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Source: (consider it) Thread: Single women vicar query?
nouwen
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# 3103

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If this has already been thrashed to death in previous posts, then my apologies. However, as a single woman considering ordination, what do I need to know about the challenges single women vicars face at the current time in the Anglican church??

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Speaking the truth is not the same as being negative.

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Avila
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Not Anglican but as single female clergy I do observe that we get less dinner invites/casseroles left at door than the single male clergy!

We are assumed to be more able to care for ourselves than the males - not sure if that is good or bad!

The main difference is less a gender one that the distinction between those with families and those who are alone in the church house.

People are happy to allow families time together, but the single's need for support and the fact that that is more likely to involve travel to catch up with family and established friends can pass people by.

On the negative, there is no-one to help me change the subject when I come in grumpy and work obsessed from a meeting, or to have dinner on the table for me.

On the positive, I have my own space to retreat into, when I am really tired I don't have to find a second wind for family time but can hibernate. And like singles in all walks of life I can plan my diary without needing to liaise with school holidays, spouse's working hours etc.

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Angloid
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Neither single but female, but from observation of single clergy of both genders I reckon that both the inner temptation (or guilt-driven drive, if you will) and external expectations push you towards overwork. As Avila suggests, congregations will reluctantly accept that a married priest has to commit at least 10% to their family; they expect a single priest to be 100% committed to them. On the other hand, it's easier for a single person to escape the house on their day off and hence get away from phone calls and needy callers; people with families find that more difficult.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
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aig
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Personal security may be an issue. Single clergy should probably invest in a large dog (or dogs). Being a bit lonely has been a problem for single clergy friends - you need to establish networks of people who will cook for you and hang pictures and wash up. You in return need to remember that the church is not that fascinating a subject and keep up some outside interests.

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That's not how we do it here.......

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Oxonian Ecclesiastic
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I don't really like married/partnered clergy friends telling me how I should live as a bachelor clergyman. I don't like dogs, and my church is fascinating, because I am its minister.
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by aig:
You in return need to remember that the church is not that fascinating a subject and keep up some outside interests.

'Hinterland' is what Denis Healey recommended for all politicians, and the same is true for clergy.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by aig:
You in return need to remember that the church is not that fascinating a subject and keep up some outside interests.

'Hinterland' is what Denis Healey recommended for all politicians, and the same is true for clergy.
A report came out a few years ago stating that of all professionsals, the clergy were the least likely to read novels. No time, apparently. I'm biased because I have a personal and academic interest in literature, but I think this is a pity. There are a few novels about church culture and religious issues. There are also church leaders who explore literature as a source of material for small groups. So it's not completely a waste of time!
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Anselmina
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Posters here have made some good points both for and against.

One thing as a single cleric - and I think it would probably apply to either sex? - is just the simple logistic of being only one person in the rectory.

My predecessors had families at home - wives and children - who were more often able to answer phones and doors than one person, who may be out, or at the loo, or out the back of the house etc. Somehow, to a parish a clergy house for one person gives the impression of being wasted or underused. And just the idea of a family being around gives a feeling that the vicar is around, too, even if s/he's not. A phone or house-caller will have considered themselves 'dealt with', in some degree, even if it's only the oldest child or a spouse who's answered to say 'the vicar's not here'. Whereas you can be labelled 'inaccessible' very quickly if a phone or the door-bell isn't answered personally etc.

I've found that older couples (of my parents' age) have sometimes made firm friends with me. But not really in recent years when I moved from being curate to vicar. I think people do want to be friendly and alleviate their cleric's loneliness - some people are very kind and genuinelly caring - but I tend to let those kind of friendships develop more in spite of my not seeking them. When the time comes for us to have to disagree over church matters, I want them to feel free to speak out, without worrying about compromising over personal friendship.

It is sort of true about the provisioning of clergy, too. I've been to church 'do's' where the male clergy have walked away with armfuls of leftovers pressed upon them, and I've been sent home with a polite 'thanks for coming'! I wouldn't mind so much, but the male clergy in my area are Catholic priests and have a daily housekeeper!

However, I can't imagine now having to factor into this mad life, some poor husband. Singleness does mean I can suit my own schedules, which can be a blessing.

