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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Word of Faith movement in the UK
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
I see that Randy Clark is speaking at Holy Trinity Brompton in London. I'm getting increasingly worried about this phenomenon coming here to the UK. How can such a high-profile Anglican church like HTB get involved in this stuff? They had Bill Johnson there a few years ago too.
Should one of the Bishop's or even Rowan should get involved? Part of my concern is also selfish. My poor wife is accepting the Word of Faith guff without any scepticism and that has its own consequences.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Desert Daughter
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# 13635
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Posted
Oh dear, the Pond is not deep and wide enough...
Worrying indeed. I cannot understand HTB's involvement. What message do they try to send?
I would think that this is a case where Bishops should get involved...they are meant to be shepherds of their flock, aren't they?
But it seems to be symptomatic of what's going on in the UK and some other countries (France & Spain).
Sorry to hear about your wife. Difficult to get people out of this once they've been mesmerised. May The Force be with you
[ 15. May 2012, 11:18: Message edited by: Desert Daughter ]
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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Horatio Harumph
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# 10855
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Posted
am i the only one who has had to google 'word of faith' movement?
i'll accept i possibly might be ...
i just wanted to ask what your take/view/explanation of 'word of faith' means as maybe your person experience means its something different to a standard answer i just read on wikipedia
only asking out pure ignorance and interest.
ive heard bill johnson speak before, but never really considered what 'category' he came under.
i'm very interested at the moment, and spending time exploring what all the different denominations in thing here Christianity, what they all mean and represent, and also phrases that I'm not so au fait with such as evangelical/liberal/traditional and so on, when it comes to teaching.
so, word of faith movement is what?
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the long ranger
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# 17109
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Posted
I could be wrong, but I understood that Holy Trinity Brompton was heavily into the whole Toronto Blessing thingamejig. Is this guy saying anything different to the whole Vineyard and Toronto gubbins?
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
Randy Clark was also involved in Vineyard and became closely associated with the Todd Bentley scam in Florida a few years ago. Bill Johnson is a much more controversial figure and is discussed here on the Ship quite a bit. The Word of Faith movement concentrates on new revelation, much like the gnostics. Bill John argues that Jesus was 'born again', among other things. The list of weirdness is too long to type.
Here is a pretty good response (from a Baptist perspective) to Bill Johnson's new book When Heaven Invades Earth.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Horatio Harumph
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# 10855
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Posted
interesting ... thank you, i'm going to go have a read now, especially because i know IHOP very well. I have friends who are 'members of staff' so to speak at the central base in KC ... but it isnt something i've read up on much in terms of what they believe/preach etc ...
to be honest, over the years i've been quite disengaged with it all because its hard to know what is 'right' isnt it? but am now starting to explore a lot.
I havnt been a christian overly long, and am part of a wide range of networks, as mentioned above have friends who are part of the IHOP thing, to me, who has largely mostly been involved in UK alt church etc.
i'm now part of an anglican church that describes itself as evangelical ... and i'm on a journey of trying to work out what thats means!
anyway, sorry to ramble, off to read your link ...
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Horatio Harumph
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# 10855
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Posted
wow, what a big sea to dip into ...
so would you say things such as New Wine and Soul Survivor that have these people speak at are part of this word of faith movement?
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
Horatio, that was being discussed on another thread recently. Apparently, New Wine have apologised for booking at least one of the Signs and Wonders speakers (I can't tell where the Signs and Wonders group ands and the Word of Faith starts... or if they're one movement!). The same source said that New Wine were distancing themselves from the Bethel church of Bill Johnson.
It seems that the links with Bill Johnson and IHOP are informal, though I've read that IHOP are receptive to Johnson's teaching.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
Holy Trinity Brompton welcomed a guest speaker involved in the charismatic movement. Charismatic Anglican parishes aren't all that rare. Why should the bishops get involved?
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
HTB do like to be at the forefront of any new Christian movement. I expect the CofE church in my area that likes to do the same will be following this very closely (and even send delegates to listen).
I guess the difference is if a church invites these speakers in order to critically analyse what is said to be aware of new and possibly controversial teachings, or whether they just swallow everything that comes along without questioning it. I would like to hope that any church which invites such speakers allows space for discussion and discernment in the weeks to follow. Or is that asking too much?
