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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Approved Seminaries by Diocese
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KevinL
Apprentice
# 12481
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Posted
Thanks Wilfried for your insight. I don't think you sound unreasonably judgmental, I think my situation would raise the same flags and questions that you have put forward.
Posts: 35 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Mar 2007
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KevinL
Apprentice
# 12481
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Posted
Thanks Wilfried for your insights. I don't think you sound unreasonably judgmental at all; if I were reviewing someone in my situation I think I would have the same red flags and questions.
Posts: 35 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Mar 2007
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by KevinL
I do not have a problem with initiating formal discernment during or after seminary, but that would not be ideal.
Before you go to seminary there is a set process you need to go through. First, you tell your parish priest you think you are called. Obviously, in order to do this you must have a parish priest. The priest will appoint a discernment committee consisting entirely of laity. The discernment committee meets with the candidate over a period of months and makes a recommendation to the vestry. If the recommendation is favorable the vestry recommends the candidate. Without the recommendation of the vestry and priest, no bishop will consider the application.
The point of the parish recommendation is that these people have had some opportunity to interact with you. They know you in a way that an interviewer cannot know you.
This is the normal process, and I don't think you can bypass it.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Sorry to sound stupid here, but why would you want to go for ordination in a religious set-up of which you were not a part?
I don't understand why anyone would want to do such a thing.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Ahleal V
Shipmate
# 8404
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Posted
To throw a spanner into the works, if it's an Anglo-Catholic formation you're after, and possibly outside the remit of the standard seminaries of TEC, then you wouldn't be the first to investigate going to St Stephen's House, Oxford or the College of the Ressurection, Mirfield.
You'd probably have to do (at least) a top-up year in an episcopal seminary, but degrees in England are shorter than in the US, and for all I know, it may even be cheaper!
AV
Posts: 499 | From: English Spires | Registered: Aug 2004
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LA Dave:
Bishop Bruno has been extremely respectful of the Anglo-Catholic parishes in his diocese. When one of them, a small parish with financial and other problems, needed a new interim priest, the diocese made a point of selecting a male priest with impeccable Anglo-Catholic credentials. Even though Bishop Bruno fully supports women in the clergy (and serves with two female suffragan bishops), he respected that parish's wish to continue to have only male clergy. Similarly, there was no interference when St. Thomas the Apostle in West Hollywood moved its altar to the wall and elevated its already somewhat spiky liturgy with the rectorship of Fr. Ian Davies. Bishop Bruno also has not interfered with Blessed Sacrament parish in Placentia, which he allowed to have alternative episcopal oversight and appointed its Anglo-Catholic rector as an honorary cathedral canon.
Please do not assume anything about Bishop Bruno without knowledge of the man.
I actually do have some connections in such matters. It is one thing to support Anglo-Catholic churches (something that most bishops do), but it is another altogether for most modern bishops to approve Nashotah-aspirants for seminary training on the basis of their Anglo-Catholic zeal. There has even been an Anglo-Catholic bishop or two of Chicago who has adamantly not sent ordinands to Nashotah House. I may not know Bishop Bruno personally, but from what I hear it would behoove KevinL to steer away from too much Anglo-Catholic zeal, or perhaps any bishop will desire he attend a contrary seminary to mitigate it a bit!
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
I would suggest that while you might be currently able to choose which church you would like to be part of, once you are ordained you are there for life. As a result, I would suggest that it is very important to have experience of the church before going forward for ordination. There is no point in choosing a bishop who will allow you to go to a seminary of your choice if the church you will end up serving is one you cannot live with.
You are very much putting the cart before the horse. Find a church and settle there. Find out where you want to live out your faith. Then, and only then, will you know what the priesthood is (because the way different churches approach priesthood is different) and where you can best be formed for it.
