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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Those who are shut out of a "self-serve" culture
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Very different history from Kenya I think - which is the only country in Africa I've ever lived in, decades agao but I strill try to follw what goes on there. Though the African country I am most in touch with now is probably Nigeria since there are so many Nigerians in our church congregtion. Last week's church Men's Group meeting started slowly with a ten or fifteen minute bitch about Nigerian politics - I could follow the bits that weren't in Yoruba:)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
A homeless friend is frustrated that the on-line job form takes 2 hours to fill out and the public library limits computer use to one hour.
Meanwhile, several friends have dial-up only, or no internet, because the cost of high speed internet is really high in USA.
I just want to mention that WiFi is available just about everywhere.
In cities maybe. I live in a tiny town surrounded by many miles of rural. The closest free wifi for rural dwellers is easily a 20 minute drive and $5 gas away. That's not conducive to checking email every day, which you have to do if a job offer is via email, or of your bowling club or chorus communicates irregularly via email.
My little town newly has a few places with free Wifi, but many of the towns within an hour's drive have no library, no McDonalds, and no (known) free Wifi.
quote:
I ... take the used laptops from work that we would just end up junking and marrying them up with folks who don't have one... My wife is a town librarian, and she often encounters people who could use a free laptop.
Really great that your company lets you do that; some companies won't give away anything that might bring in a few bucks, some friends have computers their company SOLD to them (cheap) when upgrading. Wish more would do like yours. But then, there's such reluctance to give anything of value to a person with no certain address because of the assumption they'll sell it for booze.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
The world is set up in such a way as to exclude people. Always has been. Nobody means to do it, it just happens as the majority responds to what is easy and convenient for them, and the other stuff becomes impractical. A set of people is getting excluded by technology (and that's not a good thing) but I suspect that the number of people who have always been excluded to some extent who are now benefitting from the new technology is greater than the number of people who are now being excluded. But these people who are now benefitting are often people who've been easy to forget, because they're socially or physically isolated. If you are unable to get out much due to illness or disability, being able to order groceries online rather than having to send someone to the shops on your behalf, is great. Keeping up with others online rather than being lonely is great. I think a lot of us weren't all that conscious of how isolated some people were, *because* they were shut away behind closed doors and didn't want to bother anyone. If elderly people are nervous about the technology then that's a shame because they actually stand to gain a great deal from it if they manage to use it effectively - and there's nothing inherent in being old which makes you unable to use the internet. It's just not what many people are used to.
I know a fair number of adults, myself included, who can use computers but are unable to drive. In my case, I am almost certainly incapable of learning to drive because of executive dysfunction issues related to the ASD. Driving excludes a large number of people, and having a friend or relative who can drive doesn't entirely mitigate that exclusion (any more than having a relative with internet access would mitigate that exclusion). There's a wide variety of medical conditions which can prevent you from driving, and of course many of the people who are hit hardest are elderly people who've always been able to drive but later become unable to.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
The world is set up in such a way as to exclude people. Always has been. Nobody means to do it, it just happens as the majority responds to what is easy and convenient for them, and the other stuff becomes impractical. A set of people is getting excluded by technology (and that's not a good thing) but I suspect that the number of people who have always been excluded to some extent who are now benefitting from the new technology is greater than the number of people who are now being excluded. But these people who are now benefitting are often people who've been easy to forget, because they're socially or physically isolated. If you are unable to get out much due to illness or disability, being able to order groceries online rather than having to send someone to the shops on your behalf, is great. Keeping up with others online rather than being lonely is great. I think a lot of us weren't all that conscious of how isolated some people were, *because* they were shut away behind closed doors and didn't want to bother anyone. If elderly people are nervous about the technology then that's a shame because they actually stand to gain a great deal from it if they manage to use it effectively - and there's nothing inherent in being old which makes you unable to use the internet. It's just not what many people are used to.
I can second everything you're saying here. My health has taken a sharp nosedive in the last couple of years, this past year especially, and if it weren't for being able to shop online for both groceries and other needed items as well as do online banking I'd be SOL on many occasions. I've had to give up driving for the time being.
