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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Does being a Christian mean you'll never work in a natural history museum?
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
I've just been struck by this notion as I've tried to pursue a career path in educational software.
I have two potential clients. Client A is a start-up application programmer who wants to write an app that explains bird evolution from dinosaurs and pitch it to the local museum. Client B is a devout Pentecostal Christian with a lot of useful contacts and exciting project possibilities.
I've just refused to work with Client A in order to not offend Client B later down the track. I confess that I decided this more on a political basis than a religious one.
Now I'm not looking for a evolution debate, but I'm wondering what Christian public school-teachers do when natural history or paleontology is the study topic. Do they choose teaching roles that avoid the subject, do they simply share the knowledge they've been given or do they explain where popular beliefs are wrong at the risk of damaging their careers?
[ 03. June 2012, 07:00: Message edited by: Ancient Mariner ]
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Depends what sort of Christian you mean. And in what way are A and B connected so that if you work for A then B finds out about it?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
Now I'm wondering what Christian public school-teachers do when natural history or paleontology is the study topic.
Teach the subject, I imagine. We're not all crazy closed-mind creationists, you know.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Depends what sort of Christian you mean. And in what way are A and B connected so that if you work for A then B finds out about it?
Client A wants to work on a profit-sharing basis. I'm expecting that means that I will be a part-author of this. I have asked Client B about this and he's said it's my choice not to believe the Bible.
Client B believes there isn't different sorts of Christians.
[ 31. May 2012, 10:51: Message edited by: Highfive ]
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
Client B believes there isn't different sorts of Christians.
Client B is wrong.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
^ I take that back. He's not like all other Pentecostals I've met and he does believe there are different sorts.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
... I'm wondering what Christian public school-teachers do when natural history or paleontology is the study topic. Do they choose teaching roles that avoid the subject, do they simply share the knowledge they've been given or do they explain where popular beliefs are wrong at the risk of damaging their careers?
"This is how it happened, and if God disagrees he can smite me with boils in the next five seconds ..... No boils? Right, as I was saying, this is how it happened..."
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
I need to get out of this fucking city.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
...I'm wondering what Christian public school-teachers do when natural history or paleontology is the study topic. Do they choose teaching roles that avoid the subject, do they simply share the knowledge they've been given or do they explain where popular beliefs are wrong at the risk of damaging their careers?
In the UK, I believe science teachers are obliged to teach the theory of evolution by natural selection. I suppose the get-out clause for creationist Christians is that they can simply teach what the theory claims, and say 'this is the scientific consensus' without saying they believe it themselves.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
... I'm wondering what Christian public school-teachers do when natural history or paleontology is the study topic. Do they choose teaching roles that avoid the subject, do they simply share the knowledge they've been given or do they explain where popular beliefs are wrong at the risk of damaging their careers?
"This is how it happened, and if God disagrees he can smite me with boils in the next five seconds ..... No boils? Right, as I was saying, this is how it happened..."
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
Now I'm not looking for a evolution debate, but I'm wondering what Christian public school-teachers do when natural history or paleontology is the study topic. Do they choose teaching roles that avoid the subject, do they simply share the knowledge they've been given or do they explain where popular beliefs are wrong at the risk of damaging their careers?
Every Christian teacher I know who teaches natural science teaches actual science, because they are not stupid fundamentalists. Are you one of those who think you can't be Christian if you don't believe that the Earth was actually created 6000 years ago, or that Satan fabricated dinosaur bones and carbon-14 to lead the faithful astray?
Any person who believes Genesis to be the factually accurate account of the formation of Earth, life and the human species has absolutely no business teaching science classes where an understanding of modern science on the origin of life on Earth is necessary. Any creationist who does so is a fraud. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Depends what sort of Christian you mean. And in what way are A and B connected so that if you work for A then B finds out about it?
Client A wants to work on a profit-sharing basis. I'm expecting that means that I will be a part-author of this. I have asked Client B about this and he's said it's my choice not to believe the Bible.
Client B believes there isn't different sorts of Christians.
I know a guy in a niche market (he isn't the sole supplier in the UK, but there are only a few) who supplied his services to Rangers FC and Celtic FC. They aren't however his total customer base (a good thing, given the state Rangers FC is in) but business is business and he has to take risks.
As for Christian science teachers, those I know teach the syllabus. As that varies, so does the teaching.
Just as an aside, I'd look very carefully at profit-sharing. Does this mean risk-sharing too?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
I need to get out of this fucking city.
