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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Word of Faith movement in the UK
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The problem is that as usual, things are not that black and white. Nicky Gumbel can hardly help his 'rah' background. He has been instrumental in the work of Alpha, which although I cordially detest it has I'm sure resulted in at least some people coming to the faith and has "even" been taken on board by many RC churches here. I'm sure he "loves the Lord".
Unfortunately, like a lot of leaders of all stripes, he seems to have a blind spot with regard to some of those he gives a platfom to and unintentionally legitimises.
Exactly - that's the dilemma!
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Well in Ship terms I think it's called "attack the issue not the person".
Even if, to misquote Adrian Plass, we are called to be fools for Christ and not prats for Jesus.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Waterchaser
Shipmate
# 11005
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Posted
I think its understating the case somewhat to say that Alpha has resulted in a few people coming to Christ. Its resulted in more than a few in my town; and I am sure thats multiplied by most of the towns in the country. Tempting as the reverse snobbery thing is I think Nicky G has undoubtably made a great contribution to the church in the UK.
As for Randy Clark; I have heard him speak once on mp3. It was clear that he mixed with word of faith types and was comfortable with them but not clear that he shared their views. In fact he was quite explicit about healing not resulting automatically from a certain level of faith; that he had seen healings where there seemed to be little faith on the part of the person praying or the person being prayed for and that this might upset the "word of faith" types.
The only other thing I know about him really was that Heidi Baker in her book mentions him prophesying over her at Toronto about how her ministry in Mozambique would take off - in a few years afterwards her organisation went from one orphanage and two churches to planting 8,000 or so churches and looking after many more orphans.
She incidentally can't really be described as a "health and wealth person" despite being enthusiatic about healing given that she talks and writes about how she has learnt the most theology from children and the poor. She also talks quite realistically about children coming into their orphanages with Turberculosis, Aids and other STDs for example and then how God has healed one or more of these but not all of these afflictions in response to prayer - a really clear affirmation of the tension of living with the "now and not yet" of the kingdom.
Posts: 310 | From: Luton, UK | Registered: Feb 2006
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Waterchaser:
She also talks quite realistically about children coming into their orphanages with Turberculosis, Aids and other STDs for example and then how God has healed one or more of these but not all of these afflictions in response to prayer - a really clear affirmation of the tension of living with the "now and not yet" of the kingdom.
I cannot help thinking that miracles have more to do with teaching the reality and power of God than with fixing up all our temporal problems.
Many people have an ultimately bleak and deeply negative view of the universe'n'all. Miracles show us that underneath the universe lies the eternal and all-powerful love of God. They don't teach us that God will fix all our problems instantly.
Once we get out of a negative view of ultimate reality (God, who is Love, is ultimate reality) then we can face the problems of every day life knowing that they are not ultimate, not eternal.
This is what I got out of the Charismatic movement. Not "all your problems can be solved, if only you believe hard enough", but "God is real, utterly real, and whatever you go through, He is there with you".
A miracle occurs, and we believe in the reality of God. Then a miracle does not occur, and we have to decide whether we want God rather than miracles. We move on from "miracles all the way" to Habakkuk's words: "Though the fig tree does not prosper, and there be no fruit on the vine ... yet will I rejoice in the Lord". Whether a miracle happens or not, is simply a temporal matter. The reality and love of God is eternal.
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
So, Bill Johnson believes Jesus was a man zapped by the Holy Spirit and in the sense Jesus was God we can be God? What Johnson believes sounds very similar to bog standard liberal Christology.
Darn, yet another memo I must've missed on 'What you must believe, if you are a liberal (according to Us Real Christians)'. I just hate it when that happens!
Anyway, to the topic. I think a great deal of good has been achieved by HTB through Alpha and its various courses. If Randy Clarke proves to be a mistake in programming, I hope and trust what is valuable in HTB's ministry will not suffer. They're probably big and ugly enough to suffer a few bad associations, if that were the case, however.
At this stage, I can't see either that there's any particular reason for a Bishop to 'do' anything. Voicing private reservations might be one thing. But no reason - as yet - to worry about the congos at HTB?
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Waterchaser:
The only other thing I know about him really was that Heidi Baker in her book mentions him prophesying over her at Toronto about how her ministry in Mozambique would take off - in a few years afterwards her organisation went from one orphanage and two churches to planting 8,000 or so churches and looking after many more orphans.
