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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Homeschooling pros and cons.
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
I'm curious as to what people think the pros and cons of homeschooling are (particularly in the UK - I think its a slightly different issue in the USA, and more common?)
I always used to think we would homeschool for primary but I'm nearly 100% sure we will use the local primary school. However I can still see pros and cons to both....
Curious to know shippies views!
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
Depends on your children and your expertise. I had children with special educational needs, which I couldn't meet at home.
Also mine wouldn't do things for me that they would for others,so it was better all round to split the roles of educator and nose wiper.
AIUI if you homeschool you have to proove you are doing it properly though I don't know how it works in practice.
The children don't get pushed into the sausage machine, of being taught to pass exams, rather than taught to learn how to learn.
The children don't get to meet and socialise with lots of kids. OTOH they do not risk meeting children with problems or who are disruptive, though this may be more of an issue at secondary level.
I have made some liflong friends at the school gate.
They are not prepared for the shock of secondary education.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
...AIUI if you homeschool you have to proove you are doing it properly though I don't know how it works in practice.
You don't have to prove anything. The duty to ensure that a child is educated in acordance with age aptitude and ability, falls on the parents and they can choose to fulfil that duty by sending a child to school or 'otherwise'. A local education authority can enquire about any child not attending school to ascertain whether or not they are being home-educated but cannot question the education provided unless there are reasons to suspect that the parents are not fulfilling their duty.
From the Home Education Guidelines for Local Authorities: quote:
2.15 As outlined above, local authorities have general duties to make arrangements to safeguard and promote the welfare of children (section 175 Education Act 2002 in relation to their functions as a local authority and for other functions in sections 10 and 11 of the Children Act 2004).
These powers allow local authorities to insist on seeing children in order to enquire about their welfare where there are grounds for concern (sections 17 and 47 of the Children Act 1989). However, such powers do not bestow on local authorities the ability to see and question children subject to elective home education in order to establish whether they are receiving a suitable education
quote:
The children don't get pushed into the sausage machine, of being taught to pass exams, rather than taught to learn how to learn.
Yes, the emphasis is on learning how to learn however home-educated children can enter for exams as private candidates. Also, FE colleges have a discretion to admit underage students for any course they consider suitable and some teenagers combine college courses with home-based learning.
quote:
The children don't get to meet and socialise with lots of kids. OTOH they do not risk meeting children with problems or who are disruptive, though this may be more of an issue at secondary level.
They can meet and socialise with as many other kids as they want. There are a number of networks offering support and social contact for home-educating families. Education Otherwise has been around for 35 years, growing from a small group of families to many thousands.
I'm an EO veteran and have many fond memories of national gatherings, including the 25 year reunion when a survey of our grown-up children showed that steady jobs and stable relationships were the outcome of their unconventional education.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
I'm an EO veteran and have many fond memories of national gatherings, including the 25 year reunion when a survey of our grown-up children showed that steady jobs and stable relationships were the outcome of their unconventional education.
Is it not likely to be a result of having parents who were interested and involved in their upbringing and education, as well as having (at a guess) intelligent and well educated parents? I would hazard a guess that most of the kids would have had pretty much the same outcome if their parents had supported them in mainstream education.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I hope Scot runs across this thread. He and Thumbprint at one point had been homeschooling their kids. (He has mentioned it on the Ship.) I don't know if they still are; the children would be quite a bit older from when I first met them. Sweet kids! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
I'm an EO veteran and have many fond memories of national gatherings, including the 25 year reunion when a survey of our grown-up children showed that steady jobs and stable relationships were the outcome of their unconventional education.
Is it not likely to be a result of having parents who were interested and involved in their upbringing and education, as well as having (at a guess) intelligent and well educated parents? I would hazard a guess that most of the kids would have had pretty much the same outcome if their parents had supported them in mainstream education.
I don't think the outcome would have been the same in mainstream education because the children would not have had the same choices and opportunities for self-directed learning. The great value of home education is that children have time and freedom. They don't have to be ruled by timetables, spending an hour on one subject and then having to move to another. From my experience they also develop very good social skills. I recall an anti-consumerist ethos amongst the children and teenagers. They were kind to each other.
