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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Biblical View of Heaven
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
There is no hell, in the traditional sense of everlasting, conscious torment. The saved get eternal life, and the unsaved cease to exist. That's Biblical: all the images of the fate of the lost are of destruction: fire, mainly. Nothing lasts long in fire. If eternal torment was the fate of the lost, the images would be of dungeons, chains and torture implements.
Uh no. That's not biblical. The fire is unquenchable and the torment is forever.
Tho interestingly the naughty angels are kept in chains until the day of judgement in 2 Peter.
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Freddy: Why not look for the information rather than assuming - not unreasonably - that we have no way of really knowing?
I don't really see the point. If there is any information on the afterlife, it's highly fragmentary and contradictory at the very least, so it doesn't really help.
Well, obviously a person would choose what to believe.
We don't just accept all information that comes to us. We have standards for what is acceptable, what is possibly true, what is sheer speculation.
But it's not necessarily fragmentary and contradictory. That's not really the issue. The issue is whether there is any information out there that is true, or could possibly be true, and whether it is sensible and explanatory.
The point is very clear. If you are going on a journey that will last forever, and you have no clue whether or not to bring a swimsuit, you run the risk of living in eternal regret.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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LutheranChik
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# 9826
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Posted
quote:
We don't just accept all information that comes to us. We have standards for what is acceptable, what is possibly true, what is sheer speculation.
The issue is that in traditional Protestant thinking, and when it comes to a discipline like exegesis, we're all pretty much stuck to living with the tension of vague/contradictory allusions to the afterlife in Scripture. Luther, among others, was critical of the sort of extra-biblical problem-solving speculation among theologians that led to all sorts of whiffy Church doctrines.
I'd also disagree that how one understands the afterlife has some impact on his/her soteriological status. At least on my side of the street we don't believe that God's grace is contingent upon people thinking the "right" things about God, heaven, hell, etc. When all is said and done we're left to fall back on God's mercy and the Christian hope, grounded in the Gospel, that God loves us, means us well, wants to save us and has done/will do whatever it takes to effect that.
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I'd also disagree that how one understands the afterlife has some impact on his/her soteriological status.
I agree with this to a point. My belief is that everyone who loves God and their neighbor, in accord with the two great commandments, is saved regardless of their formal religious standing. So it doesn't matter what we know or think about the afterlife in order to enjoy it.
On the other hand, eternity is not an unimportant aspect of a person's overall belief structure. It can be seen as a key element in making sense of existence itself. If we have no idea of what the point of it is then we will say things like "What's the point?" I think that this is a meaningful question to most people.
Having a belief in an afterlife that makes sense is an important part of belief because many people reject belief because it doesn't offer meaningful answers. People disbelieve and even mock the gruesome images of the afterlife that seem to be offered to them in Scripture. For example I love this mock sermon from "Cold Comfort Farm".
Who will believe in Christianity if this is all we can offer?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The fire is unquenchable and the torment is forever.
The fires are certainly eternal. But does that mean that any given soul's stay therein will be?
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Hail Gallaxhar
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Steve H
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# 17102
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The fire is unquenchable and the torment is forever.
The fires are certainly eternal. But does that mean that any given soul's stay therein will be?
Quite. Where in the Bible does it say "the torment is forever"?
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
Where in the Bible does it say "the torment is forever"?
“Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25.41-46
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
What is the difference between non-rehabilitative punishment and torture? And why do you think God is in the business of torturing people?
To me it is helpful to realize that the biblical images of hell are not literal descriptions but vivid metaphors.
Just as there are better and worse places in this world, the same is true in the next. People choose to live where they do for their own reasons, pursuing their own idea of happiness.
Biblical descriptions group and label these destinations for theological reasons and for the sake of the clarity of the message.
But in order to grasp how this can actually work, and how a loving God can allow it, I think that it works better to see the sorting and distinctions involved as things that are completely organic.
That is, as I see it heaven and hell are not situations that are imposed by God but conditions that arise through natural and normal processes, as they function in a spiritual environment.
So it's not eternal torture. It's people doing what they wish to do, even if far less than ideal.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stoker
Shipmate
# 11939
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I'd also disagree that how one understands the afterlife has some impact on his/her soteriological status.
I agree with this to a point. My belief is that everyone who loves God and their neighbor, in accord with the two great commandments, is saved regardless of their formal religious standing. So it doesn't matter what we know or think about the afterlife in order to enjoy it.