May I ask - when you say 8,000 churches, does this refer to actual buildings in most cases or the groups of people who form the congregations?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I don't see how.
.... I believe all heretics should be treated equally.
So assuming that extreme Liberalism and Extreme Charismaticism are equally wrong/dangerous do we take into account that the latter is growing whilst the former seems to fizzle itself out? I find in ministry that the former is far easier to engage with and challenge than what folks have picked up from the latter, because as they believe it to be orthodoxy they would see me as a heretic
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
OK, I can understand that claiming that Ontological Kenosis might violate the idea of the full divinity of Jesus, but I can't see why Functional Kenosis is problematic. It's fairly well taught in Paul, and at least implied by Jesus Himself. Nor can I see that Jesus operating as a Spirit-filled human should ring any alarm bells. Again, scripturally quite well attested. Where do you see the danger?
Complex and subtle.
Firstly for any given action of Christ do we end up wrestling with to what extent it is human or divine? Signs and Wonders perhaps can be seen as 'just' down to the Anointing, but what about emotional responses. Did Jesus the man weep at the grave of Lazarus, or sweat blood in the Garden, or were divine and human will united in these actions?
How about the institution of the Eucharist. Was this 'just' an anointed human act that any of us could fulfil, or is it a divine human act that we are all drawn into?
I have no problem with 'greater things', this can be seen in charismatic and sacramental terms (although in orthodox Christianity I suspect the dichotomy is false), but the reason the Church as a whole does such things is because Christ did all as fully human and fully God.
I don't want to be just an anointed human being, I want to be drawn towards the resurrected Christ, where humanity is lifted to heaven itself.
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blog//twitter//
linkedin
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Stick around, Mark, you'll hear plenty of jibes at Gumbel. I'm no fan. The bloke brings me out in spots.
...and why does he have to call himself "Nicky"? ...or shouldn't I ask?
Probably because he thinks it sounds young and trendy - though he must be 50 by now.
Isn't it just likely he was always called 'Nicky' and that maybe it was his family who first called him it? Did Billy Graham suddenly become 'William' on his 50th? I'm sure as hell not going to suddenly adopt my full moniker when I hit the magic half-century!
Besides - wild hypocritcal generalization coming up ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) - the English are fiends for shortening names, aren't they? A kind of endearing little national characteristic?
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Given he was educated at an exclusive private school and Cambridge, I suspect Mr Gumbel was frequently used to be referred to by his surname.
By the time he came to be ordained, I suspect there was an effort to leave behind his previous life and become a friendly face rather than Rev Gumbel - and I would think that went hand in hand with using a simplified first name.
It also seems to be generally true that boys at private school are called by a shortened friendly name by family - possibly also due to same effect.
This is all, of course, an opinion. I can't really see that Mr Gumbel's choice of name has anything to do with the rightness of his association with the Word of Faith oojamaflip, but that could just be me.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Also possibly an impact of his mentor Sandy Millar.
Both were educated at Eton and Cambridge.
I was also thinking that a certain time ago, it was very common for people to have shortened familiar names - possibly due to the impact of conscription. My Grandfather's brother was nicknamed Mac from the army days until he died at an older age. My Grandfather - a career soldier - was always known as Jim even though his name was Richard.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
At the risk of turning this into a pond war or a Circus thread, in terms of ridiculous names for ministers there are plenty of non-UK contenders. Winkie Pratney, anyone? Dutch Sheets? ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Waterchaser:
The only other thing I know about him really was that Heidi Baker in her book mentions him prophesying over her at Toronto about how her ministry in Mozambique would take off - in a few years afterwards her organisation went from one orphanage and two churches to planting 8,000 or so churches and looking after many more orphans.
May I ask - when you say 8,000 churches, does this refer to actual buildings in most cases or the groups of people who form the congregations?
Hi Susan. It's groups of people, and if you include countries who are neighbours to Mozambique the figure climbs to over 10,000.
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Waterchaser:
I think its understating the case somewhat to say that Alpha has resulted in a few people coming to Christ. Its resulted in more than a few in my town; and I am sure thats multiplied by most of the towns in the country. Tempting as the reverse snobbery thing is I think Nicky G has undoubtably made a great contribution to the church in the UK.