Professor Roland Meighan was a member of EO and conducted research into how home education worked. In summary his finding were that children learn successfully when they have three things: conversation, interested and supportive adults, and 'abundance of affection'. Conversation is the medium of learning and it isn't possible in most classroms.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I'm not happy with the sweeping generalisations from 'justlooking' and would tend to concur with 'arethosemyfeet' bout it depending largely on family support - schools often do encourage cooperative learning these days; I know several families who have tried to homeschool but it hasn't worked terribly well so they put their children into state education at varying stages along the way. So you really can't generalise, although I'm very happy for those who find it does work brilliantly, as I am for those who find conventional education works brilliantly (myself included).
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
You can generalise when you're speaking from several years' personal experience of home education and active involvement with the network. People educate their children outside the school system for all kinds of reasons but from my experience very many simply don't like the school system. I've always thought that our school system diminishes children. It's a system based on getting cost-effective returns, not on what's best for children.
I also have wide experience of school education and so can compare school-educated children with home-educated. Whatever schools might try to do to encourage self-directed learning there's no comparison with the genuine freedom of home education. One of the aims of EO is 'to establish the primary right of children to have full consideration given to their wishes and feelings about their education;'. Schools simply can't do this.
Many people feel uneasy about home education, threatened even, and in the early days of EO some families were subject to pressure from neighbours, other family members and sometimes from education authority personnel. EO had a legal group to provide support and advice and there were a few test cases. The legal situation is now established clearly and is similar to that of the US which recognises home education as a valid option and as a right.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
Even more so than all the above factors is the child himself. You cannot make a blanket statement about the good/bad of homeschooling, as it will be a different experience for each child. Some children will thrive no matter what. However, once I determined that homeschooling (in general) WAS the right thing for my child, I would then proceed to find the very best set-up for him. That part of it is much more controllable than the response of the child himself.
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
Are you speaking from experience as a home-schooler Grits? I know it's more prevalent in the US than the UK.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
My point is that, by definition, those who home school are a self selecting group - chosen for their commitment to their kids, the value they place on education and the thought and care they put into it. That influence from parents will shine through almost regardless of the place of education. My siblings and my parents and their siblings have all managed to have "steady jobs and stable relationships", and yet we all attended mainstream schools, mostly state funded with a very conventional curriculum. The common factor is a stable home background, educated and intelligent parents and a commitment to education. None of which depend on the type of schooling or unschooling or anything in between that we experienced.
I have no doubt that home schooling can provide an excellent education for many young people, I just doubt that it is noticably superior to a decent mainstream school. It certainly doesn't seem to include a basic understanding of controlling for other factors when studying social phenomena; nor the understanding that data is not the plural of anecdote.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
Are you speaking from experience as a home-schooler Grits? I know it's more prevalent in the US than the UK.
Not personally, no, just from experience as a parent, teacher and general advocate for children.
My point is that some parents homeschool because it's what THEY want, not necessarily because it is the best thing for the child, which is sad. And some homeschool programs are just, well, crap. As I said, once you've determined that homeschooling is the right choice for your child, then I think it's the parent's obligation to find the very best program available for that child.
It's gotten to be a little too status-related for my tastes. It's like, "How can you call yourself a good parent if you don't homeschool?" I generally dislike anything that people do just because they think it makes them look good. It's all about the motivation, and that should always be the child's best interest.
Oh, and our older son did beg us to homeschool him on more than one occasion. It would not have been the right choice for him.
[ 08. June 2012, 20:38: Message edited by: Grits ]
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Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
In the UK status doesn't seem to have much to do with it. Most EO families were relatively poor when I was involved. The national gatherings, usually two or three a year, were held in very cheap venues with communal catering. I remember a glorious Victorian 'castle' whose only other regular booking was from Borstal. The owner liked us because we left the place cleaner than how found it.
The people who regularly went to national gatherings were on the whole more left-wing and 'alternative' than perhaps the general membership but judging from local gatherings and from the newsletter there wasn't much school-type education going on even among the more conventional. But it didn't make any difference. I recall one young girl who seemed to do nothing but dancing and reading. She took no exams other than those for dancing. She found work as a care assistant and then decided she'd like to be a nurse. She studied for the necessary exams to gain entrance to a nursing course and passed them all within a year while also working full time.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
.....I have no doubt that home schooling can provide an excellent education for many young people, I just doubt that it is noticably superior to a decent mainstream school. It certainly doesn't seem to include a basic understanding of controlling for other factors when studying social phenomena; nor the understanding that data is not the plural of anecdote.