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
Martin: Bishop Bruno has not only agreed to the sending of seminarians to Nashotah House but also to Trinity. If there is one thing that I admire most about Jon Bruno, it is that he is very "catholic" in his approach to the preferences of his people. I have never heard any account of his discriminating against any particular seminary, though I would not be surprised if a postulant were counseled to attend a seminary like General or Pacific or Claremont, where many other Diocese of LA priests were educated, if no reason than to increase the likelihood of a finding a job. There is no question that many parishes might shy away from hiring a curate from Nashotah, but that is an artifact of the Episcowars, not of Bishop Bruno's prejudices.
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
To be frank, KevinL, if you go to a seminary and qualify MDiv without going through what is, all said and done, the TEC's "job selection process", thereby gaining the resultant sponsorship, you may well end up without that job.
Speaking from the TEC's point of view, I think they'd see you as attempting to bypass certain essential steps.
Put aside any notion of God calling you: you are applying for a job with an organisation whose regional branch heads usually have a clear idea of what sort of (preferably) young man or woman they want in their stores.
I've never, thankfully, put myself forward for ordination. How the Divine Hand works in the process, having "benefited" from exposure to some of the "selections", I remain sceptical. But I think you have, because you have no choice, to chance it.
Thanks Moo and Beeswax Altar.
I can see your point, Lyda*Rose, and take it. Would be hard at Nashotah if you were XX. There must be, to put it mildly, a certain creative tension between the place and TEC. I think it's the development of genuine personal holiness, or the attempt to do so, which impresses me about it. Many other seminaries seem very dry, intellectual and formal.
BTW, as far as genuine personal holiness goes, as evinced by real insight, Lyda*Rose, I'd have to give you very high marks, even though, like myself, you are a layperson and do not, like myself (as far as I know) possess any formal theological qualifications.
That is another problem I see with many potential ordinands in the Anglican Communion: the concept the priesthood is "an officer's job" and that, once they have graduated from the appropriate "spiritual West Point or Annapolis", they are there to lead. To me that's the wrong concept of spiritual leadership and quite contrary to Christ's teaching.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
I admire Nashotah House's commitment to forming seminarians in a monastic liturgical environment, which is probably easier in a rural lakeside setting than midtown Big City. Or is it? Could some TEC seminaries do with a strong liturgical component?
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Nashotah isn't the only seminary with a strong liturgical component. General is known to have a strong liturgical component. Even Sewanee has a strong liturgical component albeit of a Low to MOTR form.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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KevinL
Apprentice
# 12481
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Posted
Thanks Sir Pellinore for the practical perspective and the bit of encouragement.
Posts: 35 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Mar 2007
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Sir Pellinore (ret'd): quote:
BTW, as far as genuine personal holiness goes, as evinced by real insight, Lyda*Rose, I'd have to give you very high marks, even though, like myself, you are a layperson and do not, like myself (as far as I know) possess any formal theological qualifications.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) Thank you.
I took a look at the Nashotah House site and I think I could see what you find attractive about it. I grew up in a church that was much more AC than the one where I am now. Much as I love my current church, a lot of the tenets I cherish most are the more Catholic ones. I pray that women's experiences at the House are among the reported good ones. In fact, if Nashotah House lives well with the tension of opinion, that could be a source of strength for an ordinand.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I suspect, Oblatus, the House is not so much trying to form seminarians in "a monastic liturgical environment" (there is quite a presence of women and children around btw) but, like Cuddesdon (near Oxford), to bring out the inherent holiness in all of them (which we all possess and need nurturing in btw) through liturgy and its development into a genuine 24/7 spirituality. Hence I think the strong informal links with Orthodoxy might help.
It is interesting, isn't it, Lyda*Rose, what initially sets us of on our search for "that quiet interior place"? Reflective liturgy, silence and genuine prayer - which I suspect is something you remember from your earlier AC days with great joy - is something which never leaves you.
I hope that, at places like Nashotah, they do realise women are just as capable of genuine holiness as men. It would be a tragedy otherwise.
KevinL: sounds like, if you really feel that way, you should "give it a go". Please do find an Anglican church where they recognise that everyone is different and "shaping" people does not mean submitting them all to a "spiritual sausage machine". I think you already have senses of "who" and "where" you are. A church, or seminary, needs to work with the grain, rather than against it.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by KevinL:
I do not have a problem with initiating formal discernment during or after seminary, but that would not be ideal.
