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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Word of Faith movement in the UK
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Edward Green:
I think there is a difference between people deviating from or struggling with historic orthodoxy openly and honestly and claiming to represent authentic orthodoxy whilst teaching things contrary to or in conflict with orthodoxy.
I don't see how.
quote:
originally posted by Edward Green:
So some very liberal Christians may say that Jesus was not divine - but they do not claim that is orthodoxy.
No, they mock the whole concept of orthodoxy.
quote:
originally posted by Edward Green:
The honest Vicar may share that he or she sometimes struggles with the virgin birth, but they do not claim it is a misprint in the creed.
No, they just condemn the entire Nicene Creed as outdated, exclusionary, irrelevant or some other negative term in vogue among liberals at the time.
quote:
originally posted by Edward Green:
However the preacher who claims to be representing a restored early church Christianity,
Liberals more well known than any preacher mentioned on this thread do it all the time. It's become a cottage industry. Liberals were claiming the early church taught a version of Christianity vasly different from the orthodox version way before Kenneth Hagin even started plagiarizing E.W. Kenyon.
quote:
originally posted by Edward Green:
Add to this that the picture of the Apostolic Church given in the earliest documents of Christianity seems to suggest a body that is liturgical and sacramental as well as supernatural has me running for the magisterium every time.
I believe all heretics should be treated equally.
[ 16. May 2012, 21:16: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Drewthealexander, well yes, I think it's both/and not either/or ... and I agree that Beeswax Altar has made a very good point. It still doesn't stop me ribbing him, though, he's one of those people (like Ender's Shadow) who sort of invites it ... I don't know why, but certain people draw my fire and BA is one of them - even though I agree with him on many issues.
I suspect a psychologist would have a field day ...
I'm sure he's right. We cut 'establishment' and well-educated heretics some slack but we don't extend the same courtesy to US preachers from the wrong side of the tracks.
But then, if Mark Betts is right, then we're all heretics apart from the Orthodox anyway.
Which is one of the ironies of Beeswax Altar's position when he gets all hoity-toity with Mudfrog and other non-sacramentalists - when his own church's sacraments aren't recognised by either the RC or the Orthodox ...
But that's another story.
@Mark Betts, yes I'm used to being regarded as a 'schismatic'. I occasionally visit my nearest Orthodox parish, which is pretty much a convert one with a handful of cradle Orthodox from Eastern Europe thrown in. For a while, on every visit, the priest would allude to 'evangelical schismatics' and so on in his (very short) sermons. I'd heard from his parishioners that he didn't always knock Protestantism but only did so when I turned up.
I challenged him about this and he told me that he only ever said what the Holy Spirit gave him to say, an assertion that caused some mirth among Orthodox posters on these boards when I shared the story.
He's not done it sense. Perhaps the Holy Spirit has prompted him not to niggle me about it ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I've never heard of Randy Clark, Bill Johnson or Word of Faith. Should I have done? Googling them has thrown up a lot of links which leave me little the wiser apart from concluding they don't look like the sort of thing I'm comfortable with. They appear to advocate a 'prosperity gospel' which, if so, is a perversion, treating the Christian gospel as a sort of cargo cult. There's also quite a strong implication they advocate that people should believe and act as though they have been healed even when they haven't been.
What I'd be more uneasy about is that Holy Trinity Brompton is the driving force behind Alpha which a lot of churches here use and find valuable. Are Randy Clark, Bill Johnson or Word of Faith likely to distort how Alpha works and how it presents the faith? If so, that's worrying. If Holy Trinity Brompton is not influenced by them, hears them and rejects them or does not recommend them, I suppose I'm less bothered.