Specifically being female? The occasional dirty phone call? Feeling a bit more vulnerable living alone in one of the most publicly accessible addresses in town, where everybody knows you're by yourself at night - including the local perverts?

Still. Wouldn't swap it for the world [Big Grin] !

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Doc Tor
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I am not single, a woman, or a vicar...

Would it be reasonable to suggest to any prospective parish that the vicarage is shared with either a couple (old or young) or other singles at a reduced rent?

You'll undoubtedly benefit from the arrangement, and hopefully so will they. (And the church, from another income stream...)

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Forward the New Republic

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ecumaniac

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You'll undoubtedly benefit from the arrangement, and hopefully so will they. (And the church, from another income stream...)

As someone who would much prefer to live alone (if only I could afford it) this suggestion sounds horrific. I could not imagine having the stresses of ministry and then having to cope with darned housemates at the end of the day!!

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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You'll undoubtedly benefit from the arrangement, and hopefully so will they. (And the church, from another income stream...)

As someone who would much prefer to live alone (if only I could afford it) this suggestion sounds horrific. I could not imagine having the stresses of ministry and then having to cope with darned housemates at the end of the day!!
Well, quite.

However, it does get around several problems, including not having anyone to share the cooking and cleaning, answering the phone and the door, being alone at night in a semi-public building, and even someone to stick the kettle on if you've had a shitty time of it.

The RCs, with their housekeepers, actually have a smarter system than the CofE.

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Forward the New Republic

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BroJames
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Not all places allow parsonage houses to be sub-let. Some places that do allow it will reduce the stipend to take account of income raised.
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Pyx_e

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Not female or single.

How would you describe you arse? Big, pert, well rounded, like 5 squirrels having a fight in a sack?

AtB Pyx_e

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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Chorister

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If you either don't like cooking, or don't have time to cook, it's worth knowing the timetable of every group that meets in your church - for pastoral reasons, it's good to drop in once or twice a term to each, if you can time the visit for when there is a meal planned you can get fed as well! They will consider it an honour to have your presence and you will leave with a full stomach. And your only duty, apart being happy and well-fed is to say Grace. Some priests have a wonderful reputation for this, including their ability to eat the most second helpings. [Biased]

[ 07. June 2012, 13:27: Message edited by: Chorister ]

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Amos

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There are lots of single women in Holy Orders. Some of them are young, some are old, some are straight, some are lesbian, some are divorced or widowed. Some of them have great arses. Some don't.(Thank you, Pyx_e)
The chief challenge they tend to face which is not faced by single men in Holy Orders, is that it is generally assumed that they do not need feeding or housekeeping.

[ 07. June 2012, 13:57: Message edited by: Amos ]

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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anne
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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
If you either don't like cooking, or don't have time to cook, it's worth knowing the timetable of every group that meets in your church - for pastoral reasons, it's good to drop in once or twice a term to each, if you can time the visit for when there is a meal planned you can get fed as well! They will consider it an honour to have your presence and you will leave with a full stomach. And your only duty, apart being happy and well-fed is to say Grace. Some priests have a wonderful reputation for this, including their ability to eat the most second helpings. [Biased]

This may well work for some clergy - or it may simply have the effect of lengthening the work day by 2 hours.

Because the vicar attending a church activity, even at mealtimes, is at work. Reasonably enough (perhaps) people who are there will want to talk about the roof fund/failings of the musical director/PCC agenda/noisiness of children in church/absence of children from church or whatever else is currently worrying them. Or they will share pastoral concerns which require action by the clergy. This is work and, for me, requires energy and attention. Some clergy may find the free lasagne and garlic bread adequate compensation for working to 9 o'clock again.

It's not that I don't need to hear about the concerns and issues that are raised - it's just that I will be better equipped to deal with them tomorrow if I've had a cheese sandwich and a bit of peace and quiet the evening before.

YMMV of course

anne

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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale

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SvitlanaV2
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I don't want to come across as frivolous by mentioning the Vicar of Dibley, but did you know that that character was based on a real person? She published a book a 10 years ago: Joy Carroll, 'Beneath the Cassock: The Real-Life Vicar of Dibley' (2002). Things have probably changed a bit since then, but the book might still be worth reading.
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Amos

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What Anne said. Going to a social event is 'work'. The vicar is in vicar mode: listening, expecting the unexpected, loitering with intent, being a pastor. If the vicar wants to be 'off' for an hour, she should have a bowl of Cheerios at her own kitchen table with the answering machine switched on.