Have a look at the EO website and the research. Research comparing home educated children with those educated at school shows home educated children as two years ahead on average and when those from working class backgrounds are compared it's three years ahead.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think a consideration would be whether you intend to home school permanently or transition into the state system at some point. The transition from home school to standard school is likely to be challenging for the child.
I suppose the other thing I would worry about is the risk of a child - especially if they are an only child - growing with the world arranged around them. Because then adult life is going to come as more of a shock.
It is rather the way I worry about children more generally being led to believe that if you want something enough you will get it.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
There are some interesting contrasts in the research - see here and here.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
And here is a more recent report.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
I think a consideration would be whether you intend to home school permanently or transition into the state system at some point. The transition from home school to standard school is likely to be challenging for the child.
From the cases I know of I'd say it's more challenging for the school.
quote:
I suppose the other thing I would worry about is the risk of a child - especially if they are an only child - growing with the world arranged around them. Because then adult life is going to come as more of a shock.
But the world isn't arranged around them. It isn't arranged at all. That's the point. It isn't an artificial way of educating, which is what the school system is, it's learning within a natural pattern of family, friends and community. Home educated children grow up relating to adults and learning from and with them. They can grow up at their own pace and in their own way.
I'm interested in why home education seems threatening to some people. Being told that your child won't gain any qualifications, won't get a job, won't be properly 'socialised' was a common experience. When these predictions proved to be false those who'd made them sometimes had problems coming to terms with it. I had some quite aggressive reactions from some people. I recall another EOer saying "people will forgive you anything, except being right".
Lots of successful people have been home educated including the Queen.
[ 08. June 2012, 21:54: Message edited by: justlooking ]
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
And here is a more recent report.
There has been a move to try to bring in local education authority monitoring for home education, however it has been successfully argued that school education inspectors are only qualified to judge school education. They have no understanding or experience of autonomous education and cannot make any valid assessment.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
Actually Local Education Authorities now have to provide information to parents considering home education and also provide ongoing support and advice if it is requested. LEA's relationships with home educating families are assessed by Ofsted.
Looking at the Guidelines (which can be downloaded from the EO link) I'm impressed by the positive and helpful tone. A great contrast to the attitudes of some LEA's in the earlier days of EO when some families were lied to and threatened with having their children taken into care.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I so much wanted to home school, as I thought it would be awesome to explore so many cool subjects and topics with my geeky kid. Unfortunately (fortunately?) he turns out to be his father's son and would happily live in the middle of a shopping mall--the more people the better for him. So I bowed to the inevitable and sent him off to enjoy the crowds in school.
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
My sisters and I were home schooled til we were ten and it was bloody awful. My main problem with it was the idiosyncracies my parents had when it came to what to teach, the fact that all my emotional eggs were in one basket - I couldn't piss my teacher off without pissing my mum off, and the fact that it was very isolating.
When my circumstances changed and I went to school, although in other ways it was bloody awful, at least there was other people around me and I learned about life outside the very closed community that my family had become.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
My sisters and I were home schooled til I was ten and it was bloody awful. My main problem with it was the idiosyncracies my parents had when it came to what to teach, the fact that all my emotional eggs were in one basket - I couldn't piss my teacher off without pissing my mum off, and the fact that it was very isolating.
When my circumstances changed and I went to school, although in other ways it was bloody awful, at least there was other people around me and I learned about life outside the very closed community that my family had become.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I'm not entirely unsympathetic here, however, I would suggest justlooking is missing the point here:
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
quote:
I suppose the other thing I would worry about is the risk of a child - especially if they are an only child - growing with the world arranged around them. Because then adult life is going to come as more of a shock.
But the world isn't arranged around them. It isn't arranged at all. That's the point. It isn't an artificial way of educating, which is what the school system is, it's learning within a natural pattern of family, friends and community. Home educated children grow up relating to adults and learning from and with them. They can grow up at their own pace and in their own way.