As for Randy Clark; I have heard him speak once on mp3. It was clear that he mixed with word of faith types and was comfortable with them but not clear that he shared their views. In fact he was quite explicit about healing not resulting automatically from a certain level of faith; that he had seen healings where there seemed to be little faith on the part of the person praying or the person being prayed for and that this might upset the "word of faith" types.
The only other thing I know about him really was that Heidi Baker in her book mentions him prophesying over her at Toronto about how her ministry in Mozambique would take off - in a few years afterwards her organisation went from one orphanage and two churches to planting 8,000 or so churches and looking after many more orphans.
She incidentally can't really be described as a "health and wealth person" despite being enthusiatic about healing given that she talks and writes about how she has learnt the most theology from children and the poor. She also talks quite realistically about children coming into their orphanages with Turberculosis, Aids and other STDs for example and then how God has healed one or more of these but not all of these afflictions in response to prayer - a really clear affirmation of the tension of living with the "now and not yet" of the kingdom.
Over 15 million people in nearly 170 countries have attended Alpha courses, and it's still the default evangelistic approach for many evangelical and new missional churches.
And good to read someone who has actually heard Randy Clark.
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
FYI I have actually heard Randy Clark on tape. The message was entitled "God can use little ol' me".
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Rich Clifford
Apprentice
# 16881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
At the risk of turning this into a pond war or a Circus thread, in terms of ridiculous names for ministers there are plenty of non-UK contenders. Winkie Pratney, anyone? Dutch Sheets?
When I was in YWAM many years ago there was an American preacher called Randy Neighbor. And of course there is the worship song writer, Wayne Drain.
Posts: 7 | Registered: Jan 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Or indeed Wimber's sidekick Happy Leman.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Or indeed Wimber's sidekick Happy Leman.
This thread is getting far too intellectual for me! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Then clear off and find another thread, Mark ...
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Anyway, I hadn't realised I'd cause such a furore with my knee-jerk comment about the Gumboid.
And, barrea, of course I was expressing an opinion. I've sure the Rev Gumbel is charm itself. I can't be doing with his style, though and I don't have a lot of time for any of the big name pulpiteers - be they J John (don't ask ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) ), Mark Stibbes or any of the big conference speaker types.
That doesn't mean I don't believe that Alpha has been a very effective (if flawed) evangelistic method (it recognises that people are socialised into the Kingdom and aspects of the format are fine) nor that I'm writing off anything that's been done or achieved by the HTB axis and those influenced by it. Far from it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Darkwing
Shipmate
# 16207
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Posted
My favorite Word of Faith minister name is Creflo Dollar. You can probably extrapolate from his name what kind of ministry he has.
His wife's name is Taffi Dollar, too.
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"Science was my most favorite subject, especially the Old Testament!"
- Kenneth, 30 Rock
Posts: 161 | From: NW Oregon, USA | Registered: Feb 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Thanks, Darkwing, I'd forgotten about them ...
Some things you just couldn't make up ...
On the Randy Clark thing, I suspect Anselmina is right. HTB etc is big enough to weather a few oddballs. Clark's probably nowhere near as bad as some of these guys. I'd be more worried if HTB had Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn or Morris Cerullo along.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I suspect it's a Pond thing, Beeswax Altar. From your Bible-Belt background in West Texas or whatever boondock backwater you hail from originally, you're more used to this sort of thing...
Such a lot of condescension, achieved without even the use of italics!
Good thing Jesus didn't "hail from whatever boondock backwater."
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I suspect it's a Pond thing, Beeswax Altar. From your Bible-Belt background in West Texas or whatever boondock backwater you hail from originally, you're more used to this sort of thing...
Such a lot of condescension, achieved without even the use of italics!
Good thing Jesus didn't "hail from whatever boondock backwater."
Aaah, the italics - these are a must for subtle sarcasm! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Leaf - I sometimes get into trouble on these Boards and in the Cafe for being sarcastic.
I was teasing Beeswax Altar and he's big enough to recognise that. He's teased me back by calling me a 'prat'. A fair call.
I spar with Beeswax Altar a bit, which is fair enough surely? I only tease people I like.
When I look at Nicky Gumbel, I see a bit of a prat. When I read Beeswax Altar's posts I see a different kind of prat. When I look into the mirror I see an even bigger prat.
That's how this stuff works.
