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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Anglican Church is the worship of Britishness
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Has anybody noticed that the title of this thread can be sung to 'O worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness'?
The Anglican Church is the worship of Britishness
So let us all have a nice cup of tea,
And thank God we're British with all of our twittishness
For God is a Briton, just like you and me.
Our English and Welshness, our Irish and Scottishness -
Cricket and Rugby and Scotch and warm beer
(But not too much, dear, for we can't abide sottishness) -
These are the things that we'll always hold dear.
The French and the Germans, the Poles and the Japanese
(Foreigners all, and some Papists as well)
Are all filled with envy that we lack their crappyness:
We're off to heaven, while they're off to hell.
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
Posts: 439 | From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts | Registered: May 2012
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) enough with the beer and the cod poetry ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Has anybody noticed that the title of this thread can be sung to 'O worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness'?
That's actually pretty wonderful...and no, I hadn't noticed it until you mentioned it.
If you could come up with a few more lines (or a whole verse) it might be the best thing to come out of this thread!
Your wish is my command. See above.
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
Posts: 439 | From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts | Registered: May 2012
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
enough with the beer and the cod poetry
Cod is a fish that we British like battering
Plus chips and vinegar, from the chip shop.
And we like beer, if it's warm, with a smattering
Of some pork scratchings, to eat till we drop.
Revision to verse 1, above: delete "For", line 2, so that it fits the tune better.
[ 05. June 2012, 17:47: Message edited by: Steve H ]
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
Posts: 439 | From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts | Registered: May 2012
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
Just popping up to point out that "introvert" does not necessarily mean "likes formal, liturgical, traditional worship". I'm definitely an introvert socially but have always preferred something more informal, and latterly, more charismatic in terms of worship style.
Also I'm British and that doesn't mean those things either.
Posts: 3690 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Steve H
Shipmate
# 17102
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Posted
Also, insert a colon after "twittishness".
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Hold to Christ, and for the rest, be totally uncommitted.
Herbert Butterfield.
Posts: 439 | From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts | Registered: May 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
The Anglican Church is the worship of Britishness
So let us all have a nice cup of tea,
And thank God we're British with all of our twittishness
For God is a Briton, just like you and me.
Our English and Welshness, our Irish and Scottishness -
Cricket and Rugby and Scotch and warm beer
(But not too much, dear, for we can't abide sottishness) -
These are the things that we'll always hold dear.
The French and the Germans, the Poles and the Japanese
(Foreigners all, and some Papists as well)
Are all filled with envy that we lack their crappyness:
We're off to heaven, while they're off to hell.
It started off well...
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
Lager?
Pah!
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Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Well, the Church of England was set up, quite deliberately as a national church, where the Pope (until then supreme head honcho in the West) explicitly had no authority. That, to me, has always defined it.
Historically it was the Church the upper classes (except the recusants) attended. Shopkeepers etc. tended towards Dissent.
In Australia these days you still have a strange attitude, amongst the most unusual people, that, because they are Anglican and Anglo-Saxon they are somehow socially "superior" to the Micks down the road who they regard as descendants of the Irish and therefore ipso facto "lower class". They'd certainly be surprised to meet English Catholics like the Duke of Norfolk! Chase away that assumed social superiority in no time!
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
The fact is that churches which are attended by British people will be "British". What do you expect?
This is nothing new, either. The pre-reformation church in England had ways of doing various things that differed from those on the continent. The apologia for the Church of England depends upon its continuing this heritage-- a point stressed, I think, by Percy Dearmer in The Paron's Handbook, as well as certainly by the Tractarians. In part, cherishing national and local customs has historically struck a blow for freedom from Rome.
quote:
certain forms of evangelicalism / fundamentalism in the USA seem to be a "worship" of a certain kind of American culture.
You bet. I'd guess that we have a much worse problem in the U.S. in this regard than anything now characterizing the Church of England. The C of E probably went overboard with jingoism in the early 20th century and still suffers from the resulting fallout. Perhaps it was a chastening lesson.
I want to agree entirely with AberVicar. However, we must remember that Incarnational theology affirms physicality. Images, ideologies, and institutions are really something else, as William Stringfellow warned.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Clearly the essence of Britishness is the consumption of beer at the correct temperature. It's useful that future generations yet to come should know this, lest they be drawn into the ways of wickedness and iniquity.
Amen! Preach it, brother!
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve H:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Has anybody noticed that the title of this thread can be sung to 'O worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness'?