You mean the one that gave us Sir Joh and Pauline Hanson.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
Yes, that one. Don't forget Bob Katter, Mad as a Hatter.
I'm TRYING to find level-headed people here, I swear!
[ 31. May 2012, 11:26: Message edited by: Highfive ]
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
I don't like the wording of the OP, since 'Christian' isn't and never has been synonomous with 'Young Earth Creationist'.
However, in the spirit of debate, I'm happy to ignore the push-button language and engage with the issue. I know that YEC science teachers for instance do teach evolution as its on the curriculum, even though they may not do it particularly well since they don't understand it, and make perhaps more of repeatedly framing it as 'just a theory' than necessary.
But even nonYEC Christians have similar issues when they are RE teachers, or doctors, where they have to help the student or patient but aren't ethically allowed to proselytise or evangelise. If you are a psychiatrist and a Christian for instance, there is a tension between one's personal beliefs that may see the symptoms as partly spiritual in cause, and the reality that any attempt to voice these beliefs and try to help the patient spiritually will cross a serious ethical line. If a teacher is approached in the classroom by a student who sincerely wants to know about Jesus and hear the gospel, how does the teacher deal with this without crossing the line? Yet committed Christians walk this line every day.
The difference is between passive engagement with the ethics and laws of the land, (basically not doing what you see as good so you can keep your job), and actively choosing to assist in promoting something you may see as sinful. The YEC science teacher would struggle more with the latter, while the Christian psychiatrist may struggle with the former.
In regards to the OP specifically, I'd suggest that if Client B is a YEC, that does not necessarily preclude him interacting with and going into business with you and Client A. The problem is only if he wants to make a stand and refuse to work because he sees it as promoting something he believes is wrong and (possibly) harmful. This is his personal choice between himself and his conscience though. Depending on his personal beliefs, he may choose either way. Probably best to talk to him about it rather than making assumptions and then making business decisions based on those broad-brush assumptions.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
... I'm wondering what Christian public school-teachers do when natural history or paleontology is the study topic.
Well, you could always ask what Ghillean Prance does, one of the best-known botanical taxonomists in the world (well, the admittedly not that large world of botanical taxonomists) who was recently the Director of Kew Gardens, which (as well as being a beautiful place to spend a Sunday afternoon) is one of the two or three most important research centres into systematics and evolution in the world. Or RJ (Sam) Berry, recently professor of genetics at UCL, and author of some seriously good books about ecology and evolution. Or Simon Conway Morris, who is as near to famous as a paleontologist can get (he was the reluctant "hero" of a book by Steven Jay Gould). Or if you want an American, Francis Collins, who was director of the Human Genome Project. (Yes, that Human Genome Project).
That's four well known biologists, all of them both researchers and educators, who are all Christians, all evangelicals, at least two of them conservative evangelicals, and who have been vocally opposed to YEC. I doubt if any of their careers has suffered because of that. So why should your guys?
Also, if I read the OP right, your programmer "Client A" isn't losing out on job opportunities because of fundamentalist yeccies. He isn't losing out because some craven school board is givng in to anti-scientific lobbying. He's losing out because you won't work with him. Why would you want to do that?
Disclaimer here: I work in a university, I'm a computer programmer, and I study biology. The particular part of biology I got my Masters degree in is bioinformatics, and the bits of biology I am most interested in are genetics and evolution and ecology, so pretty much the exact sort of thing your programmer seems to be thinking of doing. So it strikes a nerve. It feels like you are telling me not to do my research because its bad for your business.
And from a research scientist's point of view letting commerical pressure dictate your results is a serious no-no. One of the worst scientific or scholarly sins in the book. It probably counts as a little worse than faking your data or plagiarism, but isn't quite as bad as shagging the students or designing secret superweapons for mad dictactors to install in hidden underground bases on remote Pacific islands.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
Highfive, if you let your career development be determined by what you imagine some potential employer may like or dislike, you will have a pretty miserable and unproductive career. If educational software is what you want to do, you should take the opportunity that best allows you to develop your professional skills.
My guess is that those loonie YACs would love to have an employee who had developed a killer app for teaching evolution, and wouldn't be at all interested in hiring a true believer who couldn't code his way out of a paper bag. So developing your skills in such a way that you can show potential employers that there is real technical value in hiring you will always be in your interest.
Forget about playing mind games with imaginary employers and concentrate on learning your craft. I've been a medical device software engineer for as long as there have been medical software developers, and that approach has stood me in good stead in my career path. FWIW
--Tom Clune
[ 31. May 2012, 12:53: Message edited by: tclune ]
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Simply from a commercial point of view, I would have thought that there will be many, many more client As than there will be client Bs (even in Australia...)