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:
wow, what a big sea to dip into ...
so would you say things such as New Wine and Soul Survivor that have these people speak at are part of this word of faith movement?
The thing is that there is sliding scale of sorts; There are obviously the out and out word-faithers, and then there are people who adopting a few of their beliefs.
The trouble is that a lot of people seem to adopt a six-degrees of separation approach to diagnosing problems which tends to make their critiques less than credible (Such and such had so and so speak who endorses this and that also endorsed by someone who endorsed William Branham etc).
I doubt if HTB would endorse the crass version of Word-Faith, however as they are a fairly affluent congregation the temptation would certainly be to err on the side of assuming some correlation between Godliness and the Good Life. One could say the same about the ways in which they sometimes embrace powerful people who seem to be fairly nominally christian.
As Gamaliel observes elsewhere, the CofE roots of HTB, New Wine and others tend to act as a piece of elastic - pulling them away from some of the wilder reaches of such movements.
Which doesn't mean to say they are all benign.
I read the link provided. While I would agree with some of the critique, a lot of it assumes that that Johnson and others have necessarily thought out the logical conclusions of some of their arguments. I don't think that this is the case. I think a lot of Johnson's ideas have parallels with movements like New Thought, but I don't think he has necessarily thought through what it would be for his view of Christology etc.
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
I'm not surprised that HTB have invited someone at the fringes of charismania, but rather to find them flirting with gnostics. All the John Wimber/animal noise stuff was strange enough and probably theologically unsound, but Bill Johnson scene seems to be out-and-out heresy.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
Thanks for that Chris; it gets me thinking.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I see that Randy Clark is speaking at Holy Trinity Brompton in London. I'm getting increasingly worried about this phenomenon coming here to the UK. How can such a high-profile Anglican church like HTB get involved in this stuff? They had Bill Johnson there a few years ago too.
Should one of the Bishop's or even Rowan should get involved? Part of my concern is also selfish. My poor wife is accepting the Word of Faith guff without any scepticism and that has its own consequences.
K.
Your wife is fortunate to have your views for check and balance. I'd like to think that Church leaders would help provide this for their 'flocks', but some are swept up in movements too.
It's wise advice imv to look out for the danger signs of exclusivity, and words of judgement over love.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think there is a subtle difference, be it only one of style, between "word of faith" (more old-school pentecostal) and what I refer to as "kingdom now" proponents (Johnson, Clark, etc).
For further reading, see this recent thread and the older one here. There's another couple languishing in Oblivion somewhere. Googling "Kingdom Now" + "Johnson" + "site:forum.ship-of-fools.com" will take you to printer-friendly versions but not to the original threads. I don't have time to dig them out right now.
I have Randy Clark pegged as self-deluded. I'm far less sure about Johnson.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Horatio Harumph
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# 10855
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Posted
thank you for those ship links ... i had had a little look for related threads but to not much avail, probably looking for the wrong thing x
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I see that Randy Clark is speaking at Holy Trinity Brompton in London. I'm getting increasingly worried about this phenomenon coming here to the UK. How can such a high-profile Anglican church like HTB get involved in this stuff? They had Bill Johnson there a few years ago too.
Should one of the Bishop's or even Rowan should get involved? Part of my concern is also selfish. My poor wife is accepting the Word of Faith guff without any scepticism and that has its own consequences.
K.
I'm a bit horrified to read this. HTB were the innovators of the Alpha course, and I respected them for that.. but now...
Still, as I got out of the C of E, it isn't my problem anymore.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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moonlitdoor
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# 11707
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Posted
I am not sure if Komensky is referring to the HTB leadership conference where Randy Clark spoke, or if he is also preaching at one of the services. The Bishop of London was also speaking at the conference along with Rick Warren and Tony Blair.