The Anglican Church is the worship of Britishness
So let us all have a nice cup of tea,
And thank God we're British with all of our twittishness
For God is a Briton, just like you and me.
Our English and Welshness, our Irish and Scottishness -
Cricket and Rugby and Scotch and warm beer
(But not too much, dear, for we can't abide sottishness) -
These are the things that we'll always hold dear.
The French and the Germans, the Poles and the Japanese
(Foreigners all, and some Papists as well)
Are all filled with envy that we lack their crappyness:
We're off to heaven, while they're off to hell.
Flanders and Swann would be proud of you!
What our National Anthem SHOULD be
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
I want to agree entirely with AberVicar. However, we must remember that Incarnational theology affirms physicality. Images, ideologies, and institutions are really something else, as William Stringfellow warned.
Glad you want to agree with me. Stringfellow's warning is at odds with Paul (Col 1.15-20; Eph 1.15-22 are the most obvious passages). What understanding of 'all things' allows the exclusion of any part of creation?
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Britishness, up until recently, has been Christianity expressed in culture and politics. That is out of date now due to many people from other cultures and other faiths joining us.
Nevertheless, the majority of the British people expect and respect the fact that Anglicanism is indeed the way the British 'do' God.
Britain without Anglican Christianity would not be British.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Notwithstanding the exaggerated caricature of the OP, and the fact that many, probably most anglicans, don't conform to it, pursuing the frivolous tangent in that vein:
Our country is noted for grey skies and raininess,
Picnics and flags as the mercury dips;
So our churchfolk are renowned for their zaniness:
Hymns of praise forced through their stiff upper lips.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Is there something about the way the British do religion, or is it reflected in every culture?
I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. John Major notoriously including spinsters cycling to communion in his list of things he thought were particularly British or English (I think he was quoting Orwell at the time). But a certain idea of the Church of England is included within a certain idea of Englishness. The idea has very little to do with most of the people living in England or indeed with most of the Church of England.
You use the word 'Britishness' as if there's no problem in treating it as the same as 'Englishness'. That's a sign that something's wonky.
Here in Scotland I'm attending an Episcopal church. The flavour is recognisably the same as most high-up-the-candle CofE churches; yet there's no sense that we really wish we were in England. We could quite legitimately be celebrating Bonnie Prince Charlie (the Scottish Episcopal Church was started because the bishops were all loyal to his father), yet there's not much celebrating Romantic Scottishness either. So, no, I don't think the practices you're objecting to are about celebrating Britishness.
No doubt it varies between church to church depending on the congregation and clergy.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Clearly the essence of Britishness is the consumption of beer at the correct temperature.
Yes, it keeps us off the gin for five minutes...
Posts: 1262 | Registered: Jul 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Here in Scotland I'm attending an Episcopal church. The flavour is recognisably the same as most high-up-the-candle CofE churches; yet there's no sense that we really wish we were in England. We could quite legitimately be celebrating Bonnie Prince Charlie (the Scottish Episcopal Church was started because the bishops were all loyal to his father), yet there's not much celebrating Romantic Scottishness either. So, no, I don't think the practices you're objecting to are about celebrating Britishness.
IN what way is Scotland or the Scottish Episcopal Church not British? Just as British as England is.
Anyway, the real point about the stereotypes of the CofE in the OP is that they are those held by the secular majority who never go to church and have no explicit Christian belief. The actual CofE churches mostly aren't like that at all.
And remember, worldwide the average Anglican is an evangelical. And she's black.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
(snip)
Britain without Anglican Christianity would not be British.
Oh dear. So Britain before Henry VIII wasn't British?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
(snip)
Britain without Anglican Christianity would not be British.
Oh dear. So Britain before Henry VIII wasn't British?
No. Before Henry VIII the Pope was still an Anglican.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Um, well, no it wasn't actually (except - possibly- as a then slightly archaic geographical expression, or, later in the C16, as a conscious reference back to a supposed Arthurian past). It was England+ Wales, and Scotland. You really start being able to talk about 'Britishness' maybe after the Union of the Crowns 1603, more likely after the Act/Treaty of Union of 1707.
Although, as Linda Colley has shown, once 'Britishness' does come in, it is closely associated with, among other things, being Protestant (although not necessarily CofE because the whole point of 'Britishness' for Colley is that it's an additional identity which can be shared by English & Scots) rather than, like the French, Spanish etc, RC. (Cross-posted with ken.)