Yes, I know some YECcies. One of them even teaches physics. The majority of Christians-who-are-scientists are comfortable with and affirm the age of the Earth and the process of evolution without regarding themselves as shameful heretics. I'm one of them.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Let's leave aside the question of evolution and look at this more objectively.
You sell your skills on the open market in educational software. Unless you decide you want to pitch yourself entirely at a market of scientific biologists or religious organisations, you need all the business you can get.
I'm retired now but when I was working, the organisation I worked for had a lot of environmental policies e.g. on using sustainably sourced hardwoods. I had a lot of difficulty getting some colleagues to understand that it was utterly unreasonable, and indeed nonsense, to expect their contractors to agree to use only the right sort of wood 'full stop', rather than just on the contracts they did for my organisation, that their other customers were entitled to decide what sort of wood they used on other contracts and whether they were willing to pay more for the 'right sort'.
To put it another way. If I hire someone to do some work for me, I am entitled to say how they do that work. If that costs me more, I have to expect to pay for that.
I am not entitled to say that if someone else hires them to do something else, I have any say in how they work for that someone else. That is that client's decision, not mine. They deliver to suit that client. What I happen to like or not like is irrelevant.
So in your case, you are entitled, and it is quite proper, to say (tactfully) to both A and B,
'In what I do for you, you can tell me what you require and I will do what I can to meet it. You are not entitled to dictate - either directly or indirectly - what my other clients may require. That is not just interfering with my freedom, but theirs'.
If a customer doesn't accept that, and you can afford to, I would say, drop them. Otherwise you are in hock to them, but carrying the risk to your business yourself.
That's how I'd apply that to contracts.
Going back to your actual question, which was about teachers, if the school has a syllabus that contains X, I'd imagine you teach X, i.e. the official line. The head, though, is not entitled to insist that every teacher is always willing to put their hand on their heart and lie to their pupils by saying they actually believe X utterly and unequivocally.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Teach the subject, I imagine. We're not all crazy closed-mind creationists, you know.
This.
I'm a Christian Primary school teacher in a Church school, of course I teach evolution!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
My uncle has a doctorate in Geology and Paleontology. He heads up the Mammoth Digs in Hot Springs, South Dakota. He has gone to Russia a couple of times to dig up frozen Mammoths. He hopes to be able to clone one and bring it back to life. Did I mention he is a Christian?
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I can't see what the problem is.
Even as far back as the 1970s, my own biology teacher described it thus: there are two possible ways I could approach this subject - by teaching evolution or creationism. As I'm the science teacher, I will teach evolution. If you want to know about creationism, ask your RE teacher.
It seemed to make sense then, and it makes sense now.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Chorister quote:
I can't see what the problem is.
Even as far back as the 1970s, my own biology teacher described it thus: there are two possible ways I could approach this subject - by teaching evolution or creationism. As I'm the science teacher, I will teach evolution. If you want to know about creationism, ask your RE teacher.
It seemed to make sense then, and it makes sense now.
The potential problem, Chorister, is that the RE teacher might not support the Biology teacher, and present Creationism as an alternative scientific explanation to natural selection. The damage Creationists have done to the credibility of Christianity is incalculable. Obscurantism should have no place in Christian thinking and teaching.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I think as teenagers, though, we were rather good at making up our own minds. Rather too good, our teachers and parents would have probably said. So not too much danger there....
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
I hope you are right. I agree that teenagers will make up their own minds, but will be persuaded that a scientific view of the world is incompatible with religious faith and reject the latter. Creationism does not help Christian apologetics.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
Sioni Sais - Profit-sharing looks like the only viable way to get work started for freelancers these days. As far as risk-sharing is concerned, there is a strong explanation of the risks on this thread. Client B is not a loonie, but he does have a real headache right now.
Boogie - Thank you!
Thank you very much for your responses, guys! I wish I could change the thread title now, if I could.
The potential problem for me is business relationships. I gain work through making connections and choosing the right ones to maintain. Client B has a mind-boggling amount of energy and the means to see one of my long-term dreams become reality. We've been talking about it for over a year and he's been able to gather quite a few influential people in that time. I would like to see people like him succeed. Now that I've worked for him for a short time, I've seen that he often overestimates what his team can achieve. I just recently learned that his devout family believes he needs to have his feet a little more on the ground if he is to go forward.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
quote:
I would like to see people like him succeed
I should say, "I would like him to succeed". I've had a gutful of people "like him"
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I can't see what the problem is.
