would I be right in thinking that some English Brethren are a bit posher than Protestant non-conformists in England generally are?
See my initial post. Mind you my deputy headmaster (he tried to teach my German) was a Congregationalist.
Maybe it was just the protestant work ethic enhanced by a sense of social isolation.
[ 12. May 2012, 16:38: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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CuppaT
Shipmate
# 10523
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Posted
This is my Christian heritage as well. I did not know that I was a Plymouth Brethren, though, until I was filling out a college application and had to fill in the denomination blank. I had always been taught that we were simply Christians. I have always been thankful for my heritage and the things that I learned there in the chapel growing up. My childhood there is a large part of my spiritual formation. But I was in the PB denomination only until age 17 when I left for college, away from home and out of state. Then I went exploring, so to speak, studying is more like it, and never looked back.
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Stand at the brink of the abyss of despair, and when you see that you cannot bear it any longer, draw back a little and have a cup of tea.
~Elder Sophrony
Posts: 919 | From: the edge of the Ozarks | Registered: Oct 2005
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
The only contact I have had with Brethren was in the late 70’s at university, when one of the girls on my course was Plymouth Brethren - that's what she called herself.
When she went to university her family disowned her and she was not allowed to go home again or to see any of them. Her mum used to write to her but it had to be secretly. I guess they must have been exclusive.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I have touched base with the Brethren only on rare occasions. And suspect they were more 'Open' than 'Plymouth' even though they were quite strict in some areas.
I used to work at a boarding school for special needs pupils, which had a Brethren foundation (although other people could work there, they were expected to be Christians or in sympathy with the Christian faith). School assemblies - very Gospel-orientated - were compulsory for students and staff, but Sunday church services were optional. The only time I saw pressure put on students was that it was expected at their leaving service that they would make a declaration of faith as well as say how grateful they were to the school for their education. Some pupils defied this, which wasn't accepted too well by the Brethren headteacher.
My second contact was at college, where some friends were Brethren. I went to one of their services, which appeared to be similar to the Quakers in that they sat around in silence until someone spoke and gave a message. But they were different from the Quakers in that it was only the men who spoke, and the women had to wear little headscarves. I was given one especially for the occasion, otherwise I wouldn't have been allowed in. Strangely, if you went to the morning service, you didn't have to wear a headscarf, but in the evening service you did - something that didn't really make sense to me.
I also went with these friends to a Brethren houseparty - a Christian weekend camp. It was much like any other youth camp except for a few extra rules - eg. no playing table tennis and other games on Sunday, you were supposed to sit quietly on your bed, preferably reading the Bible. No buying anything, not even an ice cream on the beach, on Sundays. There was a particular talk I remember about charismatics and gifts of the Spirit, which were roundly condemned as being only for Biblical times - Christians who believed in such things were deluded. Also another talk about finding a godly partner, not to be paired with an ungodly one, and that God would show each man a suitable (ie. quiet and submissive) wife. I remember getting quite hot under the collar during the talks and muttering under my breath - at which the young pastor turned round and winked at me! He'd make a good shipmate as I think he was enjoying being rather unrestful. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I had huge respect for some very dear friends, but wouldn't ever be able to join their church permanently - far too many restrictions for my wilful and rebellious nature.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
They are the only Christian denomination we Irish can claim to have founded. Given how busy the English have been founding denominations its nice that we get to claim at least one.
In 'Goodbye to All That', Robert Graves quoted a man from Limerick, where he was posted towards the end of WW1, saying "Everyone in Ireland dies of drink except for the Plymouth Brethren, who die of religious melancholia".
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
Posts: 439 | From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts | Registered: May 2012
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I spent over a year in an Open Brethren assembly in Malta whilst doing my National Service.
General Dobbie, who headed up Malta during WWII was Brethren, as was his nephew Orde Wingate of Chindits fame.
Brethren influence on the church is out of all proportion to their small numbers. Many have spring boarded away from being PBs to more main line denominations. FF Bruce was a well known theologian who came to our Assembly in Liverpool on a few occasions.
The other area they were strong on was ''the last days'' and prophecy of the eschatological kind. I well remember an old boss of mine explaining Ezekiel 38 & 39 and coming invasion of Israel by Russia.
Orde Wingate was a strong Zionist although not Jewish. He was the founding father of the modern Israel Defence Force (IDF). He set up counter terrorist Jewish night forces that quelled the Arab revolt in the 1930s (in Palestine).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orde_Wingate
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
The other area they were strong on was ''the last days'' and prophecy of the eschatological kind.
Anything to do with prophecy and the last days is by definition eschatological.
What early Brethren such as J.N. Darby invented was the dispensational premillenial variety of eschatology, which many Brethren (such as myself) reject, and which many non-Brethren (such as the authors of the recent and famous Left Behind series) have adopted, largely as a result of the popularity of the Scofield Reference Bible (1909).