[ 06. June 2012, 13:17: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
OK, seriously, Mudfrog was talking rubbish. Even more so than the OP was. The classic Church of England, back in the 18th and early 19th centuries when it was at its most distinctive was surely a huge part of Englishness, and its residue still is. And that version of the Church of England was hugely nationalistic and very much (though not exclusively) the church of the ruling class. The masters rather than the servants. And its bishops were as much politicians as preachers. Many governments relied on their votes in the Lords, and most Prime Ministers, before the end of the 19th century if not the begining of the 20th would appoint bishops for their party loyalty more than their doctrine.
That really existed ( a sort of English Shinto I once called it) it was dominant in the 18th and much of the 19th century, and it dragged on into the 20th, but its gone now. The Church of England is not like that any more. Maybe those outside it think it is, or it ought to be. But those who are actually members of CofE churches aren't like that. It is very much about worship and proclamation and stuff chruches do. And since Bishops have been selected for sacred rather than secular reasons they've on the whole been far to the left of the governments that authorised their appointment.
We can't say there is no Englishness without it because no more than about a third of the English people have been members of the Church of England since the 17th century. OK, lots of them were baptised in it, and a few of them married in it, but of those that went to church probably half have been Nonconformists and increasingly large numbers Roman Catholic. Congregationalism and Methoidism - there are two utterly English ways of doing religion.
But even if we forget the current or former realities of the Church of England and stick with the toasted-teacake version, a vast amount of what is now thought of as Anglicanism, at least at the Anglo-Catholic end, is recently imported from Rome and not culturally English at all. Down to and including choirboys in surplices. (There probably weren't twenty parish churches in England that did that when Queen Victoria came to the throne, and most of them cathedrals. The ordinary parish experience was said Morning and Evening prayer with chanted psalms led by a parish band if you were lucky. The more evangelical places might have had gallery singers - adult men and women singing stuff that sounds a bit like what the Americans call shape-note music, and a bit liek the twiddly bits at the ends) And no candles, no robes, Holy Communion four times a year and not many people taking it. Thats the true genius of English church life is the Protestant Hymn Sandwich. The Salvation Army -as Mudfrog ought to know - is in many ways more distinctively English than MOTR catholic-lite Christmas-card Anglicanism is.
And anyway, even if the whole OP guff was true, which it isn't, you can only say there is no Britishness without it unless you think that Scots and Welsh are merely a kind of failed English who will grow out of it one day and become properly English like the rest of us. The Kirk - there is a truly British institution!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Ken wrote: quote:
a vast amount of what is now thought of as Anglicanism, at least at the Anglo-Catholic end, is recently imported from Rome and not culturally English at all. Down to and including choirboys in surplices.
You may have just overstated that one a bit, Ken. Surpliced choirboys were certainly in evidence well after the reformation. There are paintings of various choirs from the 17th century around. If memory serves, the choir dress for the chapel royal at that time was cassock, surplice and fur shoulder-cape. The famous Laudian "surplice wars" were about the very subject matter - there wouldn't have been surplice wars if people still hadn't been wearing them in choir.
Probably also true in places like abbey churches and royal peculiars. In fact, incense was used in a few cathedrals up into the 18th century, when its use ceased. I've no idea how that one got past the puritans, but perhaps they just hid it meanwhile.
Stuff like lace, loads of candles and the like - well, fair enough. Roman influence. But I don't think you can say that the recovery of an indigenous practice constitutes a foreign import.
Don't let my detailed quibble detract from the rest of your post, however. I agree with your thumbnail sketch about what the average parish church service would have looked like.
There are numerous other foreign imports. The use of a preaching "Geneva" gown was a foreign import, though that one seems to have gone away from Anglicanism in its British manifestation.
The replacement of hymns (largely, then totally for a spell) by metrical psalms was very much a reformed import from Geneva. Though they in turn were influenced by the thoughts of Erasmus, who remained a catholic. Not that hymns went away - there are records of them being sung by the very same west-end choirs, though outside the liturgy.
CofE Anglicanism has never been immune from foreign influences or indeed direct imports, in any of its manifestations, evangelical, catholic or otherwise. Probably all balanced on the export side too of course.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
Stringfellow's warning is at odds with Paul (Col 1.15-20; Eph 1.15-22 are the most obvious passages). What understanding of 'all things' allows the exclusion of any part of creation?