Something I'm repeatedly troubled by, in the secular field as much as the religious, is how much more credence many of ones fellow countrypersons give people who come from abroad to peddle their nostra with a hard sell, to whom they'd never listen if home grown.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I'm not concerned particularly on the 'tainting of Alpha' point as I think that's unlikely given that it's essentially a franchise which individual church communities are at least partly free to present in a way that best suits them and their constituencies. I'm more concerned for the reputation of HTB generally if it develops of habit of hosting fruitcakes.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Well, y'know, I could easily make a list of things I don't believe in that people would say made me a heretic
Substitutionary atonement
The historic creeds - specifically the phrase 'holy, catholic and apostolic'
The Theology of the Land
Sacraments. Any of them.
Ordination
Holy buildings
The goofiness of this movement is not related to whether or not they sign up to other people's list of orthodoxy. Everyone is someone else's heretic.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
What's The Theology of the Land? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
In one sense I'm trying to avoid identifying the line of orthodoxy, as least as we understand it in the CofE and I think in Lutheran circles. Having said that, the deity of Christ seems to be a non-negotiable. Surely this is why the JWs and Mormons are not considered Christians.
The 'Signs and Wonders' lot have already landed, it seems. Not only have Bill Johnson and his ilk been preaching here, but check out their Welsh mate Justin Abraham (who pegs the bonkers metre). One blog has a recording of him preaching that Christians should be able to breath underwater.
I heard it here on a blog of someone who 'escaped' the whole Signs and Wonders/Word of Faith movement.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@Mark Betts, yes I'm used to being regarded as a 'schismatic'. I occasionally visit my nearest Orthodox parish, which is pretty much a convert one with a handful of cradle Orthodox from Eastern Europe thrown in. For a while, on every visit, the priest would allude to 'evangelical schismatics' and so on in his (very short) sermons. I'd heard from his parishioners that he didn't always knock Protestantism but only did so when I turned up.
I challenged him about this and he told me that he only ever said what the Holy Spirit gave him to say, an assertion that caused some mirth among Orthodox posters on these boards when I shared the story.
He's not done it sense. Perhaps the Holy Spirit has prompted him not to niggle me about it ...
But I never called you a schismatic. I am a little perturbed when I hear of "Orthodox" parishes that mainly consist of UK/American citizens. I suspect they may be somewhat "westernised", especially if they use the "western rite."
We use the Eastern rite, and the people who attend are largely Russian/Eastern European, but the services are mostly in English - perfect!
Hang on, what was the subject about again...?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
What's The Theology of the Land?
Christian Zionism, essentially.
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Ah, that land, that theology!
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Actually, I think there are other strange expressions of the Theology of the Land which applies it to other places, but that is the most obvious.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Ok, getting back to the matter at hand… When does just 'inviting a slightly loopy speaker' become inviting someone who does not accept the divinity of Jesus? Bill Johnson's idea that Jesus was a man who got zapped with the Holy Spirit and when we hold up our sword and say 'I have the power' we can perform miracles too— even greater than Jesus.
It's one thing to be open to ideas outside your comfort zone, but surely another to share a pulpit (OK, we're talking about HTB, so, a stage with lights and a sofa) with someone who is, theologically speaking, bonkers.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Is that different to listening to the Dalai Lama speak in a Cathedral?
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
Can I be boring and go back to the OP? Here is Randy Clark's resume from the htb site:
quote:
American speaker Randy Clark spoke to around 800 church leaders at HTB Brompton Road today as part of the ‘There is More’ event hosted by Holy Trinity Swiss Cottage, a plant of HTB.
The day long conference was introduced by HTB Vicar Nicky Gumbel.Randy spoke of his experiences with international mission and of the many miracles he has seen in a lifetime's ministry around the world. He was speaking at the Airport Vineyard Church in Toronto when the Holy Spirit fell in 1994 - an event which became known as the 'Toronto Blessing'.Open ministry time was held throughout the day.Randy Clark also spoke at an open gathering held at Holy Trinity Swiss Cottage yesterday.
As a long time Alpha supporter I have a great respect for Nicky Gumbel and all at HTB.
I can't comment on this specific guy either, but my overall take on these sorts of things, is well, let's just keep our critical faculties and also don't write him off until we know what he's about - to be fair to the guy and his ministry surely?