ETA: One of the real challenges for female clergy, single or otherwise, is the constant low buzz of people wanting to ask if you've seen the Vicar of Dibley, and expecting that your life is like that. Thank God for Rev.

[ 07. June 2012, 14:35: Message edited by: Amos ]

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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the giant cheeseburger
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I would suggest that if some kind of church function is to be attended in the evening, show up at work later that morning or finish earlier in the afternoon to keep that day balanced. This works equally well for pastors with children, they can knock off at 3 and spend the afternoon with their family before going to some kind of meeting. As long as the week still adds up to 40 hours it cannot be said there is any kind of slacking off.

Regarding the suggestion of sharing a church-provided house, a better suggestion there would be for the church to rent it out completely and provide the minister with a housing allowance to find more suitably sized accommodation.

Then the house could be used well as a house, the minister could have more appropriate accommodation and commute to work at an office on site at the church each day. Then it could be made known that if they aren't at the church then they aren't "on-duty" and in the event of any pastoral emergencies the person to be contacted is XYZ on 0123....

[ 07. June 2012, 15:31: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

The RCs, with their housekeepers, actually have a smarter system than the CofE.

How many Catholic priests still have housekeepers these days?

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

The RCs, with their housekeepers, actually have a smarter system than the CofE.

How many Catholic priests still have housekeepers these days?
The ones in Lewisham and Greenwich do I think. At least some of them do.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Jengie jon

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You need three things and for some reason married's seem to find it easier to do these.

1) A place you can let off steam with someone totally outside the situation. My father used to drink whisky with the local RC priest. I advised my minister to get a spiritual director on just such grounds. This is a place to vent without consequences. For those married, a spouse won't do, as they will be involved in the same community if only because you are.

2) Develop a pastime that requires you to socialise with people outside the congregation regularly and make it compulsory. Those married with children quite often find the children provide this e.g. parent at junior football. You will need somewhere to regain perspective after the goldfish bowl congregational life.

3) A place where you cannot be contacted where you will sometimes go. If that it a tent down the bottom of the manse garden, that is fine, as long as you do not take mobile phone or laptop.

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

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Zacchaeus
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quote:
Originally posted by anne:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
If you either don't like cooking, or don't have time to cook, it's worth knowing the timetable of every group that meets in your church - for pastoral reasons, it's good to drop in once or twice a term to each, if you can time the visit for when there is a meal planned you can get fed as well! They will consider it an honour to have your presence and you will leave with a full stomach. And your only duty, apart being happy and well-fed is to say Grace. Some priests have a wonderful reputation for this, including their ability to eat the most second helpings. [Biased]

This may well work for some clergy - or it may simply have the effect of lengthening the work day by 2 hours.

Because the vicar attending a church activity, even at mealtimes, is at work. Reasonably enough (perhaps) people who are there will want to talk about the roof fund/failings of the musical director/PCC agenda/noisiness of children in church/absence of children from church or whatever else is currently worrying them. Or they will share pastoral concerns which require action by the clergy. This is work and, for me, requires energy and attention. Some clergy may find the free lasagne and garlic bread adequate compensation for working to 9 o'clock again.

It's not that I don't need to hear about the concerns and issues that are raised - it's just that I will be better equipped to deal with them tomorrow if I've had a cheese sandwich and a bit of peace and quiet the evening before.

YMMV of course

anne

Most clergy I know work several evenings a week anyway - so if you can get fed as well..
But serioulsy clergy friends have told me, that in their parishes, this works only if you don't mind living on sandwiches and sausage rolls

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The Scrumpmeister
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And quiche!

It has almost attained to canonical status.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Angloid
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Real vicars don't eat quiche.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Zacchaeus
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Real vicars don't eat quiche.

On the other hand every vicar I have know eats chocolate.
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Chorister

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Except for the vicar I know who, when offered chocolate, replied, 'No thanks, I'm trying to slim'.