Then somehow Paul is at odds with Paul, too. Where does Eph. 6:12 fit in? "For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." God created all the angels, including Satan. Then something happened.
[ 06. June 2012, 15:14: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
Stringfellow's warning is at odds with Paul (Col 1.15-20; Eph 1.15-22 are the most obvious passages). What understanding of 'all things' allows the exclusion of any part of creation?
Then somehow Paul is at odds with Paul, too. Where does Eph. 6:12 fit in? "For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." God created all the angels, including Satan. Then something happened.
Indeed: and Paul's point is that it is all to be drawn to God in Christ.
And my point is that you and I are not qualified to make distinctions over what may or may not be in Christ, even though our experience might suggest that some things are clean contrary to everything that is holy.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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jordan32404
Shipmate
# 15833
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Posted
I think there's probably some worship of "Britishness" among some who worship in Anglican churches, particularly at choral evensongs. But I think good worship is a central point in our ethos as Anglicans. Worshiping the Lord "in the beauty of holiness" is one of our trademarks and I just happen to think that we can put on a good show, so to speak, meaning we do liturgy well, high, broad, or low, you'll find a good liturgy in Anglicanism. I always say, I'm no fan of High Masses but if I were to want a High Mass, I'd take an Anglican one over a Roman one any day.
Posts: 268 | From: Albany, NY | Registered: Aug 2010
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
IN what way is Scotland or the Scottish Episcopal Church not British? Just as British as England is.
They are British. What I said was that they don't seem to be about celebrating any definite notion of British national identity, either English or Scottish. I suppose I didn't explicitly rule out some less definite notion of Britishness but I'm not altogether sure what that would mean.
Anyway, the rest of what you said.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Being a regular churchgoer of any denomination in Britain today is something of a counter cultural position to be in. This surely limits the extent to which churches can consciously promote Britishness.
On the other hand, only the CofE has a cultural and historical presence that non-churchgoers still recognise on a wide scale. The Nonconformists have mostly disappeared from public consciousness. So for non-churchgoing Christians, the CofE, more than any other church, represents Britishness. I get the impression that the Anglican clergy mostly appreciate this position. They appreciate being the first Christian port of call for British people.
This representation of Britishness doesn't have much to do with what actually happens in Anglican churches, since most people don't really know what happens.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
I think there's probably some worship of "Britishness" among some who worship in Anglican churches, particularly at choral evensongs.
It seems to me that the outlook at evensong, at least in cathedrals, is too universal and cosmopolitan to deserve "particularly." The canticle repertoire is almost entirely British by necessity: no one but Anglicans pair Mag and Nunc, and the chanting is also called Anglican; but the anthems have long ventured far beyond the British Isles. Bach, Brahms, and Palestrina, for instance, would be no surprise at all.
quote:
But I think good worship is a central point in our ethos as Anglicans. Worshiping the Lord "in the beauty of holiness" is one of our trademarks
Definitely, although it is mostly by default. Liturgical rubrics and manuals in Roman Catholicism (among others) commend equal care and dignity, but rarely do those in charge pay much attention. In the case of the Irish, it has been suggested that they glory in poor taste because good taste is British. Alas, Irish influence is the rule in the RCC in the U.S. Another problem: many RC congregations still stubbornly refuse to sing hymns audibly because of Irish ancestors who were afraid to make that much sound at mass. American parishes catering to other nationalities are exceptions, but they can be dramatic ones (at least in the past) regarding the liturgy.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
...So for non-churchgoing Christians, the CofE, more than any other church, represents Britishness. I get the impression that the Anglican clergy mostly appreciate this position. They appreciate being the first Christian port of call for British people.
Yes... indeed, this is the trap I fell into and remained in shackles for many years.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
...So for non-churchgoing Christians, the CofE, more than any other church, represents Britishness. I get the impression that the Anglican clergy mostly appreciate this position. They appreciate being the first Christian port of call for British people.
Yes... indeed, this is the trap I fell into and remained in shackles for many years.
If this is a trap, perhaps you could suggest a better alternative?
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
...So for non-churchgoing Christians, the CofE, more than any other church, represents Britishness. I get the impression that the Anglican clergy mostly appreciate this position. They appreciate being the first Christian port of call for British people.
Yes... indeed, this is the trap I fell into and remained in shackles for many years.
If this is a trap, perhaps you could suggest a better alternative?
