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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Single women vicar query?
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Some priests let it be known that they will always be in the church on a Wednesday (or other named day of the week) and that all personal visits are to be made then and there. This avoids being called upon at all times of the day and night.
Some clergy and their spouses do want to put a very definite boundary line between work and personal life in that way, so maybe it can work well if the parish take it on board and stick to the 'rules'. But that's a very big 'if'.
Our old rector used to have Thursday evenings in the church vestry for meeting people with queries. But you can be sure he was also very well visited at the rectory. After all, no-one was going to go out of their way to formally go to a Thursday evening session, if they just wanted to pop round with a sentence or two - a short message - happened to be passing, or to get a key etc.
Personally, I'm quite content with the rectory being available and see it as more or less part of the job. It's trying to get the balance between the rectory being my home, but not my house, but a parish resource. But I don't have a spouse or children to take into account; and when my mother visits, or friends - they don't answer the phone and only answer the door if they want to.
I love the big house, too. I can have friends and relatives over to stay with me, and as they're all spread across the British Isles, it's a great thing. Otherwise, I'd never see them at all, except when I go to them. I can even keep a room 'permanently' for my mother, so it's like her second home - which is also good for me.
I find it convenient, too, as my study is also the parish office, to have meetings in the larger rooms of the house. And because there is a study, a living room, and a kitchen/living room, again, my friends and Mum have a personal space to be private in, when people come to the door and I have to bring them into the rectory, or want to have a meeting at the rectory.
Sure, there are downsides and security issues. But the trick is to learn how to live with the negatives, in a way that works for you. Mind you, it's taken a few years for me to get to this stage of accepting the demands of living in a clergy house, so it needs time and working at.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
More advice: Nip "handsy" parishoners in the bud -- the ones who want to put an arm on your shoulder or otherwise act in a patronizing way.
Hence the "arse" question. (shame on you who thought I was just being smutty)
My observation of single women clergy is that they get their arse touched more than me. Sad face.
And as LC says, deal with it quickly or suffer it for the rest of your life. Some men in church have some very reactionary ideas about arses. HEAL THEM sister, heal them. Smite them even.
AtB, Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Actually, Anselmina, any single woman intending to be a cleric would do well to note your advice: it comes from exactly the right source. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Advice from many others, including me, is purely hypothetical and probably well worth ignoring.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Actually, Anselmina, any single woman intending to be a cleric would do well to note your advice: it comes from exactly the right source.
Advice from many others, including me, is purely hypothetical and probably well worth ignoring.
However, you could say that the rest of us, being on the receiving end of what the clergy do in their working lives, have something worth contributing.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
nope
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Actually, Anselmina, any single woman intending to be a cleric would do well to note your advice: it comes from exactly the right source.
Advice from many others, including me, is purely hypothetical and probably well worth ignoring.
However, you could say that the rest of us, being on the receiving end of what the clergy do in their working lives, have something worth contributing.
Being is different from seeing.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Actually, Anselmina, any single woman intending to be a cleric would do well to note your advice: it comes from exactly the right source.
Advice from many others, including me, is purely hypothetical and probably well worth ignoring.
However, you could say that the rest of us, being on the receiving end of what the clergy do in their working lives, have something worth contributing.
Sir Pellinore - you're a gent, as always - and are being very gracious; your posts are always very useful and extremely readable.
It is always very worthwhile, on the Ship, to have feedback and comment on clerical matters of all sorts - including the impact of their clergy's lifestyle - from anyone insightful, empathetic and objective.
Just recently, IRL, the best support I've been receiving about some personal dynamics of clergy living has been from a lay worker who was supposed to be receiving some form of training from me.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
It's also helpful for us ordinary laity to say how it looks to us - not least so that if we've got it wrong, we can be corrected!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
It's also helpful for us ordinary laity to say how it looks to us - not least so that if we've got it wrong, we can be corrected!
And sometimes we can be too close to see things for ourselves...
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I should say that it's thanks to the welcoming warmheartedness of a single woman minister (Methodist) that my mother returned to church life and service, having spent many years feeling unwanted by the Pentecostal denomination of her youth. I was already a Methodist myself, but if it hadn't been for the encouragement of this minister, whose congregation eventually became my home as well, maybe things would have turned out differently for me.
I've read that Anglican women clergy sometimes have a more masculine edge to them than Methodist women clergy, but my experience in the Methodist context is that women ministers make for greater approachability, which is important for a certain kind of female layperson. The minister I mentioned above used to give my mother big hugs, and my mother really appreciated them at that stage in her life. I can't imagine a male minister feeling quite so able to respond to a middle aged woman in this way.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I apologize for the typo. I did mean manse.