Freddy - As you're quoting chapter and verse, I find your position difficult. I presume you are taking your two commands from Jesus' teaching and so accept scripture as the word of God? How can you then not believe that faith in Christ is the only way to salvation? John 14 v 6, I am the way, the truth and the life, one comes to the Father except through me?
How would you judge who has loved God and his neighbour enough to get into heaven? This leaves no room for grace, christ and the cross. I don't get it.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The fire is unquenchable and the torment is forever.
The fires are certainly eternal. But does that mean that any given soul's stay therein will be?
Quite. Where in the Bible does it say "the torment is forever"?
Besides Freddy's quote there are others:
And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into hell,* 48where their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched. Mark
If the fire is never quenched and the worm never dies...I would assume one keeps burning?
Not quite sure what the worm reference is to.
Or 2 Thessalonians:
These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
What is the difference between non-rehabilitative punishment and torture? And why do you think God is in the business of torturing people?
I don't think she is in the business of torturing people. I was just pointing out what the bible says. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Personally I don't think the images of eternal punishment fit at all with the rest of the images of God in the bible.
I do think we will be held accountable somehow and there may be some kind of hell - but not eternal. Ridiculous.
I actually think the Catholics got it right when they invented purgatory.
Makes much more sense.
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Stoker
Shipmate
# 11939
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
What is the difference between non-rehabilitative punishment and torture? And why do you think God is in the business of torturing people?
Personally I don't think the images of eternal punishment fit at all with the rest of the images of God in the bible.
I do think we will be held accountable somehow and there may be some kind of hell - but not eternal. Ridiculous.
I actually think the Catholics got it right when they invented purgatory.
Makes much more sense.
Just because something in the Bible doesn't fit in with the world view you like doesn't mean it can be discarded. When God reveals his name in Exodus 34, one his qualities is that he does not let the guilty go unpunished.
Like you pointed out with purgatory, we are not in a position to start choosing and defining what is true or what we choose to believe from the Bible. Eg: God has chosen to reveal his character and identity in the Bible using the male pronoun, to do otherwide because it fits our world view is a slippery slope where we are the judge of scripture. Truth is, scripture is the judge of us.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stoker:
Just because something in the Bible doesn't fit in with the world view you like doesn't mean it can be discarded.
I didn't say that. I said I don't think the image of eternal torment fits with the image of God in the rest of the bible.
The bible critiques itself.
And I think purgatory makes alot of biblical sense. God wants to save us, not condemn us.
Rehabilitation in purgatory is the possibility. Very biblical idea.
[ 31. May 2012, 03:39: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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Stoker
Shipmate
# 11939
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Posted
[Tangent] So where does the cross of christ fit in purgatory? [/Tangent]
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Stoker
Shipmate
# 11939
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Posted
I don’t want to sound facetious, but I take my view of the cross from the Bible and here’s where I think the Bible says it fits into the world – Jesus Christ died on the cross for sinners (we all are). He was punished on the cross, took the wrath of God in the place of people. The Bible teaches that this leads to forgiveness and imputed righteousness for those who’ll accept it with sincerity, repentance and thanks. Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father. That’s where the cross fits into the world.
I can’t see how that fits into purgatory which has no foundation in scripture.
Whenever talking about end times/ judgement, scripture always talks about 2 specific groups – in/ out, sheep/ goats, wheat/ chaff etc. It doesn’t mention or develop a concept of being able to move between them. If you can show a systematic theology of purg from the scriptures, then please do.
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
Where in the Bible does it say "the torment is forever"?
“Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25.41-46
Everlasting punishment, not everlasting torture. The punishment is annihilation, and it's everlasting because it's final - there will be no future resurrection.
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
What is the difference between non-rehabilitative punishment and torture? And why do you think God is in the business of torturing people?
To me it is helpful to realize that the biblical images of hell are not literal descriptions but vivid metaphors.
Just as there are better and worse places in this world, the same is true in the next. People choose to live where they do for their own reasons, pursuing their own idea of happiness.
Biblical descriptions group and label these destinations for theological reasons and for the sake of the clarity of the message.
But in order to grasp how this can actually work, and how a loving God can allow it, I think that it works better to see the sorting and distinctions involved as things that are completely organic.
That is, as I see it heaven and hell are not situations that are imposed by God but conditions that arise through natural and normal processes, as they function in a spiritual environment.
So it's not eternal torture. It's people doing what they wish to do, even if far less than ideal.
That's a damn sight less biblical than my conditional immortality! You seem to be suggesting a whole spectrum of after-life conditions, whereas the Bible clearly divides them into two - for the saved and the lost respectively.