That's a hard one... I had to go through much trauma to cut my ties... I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but I am beginning to understand how God moves in mysterious ways. I have found an alternative - Orthodoxy.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Britishness is alive and well in flagship Anglican services eg. those for the Royal Family or other special events in Westminster Abbey and other cathedrals. Other Anglican churches are busy shooting themselves in the foot by trying too hard to be just like the Methodists/Baptists/Pentecostals/Choose-your-other-denom.-here group. They have forgotten that unity can best be found in diversity and are watering down what the Anglican church can distinctively offer. In my own humble opinion, of course.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Orthodoxy.
Well there's a group of people that have no difficulties whatsoever confusing national identity and faith.
[ 06. June 2012, 20:25: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Mark Betts
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Orthodoxy.
Well there's a group of people that have no difficulties whatsoever confusing national identity and faith.
In England???
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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mdijon
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Posted
So Orthodoxy is only appropriate in England? You'd go Anglican in Greece and Quaker in Russia?
Anyway, among immigrant communities in the UK, yes there is a great deal of ethnic and national identity bound up in Orthodox groups.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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HughWillRidmee
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Posted
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Originally posted by the long ranger:
Well, I'm sure that is true. I guess I'm wondering if we Brits have become unable to see the difference between religion and nationalism, the extent that we confuse one with the other.
Jerusalem booming over the loudspeakers in Morrisons supermarket this evening (no they didn't; next daft question please) then I realised that it sounded as though it was recorded at a football stadium - so presumably it'll be played several times a day until we get knocked out of/win the European Championship.
quote:
who actually likes warm beer these days?
Not my tipple - but if you have to drink it so cold that you can't actually taste it perhaps you're drinking the wrong drink?
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
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Mark Betts
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
So Orthodoxy is only appropriate in England? You'd go Anglican in Greece and Quaker in Russia?
Anyway, among immigrant communities in the UK, yes there is a great deal of ethnic and national identity bound up in Orthodox groups.
Times have changed. There were ethnic problems in the Orthodox Church, especially with the Greeks, but the Russian Orthodox Church always uses the language of the host country, in the spirit of St.s Cyril and Methodius. We leave our ethnicity at the door before we come into Church - and I feel this is how it should always be.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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SvitlanaV2
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Posted
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Originally posted by Chorister:
Britishness is alive and well in flagship Anglican services eg. those for the Royal Family or other special events in Westminster Abbey and other cathedrals. Other Anglican churches are busy shooting themselves in the foot by trying too hard to be just like the Methodists/Baptists/Pentecostals/Choose-your-other-denom.-here group. They have forgotten that unity can best be found in diversity and are watering down what the Anglican church can distinctively offer. In my own humble opinion, of course.
Your point is paradoxical, because the CofE is well-known for its internal diversity! What you seem to be saying is that the CofE should just be known for one thing.
The CofE may become more uniform in the future if the different elements can no longer find the will to stay part of the same institution. My bet is that the CofE will splinter if it's disestablished. But if that happens then the part that still calls itself the CofE will no longer be representative of Britishness in the same way; it'll just be one more church among others.
A much as you may admire cathedral-style worship, do you really want all the 'Methodists/Baptists/Pentecostals/Choose-your-other-denom.' who currently find a home in the CofE to leave? Can the CofE be said to represent the nation if it can only contemplate one kind of worship and theology? Again, if so, that would be quite paradoxical.
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
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Originally posted by Mark Betts:
There were ethnic problems in the Orthodox Church
Who clicked their fingers?
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Russian Orthodox Church always uses the language of the host country, in the spirit of St.s Cyril and Methodius.
Well in the spirit of St Babel the Anglicans have been doing that for a while. Well done for catching up.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
We leave our ethnicity at the door before we come into Church - and I feel this is how it should always be.
How does that work? And do you pick it up again over coffee or do you wait until you get home?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Mark Betts
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
We leave our ethnicity at the door before we come into Church - and I feel this is how it should always be.
How does that work? And do you pick it up again over coffee or do you wait until you get home?
I think you know very well what I mean. Is the Anglican Church like this? Hopefully these days, yes, so where's the problem?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Cod
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Posted
I think that should read: "we leave our ethnics at the door of the church", in Russia at least.
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mdijon
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Posted
Well I leave all my ethics at the door.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
We leave our ethnicity at the door before we come into Church - and I feel this is how it should always be.
Do we also leave our humanity at the door? And if not, how can we have a non-ethnic, nameless, language-free, disembodied humanity? Incarnation implies that everything we are is valued by God and is part of the self we bring to worship.