You seem to be contradicting yourself here-- "growing up at their own pace and in their own way" would seem to be precisely what the prior poster was referencing when s/he talks of having things arranged around them, along with the concern that that is not the way the "adult" world works.
Your other points, I think are quite valid-- as are the results. But here I think you're missing the point.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Public schools: Where else in society do people go about in age-segregated herds?
I was homeschooled all the way through. No, it isn't for everyone. But I thoroughly enjoyed it, and I definitely think that it has given me an edge in my vocation and in my college career.
I think the best part was that I was able to learn how to interact with people of all ages, races, and backgrounds. I'm certain that there are many people who were educated conventionally who learned the same thing, but I think I had an advantage because I wasn't stuck in an age-segregated classroom all day, but was instead able to go out and meet people. This has helped me in my vocation as a missionary and pastor.
Like I said, it's not for everyone. My learning style and personality was perfectly suited for it. YMMV.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
cliffdweller: Growing up at their own pace and in their own way means growing up naturally in a way that suits the particular child instead of being forced through the 'sausage machine'. It's the school system that creates an artificial world built around a standardised idea of 'child' or 'adolescent'.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
There's a danger when the parent doesn't actually know how to educate the child. I'm thinking of a 'homeschooled' child in my area who grew up on a farm (a fairly isolated environment already). Homeschooling, in her case, was a euphemism for hardly any education at all.
I'm sure the really caring parents do a great job, though, and ensure their homeschooled kids get a balanced education and also meet other people. As do caring parents who school-educate. (I observed what was lacking in school education and made sure my children had access to those things - eg. relating to people of all ages - in out-of-school activities, full and free access to library books on all topics, educational visits in the school holidays. That way you get the best of all worlds).
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
I'm interested in why home education seems threatening to some people.
People are reacting negatively on this thread because you're being so overtly pro-homeschooling that you're (a) dominating the conversation, making it harder for others who differ from having their say, and (b) almost coming to the point of saying that anyone who sends their child to a conventional school isn't a good parent.
Throw into the mix the fact that some of the more well-known homeschoolers tend to be isolationist weirdos like the Phelps clan, who do it so that they can guarantee that their kids grow up exactly like them rather than getting any funny ideas from actually interacting with other people, and you can perhaps see where the negative reaction is coming from.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
I have a friend who home schools her son. He goes regularly to something called Woodland School, organised by a group of homeschooling parents, and he is also part of a local drama group, so he meets lots of other kids regularly.
He's also been invited into the local primary school to teach the children there origami! He's eight, and really quite bright, and artistic - he would probably cope well with ordinary school, but at present he's having wonderful experiences, and learning, and I don't see anything wrong with that.
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Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
It certainly helps if you are in an area where the schools are open to allowing homeschooled children access to certain parts of the curriculum where they can mix with others, eg. sport - especially team games - and music. Not all schools will do this though - my sons' headmaster said to the homeschoolers, 'You either opt completely in or you opt completely out, we're not being messed around by your pick'n'mix attitude'.
I guess schools are under all sorts of pressure these days, not least from Ofsted and League Tables, that they cannot always afford to be too flexible. They are probably also worried that it will spread unrest among other children and parents who might also start thinking they can withdraw from the parts of school life they don't really fancy. Schools are quite strongly penalised if truancy figures are perceived to be going up - quite how you measure truancy when lots of pupils are opting in and out at various times, I'm not really sure.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eigon:
I have a friend who home schools her son. He goes regularly to something called Woodland School
So he's homeschooled, but he goes to a school? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I was a perpetually bored conventional schooler who always imagined being a homeschooled Victorian child...back in the day homeschooling was illegal for the most part in Michigan.
I've been reading up on various homeschooling curricula -- one of those Internet rabbit holes one tends to fall down into while looking for other things -- apart from the crazypants Christian ones, I'm rather taken by some of the more academically rigorous ones. If I had a child and had the luxurty of being a stay-at-home mom I'd certainly consider it as an option, especially now that there are innumerable extra-school sports teams and other ways for homeschooled kids to learn socialization skills.