Our single curate had a holiday cottage in the wilds of Cornwall, which she used as a bolt hole. They key was that nobody knew the exact whereabouts of this cottage, or the telephone number - if it had one - so free time really was free time.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Sir Pellinore
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I think any single cleric would need to make sure they had time to dedicate to their own ongoing spiritual growth and personal life as well as being involved with their parish and parishioners.

You are, after all, serving Christ rather than the cumulative needs (assumed or real) of Mrs Bodger; Beryl Smythe; Little Johnny Appleseed etc.

You are "part of them" and yet "someone apart": like Christ. Maybe his life could provide the clues?

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Well...

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ecumaniac

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# 376

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
However, it does get around several problems, including not having anyone to share the cooking and cleaning, answering the phone and the door, being alone at night in a semi-public building, and even someone to stick the kettle on if you've had a shitty time of it.

The RCs, with their housekeepers, actually have a smarter system than the CofE.

The difference being that the RC housekeepers were also employees of the parish, so they could be reasonably expected to do the grunt work of answering doors/making pastoral cups of tea etc.

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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine

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LutheranChik
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Our church is taking on a single pastoral intern -- someone doing her one-year stint with a congregation, under a pastor's supervision, before her final year in seminary. Our pastor and his wife live in their own home several miles away, and the intern is going to be living alone in the parsonage right next to our church. So we've been having some of the same discussions at our place.

Security has been mentioned as a concern at our place as well. We're out in Nowheresville, with a local culture that includes a certain number of potentially problematic people -- drifters, backwoods drug dealers, white supremacists, generic rednecks with short tempers and guns, members of the reality-challenged community (who may also be members of the other groups) etc. I'm not sure if there are plans to add some security devices to the parsonage, like motion detectors or burglar alarms or better outdoor lighting, but it's an issue you might want to explore in any parish you find yourself.

Another issue with single clergy of either gender is the discomfort some laypeople feel at the thought of their pastor/priest dating. It's ridiculous -- they're the same people who think nothing of clergy and spouses with multiple children -- but something about the thought of a single clergyperson having sexual/relational desires, even if they and a potential mate remain as chaste as the driven snow during the dating phase, makes their heads explode. So if you have a relationship or anticipate being in one, it's probably a good idea to be discreet with your significant other unless/until exclusive commitment/imminent marriage is a done deal.

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Simul iustus et peccator
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Sir Pellinore
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# 12163

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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
...

Another issue with single clergy of either gender is the discomfort some laypeople feel at the thought of their pastor/priest dating. It's ridiculous -- they're the same people who think nothing of clergy and spouses with multiple children -- but something about the thought of a single clergyperson having sexual/relational desires, even if they and a potential mate remain as chaste as the driven snow during the dating phase, makes their heads explode. So if you have a relationship or anticipate being in one, it's probably a good idea to be discreet with your significant other unless/until exclusive commitment/imminent marriage is a done deal.

Excellent point, LutheranChik. [Big Grin]

I don't know why it is, but many what I term "priest's handbags" (always almost physically attached to him/her) of both sexes seem incredibly possessive of "their" cleric and often have designs of their own on him/her, however ridiculous and unsuitable those designs may be. They seem to think they have the right of first refusal and are extremely jealous of anyone else getting close to him/her.

As a male heterosexual, if I were young and single again and perchance the girl of my dreams was a cleric and also not same sex attracted, I would be very, very careful about pursuing any interest in her, as she would often be as surrounded by as many psychological thorn bushes as the Sleeping Beauty was by real ones. Nothing could be a better romance killer and kill it some definitely would.

I think many parishioners everywhere need to learn their priest is also human, with normal human needs for love and physical affection which go beyond normal parish duties. They need to allow him/her to fulfil those unless a member of a religious order or otherwise bound to celibacy.

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Well...

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
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quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
...
Regarding the suggestion of sharing a church-provided house, a better suggestion there would be for the church to rent it out completely and provide the minister with a housing allowance to find more suitably sized accommodation.

Then the house could be used well as a house, the minister could have more appropriate accommodation and commute to work at an office on site at the church each day. Then it could be made known that if they aren't at the church then they aren't "on-duty" and in the event of any pastoral emergencies the person to be contacted is XYZ on 0123....