I have heard about 10 sermons at HTB over several years, certainly Nicky Gumbel, Archie Coates and Graham Tomlin and maybe some others. I have never heard anyone there suggest that one can claim healing or prosperity or anything else, which are ideas that I would associate with word of faith. I have heard that one should pray and hope for things from God but not that one can claim them.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
As was mentioned above, inviting someone to speak is not exactly an endorsement of everything they say. Nevertheless, a degree of that is certainly implied. Nicky Gumbel certainly pushes the boat out inviting a variety of speakers from Russian Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Pentacostal and other denominations. I think that should be to his credit. However, there ought to be a line, that when someone argues against the essential truths of the Nicene Creed, that more caution is needed. I have, in the past, walked in the HTB circles as an Alpha leader—and there is much to recommend the place—put there is a culture of accepting without skepticism those invited by Nicky. Anyone from the Wimber circle (and I would include the likes of Bill Johnson) are treated as a Saints. While I have quibbles with Wiberism, Johnson is really off the charts in heretical and wacky teachings.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
Moonlitdoor is right, the HTB curates and other preachers don't go over the line, but their guests do. And Nicky is effusive about John Wimber and the laughing hyenas, barking dogs, etc..
I like HTB's ecumenism, but some of this (esp. Bill Johnson) is dangerous stuff. I much prefered HTB's Catholic phase…
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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moonlitdoor
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# 11707
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Posted
I have not heard Randy Clark speak so it would be interesting if you could elaborate on the 'contrary to the Nice Creed' point. I once visited Hillsong in London and the speaker said that anyone in the congregation who wanted to have a baby but had not managed to get pregnant should come forward and he would pray for them, and they would then be able to get pregnant. I was quite shocked but that sort of approach is what I associate with word of faith. But I would not say it was against the creed, as it concerns issues not addressed in the creed.
So I am interested to know what sort of things you had in mind.
I also would be interested if Chris Stiles wants to say more about HTB embracing powerful nominal Christians. I am not sure how one can tell how keen or nominal someone is as people in the public eye in the UK don't tend to speak much about the details of their religious beliefs.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I also would be interested if Chris Stiles wants to say more about HTB embracing powerful nominal Christians.
A good example of this was Tony Blair visiting HTB and his lionisation by Nicky Gumbel.
I can't comment on Blair eternal fate, but what came across was that he was - at best - a very confused witness to the Christian faith, and that it would have been better not to have put the spotlight on him.
I agree with the above comment about HTB being fairly orthodox in its teachings (though Graham Tomlin sails close to the wind at times). However, that they can invite Randy Clark etc quite happily tends to speak to a fairly deep seated pragmatism that tends to override other concerns at times.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Randy Clark was involved with the 'Toronto Blessing' thing so I'm not surprised that he's ended up speaking at HTB.
The problem, as I see it, with the whole HTB/New Wine thing is that whilst they certainly do have an elastic band in place that will draw them back towards the centre if they start to wander up side-alleys, they also have an innate tendency to swallow anything that looks big and shiny and successful.
So they'll cut Bill Johnson some slack because he's got a big church.
There's an inherent pragmaticism in the charismatic thing. If something appears to 'work' then everyone else will jump on the bandwagon and try to copy it - at least until another bandwagon rolls along. The whole thing is shot through with faddism.
It happens in all manner of directions. I knew a bloke who ran an Orthodox book service who suddenly found himself receiving an inordinate number of orders for 'prayer ropes' because some well-known writer on spirituality (adopts California accent, 'spiridewealidy') had alluded to them in his latest paperback. He wasn't complaining about the revenue, but he was bemused that they were taking up one practice without embracing the monasticism, asceticism and other aspects that went with it.
As for the health/wealth thing arriving in the UK. It's been here for a good while. There have been a number of churches with links to Kenneth Copeland and other health/wealth preachers for some time. Some of these have been shortlived and members have either fallen away or been absorbed into more moderate 'new church' settings like New Frontiers.
I remember New Frontiers picking up lots of 'word/faith' casualties at one time.
Other than among some black-led and African churches, the health-wealth thing hasn't really caught on in the UK on any big scale. Sure, there are elements of it at Hillsongs and among some of the larger metropolitan charismatic churches but I've yet to see much evidence of it among charismatic Baptists and Anglicans. There may be smidgeons of it.
Among the restorationist house-churches, the Harvestime/Covenant Ministries axis did flirt with some of this stuff for a while but never went fully down that route - mercifully. Some of the offshoots/developments that emerged from the old Covenant Ministries do have elements of health-wealth and even word-of-faith about them - but I wouldn't suggest it was the main emphasis.
Overall, I'm not very impressed with what I've seen or heard on the Anglican charismatic scene in recent years and my suspicion is that some of these people will be gulled and drawn in by some of this crap.