When I was in school I was constantly punished for "reading beyond the lesson" in my textbooks or asking questions that the slower children didn't understand. Anything that saves a child from that sort of treatment is, I think, a good thing.
From what I've read, I like the Charlotte Mason and Montessori methods...Oak Meadow, which is a sort of de-spiritualized Waldorf program also seems good for very small children, although I'd be inclined to use more rigorous writing and science curricula to augment it.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Meg the Red
Shipmate
# 11838
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
It certainly helps if you are in an area where the schools are open to allowing homeschooled children access to certain parts of the curriculum where they can mix with others, eg. sport - especially team games - and music. Not all schools will do this though -
I'm not sure how this works in the UK, but here it's a funding issue - schools may balk at providing resources to students for whom they are not funded, which may strain their resources. The public school system here has provided a viable option for homeschooled parents where they can access activities and certified teacher support, while the Home Education centre receives funding to provide the student with curriculum materials and other resources. Same with this school. It's nice that there are options; I don't believe that one is inherently better than the others.
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Chocoholic Canuckistani Cyclopath
Posts: 1126 | From: Rat Creek | Registered: Sep 2006
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
When I was in school I was constantly punished for "reading beyond the lesson" in my textbooks or asking questions that the slower children didn't understand. Anything that saves a child from that sort of treatment is, I think, a good thing.
That can be as simple as "having teachers who are not morons". I'm a teacher and I'm delighted when a student has a complex question about my subject, or has taken the trouble to look at future work before we get to it. Indeed, my students know that the best way to avoid working for a few minutes is to ask interesting questions and let me ramble for a bit, so I have to restrain myself a little so they can get some work done.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
I'm interested in why home education seems threatening to some people.
People are reacting negatively on this thread because you're being so overtly pro-homeschooling that you're (a) dominating the conversation, making it harder for others who differ from having their say, and (b) almost coming to the point of saying that anyone who sends their child to a conventional school isn't a good parent.
The OP is asking about the pros and cons, especially in the UK. The Phelps clan are an extreme example of a US fundamentalist Christian approach.
My interest in why home education seems to be threatening to some people comes from personal experience and that of other home educators. I’m not suggesting that contributors of cons to this thread come into this category. It's not always a matter of whether or not people agree with home education. Some cons are based on legitimate fears or on personal negative experiences. But sometimes it seems to be congnitive dissonance - there are people who just don't want it to be OK or to see successful results. These can be the family, neighbours and LEA officials I've mentioned. In my own family someone has simply re-written history and pretended they supported it all along. When my son went to university neighbours' children kicked my fence down. I had abusive phone calls from an LEA officer. Other parents had similar or worse experiences. It’s all very civilised now, as the LEA Guidelines show, but there have been some hard battles.
I know it will always be a minority option and sending a child to school certainly isn't being a 'bad' parent but many people think there's no alternative or that any alternative must necessarily follow the pattern of school education in order to qualify as a ‘proper education’.
Going back to the Phelps clan; during my time in EO Fundamentalist Christians were an issue. There was a policy of membership being open to all which meant that the legal support was also available to all and this led to some difficulties. One legal supporter was asked to visit such a family and help with problems they were having with their LEA. She was very disturbed by their method of educating which included physical punishment and a rigid ’bible-based’ curriculum they’d obtained from the US. As an organisation we agreed that such families would not be refused membership and would be given all the relevant information, but that we could not actively support their methods. At the national gatherings there was zero tolerance of physical violence. Generally the kind of parents who came to these meetings were not those who hit their children and I only saw this once. The mother concerned was told that if it ever happened again she would be asked to leave. She left anyway. There are home educating groups specifically for Fundamentalist Christians and some people will form their opinions for home education from these. But in the UK these are a minority among the estimated 40,000 home educating families.
I’ve waiting a few hours before posting a response because I don’t want to dominate the conversation and really want to see what others having their say produces.
The pros and cons, rights and responsibilities, have been discussed and debated in Parliament resulting in the law and Guidelines I've linked to. 'Flexi-schooling' is mentioned in the Guidelines and FE colleges can admit underage students. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.