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mdijon
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Indeed. To be serious for a moment, I don't really know what it means to leave our ethnicity at the door, and don't see that it would be desirable.
I think we are certainly called to leave ethnic division at the door, but ethnicity is an aspect of identity. As such it can be used to sow division, but also celebrated as a gift from God for good.
I don't quite see what leaving it at the door would mean. Does it mean no characteristic ethnic or national dress? No references allowed to ethnicity whilst in the church? I really don't get it.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Ship's Stowaway
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Posted
Speaking as a descendant of several of Her Majesty's former English and Scots subjects resident in the former rebel colonies of America --
And as the attendee of an Anglo-Catholic Episcopal parish on the east coast of said former rebel colonies --
Yes, Anglicanism and British culture are strongly intertwined. For example, my parish has a small chapel dedicated to Our Lady of Walsingham, and organizes pilgrimages to England every year to visit the Anglican shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham. And we have at least one priest who is originally from England.
Now that is pretty extreme -- most Episcopal Church USA (TEC) churches are not Anglo-Catholic -- but the ties to cultural 'Britishness' still exist throughout the TEC.
And the anti-ordination of women and gays American Anglican churches that broke away from the TEC over the last ten years -- mostly evangelical in their outlook -- are very attached to the Thirty-Nine Articles inherited from the Elizabethan era and object to the TEC shelving them as a "historical document."
(No offense, breakaway Anglicans -- have family members who belong to you!)
So all wings of the TEC still bear the imprint of our British parent, the CofE. Which does not prevent us from annoying the heck out of the rest of the Anglican Communion from time to time, as in the TEC's opposition to the Anglican Covenant.
As the offspring of a Jewish-Christian intermarriage, my own deep personal and scholarly attachment to British culture and history and the CofE's roots in them -- is a very restorative and positive and healing feeling ---
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
after decades of exposure to an Israeli Jewish nationalism that has tragically replaced God in many Jewish settings, led to serious harm for interfaith families and Palestinians in Israel and the overseas Jewish communities, and causes horrific communal infighting, as more of us came to question 'Israelolatry' and object to directives from the Israeli government to the overseas Jewish communities to oppose peace initiatives between the Israelis and the Palestinians.
The fusion of Israeli nationalism with Judaism was one reason I finally left Judaism and returned to Christianity.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
The British connection to the American TEC goes far beyond pictures of villagers drinking warm beer and playing cricket among TEC members.
Personally, I've been reading many sermons by British Anglican mystics and theologians from the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries with great pleasure.
Thanks to the internet, I can now get hold of many treatises by 17th through 19th century British divines that were out of print or hideously expensive prior to being stored in internet libraries.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
The American TEC and its breakaway Anglican groups are also home to many Episcopalians from other former British colonies, including new American citizens from Africa.
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Mark Betts
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I think we are certainly called to leave ethnic division at the door...
This is what I really meant.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Ship's Stowaway
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Posted
One more thought -- I don't know if many Anglicans living in the UK are aware of this --
But one reason why Americans intervened on the side of the UK during WWI and WWII was due to the huge British cultural ties among all classes of Americans in that era.
Even Americans with no ethnic or religious ties to the UK at all were given texts in our schools that focused heavily on writings from or inspired by the "Mother Country" until the 1970s.
And the American ruling classes, until the 1970s, were heavily Episcopalian -- sometimes products of Episcopalian boarding schools, and often attendees of TEC churches -- and among the wealthy, frequently married into the Anglo-American aristocracy --
so when the UK needed allies during WWI and WWII, those ties helped tilt Americans away from isolationism towards aligning with the British.
So there have been positive practical consequences to the fusion of British culture and the CofE outside of the UK that go beyond warm beer and cricket matches.
[ 07. June 2012, 10:02: Message edited by: Ship's Stowaway ]
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Mark Betts
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ship's Stowaway:
...But one reason why Americans intervened on the side of the UK during WWI and WWII was due to the huge British cultural ties among all classes of Americans in that era.
Nothing to do with Pearl Harbour then?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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mdijon
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I think we are certainly called to leave ethnic division at the door...
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
This is what I really meant.
I which case I don't really see how the Orthodox church compares favourably with the Anglican church in that regard.
That isn't to say I don't see all sorts of reasons to prefer Orthodox worship and theology to Anglican worship and theology, I do see those, but escaping traps relating to ethnic identity doesn't seem to be an especially strong driver towards Orthodoxy to me.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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