Even as far back as the 1970s, my own biology teacher described it thus: there are two possible ways I could approach this subject - by teaching evolution or creationism. As I'm the science teacher, I will teach evolution. If you want to know about creationism, ask your RE teacher.
It seemed to make sense then, and it makes sense now.
And the overwhelming majority of RE teachers here would support evolution over creationism.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Stranger in a strange land
Shipmate
# 11922
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I can't see what the problem is.
Even as far back as the 1970s, my own biology teacher described it thus: there are two possible ways I could approach this subject - by teaching evolution or creationism. As I'm the science teacher, I will teach evolution. If you want to know about creationism, ask your RE teacher.
It seemed to make sense then, and it makes sense now.
Seems to me that this presents a false dichotomy between science and religion.
Posts: 608 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Creationism does not help Christian apologetics.
No?
My A level Biology teacher (a Christian)said before he taught evolution that not everyone agreed with it, but it had to be taught as it was on the curriculum. He then taught it, not mentioning the disagreement again.
The upshot was that students asked him about what the disagreement was, and he was able to share his faith, freely admitting that unlike him some Christians believed in evolution as well.
Dawinism becomes an opportunity for evangelism, fantastic ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) .
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
My A level Biology teacher (a Christian)said before he taught evolution that not everyone agreed with it, but it had to be taught as it was on the curriculum. He then taught it, not mentioning the disagreement again.
The upshot was that students asked him about what the disagreement was, and he was able to share his faith, freely admitting that unlike him some Christians believed in evolution as well.
That's all well and good, as long as the students don't end up being...
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
...persuaded that a scientific view of the world is incompatible with religious faith and reject the latter.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Highfive: I know I am speaking from the comfort of a place where my livelihood isn't contingent on schmoozing clients...but my reaction, as I've read this thread and your additional comments regarding the situation, is -- don't let assholes dictate your professional life.
Client B doesn't approve of Client A? Tough titties. Client A is none of his business. Move on.
BTW, when I was at university my town-and-gown university congregation was loaded with professors from the various science colleges -- not a fundamentalist among them. It's very sad to me that in 30 years "Christian" has become so synonymous with "fundamentalist" that people can't fathom the idea of a Christian scientist who isn't some sort of reactionary loon.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
Yes, but this application for Client A has the potential to lead onto more work explaining evolution. I don't see it moving onto other fields like astronomy, medicine or geology.
If I develop that while also showing in an interest in understanding intelligent design with Client B, who is the asshole now?
"It is the glory of God to conceal matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings" Proverbs 25:1
That's pretty much where I stand on it.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
Sorry, Lutheran, that came out a little angry. You're right about Client A's work being none of Client B's business. Assholes should not dictate another's professional life.
My apologies, my issue is not what the OP is about. Schoolteachers make a wage from teaching students curriculum. Everyone understands that. Evolution may be a part of that curriculum. That's not an issue.
Developing an app that explains evolution means that you earn a profit from promoting evolution. You directly compete against other apps explaining how life was formed to continue earning a profit. The issue is, can I make a profit promoting evolution if I'm am lending an ear towards understanding intelligent design? I don't believe that I can.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Highfive, though I disagree with your values myself, I would have to say first you have to be true to what you value yourself.
For me, there is no issue between religion and science. The creation stories are statements of belief that God created everything--and as Luther would put it--continues to be involved in creation. The seven day creation story affirms the total involvement of God in creation, but it does not indicate the mechanics of creation. Evolution looks only at the mechanics of creation but says nothing about who is behind it or why creation happened. Moreover, the Biblical creation stories (and there are more than two) affirm the goodness of nature. This was a very radical thought at the time the creations stories developed. It still is a radical thought today.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
Any person who believes Genesis to be the factually accurate account of the formation of Earth, life and the human species has absolutely no business teaching science classes where an understanding of modern science on the origin of life on Earth is necessary. Any creationist who does so is a fraud.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
And one would wonder how they got a science degree. Nothing in biology makes sense without evolution (which I think is a quote, but not sure whose).
I also recall Stephen Jay Gould's writings about watching court testimony from teachers who discussed in court that there was no credible way to mention 'other views' contrary to evolution, because of there being no science data to support 'other views'. And when asked what they would do if forced by law to represent creationist views at all, even by mention, one stated to the judge 'it would be my tendency to break the law'. Because to mention nonscience views in a science class forces the discarding of the foundation of science. There is no room for another view that is not a science view. Period. The integrity of such people astounds me. As does the misunderstanding of science such that mentioning belief based ideas is not seen as harmful to basics of the subject.