While it may not be customary for a church office in England, I would think it would be possible to find some way of providing for a "confessional" space within the church proper. If not, how about renting a small office space in town?
At my first call the church office was at the parsonage. Not at all ideal. But as my family expanded and grew, it became very important for my wife that the office be separated from our home.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I've read that Anglican women clergy sometimes have a more masculine edge to them than Methodist women clergy
Where on earth did you read that?
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
In your diary.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif) That's what I was afraid of.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
It's the cigars we smoke, our deep manly voices, and the five-hour shadow - dead giveaway.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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nouwen
Shipmate
# 3103
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
After all, no-one was going to go out of their way to formally go to a Thursday evening session, if they just wanted to pop round with a sentence or two - a short message - happened to be passing, or to get a key etc.
Sure, there are downsides and security issues. But the trick is to learn how to live with the negatives, in a way that works for you. Mind you, it's taken a few years for me to get to this stage of accepting the demands of living in a clergy house, so it needs time and working at.
Good advice thank you. However, can I ask a really dense and perhaps two rather simplistic questions?
Many of the posts have talked about the sense of vicars having to be 'on call', however what is wrong with simply saying 'no' I am not open for contact now and teaching people about boaundaries.
Also, why is a vicarage actually deemed neccessary to the role of a parish priest?
Finally, and I know I said I had two questions, but I've just had a second wind ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) , are the issues of safety, boundaries in role etc the same in chaplaincy?
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Speaking the truth is not the same as being negative.
Posts: 477 | From: Oxford | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nouwen:
Many of the posts have talked about the sense of vicars having to be 'on call', however what is wrong with simply saying 'no' I am not open for contact now and teaching people about boaundaries.
Also, why is a vicarage actually deemed neccessary to the role of a parish priest?
Finally, and I know I said I had two questions, but I've just had a second wind , are the issues of safety, boundaries in role etc the same in chaplaincy?
I can only give a personal answer to these questions. It varies so much according to the incumbent.
I'm not really sure how a parish minister can tell their parish they're not open for 'contact' beyond simply asking people to respect their day off as much as possible. Is that what you mean? Generally, ime, people are fairly good at recognizing boundaries in the sense of keeping extraordinary contact to emergency situations. Most people won't phone or call to the rectory after ten at night, or before nine in the morning - unless it's urgent.
I guess, it's just the nature of the work. You are being made available - through a house and stipend - to the parish. To a reasonable extent, parishioners ought to know how to reach you, or at least leave messages any time; different clergy have different ways of managing that. Answerphones, outside parish offices (if they're lucky!), departmentalizing parts of the job.
But most powerful of all is what the parishioners learn themselves about their cleric's habits. ie, whether they're welcome at the vicarage, whether they get the minister on the phone more often than the answerphone or vice versa etc.
Safety is another issue. I suppose one could insist on the parish installing alarm systems. In terms of being visited, one establishes one's own rules, I guess. Organizing the study so your chair is the one next to the door, never admitting complete strangers; or at least until you've asssured yourself they're legitimate.
So it's how you live. Hence the usefulness of the house, because that is also one of your places of work, as well as your home. Or at least I should say it's how it is for me. It's obviously not the only way to do it - it's custom. But it also reflects, I think, the integral link a parish priest has with his/her parish. I personally would like to think that people feel comfortable and welcome to visit me at 'home' - even if that means there are times when it's not convenient for me and I grumble a bit!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Many of the posts have talked about the sense of vicars having to be 'on call', however what is wrong with simply saying 'no' I am not open for contact now and teaching people about boaundaries.
Exactly, the Force is strong in you.
quote:
Also, why is a vicarage actually deemed neccessary to the role of a parish priest?
Because the role is incarnational, not so that everyone can troop in and out of your home.
quote:
are the issues of safety, boundaries in role etc the same in chaplaincy?
Chaplaincy is for pussies and Jesus hates pussies.
AtB, Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I've read that Anglican women clergy sometimes have a more masculine edge to them than Methodist women clergy
Where on earth did you read that?
Actually, the article I was thinking of is about Methodists: Many Robbins, Leslie J. Francis et al, 'The Personality Characteristics of Methodist Ministers: Feminine Men and Masculine Women?' Jnl for the Scientific Study of Religion, 40: 1, 2001. It also referenced other studies that suggested that for scores on the 'neuroticism scale', 'female Anglican clergy recorded a mean score closer to the population norm for men than for women.' Most studies focus on Anglicans, and seem to imply that 'the ordained ministry has remained predoinantly a male preserve and that women who wish to break into ordained ministry must themselves espouse certain masculine personality characteristics.'