Others, though, will have the common sense to pull back from it.
On the issue of whether anything that Hillsongs and others do are 'against the creeds' - well, it's not as straightforward as that. You can be creedally sound and still do stupid things.
History is peppered with people who believed the creeds and who could recite them backwards yet acted like complete berks.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I am interested to know what sort of things you had in mind.
I think you'll find that the Word of Faith people are essentially orthodox in their theology. They are pentecostal, believe in healing in the atonement, and are quite likely to be pre-tribulation pre-millenial, as well as hot on tithing and legalistic, but at the end of the day they will toe the theological line.
Similarly, Wimber always claimed to abide by the Westminster Confession of Faith. He might be a little weird in terms of demonology and not averse to people falling over and making strange noises, but I don't think he ever assigned deep value to these manifestations.
In later years Wimber was impacted by the "Kansas City Prophets" and foremost among them Paul Cain who was himself a disciple of William Branham - a much more oddball variant of the Word of Faith crowd with heterodox doctrine.
In the wake of this I think a lot of people gravitating around Wimber and taking the stage after his death are a lot weirder than he ever was.
They cover a gamut from hard-working but perhaps deluded pastors through to out and out sideshow frauds worthy of Huckleberry Finn. Johnson is one of their number, I leave it up to you where you put him on that scale.
Where I think Johnson teeters on the brink of heresy is with things like the "manifest sons of God" doctrine and the contention that the Church is called to be the physical body of Jesus on earth. Christians are, as it were, subsumed into the person of the Son. I'd also say this generation makes far less attempt to exegete their case from scripture than Wimber did, simply because to all intents and purposes they see prophecy and their "apostolic" teaching (ie that of their leaders) as having equivalent authority to Scripture.
I think New Wine & co in the UK are susceptible to all this because they have rosy memories of when Wimber first came to the UK in the mid-80s invited by David Watson. It was at around the same time as Missin England with Billy Graham, which together served as a platform for charismatic worship songs and a chance for house church practice to enter the mainstream. In their quest for a return to those heady days I think they sometimes throw discernment out the window and welcome these newcomers as though they were on the same ticket as Wimber.
That's very broad brush strokes, no supporting documentation, and quite possibly wrong on many counts. But it's what my appraisal at a distance suggests.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Moonlitdoor is right, the HTB curates and other preachers don't go over the line, but their guests do. And Nicky is effusive about John Wimber and the laughing hyenas, barking dogs, etc..
I like HTB's ecumenism, but some of this (esp. Bill Johnson) is dangerous stuff. I much prefered HTB's Catholic phase…
K.
It's the Church of England for pete sake! The person appointing the diocesan bishops doesn't even have to believe in God. Coming down on Holy Trinity Brompton for inviting charismatics with squirrely views seems rather arbitrary.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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moonlitdoor
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# 11707
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Posted
quote:
posted by Gamaliel
You can be creedally sound and still do stupid things.
yes I understand that, I wasn't meaning that they must be all right if they don't go against the creeds. Komensky had written that a line should be drawn when 'someone argues against the essential truths of the Nicene Creed'. Although I have heard what seemed to me foolish things, eg at Hillsong, that is not how I would describe them, so I wondered what he meant, as I have not heard Randy Clark himself.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
For starters, 'being of one substance with the Father'. Bill johnson has written and preached that Jesus laid aside his divinity and needed to be 'reborn'. If Jesus is 'of one substance with the Father' then his divinity is not something that can come and go, let alone be 'laid aside', it *is*.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Does this departure from mainstream teaching arise out of the two familiar arguments used by preachers who are not willing or interested in doing their homework:
a) the disciples were uneducated men; Jesus speaks most clearly through the uneducated as they are not encumbered with too much head knowledge.
b) the Holy Spirit speaks today about new things not necessarily previously recorded. And you can't put new wine into old wineskins.
This often seems to be the excuse for people standing up and saying all sorts of uncorroborated guff; if their ego is big enough they can convince an awful lot of people. Those who are not convinced are doubters and stopping the Holy Spirit working, of course.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Ok - fair comments, moonlitdoor and Komensky. I wouldn't trust Bill Johnson further than I could throw him. It'd be like taking your car to the dodgiest car repair outfit in town.