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cliffdweller
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
cliffdweller: Growing up at their own pace and in their own way means growing up naturally in a way that suits the particular child instead of being forced through the 'sausage machine'. It's the school system that creates an artificial world built around a standardised idea of 'child' or 'adolescent'.
Yes, I understood that the first time. And, as I said, I think that's a valid argument. But it doesn't change my point-- or Think's-- about the real world not being structured to allow for that sort of individualized self-direction, "natural" as it may be. You are contradicting yourself. You can't have it both ways.
[ 09. June 2012, 15:12: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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justlooking
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Posted
cliffdweller: I really don't understand how this is contradicting myself. Can you explain please?
[ 09. June 2012, 15:13: Message edited by: justlooking ]
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cliffdweller
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Perhaps it would help to revisit the original conversational thread:
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
I suppose the other thing I would worry about is the risk of a child - especially if they are an only child - growing with the world arranged around them. Because then adult life is going to come as more of a shock.
But the world isn't arranged around them. It isn't arranged at all. That's the point. It isn't an artificial way of educating, which is what the school system is, it's learning within a natural pattern of family, friends and community. Home educated children grow up relating to adults and learning from and with them. They can grow up at their own pace and in their own way.
Your point-- and a good one-- is that homeschooling allows children to learn at their own pace, following their own passions, etc.
Think made the counterpoint that this may cause problems later, since the world is not really set up for individualized self-direction-- the "world arranged around them".
You countered by saying "But the world isn't arranged around them. It isn't arranged at all. That's the point". But then you simply repeated the same argument that the individualized self-direction is a more "natural" form of education, rather than addressing Think's concern.
I think most of us agree with your point-- that homeschooling amid family and community is a "natural" form of education and can produce excellent "results" (depending, of course, on how you're defining "success"-- something we've yet to do). You paint an idyllic picture. But it still doesn't address Think's point re: whether individualized self-direction, however, natural it may be, prepares young people for, say, a corporate culture where individualized self-direction is not rewarded, where indeed conforming to a rigid, externally imposed set of expectations is, in fact, the name of the game. As dreary as that sounds, I'm afraid that is the reality for many professions these days, to a greater or lesser degree.
I'm not presuming the answer-- nor do I think, was Think. I'm just pointing out that you really haven't yet addressed the question.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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cliffdweller
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Posted
Adding on to say, perhaps preparing youth people for corporate culture is not the goal-- since we have not yet defined what a successful outcome would be. Perhaps that's the whole point-- to overturn rigid, stifling corporate culture by raising up a generation of free-thinkers. But either way, I'd like to hear a non-defensive response to Think's question.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
From what I've read, I like the Charlotte Mason and Montessori methods...
I studied at Charlotte Mason's college (motto: 'For the Children's Sake') - back in those days we were able to incorporate many of her ideas into state education, at least in the infant department. But it has more recently been clocked on the head by SATs pressures, and the like.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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justlooking
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Posted
quote:
You paint an idyllic picture. But it still doesn't address Think's point re: whether individualized self-direction, however, natural it may be, prepares young people for, say, a corporate culture where individualized self-direction is not rewarded, where indeed conforming to a rigid, externally imposed set of expectations is, in fact, the name of the game. As dreary as that sounds, I'm afraid that is the reality for many professions these days, to a greater or lesser degree.
I'm not presuming the answer-- nor do I think, was Think. I'm just pointing out that you really haven't yet addressed the question
Yes, it is an idyllic picture. While there were certainly difficulties, what comes back from those years is a kind of tribal feeling. I feel privileged to have been part of EO and grateful, especially for what it gave my son. I think it was a formation process. My abiding memories include lengthy consensus decision-making and people who could disagree strongly yet still still be friends.
As to the question - whether individualized self-direction, however, natural it may be, prepares young people for, say, a corporate culture where individualized self-direction is not rewarded, where indeed conforming to a rigid, externally imposed set of expectations is, in fact, the name of the game. - you seem to be suggesting that a corporate culture of rigid conformity to externally imposed expectations requires an education based on the same culture.
If this were true then chldren whose education is self-directed would grow up as misfits unable to fit into the adult world adn those who have debated the subject in parliament would have numerous examples of this. But it isn't true. As Zacchaeus pointed out, home education is about learning how to learn.