One of these days someone is going to invent a 'heavy irony' smilie and then people wouldn't take me so literally whenever I was being ironic or 'post-modern' or whatever the current phrase is for being a pain in the neck ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Several of you have commented above that HTB, for all its quirks, has been a tremendous success in many areas. It's a good, but risky, strategy to invite Christians from all corners of the faith to seek common ground. Nicky Gumbell has been clear about his ecumenicist approach and I like that. I think the CofE benefits from a broad range of approaches, but this 'Sings and Wonders'/'Word of Faith' lot just made me wonder if HTB has finally crossed the border of from 'different tradition' into heresy.
Should they invite the snakehandler churches? Bill Johnson's theology/Christology is not far from Mormonism—will HTB invite Mormons too? I certainly hope not.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Several of you have commented above that HTB, for all its quirks, has been a tremendous success in many areas.
Like you I'm somewhat bemused by this argument - even ignoring how much Alpha owes to the Iwerne approach, and how successful it may or may not be which is the subject of some other thread.
The idea is presumably that if one has a practical innovation to ones name, one can't be wrong theologically?
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I suspect it's a Pond thing, Beeswax Altar. From your Bible-Belt background in West Texas or whatever boondock backwater you hail from originally, you're more used to this sort of thing...
Such a lot of condescension, achieved without even the use of italics!
Good thing Jesus didn't "hail from whatever boondock backwater."
Nice one! ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rich Clifford:
When I was in YWAM many years ago there was an American preacher called Randy Neighbor. And of course there is the worship song writer, Wayne Drain.
Back when I was a Christian we used to refer to it as Young Women After Men due to the high rate of people joining, meeting and getting married.
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
quote:
Originally posted by Rich Clifford:
When I was in YWAM many years ago there was an American preacher called Randy Neighbor. And of course there is the worship song writer, Wayne Drain.
Back when I was a Christian we used to refer to it as Young Women After Men due to the high rate of people joining, meeting and getting married.
And let''s not forget Young Wolves After Maidens. I was based in Salem, OR for several years.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
Bringing up YWAM reminded me that when I was on staff there a speaker was invited to speak at one of the schools. The guy who showed up looked nothing like the speaker we knew and then sounded nothing like the guy some of us knew. Turns out he had the same name, but was heavily into Word of Faith theology. It worked out well, though, because we had many spirited discussions on the very issues raised in this thread and others and students learned not to accept everything wholesale a teacher/speaker said just because they were a pastor/speaker/teacher.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
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barrea
Shipmate
# 3211
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Posted
Gamaliel, sorry thought you meant a whole prat,
not a little bit of one, You really should be more precise. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1
Posts: 1050 | From: england | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Bazinga! as Sheldon Cooper would say.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
For the record, I agree with Anselmina that HTB and New Wine - the dominant charismatic Anglican axis - are big enough and ugly enough to weather having a few oddballs to speak every now and then.
I'm not sure the sky would fall in purely on account of that.
However, there's no room for complacency. To be honest it saddens me that they feel the need to draw in people like this. I've seen the damage they've done on the 'independent sector' as it were. I don't want to see sections of the CofE make similar mistakes.
Still, people have to find these things out for themselves. They certainly don't want to listen to the likes of me.
I think Chris Stiles has nailed it. Because some of these churches have experienced numerical growth and done some apparently innovative stuff they think that they're somehow immune to it all going pear-shaped. There's also a delightful but rather trusting naivete about some Anglican charismatics. They've yet to get their finger's burned ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I may start a new thread about Alpha. It's been done before, but I've thought of a different tack.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There's also a delightful but rather trusting naivete about some Anglican charismatics. They've yet to get their finger's burned ...
They did in Sheffield.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
What happened in Sheffield, Enoch?
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Ah yes the Nine O'clock thingame. ignore me.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Whoa—so was John Wimber one of the Signs and Wonders lot?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, he was, Komensky, one of the main figures on that particular scene and very popular among Anglican and Baptist charismatics in the UK because of his laid-back Californian style. It travelled better than the Midwestern or Southern style of the Word of Faith guys.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
the long ranger: quote:
By the time he came to be ordained, I suspect there was an effort to leave behind his previous life and become a friendly face rather than Rev Gumbel
Of course, since he is English rather than American, he would never have been "Rev Gumbel" but "the Reverend Nicky Gumbel" or plain "Mr Gumbel".
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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