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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: When ministry becomes a deflated balloon...
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I was thinking of one large church with four or five lay or ordained (would have to have at least a couple ordained if it's Anglican) full time paid ministers.
The CofE doesn't much go for megachurches, we much prefer the local parish.
We do too. But 60% of our parishes are not financial ( they cannot pay their own way and are subsidized by the Diocese and other parishes).
The Buzz is that the move is being made to restructure things on a rather large scale.
I'm hoping it will go the way I have outlined above. I have heard a Bishop hint as to something like "working closer together".
I'm thinking four or five full time leaders for a parish of about 300 - 500.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I'm experiencing a patch of severe disillusionment with my role as a lay minister. I don't get any joy or satisfaction in it anymore.
Part of it is a feeling of not being appreciated. In addition to "front and center" assisting duties some Sundays I also took on our church's online presences, which included our website, a blog and our church Facebook page; it turns out that our pastor doesn't even read any of it, and judging from the minimal feedback I've ever received (usually from friends elsewhere)hardly any one else does either, so I've basically said, **** it to the blog (which I'd originally envisioned as bringing some added depth to the readings for each Sunday, commemoration days, interactive "fun" stuff, etc.). Ditto the Facebook page, which I had tried to seed with interesting websites and things I found on the Web.
Doing our monthly newsletter is another task of mine. Our pastor is a horrible procrastinator (and this is coming from an admitted procrastinator) who nonetheless refuses any help at all in writing the articles -- I'll get them about 24-36 hours before deadline, usually in a ridiculous continuous narrative that has to be broken up into separate articles anyway. On about three occasions now, too, I've had to take the blame for date/time errors regarding upcoming events even though the pastor's the one who's sent me the erroneous information. (And this is just one example of interpersonal...stuff I have to put up with; the other story is too long to tell here, but it was a case of blindsiding me when I needed some moral support that left me feeling patronized and insulted.)
I was on light duty, volunteer-wise, in the months after my seizure last September; have also been away in Florida for a couple of months on family business with our kids; I admit thoroughly enjoying that time away from lay ministry...going to church when we wanted to, actually getting to sit in the pew with my DP in what came to be our Florida church-away-from-home and worship without being called into action in some way, not being bothered with the communications stuff.
Now that we're home and I'm slowly getting back into the swing of things (I had a recent injury and was out of commission for another two weeks), I feel my stress amping up again.
We have two other lay ministers. One is aspiring to bigger and better things and is now a Synodically Approved Minister, a notch up the food chain from my position, meaning that he gets his marching orders directly from our bishop's office and spends many if not most Sundays on assignment to various pastor-less congregations in our synod. So the other lay minister and I have been having to alternate "on" Sundays on a fairly frequent basis. And she has her own complicated life going on in the midst of this, and is feeling burned out as well. Neither of them have the aptitude or interest in helping with any of the communications-oriented jobs I've been doing. Nor does anyone else in the congregation.
Right now the prospect of jumping full-tilt boogie back into my previous lay ministry schedule does not fill me with gladness. I'm ready to say **** it to the whole endeavor. I don't know what I was expecting to do when I got involved in lay ministry, but not this sort of seat-of-the-pants, disorganized volunteer gig, and not while enduring the alternately neglectful/patronizing treatment. I'm just tired. And all of this is rapidly eroding my spiritual life. I actually dread showing up in church tomorrow morning, Pentecost Sunday, not only because I don't want to be roped into some unforeseen task but because I frankly don't want to hear about how swell church "community" is. It's not very swell for me right now for a number of reasons.
[ 26. May 2012, 17:50: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
LutheranChik, sounds like you need to step away from doing stuff at church and just concentrate on yourself, home, family and other kinds of work - or whatever will refresh you. If s/he didn't sound like such a numpty I'd say talk to your pastor about it, but maybe you need to chat with some other spiritual advisor with a bit of objectivity.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
If we insisted that congregations had to be that large we'd have to close 90% of our churches - maybe more because whenever two churches merge the new one never gets as many members as the two old ones used to have, which is one reason that the fashion for closing churches when parishes merge that we had in the 1960s-1980s is now over. It decimated church attendence in many urban areas. Never quite took off the same way in rural areas - which is why many rural churches share one full-time minister between five or more congregations. I've heard of eleven which is getting absurd.