People who've learned how to learn are well equipped to learn anything they put their minds to, including rigid conformist corporate culture, if that's what's needed. So the girl I mentioned who danced her way to 18 was able to apply herself to what she needed to do for a career in nursing.
[ 09. June 2012, 17:05: Message edited by: justlooking ]
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
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Posted
I think this discussion would sit better in Purg, rather than among the fribble of Heaven.
Firenze
Heaven Host
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cliffdweller
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
[QUOTE][b]
As to the question - whether individualized self-direction, however, natural it may be, prepares young people for, say, a corporate culture where individualized self-direction is not rewarded, where indeed conforming to a rigid, externally imposed set of expectations is, in fact, the name of the game. - you seem to be suggesting that a corporate culture of rigid conformity to externally imposed expectations requires an education based on the same culture.
If this were true then chldren whose education is self-directed would grow up as misfits unable to fit into the adult world adn those who have debated the subject in parliament would have numerous examples of this. But it isn't true. As Zacchaeus pointed out, home education is about learning how to learn.
(sigh) wish we could avoid the defensiveness in this discussion (on both sides) but it's inevitable when we're talking about such personal choices.
Again, I wasn't "suggesting" anything, just asking you to respond to Think's question, which I believe, was a real question, not a set-up for a "suggestion".
The question isn't really will homeschoolers be able to "function" in a different environment-- clearly they can. But then clearly so can public-school educated kids. We find adults who were educated in all sorts of ways leading successful lives in all sorts of fields-- from corporate bureaucracy to creative arts and everything in between. Anecdotal evidence could be offered on both sides. So the question then is one of relativity, not absolutes. Harder to calculate, so perhaps the question is unanswerable.
[ 09. June 2012, 17:55: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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justlooking
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Posted
So, is the question about whether an education based on 'individualized self-direction' is a less helpful preparation for adult life than a school education?
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
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Posted
Some children are very sensitive, my eldest son was sensitive to noise, light, different foods etc etc. I often wonder if home schooling would have been better for him. School was very hard for him - especially Primary school.
But he has turned out a happy, confident, well adjusted young man. So I think it was fine, in the end.
As a teacher I must admit that I hate what (British) schools do to children at the moment. They are so targets and results driven that 99% of creativity, for teachers and children, is driven out.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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cliffdweller
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
So, is the question about whether an education based on 'individualized self-direction' is a less helpful preparation for adult life than a school education?
Yes. Although, again, may be to hard to calculate unless someone has done a comprehensive study. But yes, I believe that is what Think's long-ago question was aimed at.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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justlooking
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Posted
I don't see any evidence to show that it's less helpful. My own experience leads to me to think that it's more helpful.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
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Posted
I had in the course of my schooling, American style kindergarten, homeschooling, British state primary school, traditional public school, non-traditional international sixth form college.
The sixth form was where I was happiest - but one of the key things about that experience was that we all came from very different backgrounds - so I wasn't having to break into a pre-existing set of relationships. Whereas I got bullied in the primary school, and was a loner through most of the trad secondary school.
Conversely, as an adult, one of the things that is a slight social hinderance is not having a similar experience of childhood to my peers. It gives you a kind of nostalgia bypass.
I have always, and continue, to stick out like a sore thumb in some ways. Being perceived as different is not necessarily a bad thing, but it can be lonely and can be somewhat isolating. It has taken me along time to get comfortable in my own skin - and I have remained single almost my entire adult life.
Now obviously I don't think that is all down to education - but I do think that it isn't all about educational outcome. I suspect it is easier to be homeschooled through to university rather than partially. I would think it is better if there is a community you link into whilst being homeschooled - we didn't really have that because we were in a foreign country at the time.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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justlooking
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Posted
I'd advise anyone thinking of home schooling to find out about the support groups. It gives children shared experiences with others who are out of the school system. I couldn't have coped without EO. My son went through primary school and he didn't hate it but there were things he found irrational and upsetting.
I was surprised by how supportive my mother was. She reasoned that if there was anything wrong with what I was doing my son wouldn't be so happy. She was amazed at all the things he did and the places we went.
[ 09. June 2012, 19:45: Message edited by: justlooking ]
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