As far as Word of Faith, in my neck of the woods some people really like Joyce Meyer and other W of F people. Personally they leave me a bit cold, and somewhat alarmed as well. Joyce Meyer certainly doesn't float my boat.
My main comment here would be, often these meeting bring on a ''special person'' sometimes with a ''special annointing'' usually from a long way away and they may (to be fair) have something useful to say; but often it is re-dressed same old same old.
My concern is that often there is so much hype and razzamatazz that real spiritual growth and movement may get squeezed out of the picture. That's the harmful bit IMHO.
As for calling in the local Bishop, well that's a matter for the local congo surely? What I know of Nicky Gumbel and crowd, they seem fairly sound and balanced and if they smell something awry they will raise alarm bells - I hope I'm not being too trusting saying that, but that's what I feel.
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Is that different to listening to the Dalai Lama speak in a Cathedral?
Not in my book, no. (Not that I'm saying that the Dalai Lama is bonkers, BTW!)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Ok, getting back to the matter at hand… When does just 'inviting a slightly loopy speaker' become inviting someone who does not accept the divinity of Jesus? Bill Johnson's idea that Jesus was a man who got zapped with the Holy Spirit and when we hold up our sword and say 'I have the power' we can perform miracles too— even greater than Jesus.
It's one thing to be open to ideas outside your comfort zone, but surely another to share a pulpit (OK, we're talking about HTB, so, a stage with lights and a sofa) with someone who is, theologically speaking, bonkers.
K.
So, Bill Johnson believes Jesus was a man zapped by the Holy Spirit and in the sense Jesus was God we can be God? What Johnson believes sounds very similar to bog standard liberal Christology. The Archbishop of Canterbury or Bishop of London would have a serious crisis clergy crisis if they started prohibiting people with that view or similar from speaking in COE parishes.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
What's The Theology of the Land?
People do not own the land, God does. Not just in a theological way, but in a real way.
That's my theology soundbite of the day. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
What's The Theology of the Land?
People do not own the land, God does. Not just in a theological way, but in a real way.
That sounds similar to First Nations/Native American traditional religious beliefs.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
So, Bill Johnson believes Jesus was a man zapped by the Holy Spirit and in the sense Jesus was God we can be God? What Johnson believes sounds very similar to bog standard liberal Christology. The Archbishop of Canterbury or Bishop of London would have a serious clergy crisis if they started prohibiting people with that view or similar from speaking in COE parishes.
Yes, I'm afraid I know from my C of E days that this was a view almost on par with traditional beliefs about the Incarnation.
Yeah, yeah, you all know I'm Orthodox now, and... blah-blah-blah
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Saul, I think you're right that Nicky generally has his head screwed on straight, but HTB have gone in big for the 'the Holy Spirit showed up' kind of stuff that you mentioned. I think this makes a nonsense of both biblical and Church history. The whole idea that if only you know the right tricks, God (though these types usually go in for modalism) will 'appear'.
Here is Clark taking part in the fraudulent Todd Bentley charade.
I think the whole 'Toronto Blessing' malarky was already beyond the fringe, but at HTB those rather wacky ideas are accepted as central. There is little room for skepticism. I can vouch for that.
K.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Mark Betts. I'm something of an Orthophile, but you are beginning to annoy me - not the extent that I'm inclined to call you Hellward. Not just yet ...
For the record, the local Orthodox around here use the Eastern rite so they're probably kosher by your standards.
Converts ... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) - don't they get on your nerves?
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
@Saul and Komensky - well, the Gumboid and his pals might be fairly orthodox in theory but these folk do tend to be rather slip-shod and modalist in practice. I give them some credit for sense, but I would advice caution. They're far too ready to be taken in by anything that looks bright, shiny and successful.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jonah the Whale
Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
When does just 'inviting a slightly loopy speaker' become inviting someone who does not accept the divinity of Jesus? Bill Johnson's idea that Jesus was a man who got zapped with the Holy Spirit...