New Wine do seem to have back-pedalled to some extent for inviting him along a few years ago. But still ...
What bugs me about these charismatic Anglicans is that they're blithely opening themselves up to things that caused havoc in the independent charismatic sector a few years ago and yet they think they can handle it without suffering the same ill effects.
It'd be like me saying, 'Ah look, that bloke over there has drunk a bottle of turps and he's been hospitalised. I'll go and do the same but it won't hurt me ... my constitution is made of sterner stuff ...'
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
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Posted
This is all terrible. I've never walked in Charismatic circles, although I've tried most flavours of Protestantism.
One thing occured to me - we can all bash Jimmy Swaggart and family, but I know he had no truck with this Faith-Word stuff!
[ 15. May 2012, 21:48: Message edited by: Mark Betts ]
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
The Word-Faith stuff is one area of the charismatic thing that I would unhesitatingly declare heretical.
However, if we were to take the official Big O Orthodox line of what constitutes heresy, then someone can only really be a heretic if they KNOW that they are a heretic - if they are aware of it and adopt it as a conscious stance.
I'm not sure that applies in most instances with the Word-Faith people - they don't realise how off-the-wall their views are. There are gradations of it, of course.
From what I can remember the high-point of all that came around about 1984/85 and it all seemed to die down a bit after that - certainly towards the early 1990s. The Toronto thing of the mid-1990s did have some roots in the health-wealth/word-faith thing - although it's a very fragmented scene and difficult to identify all the sources - but by and large the Anglican and Baptist charismatics have avoided the worst excesses of it - let's hope they're not heading down that route.
I like to believe the best of people and suspect not. But vigilance is required.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think you'll find that the Word of Faith people are essentially orthodox in their theology. They are pentecostal, believe in healing in the atonement, and are quite likely to be pre-tribulation pre-millenial, as well as hot on tithing and legalistic, but at the end of the day they will toe the theological line.
The practitioners of Word of Faith are mainly orthodox, the originators of it aren't in my opinion. There's the whole idea of faith as some kind of invisible elemental/force.
Kenneth Copeland also has some fairly peculiar ideas about Adam and Jesus where the former becomes a lot more divine and the latter a lot more human. It's probably ideas like this that set the stage for theologies lihe the one about 'manifest sons of God'.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Yes, absolutely. On a charitable analysis, Copeland is seriously theologically skewed. On a less charitable analysis he is an heretick.
On both counts he is best avoided.
I won't reveal my sources, but I recently spoke to someone who used to be on the inside track with some of these guys. He told me how they used to manage some of their stunts.
He also told me that there were occasions - just a few - when genuinely miraculous healings did apparently take place - and these scared him witless when they actually occurred.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
WoF is most certainly not orthodox. It owes more to the likes of the extremely dodgy E W Kenyon than it does to the Bible.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
...However, if we were to take the official Big O Orthodox line of what constitutes heresy, then someone can only really be a heretic if they KNOW that they are a heretic - if they are aware of it and adopt it as a conscious stance.
I'm Orthodox, and I'm sure that's not true. Protestantism in all it's flavours is heretical to us, but how many have you come across who KNOW they are being heretical?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
quote:
posted by Chris Stiles
It's probably ideas like this that set the stage for theologies like the one about 'manifest sons of God'.
I remember squiggle Andrew used to quote St Athanasius 'God became man so that men might become gods.'
Are they echoing that or is their idea something quite different ?
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, I got that from an Orthodox priest, Mark, so you'd better take it up with him ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Interestingly, the same priest opined to me that it often struck him how it was often possible to come across more 'orthodox' people in the various Protestant sects and splinter groups than it was in the mainstream Protestant churches and denominations.
I accept that the Orthodox regard all Protestants as heretical from their perspective, but most (in my experience) do exercise some kind of sliding scale of judgement whereby some Protestants are more 'Orthodox' than others.
Or, to put it another way, 'All Protestants are heretics but some Protestants are less heretical than others.'
If I were Orthodox, I think that's the view I'd take.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
WoF is most certainly not orthodox. It owes more to the likes of the extremely dodgy E W Kenyon than it does to the Bible.