And we would lose the real benefits of having a local church in every community. Most of our congregation can walk to church on Sunday. That's really worth something.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Myers-Briggs is a load of old bollocks - and if they use that in selection in any way it unlikely to be helping.
That is usually said by people who have encountered it used badly or who have little self-knowledge.
Or have actually looked at the research evidence.
OK, I have been told off, but you made an unsubstantiated assertion that MBTI was 'a load of bollocks'.
I have worked with it for over twenty years in both education and ministry.
I am well aware of research that exposes it MISuse.
Can you back up your sweeping and dismissive assertion by some evidence, please?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
If you look at my link above you will find referenced discussion as to the problems with its construct validity.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I second Anselmina's suggestion LutheranChik. As it's eroding your spiritual life rather than helping it to grow, something must change.
While it isn't all about us and how we feel, if we feel frustrated and undervalued it will impact on our spiritual life & so it must be addressed.
I was interested in your comments about your colleague. 'Bigger & better things' and 'up the food chain' imply a higher status. I wonder whether our ideas about status sometimes cause conflicts in us. If we think the leader gives us lesser status than others this may equate with feeling undervalued. The leader may be completely unaware of how his or her actions and attitudes impact on us.
How many people bring what they were told about team working and character types as in Myers-Briggs etc into real life? Only if training is put into practice until it becomes habitual will it have been effective.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
If you look at my link above you will find referenced discussion as to the problems with its construct validity.
Thank you - I will look at it tomorrow, when i have more time and we have 'done Pentecost' - this issue is too important to me to gloss over it in a hurry. though any website called 'FooFoo' doesn't inspire much confidence.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
How many people bring what they were told about team working and character types as in Myers-Briggs etc into real life? Only if training is put into practice until it becomes habitual will it have been effective.
I have done so on an almost daily basis.
When i was a Head of Dept., I used it as a tool for my staff. We all found it invaluable to understand how to get the best out of each other rather than finding our differences irritating e.g. meeting (or now) declines.
I used a junior version on my pupils. It helped them on their 'Who am I? quest. (Danger - only trained MBTI folk should use it at all, especially on kids.)
In our church ministry team, ditto what I said about my dept.
As a spiritual director, I use it with each newe directee if they consent - and nobody hasn't nor has any found it unhelpful - in fact all have been enthusiastic and grateful.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Follwoing on from LutheranChick'c earlier comments and one made later:
How many of us truly take the time to become aware of how our actions and attitudes impact others?
And if we did, would it make a difference to our working lives?
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Raptor Eye: I have no desire to get involved in the SAM program. Everyone I know who's gone that route has wound up spending most of their Sundays away from their families, sometimes at the opposite end of the state, leading worship in underserved parishes. That's not something I want to do or would ever subject my partner to.
I mentioned this individual's work only because it takes him out of the lay ministry rota much of the time, placing more of a burden on us. And it erodes the idea of a team effort -- I mean, we'll have lay ministry meetings, but they wind up being about comparing calendars and trading "on" Sundays.
Sorry to whine. It's just frustrating and disappointing -- no "there" there, just filling a slot on a rotation. It makes me sad, because I used to enjoy doing what I do.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
OK, I have been told off, but you made an unsubstantiated assertion that MBTI was 'a load of bollocks'.
I think "bollocks" here is a technical term used by scientists to describe things that really no-one with any sense ought to believe. Like young-earth creationism, or the idea that the moon landings were faked in Hollywood, or enneagrams.
Myers-Briggs is only marginally bollocks compared with those things. There is a plausible story behind it. Unfortunately when you look into it it turns out not to be true. Its good fun as a sort of ego-boosting party game, but it is not a serious description of psychology.