My mother is one of those left out of technology, but she has my siblings and I to do whatever she needs and I can take care of a lot of her shopping needs online as well. She doesn't drive, but fortunately her church is keeping the low tech methods of snail mail newsletters as well as email for the technologically able and volunteers that pick up those who are unable to drive. On the rare occasion that illness forces her to stay home for an extended period of time one of the pastors will do a home visit. I do wish that more places would keep means in place for those who left out of the technology.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
The world is set up in such a way as to exclude people. Always has been. Nobody means to do it, it just happens as the majority responds to what is easy and convenient for them, and the other stuff becomes impractical.
You're right that the world is set up that way, but wrong that it is not intentional. If we are the stock trader, we want to have the inside information and use it against our trading partner. It is a rare parent, indeed, who does not want to give an edge to his kids -- "It's not enough that I succeed: you must fail." We know in our hearts that our beloved seed is not particularly special, and is prone to laziness and cutting corners (where, oh where, did they ever get such failings...). We want them to have the best school -- not a school adequate to their ability, but a school that will allow them to go to the front of the line when it comes to jobs, marriage, etc.
Pretending that we want everyone to have the same advantages is counter-productive. We need to acknowledge that cheating is in our very nature or we will not be able to respond as a society in a manner that works to thwart our individual failings. Or so ISTM.
--Tom Clune
[ 13. June 2012, 12:52: Message edited by: tclune ]
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Some intentional, some not. An old local church has half a flight of steps. (We have no snow or floods, no functional need for ground floor to be above ground level.)
I doubt anyone built a church building with steps for the purpose of keeping old folks and others with knee problems away. It was probably a cost thing, saved digging that many more feet of basement. Having a basement for the fellowship hall meant, of course, no one who has trouble with stairs could participate in events, but they wouldn't be in the building anyway so no one noticed.
And people just assumed as you get old you stay home more, "too bad Jane can't get to church anymore because of the stairs, but that's what happens when you get old."
Today it's "too bad Beth can't get to church anymore because she can't drive anymore, but that's what happens when you get old." Or "Too bad Greg doesn't receive notices of our club's activities, but that's what happens if you don't have or don't check email." ("Not my job to do anything about it.")
No one designed the internet to be the way computerless have to apply for minimum wage jobs. It just happened by confluence of various independent profit-oriented interests. No one has a profit stake in changing the system to include those who can't contribute to the profits. But yes, it might also be taken advantage of to screen out most of the very poor applicants so as to hire only those with middle class speech patterns for the low paying public contact jobs like salesclerk.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
My experience in west Africa (Sénégal, Mauritania and the Gambia) was that even the smaller towns had internet cafés and that the connection speeds were decent. Sénégal had invested quite a bit of money into internet infrastructure and it paid off.
Most people didn't have cars but public transport tended to be rather good. Cities were very walkable and there was a dense network of bush taxis which transported people between cities. You could go to the local gare routière and, for a few CFA franc (less than a dollar), secure a seat on a small 7 seater car that would take you almost anywhere. That's how I got around west Africa when I vacationed there in 2008.
In the early days of the internet in North America cyber-cafés were quite common, but now they are as common as phone booths. If you are homeless, or don't can't afford a computer/isp, and the local library doesn't have free access, it's pretty hard to get online. The sad thing, in the U.S. at least, is that libraries are often dismissed as anachronisms and are having their hours cut or being closed in many places. Budget cuts often affect them before many other services.
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Orfeo, we're discussing aptitude in the context of gateway technology which, if not mastered, precludes full participation in society. Do you believe that your 10 year old nephew lacks the aptitude to drive? Do his parents/guardians lack the ability to drive? As a result, is he truly shut out from those opportunities accessible to him only via automobile?
In all seriousness, do you not remember what life was like before you could drive?
I certainly remember what it was like in my later teenage years, before I got my licence at age 19.
This is a pond difference. I've been driving since I was 15. Sure, I remember what life was like before that -- other people drove me around. In the place where I lived it was the only practical means of transport much of the year since there is no public transport and we have ice and snow. Predictably, everybody drives or has someone who does it for them, or moves someplace else. There are very very few people who spend a lifetime being unable to drive because they aren't capable of doing it.