At least as far as TEC is concerned, not doing formal discernment would result in not being ordained, so you might wish to reconsider that.
A number of people have noted that in TEC, discernment happens in community. I will note that *ministry* happens in community.
If you want to start out in community with a more AC-leaning place, the names of parishes have been helpfully provided (by people who live a ways from LA ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ). Learn the ropes, get to know people. They will be your support system when The Process throws you a curve ball. Because it will.
This isn't like the business world, where you could be the hot-shot executive hired in from the "outside". Everyone essentially starts at the equivalent of the mailroom and works up to the other jobs.
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
...
A number of people have noted that in TEC, discernment happens in community. I will note that *ministry* happens in community.
...
The official Anglican discernment process does, indeed, start in one's local parish community and work its way through to the diocesan selection board.
Some parish communities are excellent; others wet and some morbidly ill and co-dependent. A wise choice, guided by genuinely wise counsel and using one's inbuilt spiritual antenna would be essential.
I try to think of it as "priesthood" rather than "ministry", the latter being somewhat woffly IMO and connoting active social outreach, which is part, but not the whole of priesthood.
A priest is, I believe, essentially someone set apart, not in a hierarchic sense, to bring, in whatever measure he or she is capable, the reality of the living Christ into people's lives. Quite a challenge.
The best priests, like the Orthodox St John of Kronstadt, who actually wrote on the subject of his priesthood, are those who do exactly this. His spiritual goodness was evidenced in his very practical proactive material intervention in the lives of so many in and out of his discrete church community. Without a graced spiritual life he would've been a mere chatterbox.
I suspect KevinL has been struck by an insight into a deep and graced spiritual life he was privileged to observe. This is often the start for many people. Of course there are the practicalities he must needs go through, but, one hopes, if he is genuinely called and develops himself spiritually with appropriate assistance, the selection panel might, with God's guidance, chose him.
He sounds like he could be the sort of person the Anglican Communion desperately needs. I wish him all the best on the sometimes challenging road ahead. He's probably had more than enough good advice and merits our prayers and best wishes, rather than further discussion, which can tend to hinder and discourage rather than assist him to at least try out for it.
God bless KevinL. Go for it!
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
A number of people have noted that in TEC, discernment happens in community. I will note that *ministry* happens in community.
The official Anglican discernment process does, indeed, start in one's local parish community and work its way through to the diocesan selection board.
Some parish communities are excellent; others wet and some morbidly ill and co-dependent. A wise choice, guided by genuinely wise counsel and using one's inbuilt spiritual antenna would be essential.
I try to think of it as "priesthood" rather than "ministry", the latter being somewhat woffly IMO and connoting active social outreach, which is part, but not the whole of priesthood.
I agree with you that the term "ministry" is a bit woffly, but it's a lot more than "active social outreach" and, in its broad spectrum, not limited to the ordained.
There's always a community aspect to it, even if the individual is working independently, because it is to meet one or more of the community's (gathered or wider) needs.
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I take your point, Amazing Grace.
My concern with a concept of "general ministry" by everyone in a parish, which is, in theory, a thoroughly good thing, is that people need to be clear as to where their talents and abilities lie and stick to where they are genuinely of use. Many times they are not and thus create the most enormous mess which someone else needs to fix. Sadly, many clerics do not understand that they need to get involved and do this when it reaches a certain stage.
"Pastoral care" by some people can be a form of co-dependence which is sub-Christian in my view. It is very hard sometimes to realise that you need to hold back and not attempt to "save" someone because they are in the process of learning to fly with their own wings. I'm not sure about Anglican churches in the Bay Area, but, where I live in Brisbane, Australia, many churches and many churchgoers seem to be well and truly down the co-dependency pathway.
I do think there are certain areas in Anglican church life where the priest needs to be the leader for a number of reasons.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
I do think there are certain areas in Anglican church life where the priest needs to be the leader for a number of reasons.
No disagreement there. But this seems to have wandered far afield from the discernment process in TEC and why community is important in it .
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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