There's also another relevant article by the same people: 'Psychological Type Profile of Methodist Circuit Ministers in Britain: Similarities to and Differences from Anglican Clergy, Jnl of Empirical Theology, 23, 2010.
[ 11. June 2012, 18:53: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It also referenced other studies that suggested that for scores on the 'neuroticism scale', 'female Anglican clergy recorded a mean score closer to the population norm for men than for women.'
{tangent alert}
Why should a neuroticism scale show separate population norms for men and women?
I am very curious about the nature of the criteria that lead to a diagnosis of neuroticism.
{/tangent alert}
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It also referenced other studies that suggested that for scores on the 'neuroticism scale', 'female Anglican clergy recorded a mean score closer to the population norm for men than for women.'
{tangent alert}
Why should a neuroticism scale show separate population norms for men and women?
I am very curious about the nature of the criteria that lead to a diagnosis of neuroticism.
{/tangent alert}
Moo
The criteria would be found in the DSM IV (Diagnostic & Statistical Manual)-- I don't have the latest edition, but it's about to be completely revamped/ revised anyway. Part of the "statistical" part of the DSM is providing a demographic profile of various types of conditions ("neuroticism" would be a very, very broad category with dozens of conditions within that branch of the diagnostic tree). It can be helpful in making a diagnosis to know the frequency of the condition among various age, gender, and other groupings (of course, it could also mislead you). Lots of research goes into making those profiles, although obviously they're prone to error as well. The criteria (the "diagnostic" part of DSM) would vary according to the specific condition being considered-- the DSM works like a decision tree.
[ 11. June 2012, 22:45: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It also referenced other studies that suggested that for scores on the 'neuroticism scale', 'female Anglican clergy recorded a mean score closer to the population norm for men than for women.'
{tangent alert}
Why should a neuroticism scale show separate population norms for men and women?
I am very curious about the nature of the criteria that lead to a diagnosis of neuroticism.
{/tangent alert}
Moo
I should say that I'm not a specialist on personality types, but I'm attracted to any texts that illuminate the development of church culture.
Eysenck and Eysenck have apparently devised a 'dimensional model of personality'. According to the article about 'Methodist Ministers', their model involves three interconnected categories: extraversion, neuroticism and pychoticism.
So, to focus on neuroticism, high scores on the neuroticism scale indicate individuals who are 'anxious, worriers, moody and often depressed. They tend to experience strong emotional reactions that are out of proportion to the situation. They tend to overreact. The opposite of neuroticism is stable personality.' According to this model, 'there are some well-established gender differences in personality' that are consistent accross cultures. Women record higher scores on neuroticism and also on extraversion. (Men record higher scores on psychoticism.)
Studies of the clergy seem to indicate noticeable differences from the wider population. One difference is that Anglican male clergy record a a rate of psychoticism closer to women than to men, while female clergy record a neuroticism score closer to men than to women. Actually, this particular article states that Anglican clergy and Methodist clergy are fairly similar in this respect. There is the initial guess that Methodist women clergy may be less 'masculine' by virtue of having had a longer history in the ministry, but the rest of the article doesn't pursue this line of thought.
Both Methodist and Anglican female clergy score higher on extraversion than male clergy and men in general, which some would say makes them better quipped for the social aspect of ministry. The other article, though, states that Anglican + Methodist clergy on the whole 'revealed preferences for introversion rather than extraversion', although this is more pronounced for the men.
There may well be differences with American clergy preferences, though. I read that American clergy are more likely to favour extraversion, but that wasn't in an academic source. Also, there are the denominational differences to consider.
I can imagine that some people would find this kind of academic research problematic, if they take the ideological position that there are no psychological differences between men and women. You'll have to take that up with the sources, since I'm totally unqualified to debate that subject!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
This is not science, SV2. Or rather, it's Bad Science. Pseudo-science. You know, like phrenology. Minute sample size, non-existent controls, self-definition of terms, which are in any case fuzzy to begin with.
Right. Back to your regularly scheduled programme.
Good luck, Nouwen. You'll be starting to see some of the difficulties you're up against.
[ 12. June 2012, 08:45: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Well, Svetlana's recent posts are interesting, so I'm being slightly tongue in cheek when I say will the time ever come when we can just accept people as individuals of varying parameters, without having to revert to particular characteristics as somehow more or less normal for that sex or human category?
'She makes a good chairman because she's more like a man.'
'He makes a good listener because he's more like a woman.'
Who cares whether the tomato is a fruit or a vegetable so long as it does its job of feeding hungry people?
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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