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
Posts: 439 | From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts | Registered: May 2012
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The fire is unquenchable and the torment is forever.
The fires are certainly eternal. But does that mean that any given soul's stay therein will be?
Quite. Where in the Bible does it say "the torment is forever"?
Besides Freddy's quote there are others:
And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into hell,* 48where their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched. Mark
If the fire is never quenched and the worm never dies...I would assume one keeps burning?
Not quite sure what the worm reference is to.
Or 2 Thessalonians:
These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
Whatever else the images of worm and fire are, they are images of destruction, not of continuing misery. Presumably they never die and are never quenched because they've always got new material to work on, like the fire in the rubbish-tips outside Jerusalem that may have inspired the image. However, I think we're starting to get a bit too nit-picking in our exegesis here. The point is that the images are of destruction, not of conscious, continuing misery - fire and worms, not dungeons and torture implements.
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
Posts: 439 | From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts | Registered: May 2012
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stoker:
I don’t want to sound facetious, but I take my view of the cross from the Bible and here’s where I think the Bible says it fits into the world
I don't want to sound facetious either, but I also take my view of the cross from the Bible. I just take a more well attested and earlier one than yours; Christus Victor.
I'm still not quite sure how its effects would change in purgatory though....
quote:
Originally posted by Stoker:
Whenever talking about end times/ judgement, scripture always talks about 2 specific groups – in/ out, sheep/ goats, wheat/ chaff etc. It doesn’t mention or develop a concept of being able to move between them. If you can show a systematic theology of purg from the scriptures, then please do.
True. Judgement does seem to be rather black and white in the New Testament.
There are certainly any number of passages however that speak of God's mercy and Grace.
Off the top of my head I'm imagining the cycles of sin/wrath/repentance/forgiveness that happen over and over in the Old Testament stories. God never gives up on his people. He always keeps going and remembers his covenant of mercy even though they continually get it wrong ( bit like the disciples in the New Testament huh?).
Anyways, I'm sure the Catholics have got a good explanation. I'll have to look it up someday.
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
Sorry for the multiple posts, but as I've said before, if we had more time to edit, they wouldn't be necessary.
Evensong - on the Catholic view, purgatory is as well as hell, not instead of it. The damned, on their view go to hell; the saved to purgatory first, and eventually to heaven.
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
Posts: 439 | From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts | Registered: May 2012
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
That's a damn sight less biblical than my conditional immortality! You seem to be suggesting a whole spectrum of after-life conditions, whereas the Bible clearly divides them into two - for the saved and the lost respectively.
I think that it's quite biblical.
It's true that the Bible portrays the afterlife in starkly black & white terms. As I said before, though, I think that most people realize that biblical teaching about life after death relies heavily on metaphor and hyperbole. People don't literally "burn." The "fires of hell" describes in vivid terms the hatred that characterizes that place.
I think that the Bible shows that both heaven and hell include a wide spectrum of qualities and conditions. This reflects the enormous variety of human characterisitcs and interests. Some are better and some are worse, but each is different.
The Bible refers to levels of heaven:
quote:
Deuteronomy 10:14 Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the LORD your God.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
It also refers to levels of hell:
quote:
Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in My anger, and shall burn to the lowest hell.
Isaiah 14:15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.
It only makes sense to believe that neither heaven or hell is uniform. The vastly variegated nature of human nature should lead to similarly varied eternal conditions.
Besides, Jesus makes it clear that the "rewards" and "punishments" of heaven and hell go to each person according to their quality.
This is the Old Testament teaching:
quote:
Psalm 62:12 Also to You, O Lord, belongs mercy; For You render to each one according to his work.
Jeremiah 17:10 I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.
Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin.
Ezekiel 33:20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.”
It is repeated in the New Testament:
quote:
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Revelation 20:13 And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Revelation 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
These and other teachings support the idea that heaven and hell are not monochromatic destinations, but reflect a varied universe of conditions and states.
All of this is made possible by the Lord's grace and goodness, so that everyone's place is alloted to them with perfect fairness and precision.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
Everlasting punishment, not everlasting torture. The punishment is annihilation, and it's everlasting because it's final - there will be no future resurrection.
I can see your point. It's fair. I've never thought of it that way before.
Yet if punishment is everlasting, then it can't be annihilation. Annihilation is nothingness - not punishment.