Dispensationalism as such is broader than its eschatological application, and in fact consists of an (abortive)attempt at a consistent literalist hermeneutic in which, for example, terms such as "Israel" and "kingdom"
always refer to the actual nation and an actual earthly reign, and never to the church.
[ 13. May 2012, 09:31: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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OhSimone
Shipmate
# 16414
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
The only contact I have had with Brethren was in the late 70’s at university, when one of the girls on my course was Plymouth Brethren - that's what she called herself.
This is interesting - self-identification is a good way of assessing where someone is on the Brethren "spectrum". Unless pushed, and unless the person I asking was familiar with the spectrum, I'd never identify myself as a Brethren Christian - only as a Christian. I'm on the far end of Open, which means that I'm not fussy about a lot of stuff.
The opposite direction is described as getting 'tighter'. That would mean more and more adherence to Brethren principles (head coverings, gender roles, dispensational eschatology, hair cuts and so on). I'd find these Christians more likely to identify themselves as Brethren. I find that most people hear the word Brethren and think of that girl at school that wore a headscarf and gloves and was taken out of assembly - that's definitely not the brethrenism I know.
Posts: 198 | From: The Black Country | Registered: May 2011
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Small tangent maybe, but thinking of Crosland (high minded higher-middle or lower-higher middle class)would I be right in thinking that some English Brethren are a bit posher than Protestant non-conformists in England generally are? If so, can anyone suggest why this might be?
They're a very 'book-ish, word-based' (Bible plus commentaries only) group as a rule (no pictures, no symbols, only music is a-capella singing from 'Little Flock') so tend to attract the more cerebral, educated, intellectual and hence middle-class types.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
There was a particular talk I remember about charismatics and gifts of the Spirit, which were roundly condemned as being only for Biblical times - Christians who believed in such things were deluded.
This, of course, is a natural consequence of their Dispensational approach (and shared by many others): we are "beyond" that Primitive Church age in which these things happened, as we now have the N.T. Scriptures and no longer need gifts such as Prophecy.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
It's probably worth mentioning that many traditional ''open'' Brethren assemblies have either stayed the same, closed down or many have actually remained open and ''moved with the times'' considerably.
Certainly the latter option, moving with the times, in terms of a change in worship and theology has been a common option IMHO here in the UK. It's a diverse picture really and one example cannot fit all.
A short history I came across may be helpful...
http://www.brethrenhistory.org/?pageid=809
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Thanks, Saul. Tim Grass is a good guy.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
That's certainly true. I used to go to Bitterne Gospel Hall in Southampton in the early 1970s - that's closed now and the building seems to be used by a Vineyard Church. On the other hand Gracious Rebel upthread indicated a traditional Gospel Hall she knows in Ipswich.
Talking of Southampton, you would never know from their website that Portswood Church comes from a Brethren background. The International Gospel Church in Burnt Oak, London does mention its roots (but has moved far from them), as does Prince Andrew's Chapel in Aldborough, Norfolk.
(I mention these as they are all churches I have known).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Small tangent maybe, but thinking of Crosland (high minded higher-middle or lower-higher middle class)would I be right in thinking that some English Brethren are a bit posher than Protestant non-conformists in England generally are? If so, can anyone suggest why this might be?
They're a very 'book-ish, word-based' (Bible plus commentaries only) group as a rule (no pictures, no symbols, only music is a-capella singing from 'Little Flock') so tend to attract the more cerebral, educated, intellectual and hence middle-class types.
Yes, that would make sense.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
That's certainly true. I used to go to Bitterne Gospel Hall in Southampton in the early 1970s - that's closed now and the building seems to be used by a Vineyard Church. On the other hand Gracious Rebel upthread indicated a traditional Gospel Hall she knows in Ipswich.
Talking of Southampton, you would never know from their website that Portswood Church comes from a Brethren background. The International Gospel Church in Burnt Oak, London does mention its roots (but has moved far from them), as does Prince Andrew's Chapel in Aldborough, Norfolk.
(I mention these as they are all churches I have known).
BT
your experiences mirror my own. My home church in Liverpool now has a full time Pastor and for all intents and purposes is post Brethren.
The interesting thing is the examples you gave are ones where the churches appear to have moved forwards and this in itself seems very positive.
Most of the ''positive'' is in relation to the Open brethren and I can't make any comments on the Exclusive Brethren as I have no knowledge or experience of them whatsoever.
Anything I have ever heard about the Exclusive wing of the movement was pretty negative and quite shocking. Namely, people being alienated and isolated. It appears very controlling and lacking in love.
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
There used to be a Plymouth Brethren Chapel in my town, but not for many years now (I've found a record from 1911). Not sure what happened to them, but there are at least two independent chapels so maybe some of their descendants went there.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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