Most churches seem to take the view that the accommodation that they have is the accommodation that you take if you accept the post. And if you’ve got an issue with it, then it may be a sign that it’s not quite the right the role for you!

As an idea, it’s lovely, but maybe not entirely practical for several reasons:

Renting in some parts of the country is hideously expensive. The “profit” from renting out the manse would have to cover the costs of renting something else, plus all the related costs. This isn’t a given and most churches wouldn’t be able to cover any shortfall.

Renting out accommodation is a PITA. (I have experiences of this I can share. But I like the Purg hosts so I won’t). Why create work for yourself when you don’t have to.

And lastly, personal experience suggests that some churches wouldn’t recognise a realistic housing allowance if they saw one so the minister would end up having to make up the difference. Deeply unfair.

TBH, if I was a single member of the clergy, I would be well miffed if the church assumed that their usual manse was fine for married clergy but attempted to fob me off with something smaller purely because I was single. (The thing about the accommodation available being the accommodation you take when you accept the job cuts both ways. And there's a world of assumptions behind the idea that single people need less space that may not be true).

Tubbs

[ 08. June 2012, 12:08: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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cliffdweller
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Good points. Just to clarify, though, the suggestion of renting out came after the suggestion that the single vicar be supplied with roommates to keep him/her company in the manse. A truly horrible idea IMHO-- just short of suggesting "hey, a spouse is so helpful for clergy. But don't worry-- we'll pick one out for you".

[ 08. June 2012, 14:29: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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Tubbs

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Good points. Just to clarify, though, the suggestion of renting out came after the suggestion that the single vicar be supplied with roommates to keep him/her company in the manse. A truly horrible idea IMHO-- just short of suggesting "hey, a spouse is so helpful for clergy. But don't worry-- we'll pick one out for you".

Which is nice. [Big Grin] [Biased] [ETA: Although I thought that the suggestion was just that the minister might want to think about renting the spare room out. Not the congregation would find them the lodger [Eek!] ]

There isn't going to be a one size fits all solution. You just have to make these things up as you go along, depending on the situation you're in and what you feel your needs are. So, if you feel a lodger would be helpful or fancy getting a dog for company, then go for it. And if you don't ... [Big Grin]


Tubbs

[ 08. June 2012, 15:15: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Good points. Just to clarify, though, the suggestion of renting out came after the suggestion that the single vicar be supplied with roommates to keep him/her company in the manse. A truly horrible idea IMHO-- just short of suggesting "hey, a spouse is so helpful for clergy. But don't worry-- we'll pick one out for you".

That's so far from my suggestion as to be unrecognisable... [Roll Eyes]

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cliffdweller
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Well, here's the original suggestion, so let the reader decide:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I am not single, a woman, or a vicar...

Would it be reasonable to suggest to any prospective parish that the vicarage is shared with either a couple (old or young) or other singles at a reduced rent?

You'll undoubtedly benefit from the arrangement, and hopefully so will they. (And the church, from another income stream...)

Perhaps it's my own warped experiences with congregational "helpful" suggestions re: how one orders ones domestic life that cause me to read it that way...

At the very least, given the responses, the modifier "undoubtedly" was misguided.
[code]

[ 12. June 2012, 02:09: Message edited by: John Holding ]

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cliffdweller
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sorry... messed up the html and now time to fix. [done - JH]

[ 12. June 2012, 02:10: Message edited by: John Holding ]

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Horatio Harumph
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someone suggested 'house sharing' as a way of being able to share the cooking/cleaning/door and phone answering etc ...

however it doesn't work that way ...

even IF there was two people who agreed to share a manse I would expect it to be very clearly defined what was expected of the people.

I cant imagine the 'other' person, the non church staff member would be all that keen on being relegated to tea maker/door answerer etc for the 'vicar' they 'house shared' with.

Personally, I share a house with an anglican church worker.
Someone who manages an immensely busy schedule, working for an immensely busy, fairly large and thriving christian community.

However, we have a kind of unspoken way of working.