Another discussed a class exercise where time from the big bang forward was represented by a string help at particular milestones by students, she said if forced to represent creationism 'I'd have to get a short string' to laughter.
Being Christian does not mean you reject facts. It means that you seek truth, including scientific truth.
[ 01. June 2012, 03:30: Message edited by: no_prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
...and to think that Client B was excitedly lending out his copy of Heroes Season 2
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
Developing an app that explains evolution means that you earn a profit from promoting evolution. You directly compete against other apps explaining how life was formed to continue earning a profit. The issue is, can I make a profit promoting evolution if I'm am lending an ear towards understanding intelligent design? I don't believe that I can.
What do you mean by 'lending an ear'?
Do you mean stroking their ego?
I would say go with your own integrity every time. Money isn't worth letting go of that for. There will be plenty more clients down the line.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Also, "promoting evolution"?
When I teach a unit on rockets (as I have just done), am I "promoting gravity"? Or am I helping to explain how the world works?
Evolution should be an uncontentious theory for all the reasons above. That some highly misguided Christians have chosen to make it contentious does not reflect (a)the opinions of most Christians or (b)what God clearly intended.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
What do you mean by 'lending an ear'?
Do you mean stroking their ego?
It was him saying "I was a skeptic, too" then passing me PDFs of YECs making cases against evolution. He said it was enough to convince him. It made scientific cases against evolution, but there was still a huge gaping hole in how there would be any useful gain in researching intelligent design.
I can't go into his ego. I just suspect that good must be happening if I'm pissing him off all the time from asking innocent questions.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
"scientific cases against evolution" - I mean logical cases.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Any Christian who would be bothered by my working in a natural history museum has needs deeper than anything I could do regardless of where I worked or didn't.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
Doc Tor, if you made a software program that allowed you to design rockets and see how they fly in simulated space (like Kerbal Space Program), you would, in a sense, be promoting space rockets as being-
Shit, it's his ego
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
Damn edit time limits.
Doc Tor, writing software about evolution doesn't promote it, I admit, but it makes people aware of it. If Client B has an issue with greater awareness being made for evolution, he must be afraid of something.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Highfive: Does being a Christian means you'll never work in a natural history museum?
As long as he keeps his conversation about the bees and the flowers, he'll be alright ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
I need to get out of this fucking city.
You mean the one that gave us Sir Joh and Pauline Hanson.
I hate to admit it, but Sir Joh was actually a Kiwi - from a small town called Dannevirke. I believe, though the Aussies were welcome to him. Fair swap, they gave us possums, which decimate our native birds = we gave them Sir Joh.
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Sometimes others' Christian beliefs can make working with integrity difficult. At the job I have just finished*, I was the only non-YECcie and it meant that I refused to go near teaching science, although it's what I'm actually trained to teach, rather than the maths and PSE I have been leading. It was an option, and the official reason was that the syllabus for the Entry Level is huge and practically impossible to cover†.
We had an assembly slot recently when the Elim Pentecostal minister said in passing that "some Christians even believe in evolution" at which I piped up "including me" to hear background muttering that showed that nobody else did. And my mental fulmination was along the lines of thick arts graduates (two English teachers, one with a goodness-knows-from-where theology degree) who have no maths let alone any scientific understanding.
* shoestring alternative education where current funding means the funding has got so stretched they can't afford to pay me and no, they aren't going to make me redundant - they've found volunteers and people who can cope with being paid late and erratically to fill the gaps;
† because it's alternative education, the subjects covered are maths, English, PSE, ASDAN to nod at everything else, and this year as bonus, Art & Design and ICT care of me, and History from a History teacher coming to the end of extended maternity leave one morning a week, plus cooking for life taught by another teacher coming in on her afternoon off.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
To be fair to the Client Bs of this world, there were times and places in the early Church when there were all sorts of jobs you couldn't do if you wanted to become a Christian. I haven't got my copy of Hippolytus's Apostolic Tradition to hand, but isn't there a section in that that discusses the issue? Soldiers, I think, can't become Christians. (Or Christians can't become soldiers. Or both.) And I think teachers can't be Christians either - because they teach the Greek and Roman myths in school.
And we think we've got it bad because some unevolved Christians don't like evolution.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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