Are you sure about this? I'd be very surprised if Bill Johnson does not accept the divinity of Jesus. Could you give us the context of your quote. Saying that Jesus was a man is not controversial. Saying he got zapped with the Holy Spirit could mean all sorts of things.
quote:
and when we hold up our sword and say 'I have the power' we can perform miracles too— even greater than Jesus.
I doubt he was talking about literal swords, and for the rest he is using a gospel quote of Jesus' own words. Ok, so we don't see miracles happening on a daily basis and perhaps we should ask ourselves why, but this is surely nothing heretical? Or "bonkers"?
Posts: 2799 | From: Nether Regions | Registered: Aug 2001
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Huh, great point Jonah - at the baptism of Jesus, the Holy Spirit was said to have come upon him as a dove (whatever that means), and he said that we will do greater things..
Maybe the problem is that this guy is a touch too literal for some..
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
I doubt he was talking about literal swords, and for the rest he is using a gospel quote of Jesus' own words.
Do a bit of googling for "Bethel" "supernatural school of ministry" and "knighting" and you will find Johnson et al. wielding real swords to "knight" graduates of the school... They have a whole thing about the Knights Templar ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Bill Johnson pays lip service to the divinity of Jesus, but in his writing and doctrine clearly denies it. A big part of the reason he encounters so many theological problems is his strong anti-intellectual bias. In short, studying the Bible leads to 'spiritual' poverty. So he can argue for this modalistic magic show and if you don't buy it, he can merely point to your spiritual shortcomings because of your silly intellectualism. Mercifully, this has all happened before and the frauds are always exposed (just like his chum Todd Bentley). Not that this is direct reflection of Bill Johnson himself, but several of his number have escaped the Bethel scene and revealed the trickery and lies happening there. One of them was involved with a Derren Brown TV programme about fake healing. The blogosphere has many 'recovering' from the likes of Bethel and Mars Hill (Driscoll version).
Back to the deity of Jesus. Bill Johnson espouses yet another version of the Kenosis doctrine—it isn't novel, but it is a denial of the deity of Jesus.
As for the baptism of Jesus, the image given in the scripture (literal or metaphoric) of the Holy Trinity—not a magic power being bestowed upon Jesus. Moreover, Jesus was always part of the Trinity, otherwise, like Bill Johnson and co., you find yourself in modalism. However we might read the baptism of Jesus it does not mark a point where Jesus 'gets his powers' [which is part of the Hollywood, entertainment strain that runs through so much of the weirder side of evangelical teaching). Jesus 'had' the Holy Spirit before he was born. Luke 1:15 . If we are to talk about the Holy Spirit descending on a human and changing them—it was the Virgin Mary. Alas, she's been written out the Evo take on things.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
John the baptist, that is—in Luke 1. Silly edit window! Isa. 11:2 is the one I meant for Jesus and the Holy Spirit before his birth.
Running late,
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
I doubt he was talking about literal swords, and for the rest he is using a gospel quote of Jesus' own words.
Do a bit of googling for "Bethel" "supernatural school of ministry" and "knighting" and you will find Johnson et al. wielding real swords to "knight" graduates of the school... They have a whole thing about the Knights Templar
Very sorry for the treble-post. The funny part is, Eutychus, I just borrowed the sword scene and even the words 'I have the power' from 'He Man, Master of the Universe'. Presumably that's required watching at the Bethel school of magic and wizardry?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think there is a rather specifically New World fascination with olde-worlde culture and legends that is fused, unhealthily, with contemporary christian praxis.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Edward Green
However the preacher who claims to be representing a restored early church Christianity, be theologically orthodox, yet also teaches Ontological or Functional Kenosis* (that Jesus ministered as 'just' a spirit filled human - just like us) is a far more dangerous proposition.
OK, I can understand that claiming that Ontological Kenosis might violate the idea of the full divinity of Jesus, but I can't see why Functional Kenosis is problematic. It's fairly well taught in Paul, and at least implied by Jesus Himself. Nor can I see that Jesus operating as a Spirit-filled human should ring any alarm bells. Again, scripturally quite well attested. Where do you see the danger?