I dont answer the house phone. Ever. Thats the 'house' phone, and the one that gets advertised everywhere. IF on the odd occasion, maybe twice in the 3 years I've lived here, someone rings for me or leave me a message my housemate passes it on to me. I would become an unpaid and very busy secretary if I was to answer the phone every time it rang.
I also cant cope with people, on the few times I have answered it, who when hearing she is not home, decide I need to know everything about them/OR who are angry with me, for not knowing everything and anything to do with church business (I had someone very angrily rant at me once because they had rung to enquire about the time of a meeting that they had arranged with said housemate - i didnt even know it was happening let alone when. Person calling wasnt happy).
If people want me, they have my mobile.

I also dont answer the door when I'm home, unless I am expecting someone.

I live with the fact that our house is 'open', and so that means I can sometimes come home from a long and stressful day to find the front room full of teenagers, or church people having a meeting in the kitchen, or not being able to move for people who have come by for some occasion or another.

Its a random life, that I enjoy, but not everyone would.

And 'house sharing' doesnt make it 'easier' for the said church staff member OR the other person.

Sorry Ive waffled on x

[ 08. June 2012, 21:22: Message edited by: Horatio Harumph ]

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Amazing Grace

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Well, IMO that's useful as a reality check against the suggestion that the single cleric be provided with housemates in the manse.

Basically if you answer the phone or door there you're essentially "working" because you are dealing with parishioner's needs. Not something that the average housemate might be up for!

Renting out the manse would probably have tax implications, and then a housing allowance should ideally be provided to the incumbent ... which could be financially untenable.

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Oscar the Grouch

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In my previous post, a neighbouring colleague was a single woman vicar, and we developed a good friendship over some years. Her specific issues were:

a) The parishes (two of them) tended to regard her as always "on call" in a way that they wouldn't have done with a married clergy (of either gender). Phone calls or callers late in the evening were commonplace, especially to begin with, as they thought that as she was on her own, she wouldn't mind being disturbed so late.

The same kind of issue applied to days off. She quickly learned that on her days off, she left the vicarage completely.

b) Security was an issue. Vicarages get random callers - often of the most dubious kind. A single woman is - sadly - more vulnerable and more likely to be targeted than a single man. She had to make sure that the Diocesan property department did a thorough security audit on the vicarage before she moved in. Things like proper external lighting over the front door and working spyholes and chains on the door were essential, as well as ensuring that any other security loopholes around the property were identified and rectified. (Some vicarages have well-known access points for burglars.)

One issue she never managed to get resolved to her satisfaction was that the vicarage was round the back of one of the churches and didn't have any nearby neighbours. It also had a pathway to the front door that was bounded by bushes on both sides and tended to be dark in the evenings.

It's worthwhile bearing these kinds of things in mind when considering potential vicarages or curate's houses. "How safe will I feel coming back to this place on a dark winter's evening after visiting someone?"

c) Opportunities for a social life can be limited, unless you work really hard to create the space. And that especially applies if you're considering a romantic attachment. Space will not appear in your diary for these things - you have to move heaven and earth to make the space.

I've just had a long talk with another young, single female clergy person. She admitted that at the moment she gets almost zero opportunities for social interactions with people of her own age. We didn't get on to discuss dating, but the answer would have been the same.

d) The temptation to overwork is always there. This is not unique to women single clergy but to ALL single clergy. There is no-one there to tell you to stop. So, if you are not careful, you're still writing a sermon at 2:00am or going out on pastoral visits every evening of the week. In order to remain healthy and avoid burnout, a single clergy person has to be extra disciplined about preserving their "down" time. My friend admitted that there were many days (far too many) when she was still working on the computer at midnight. She did get better, but it was always a danger.

The good news, however is that both my friend and the person I have just talked to wouldn't have changed things for the world. They love what they are doing and - in the good times - enjoy the freedom that they have.

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Doc Tor
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Fair enough. I shared a house for over a year with a UCCF worker who covered northern England. It worked remarkably well - I kept the place running and filled the fridge, and provided tea and sympathy when it was required. There were meeting at the house and phone calls and stuff, and I never felt used or harassed - useful and helpful, in fact.

If you think that the cons outweigh the pros then certainly don't do it. But we were discussing the cons, and having someone else live in the house is one way to solve them. YMMV.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
In my previous post, a neighbouring colleague was a single woman vicar, and we developed a good friendship over some years. Her specific issues were:

a) The parishes (two of them) tended to regard her as always "on call" in a way that they wouldn't have done with a married clergy (of either gender). Phone calls or callers late in the evening were commonplace, especially to begin with, as they thought that as she was on her own, she wouldn't mind being disturbed so late.