And their IS future resurrection for the unjust:
John 5.29: and will come out—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
Whatever else the images of worm and fire are, they are images of destruction, not of continuing misery. Presumably they never die and are never quenched because they've always got new material to work on, like the fire in the rubbish-tips outside Jerusalem that may have inspired the image. However, I think we're starting to get a bit too nit-picking in our exegesis here. The point is that the images are of destruction, not of conscious, continuing misery - fire and worms, not dungeons and torture implements.
Possible, again. But not the initial and most natural reading I would suggest. It doesn't say the fire is unquenchable because new people to burn are being added. That's an assumption.
And the worm never dying...?
[ 31. May 2012, 13:05: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stoker:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
My belief is that everyone who loves God and their neighbor, in accord with the two great commandments, is saved regardless of their formal religious standing. So it doesn't matter what we know or think about the afterlife in order to enjoy it.
Freddy - As you're quoting chapter and verse, I find your position difficult. I presume you are taking your two commands from Jesus' teaching and so accept scripture as the word of God?
Yes, I take the Old and New Testament as the Word of God.
quote:
Originally posted by Stoker:
How can you then not believe that faith in Christ is the only way to salvation? John 14 v 6, I am the way, the truth and the life, one comes to the Father except through me?
Yes, one comes to the Father only through Jesus. But there are a number of ways to interpret that.
I believe that Jesus Christ is the one only God of heaven and earth. He is one with the Father. To come "through Him" is to believe and live in the way that He taught. Essentially this is about loving God and the neighbor. This is possible for every person of every religion, but obviously it is more possible for people who know Christ's words.
He said:
quote:
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22“Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7.21-23
I take this to mean that doing the will of God is what is important, and that this is what it means to hear Jesus' words and come "through Him" to the Father.
quote:
Originally posted by Stoker:
How would you judge who has loved God and his neighbour enough to get into heaven?
The biblical image of judgment is standing before God, or before Jesus, and He knows the heart of every person. But I believe that this is imagery describing a more subtle and organic process in which everyone finds their own place, each led by God in his or her own way.
For those who love God this means following Him into the happy life that is called heaven. For those who care only for themselves this means ignoring Him and living as they please, with less happy results.
quote:
Originally posted by Stoker:
This leaves no room for grace, christ and the cross. I don't get it.
It is all about grace, Christ and the cross.
As I see it, Jesus overcame the power of darkness in order to set people free so that we can choose our own way. All people have been redeemed in this way, and people are saved who live and believe as Jesus taught.
The cross was the final struggle in which Jesus broke the power of hell. In rising again on the third day He taught us the difference between physical death and spiritual life.
God's grace and love are about leading every person to an eternity of their own choosing, and protecting them from the powers that would take away that choice. Whether that choice is objectively good or evil, happy or painful, the choice is left to us because God loves us.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Stoker:
I don’t want to sound facetious, but I take my view of the cross from the Bible and here’s where I think the Bible says it fits into the world
I don't want to sound facetious either, but I also take my view of the cross from the Bible. I just take a more well attested and earlier one than yours; Christus Victor.
Yes! ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
Everlasting punishment, not everlasting torture. The punishment is annihilation, and it's everlasting because it's final - there will be no future resurrection.
I can see your point. It's fair. I've never thought of it that way before.
Yet if punishment is everlasting, then it can't be annihilation. Annihilation is nothingness - not punishment.
And their IS future resurrection for the unjust:
John 5.29: and will come out—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
Whatever else the images of worm and fire are, they are images of destruction, not of continuing misery. Presumably they never die and are never quenched because they've always got new material to work on, like the fire in the rubbish-tips outside Jerusalem that may have inspired the image. However, I think we're starting to get a bit too nit-picking in our exegesis here. The point is that the images are of destruction, not of conscious, continuing misery - fire and worms, not dungeons and torture implements.
Possible, again. But not the initial and most natural reading I would suggest. It doesn't say the fire is unquenchable because new people to burn are being added. That's an assumption.
And the worm never dying...?
I can't remember the details - I'll see if I can find them online, and post them if I do - but I've read it argued that "everlasting" and "for ever" are used elsewhere in the Bible to mean "final and irreversible". There's a description in the OT of the destruction of a city which says something like "the smoke of its destruction rises for ever". Obviously that wasn't literally true; the fire burned itself out and then died. What the writer meant, presumably, was that the city destruction was complete and final - it would never be rebuilt. Similarly, one could argue, with the everlasting fire and worm of hell - complete and final destruction, not torture.
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
An excellent article, summarising the two sides of the debate, here. It touches briefly on the point I made above, about the descriptions of the destruction of cities, but doesn't give details, unfortunately.
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
Posts: 439 | From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts | Registered: May 2012
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