In contrast I believe there are quite a number of people who will never figure out how to deal with ATM machines, automated checkouts, and online job applications, no matter how hard they try and no matter how much training they have.
quote:
However, living in a country where the idea of drive-through banking is unheard of, you are certainly not going to convince me that a car is a particularly vital component of banking. It might be a useful thing for getting TO the bank, but frankly I've got an urge to say that drive-through banking is a total extravagance. Park the car somewhere nearby, get out of it and WALK into a bank.
Read the opening post. It is not drive-through banking that has been discontinued, it's drive through banking with human tellers. There is still an ATM at the drive through. This, as I noted, is a harbinger of the loss of human tellers at the walk-up window as well.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
While various cost and connectivity barriers exist, I see as the main problem the large number of people who lack the cognitive ability to interact with computers effectively. It is a greater barrier than basic literacy.
[ 13. June 2012, 19:51: Message edited by: Bartolomeo ]
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
I just want to mention that WiFi is available just about everywhere.
In urbanized areas of the U.S. this is true.
In rural areas that lack good broadband service there is no public WiFi available because there is no cost effective backhaul for it.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
I just want to mention that WiFi is available just about everywhere.
In urbanized areas of the U.S. this is true.
Actually, not even that. Here in L.A. most of the Starbucks and other places that used to offer free wifi require you to make a purchase before giving you the password. The only other reliable source of free wifi has been the public libraries, which as was noted upthread, are now being closed or reduced to very limited hours due to budget constraints.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
This, as I noted, is a harbinger of the loss of human tellers at the walk-up window as well.
Noted? Asserted without evidence, more like.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
I just want to mention that WiFi is available just about everywhere.
In urbanized areas of the U.S. this is true.
In rural areas that lack good broadband service there is no public WiFi available because there is no cost effective backhaul for it.
I suppose that depends on what you mean by "rural." My sister lives in western Michigan, which seems pretty back-water to me. She has no problem using her laptop at a variety of locations -- including the local library -- without getting an internet connection herself. It may be more difficult to find a WiFi hotspot in the middle of Montana, but around here every MacDonald's provides free WiFi -- and I live in what is considered to be a remote area for Massachusetts.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
a MacDonald's with wifi? Wow, classy.
Last winter when we had an epic power outtage (5 days.. probably not epic for some, but here in So. Cal, unprecedented) we searched high and low for wifi. Only places we could find were Starbucks and Peets. Peets won our loyalty by waiving the 1 hour limit for the duration of the outtage (besides, their coffee is better). We formed a nice community-- sharing outlets to recharge our various electronic devices and exchanging Edison rumors.
Tangent out.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
In the UK there is a network called The Cloud which gives free wifi if you sign up. McDonalds is part of it, as are sandwich chains, pizza places etc. Starbucks is still giving it free too.
Not much use, though, if you're out in the sticks.
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
While various cost and connectivity barriers exist, I see as the main problem the large number of people who lack the cognitive ability to interact with computers effectively. It is a greater barrier than basic literacy.
This post may prove that I'm a dick, but how is it possible to be cognitively unable to use a computer unless you're so cognitively impaired that you'd have difficulty living in society without special support anyway?
Computers have been around in pretty much their present form for about 17 years (going by the release date of Windows 95). It seems to me that people who haven't worked out how to use them by now have either made a conscious decision to be technophobes, or else have cognitive difficulties that would hold them back anyway.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I think "cognitive ability" is a bit of red herring in a lot of cases. Most of the people I know who don't have internet are elderly.
My Grandad, for example, is 89 years old and I don't think he'd even know where the on button is on a computer, much less how to do his banking over the internet. He's not thick and he still has a goodly proportion of his marbles, but learning it would definitely take him longer than a younger person.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Once on a Sunday, I visited my grandfather in the old people's home were he lived. In the communal space they had just installed around 10 computers with internet connection.
I asked him: "Let's look around on internet a bit!" It took a bit of convincing, but when I told him it would probably have old pictures of the town where he was born, he got interested.