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
For my part, I see it as a pendulum, with docetism at the other end.
The Johnson is the idea that Jesus functioned in exactly the same way as contemporary charismatic christians. He was an ordinary man until he was baptised in the Spirit and then exercised his ministry, particularly the miracles, with a modus operandi that is identical to that of a Spirit-filled christian today.
What I personally have taken from Wimber is a refreshing emphasis on the humanity of Jesus, but I think setting Jesus and his ministry up as a model to follow on the assumption that we have access to exactly the same resources is a big mistake and liable to lead off into heresy.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
This has been a hot-potato for years. There were issues around kenosis way back with the teachings of Edward Irving. You pays your money and you makes your choice as to whether Irving was sound in his Christology. I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.
One the whole, I would agree with Jolly Jape that most charismatics have a balanced view on the kenosis thing ... but the danger, as Eutychus has highlighted, with Bethel and similar outfits is the sheer lack of formal theological training of any weight and their very anti-intellectual approach.
I'm not suggesting that HTB or New Wine or any of the other charismatic Anglicans are going to hell in a handcart simply because the Gumboid and all have invited a fruitcake to speak. There are plenty of fruitcakes around and they'll have had fruitcakes there in the past and will do so again.
But I would sound a very strong note of caution.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
What's The Theology of the Land?
People do not own the land, God does. Not just in a theological way, but in a real way.
That's my theology soundbite of the day.
quote:
Thirdly, It is shewed us, That all the Prophecies, Visions, and Revelations of Scriptures, of Prophets, and Apostles, concerning the calling of the Jews, the Restauration of Israel; and making of that People, the Inheritors of the whole Earth; doth all seat themselves in this Work of making the Earth a Common Treasury; as you may read, Ezek. 24.26, 27, &c. Jer. 33.7 to 12. Esay. 49.17, 18, &c. Zach. 8. from 4, to 12, Dan. 2.44, 45, Dan. 7.27. Hos. 14.5, 6,7. Joel 2.26, 27. Amos 9. from 8 to the end, Obad. 17.18.21. Mic. 5. from 7 to the end, Hab. 2.6, 7, 8, 13, 14. Gen. 18.18. Rom. 11.15. Zeph. 3. &c. Zech. 14.9
(Gerard Winstanley and others, 1649, The True Levellers Standard Advanced: Or, The State of Community Opened, and Presented to the Sons of Men)
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Drewthealexander
Shipmate
# 16660
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Posted
The alternative perspective in all this is that, in their private conversations, the conference organisers may be having a positive influence on brother Clark.
Not that I can pass any comment on his teaching having not heard any of it.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I admire your optimism, Drewthealexander, but I spent much of my 18 years in a restorationist charismatic church trying to bring alternative perspectives and balance. It gets you nowhere in the end. These people hear what they want to hear. Just like everyone else.
I would have more expectation of the Pope suddenly removing his tiara and throwing in his lot with the Mennonites or the Principal of Hyper-Reformed Theological Seminary of Calvinsville Minnesota declaring that he was becoming a Copt, than I would of any of these guys changing their spots ...
Still, stranger things have happened ...
Incidentally, I'm not sure that the Gumboid and his pals are in a particularly good position to bring commonsense to bear, but I might be doing them a disservice. They won't be as whacky as some of the company they keep ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
So, Bill Johnson believes Jesus was a man zapped by the Holy Spirit and in the sense Jesus was God we can be God? What Johnson believes sounds very similar to bog standard liberal Christology. The Archbishop of Canterbury or Bishop of London would have a serious clergy crisis if they started prohibiting people with that view or similar from speaking in COE parishes.
Yes, I'm afraid I know from my C of E days that this was a view almost on par with traditional beliefs about the Incarnation.