But, it's the Church of England! Over the past 6 years on Ship of Fools, I've read all sorts of stuff that owes more to a dodgy source than it does the bible. Much of it came from members of the Church of England. Some of it came from clergy in the Church of England. Why make a big deal about a couple of squirrely charismatics at Holy Trinity Brompton?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Why make a big deal? Because one of the most well-attended and influential congregations in the country is getting into bed with some of the most unorthodox and wacky of non-conformist trends. This is surely one of the dangers of the whole 'invent-your-own-church' phenomenon. The CofE has a hierarchy and adheres to certain doctrine—not just any old dreamed crap up by some crackpot in California. What do you think would happen if the Bishop of Westminster, for example, gave a sermon where argued that Jesus 'emptied Himself of diety' and needed to be 'born again'? I suspect his phone would ring pretty quickly. I like the fact that the CofE permits a wide variety of practices and even beliefs and that is surely a strength, but within the perimeters of orthodoxy.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
I think there is a difference between people deviating from or struggling with historic orthodoxy openly and honestly and claiming to represent authentic orthodoxy whilst teaching things contrary to or in conflict with orthodoxy.
So some very liberal Christians may say that Jesus was not divine - but they do not claim that is orthodoxy.
The honest Vicar may share that he or she sometimes struggles with the virgin birth, but they do not claim it is a misprint in the creed.
However the preacher who claims to be representing a restored early church Christianity, be theologically orthodox, yet also teaches Ontological or Functional Kenosis* (that Jesus ministered as 'just' a spirit filled human - just like us) is a far more dangerous proposition.
Add to this that the picture of the Apostolic Church given in the earliest documents of Christianity seems to suggest a body that is liturgical and sacramental as well as supernatural has me running for the magisterium every time.
(Prep Prop Edit)
[ 16. May 2012, 12:41: Message edited by: Edward Green ]
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blog//twitter//
linkedin
Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I suspect it's a Pond thing, Beeswax Altar. From your Bible-Belt background in West Texas or whatever boondock backwater you hail from originally, you're more used to this sort of thing and consequently more able to shrug it off. Over here, we aren't, and so if a highly influential Anglican congregation such as HTB imbibes some of this stuff then I can understand why Komensky and others are concerned.
That said, I'm less concerned than they are because I've been through the charismatic thing and out the other side - so it can't hurt me no more ... nah nuh na nuh nah ...
I think that if I were in a church like HTB, though, I'd be waving my arms around by now (not in worship) crying, 'The barbarians are at the gates!'
That's the concern that some of the poster here have. They feel it may act as a conduit for some of the whackier left-field views that are prevalent on the health/wealth/word-of-faith axis to enter the mainstream.
The Wimber thing went that way over here, it was given a lot more kudos than it might otherwise have achieved because of apparent backing from prominent Anglican charismatics.
I suspect our friend Komensky and others are concerned that HTB could prove a Trojan Horse for other unwelcome innovations from across the Pond.
In which case, I would suggest they are right to be concerned.
As to whether Bishops and others ought to intervene ... I'm less convinced. It would only strengthen their resolve. Best starve the thing of the oxygen of publicity and they'll soon get bored of it and move onto something else. Whether that something else is likely to be any more wholesome is a moot point.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... nah nuh na nuh nah ...
Is that how post-charismatics are supposed to speak in tongues? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, I got that from an Orthodox priest, Mark, so you'd better take it up with him ...
Sounds like a rather unorthodox Orthodox Priest!
quote:
Interestingly, the same priest opined to me that it often struck him how it was often possible to come across more 'orthodox' people in the various Protestant sects and splinter groups than it was in the mainstream Protestant churches and denominations.
I accept that the Orthodox regard all Protestants as heretical from their perspective, but most (in my experience) do exercise some kind of sliding scale of judgement whereby some Protestants are more 'Orthodox' than others.
Or, to put it another way, 'All Protestants are heretics but some Protestants are less heretical than others.'
If I were Orthodox, I think that's the view I'd take.
This is all true. The reason we view Protestantism as heretical has to do with their view of the Church (eg. "invisible") whereas we see it completely differently. I'm not forgetting I've spent most of my life as a protestant, of course.