And we've had at least three or four long long threads about it in the recent past here so there is probably no point in repeating it all. In the unlikely event that anyone is interested in the old threads the two longest of them seem to be here and here.
The second one contains an overlong, but I think fair, description of how MBTI is supposed to work (mostly of its fans don't seem to realise) and also some very sensible contributions by Timothy the Obscure, including some links to some other sites. Though I would say that because he agrees with me on this.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I don't want to start a tangent (so PM me for full details - I'll merely skecth here) but cannot allow Think²'s assertion to go unchallenged. I looked at all his links and, just as I expected, the 'research' on MBTI is based upon its MISuse.
The paper by Ron Zemke talks of MBTI being used over a two hour period. Proper use takes far longer - a convent near me spreads it over two residential days.
David J. Pittenger shows woeful ignorance - he reckons J stands for judgemental - it does NOT. He concludes that it 'should not be used for career planning counselling'. Indeed it shouldn't - that is exactly what MBTI practitioners are taught. There is often a list of 100 jobs related to each of the 16 types. These are NOT suggestions. They are simply a survey of what careers these types went into - summative, not formative. (Having said this, if MBTI is used alongside other careers education material, it has an uncanny knack of being accurate - the last time i did a battery of tests, the result came back with: teacher, minister of religion, social work, barrister, at the top. I had seriously considered all but the barrister job during my teens and early twenties and have done/am doing the first two and loved/am living almost every minute on the job.
Pitenger also says, 'MBTI claims to reveal a subjects’ inborn, unchanging personality type'. That is absolutely NOT what MBTI claims. Far from innate, our preferences develop as a way of coping with all our experiences, e.g. my father was biploar and my mother often told me to be very quiet because 'You will make daddy ill.' So my natural, boyish exhuberance was crushed and I spent long hours alone, in my bedroom. Thus, I became an introvert.
BUT it is not fixed for all time, as the researcher suggests. A lifetime in teaching, a love of performing amateur dramatics, preaching - all of these have bought out my extroversion. One aim of MBTI in spiritual direction is to help people become rounded - to tone down some preferences and to 'bring up' less-preferred shadow sides.
The 16 types are not indetikit nor static - the four 'letters' are a dynamic - which is discovered when we work on 'the inferior function' - the most difficult thing to understand and which these researchers clearly haven't.
[ 27. May 2012, 18:09: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Leo, perhaps we should start a different thread on this. There are two key issues as I see it - whether a tool measures something reliably over time, and whether it measures what it says it measures. And I don't think the MBTI does either.
It's about as insightful as statements like these:
"Most of the time you are positive and cheerful, but there has been a time in the past when you were very upset."
"You are a very kind and considerate person, but when somebody does something to break your trust, you feel deep-seated anger."
"I would say that you are mostly shy and quiet, but when the mood strikes you, you can easily become the center of attention."
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Raptor Eye: I have no desire to get involved in the SAM program. Everyone I know who's gone that route has wound up spending most of their Sundays away from their families, sometimes at the opposite end of the state, leading worship in underserved parishes. That's not something I want to do or would ever subject my partner to.
I mentioned this individual's work only because it takes him out of the lay ministry rota much of the time, placing more of a burden on us. And it erodes the idea of a team effort -- I mean, we'll have lay ministry meetings, but they wind up being about comparing calendars and trading "on" Sundays.
Sorry to whine. It's just frustrating and disappointing -- no "there" there, just filling a slot on a rotation. It makes me sad, because I used to enjoy doing what I do.
Thank you LutheranChik. There's no need to apologise. I think it's a good thing to express our frustrations in a safe place. Sometimes it helps us to recognise our feelings and decide what, if anything, to do. That's probably why the people I spoke to in the op told me about the mismatch they perceived between calling and reality.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
I think most people in ministry are naturally the keenies. Be they lay or ordained.
As a lay person I went to church 2 or 3 times on Sundays and would be involved in 1 or 2 other things in the week, would read theology & spirituality for pleasure. Would head off for bible weeks and retreats as a natural extension of my faith. All whilst working 50 hours a week.