I suspect us married clergy are not getting as much of a break here as she may have assumed.

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LutheranChik
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Some more advice for a friend of mine who's been in your shoes:

If you are counseling a member of the opposite sex, make sure there's another person present in the parsonage.

Find a colleague in a different church who's in a similar situatation, just for some affirmation. (Preferably someone in your local ministerial association, to provide you with some moral support.)

Make friends with the matriarchs of the church. They can be your best allies.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Some more advice for a friend of mine who's been in your shoes:

If you are counseling a member of the opposite sex, make sure there's another person present in the parsonage.

Male or female, married or single, you shouldn't engage in counseling in the parsonage. Period. That needs to be done in the church offices, preferably with a church secretary (do those even exist anymore) right outside the door. Seriously.

As church staffs get smaller and smaller, that gets harder and harder to achieve of course.

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Gramps49
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Counseling at the mense/parsonage? Should not happen. Only at the church office. Still, no matter what gender, it would be good to have someone in the building if at all possible.

Regarding developing a long term relationship,if it is in the cards: you will be held to a higher standard, like it or not. Ideally, if it happens, it should be from outside the congregation, but if it is from within the congregation keep it above board. There will be enough gossiping as it is ("did you hear about the vicar and x..."}

Do develop outside interests.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Counseling at the mense/parsonage? Should not happen. Only at the church office. Still, no matter what gender, it would be good to have someone in the building if at all possible.

Another pond difference. Most English (at least C of E) churches, unless extremely fortunate and financially prosperous, don't have a 'church office' as such, other than a corner of the vestry with piles of mouldering hymnbooks and tea urns etc, which is hardly an appropriate environment for counselling or pastoral care. In any case, there is no more likelihood of another person being on the premises than there would be in the vicarage; in fact I would have thought the general creepiness of the setting was more likely to lead to accusations of abuse (in either direction) than a comfortable room in a domestic setting.

It's a difficult problem and I don't know how single clergy overcome it. Or married ones for that matter, since there is no guarantee that the partner will be around - they will often be at work. Common sense is a large part of it of course. I regularly see people for spiritual direction at home when my wife is out, but they are people whom I know and can hopefully trust. Deranged strangers are a different matter entirely.

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Avila
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And as the church is not likely to be open except for regular events home is a more 'interruptable' space, from parcel delivery to passing church folk.

My manse is an overgrown bungalow, which means that 2 of the bedrooms are on the ground floor, this allowed me to use one of the spares for a prayer room come pastorsal meeting room. the window faces the road so one way of being visibly accountable.

In reality as I am in a rural area and most people are not near the manse I am more likely to be at their house than mine. That creates a different set of questions.

As I went into college a single woman priest offered her techniques -
When making a visit that concerned about in any way have someone set to call your mobile at a set time to check you are ok afterwards.

Have a desk diary that is up to date with where you are going and someone with access to it in case of emergency - they can track where you have been.

I have never yet felt the need for the first tip but do on monday mornings send an email to our circuit administrator that summarises where I intend to be in a general sense over the week ahead.

My concern is not so much individual visits but that I could fall down the stairs or have a car accident and it being days before I am noticed to be missing, because if I miss a coffee morning people have no way to check if something more urgent came up or whether I missed 3 events in a row in different churches etc.

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LutheranChik
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More advice: Nip "handsy" parishoners in the bud -- the ones who want to put an arm on your shoulder or otherwise act in a patronizing way.

Also nip in the bud any nothing that you are a substitute Sunday School teacher, ladies' luncheon hostess or any other female helper.

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Chorister

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Some priests let it be known that they will always be in the church on a Wednesday (or other named day of the week) and that all personal visits are to be made then and there. This avoids being called upon at all times of the day and night. If the clergy person is worried about being in the church on their own on that day, other activities / groups can be arranged to be in another part of the church building at the same time, so that there is company.

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Amos

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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Counseling at the mense/parsonage? Should not happen. Only at the church office. Still, no matter what gender, it would be good to have someone in the building if at all possible.

'Mense'= manse. I hope. The menses of single women vicars would be another thread altogether.

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