But when it comes to other things, such as Faith-Word, well that is another matter - however, the reason such beliefs can ever come into existence is precisely because of the protestant view of the "true" Church.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Mark Betts is on to something. This is something that, as I get older, I struggle with. I don't really believe that anything that calls itself a 'church' is therefore a church. Where does it end? The snakehandlers? If I wasn't married to a charismatic, I'd probably swim the Tiber—or maybe it is those former stresses that make me want to jump.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, I got that from an Orthodox priest, Mark, so you'd better take it up with him ...
Sounds like a rather unorthodox Orthodox Priest!
quote:
Interestingly, the same priest opined to me that it often struck him how it was often possible to come across more 'orthodox' people in the various Protestant sects and splinter groups than it was in the mainstream Protestant churches and denominations.
I accept that the Orthodox regard all Protestants as heretical from their perspective, but most (in my experience) do exercise some kind of sliding scale of judgement whereby some Protestants are more 'Orthodox' than others.
Or, to put it another way, 'All Protestants are heretics but some Protestants are less heretical than others.'
If I were Orthodox, I think that's the view I'd take.
This is all true. The reason we view Protestantism as heretical has to do with their view of the Church (eg. "invisible") whereas we see it completely differently. I'm not forgetting I've spent most of my life as a protestant, of course.
But when it comes to other things, such as Faith-Word, well that is another matter - however, the reason such beliefs can ever come into existence is precisely because of the protestant view of the "true" Church.
Yes, because Orthodoxy never throws up any heretics, does it? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Mark Betts is on to something. This is something that, as I get older, I struggle with. I don't really believe that anything that calls itself a 'church' is therefore a church. Where does it end? The snakehandlers? If I wasn't married to a charismatic, I'd probably swim the Tiber—or maybe it is those former stresses that make me want to jump.
K.
I'm in shock!! (I'm not used to people agreeing with me!)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Yes, because Orthodoxy never throws up any heretics, does it?
Of course it does.. that's usually the moment such people cease to be Orthodox (unless they repent)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
No, he's not particularly unorthodox. Longstanding shippies will know the chap I mean. Let the reader understand ...
I've also read an essay by Andrew Walker the sociologist, a Russian Orthodox Christian who grew up Pentecostal based on a talk he gave to some fellow Orthodox. He suggests that the language of 'heresy' isn't the most helpful way to address the differences between East and West. He'd rather the Orthodox strove to find common ground instead of harping on about the differences all the time. He doesn't deny that the differences exist, though. Nor do I.
I always thought that the Orthodox made a distinction between 'heterodox' and 'heretical' - at least in public ...
I do agree that Mark Betts is 'onto something' and also that the RCs are too ... Komensky, I don't see how being married to a charismatic precludes your crossing the Tiber necessarily, but hey ... none of my business ... I'd find it hard not to have communion with my wife too if I ever crossed the Tiber or the Bosphorus.
Historically, though, most heresies have arisen in the East and some were even fended off with the assistance of Rome. Even the Orthodox will acknowledge that.
I will agree that there is something intrinsically flawed in the uber-individualistic Protestant ecclesiology (such as it is, do some of these groups even HAVE an ecclesiology?) which leads to the emergence of whacky teachings such as Word of Faith. But then, it's not as if the more Catholic traditions have been immune to whackiness of their own.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've also read an essay by Andrew Walker the sociologist, a Russian Orthodox Christian who grew up Pentecostal based on a talk he gave to some fellow Orthodox. He suggests that the language of 'heresy' isn't the most helpful way to address the differences between East and West. He'd rather the Orthodox strove to find common ground instead of harping on about the differences all the time. He doesn't deny that the differences exist, though. Nor do I.
I always thought that the Orthodox made a distinction between 'heterodox' and 'heretical' - at least in public ...
Yes, maybe that's it! There's also the term "scismatic" but I don't think we want to go there at this time!
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Drewthealexander
Shipmate
# 16660
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I suspect it's a Pond thing, Beeswax Altar. From your Bible-Belt background in West Texas or whatever boondock backwater you hail from originally, you're more used to this sort of thing and consequently more able to shrug it off
Much as I also enjoy a little gentle teasing of our post-colonial cousin (which he takes in very good humour) his point, as usual, has considerable merit. Why should we be more concerned about an overseas visitor (who none of us seems to have heard speak) than practicing clergy employed on the basis of confessing articles of faith they don't believe?
Posts: 499 | Registered: Sep 2011
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