Thing is most of the Church isn't really like that. Which is okay. But if you have been a keenie most of your life, trained with other keenies, even married a keenie you develop a huge disconnect with where most people actually are in terms of commitment. This can lead to easily deflatable ministers who assume & expect too much.
Now you can deal with this in a number of ways. Plant a church for keenies only (High or Low), rail against the congo for lack of commitment (which is how you could read this post), or try to learn some patience and serve people where they are.
Because thankfully however we engage with discipleship in this life we have Purgatory to sort us out afterwards. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Leo, perhaps we should start a different thread on this. There are two key issues as I see it - whether a tool measures something reliably over time, and whether it measures what it says it measures. And I don't think the MBTI does either.
It's about as insightful as statements like these:
"Most of the time you are positive and cheerful, but there has been a time in the past when you were very upset."
"You are a very kind and considerate person, but when somebody does something to break your trust, you feel deep-seated anger."
"I would say that you are mostly shy and quiet, but when the mood strikes you, you can easily become the center of attention."
Mostly? Shouldn't be.
When I do MBTI with a directee, I give them a 26 page response.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I'm experiencing a patch of severe disillusionment with my role as a lay minister. I don't get any joy or satisfaction in it anymore.
Part of it is a feeling of not being appreciated.
A colleague of mine once commented that people don't generally feel burned out as a result of being too busy, they feel burned out because their work is not appreciated. In my limited experience, she was right. Knowing that your work is actually useful to someone and that it is appreciated is an important part of being able to derive satisfaction from doing it. If it's only a matter of being too busy, a break should be sufficient to restore your ability to enjoy the work.
[ 28. May 2012, 18:11: Message edited by: W Hyatt ]
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Eleanor Jane
Shipmate
# 13102
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Right now the prospect of jumping full-tilt boogie back into my previous lay ministry schedule does not fill me with gladness. I'm ready to say **** it to the whole endeavor. I don't know what I was expecting to do when I got involved in lay ministry, but not this sort of seat-of-the-pants, disorganized volunteer gig, and not while enduring the alternately neglectful/patronizing treatment.
Hi LutheranChik,
Goodness this rang some bells with me! It seems to me that a church that isn't seat-of-the-pants... neglectful etc. is rarer than hen's teeth.
As I progressed in my career (not that I'm a high flyer at all!) I had to pull out of church commitments 'cos I just couldn't cope with the crapness! I was speaking a whole 'nother language and the Vicar (in particular) didn't even realise that the language existed.
I guess it's the nature of the beast where ministers can't be experts or even competant in all or most of the wide variety of tasks they're involved in and where any volunteer who is willing (pretty much) is given open slather to do whatever.
Well done for stopping doing things - it's wise to pilot something like Facebook or a blog, review and scrap it if it's not working/ is too much work for the results. In my previous church I found a lot of a) going after every idea that anyone came up with b) overwork and c) not reviewing or stopping projects.
I hope you find some more rest and restoration and wisdom for your choices.
Cheers,
Eleanorjane
Posts: 556 | From: Now in the UK! | Registered: Oct 2007
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
By the laws of carry on, Leo, I am obliged to respond that size isn't everything. Do you wish to start an actual thread on this ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
By the laws of carry on, Leo, I am obliged to respond that size isn't everything. Do you wish to start an actual thread on this ?
No, it has been done before.
However, my last word on this is a challenge to you. If you ask me by PM, I shall send you a MBTI 'test' and, when you return it to me, I will 'mark' it and return detailed results to you and they will be nothing like the platitudes and generalisations which you think makes up MBTI but which is more akin to horoscopes in red top newspapers.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
OK - but I also want a reference to at least one scientific study in a peer reviewed journal that is not by, or backed by , the people promoting and marketing the assessment.
Deal ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
OK - but I also want a reference to at least one scientific study in a peer reviewed journal that is not by, or backed by , the people promoting and marketing the assessment.
Deal ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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