Not at all. As I'm sure you know very well, the traditional belief is that Jesus was fully God and fully man. I move in fairly liberal Anglican circles and I have never heard anyone suggest from a pulpit that this was not the case- indeed, quite the reverse.
Or is this just some snarky jibe at the alleged doctrinal laxity of the CofE?
[ 18. May 2012, 21:00: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
It's funny how everyone's critical of some of the word-faith preachers that are invited to preach at Holy Trinity, yet Nicky Gumble can do no wrong - shouldn't we judge people by the company they keep?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
So, Bill Johnson believes Jesus was a man zapped by the Holy Spirit and in the sense Jesus was God we can be God? What Johnson believes sounds very similar to bog standard liberal Christology. The Archbishop of Canterbury or Bishop of London would have a serious clergy crisis if they started prohibiting people with that view or similar from speaking in COE parishes.
Yes, I'm afraid I know from my C of E days that this was a view almost on par with traditional beliefs about the Incarnation.
Not at all. As I'm sure you know very well, the traditional belief is that Jesus was fully God and fully man. I move in fairly liberal Anglican circles and I have never heard anyone suggest from a pulpit that this was not the case- indeed, quite the reverse.
Or is this just some snarky jibe at the alleged doctrinal laxity of the CofE?
Errr.. no it's not a jibe - I've heard it often enough with my own ears, from "evangelicals" amongst others. I get the impression that either view is acceptable in the C of E - that's why you don't often hear of priests saying that it is fundamentally necessary to believe in the Virgin Birth.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Stick around, Mark, you'll hear plenty of jibes at Gumbel. I'm no fan. The bloke brings me out in spots.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Stick around, Mark, you'll hear plenty of jibes at Gumbel. I'm no fan. The bloke brings me out in spots.
I wouldn't say our Nicky brings me out in spots - but he is annoying! ...and why does he have to call himself "Nicky"? ...or shouldn't I ask?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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barrea
Shipmate
# 3211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Because he's a prat.
In your opinion.
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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1
Posts: 1050 | From: england | Registered: Aug 2002
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Because he's a prat.
In your opinion.
Was there any point to that comment? Gamaliel is posting an opinion - wow, woopie do. Isn't that what everyone does on a bulletin board - or do you have a hotline to the deity which means that everything you say is god's-own-truth whereas everything Gamaliel says is unreliable opinion?
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Because he's a prat.
In your opinion.
Was there any point to that comment? Gamaliel is posting an opinion - wow, woopie do. Isn't that what everyone does on a bulletin board - or do you have a hotline to the deity which means that everything you say is god's-own-truth whereas everything Gamaliel says is unreliable opinion?
Wouldn't it be easier to just say that you think he's a prat as well?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Wouldn't it be easier to just say that you think he's a prat as well?
Do you ever shut up? What is your problem?
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Wouldn't it be easier to just say that you think he's a prat as well?
Do you ever shut up? What is your problem?
Well? You answered one person's pointless (in your opinion) comment with another pointless and long winded comment of your own!
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Because he's a prat.
In your opinion.
Was there any point to that comment? Gamaliel is posting an opinion - wow, woopie do. Isn't that what everyone does on a bulletin board - or do you have a hotline to the deity which means that everything you say is god's-own-truth whereas everything Gamaliel says is unreliable opinion?
Barrea posts three words in gentle disagreement and suddenly he's claiming "a hotline to the deity"? Good grief. A bit over the top, I'd say.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Because he's a prat.
In your opinion.
When, like Gamaliel, you see a prat every time you look in the mirror, you know a prat when you see one.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
The problem is that as usual, things are not that black and white. Nicky Gumbel can hardly help his 'rah' background. He has been instrumental in the work of Alpha, which although I cordially detest it has I'm sure resulted in at least some people coming to the faith and has "even" been taken on board by many RC churches here. I'm sure he "loves the Lord".
Unfortunately, like a lot of leaders of all stripes, he seems to have a blind spot with regard to some of those he gives a platfom to and unintentionally legitimises.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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