However, we couldn't log on to computers. The people who work there told us we could get an 'internet pass' at the earliest next Wednesday ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
There are many people who work with computers at their place of employment who know only what they absolutely have to know and have no interest in learning anything else about them, how to take advantage of services offered online or even do email and surf the web. Sometimes it's a case of willful shutting oneself out.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
In the place where I lived it was the only practical means of transport much of the year since there is no public transport and we have ice and snow. Predictably, everybody drives or has someone who does it for them, or moves someplace else. There are very very few people who spend a lifetime being unable to drive because they aren't capable of doing it.
In contrast I believe there are quite a number of people who will never figure out how to deal with ATM machines, automated checkouts, and online job applications, no matter how hard they try and no matter how much training they have.
I don't believe that there are very very few people who spend a lifetime unable to drive because they aren't capable of doing it. There may be very few in the particular community in which you live because as you say, they have to move somewhere else. They still exist though, even if they do have to move to a city where there is adequate public transport in order to avoid being completely excluded from society. We're talking about everyone with poor vision that can't be corrected with glasses, everyone with epilepsy, a huge number of people with cognitive or physical impairments. The thing about driving is that it's inherently exclusive: there are many people out there who simply cannot drive safely. I'm not saying that driving is bad - it's very useful for people who can do it. It does, however, illustrate the point that I made upthread. Cars appeared and they were convenient for a lot of people, and therefore the places where they became popular started being organised for the benefit of motorists.
By contrast, the internet is not *inherently* exclusive - in fact at its core it is a fantastically inclusive bit of technology. With the use of the right hardware and software you can make it useful for almost anyone. Most of the issues on this thread have been to do with access rather than the technology itself. The poorest people are screwed over in a vast array of ways, and some of these people being unable to get internet access is one of these. The answer to that is not trying to turn the clock back - it's improving access.
Of the people who don't use (for example) ATMs, how many are really, genuinely incapable of using them? I'd imagine that that's pretty low. Some people don't like machines; some people are set in their ways and don't want to learn a new way of doing things; some people just prefer getting human interaction wherever they can. These people show up whenever a new technology appears because there will always be people like this. But incapable of using one and incapable of learning how? That's surely going to be a much, much smaller proportion of people than are unable to drive.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I think "cognitive ability" is a bit of red herring in a lot of cases. Most of the people I know who don't have internet are elderly.
I see the unwillingness of many elderly people to use computers to be a transient phenomenon due to lack of exposure to computers earlier in life.
I certainly don't intent "cognitive ability" as a red herring. For an ATM, you have to be able to remember a PIN, which may change over the years for various reasons and which you're not supposed to write down. You have to be able to read well enough to navigate the menus, which vary from one machine to the next and vary over time, and which lack any cues or hints for the less literate.
With computers the barriers are higher. There's more to memorize and more to read. Even people who are reasonably bright can inadvertently delete an icon or move something to a location where they can't find it.
The extent of social stratification by cognitive ability is much greater than most people realize. Those people you haven't seen since they dropped out of school after 8th grade are still out there somewhere.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
The extent of social stratification by cognitive ability is much greater than most people realize. Those people you haven't seen since they dropped out of school after 8th grade are still out there somewhere.
Oh yes. I worked in banks most of my life and was initially surprised at the number of people who were illiterate. Every week, I would show them where to make their "X", look up their account number, explain at length why they couldn't put $50 in saving, $50 on their gas bill and get $50 cash back from their $135 check. If they asked, I would try to show them how to "get money out the wall," but it was just too much for them. However, I would sometimes find their social security or Kroger card in the ATM's card catcher, so I know they were trying.
I don't think it's going to get better anytime soon. My father was very eagar to learn how to use the computer but he found out it wasn't like buying a TV. He couldn't just bring it home and plug it in. I wonder how many people, educated or not, have new pieces of technology sitting around unused because the start up procedure was so complicated?
I'm really sort of glad that some people still need cashiers and sales clerks. Human contact is a good thing and some of us are much better able to communicate in person, with the help of smiles and gestures, than simply through typing.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
a MacDonald's with wifi? Wow, classy.
Tangent out.
/Tangent back in.
MacDonald's has been making a concerted effort to move upscale. They have a variety of latte-like coffees and muffin-like things now. I imagine that the WiFi is part of this makeover. If you haven't been to a MacDonald's recently, you might find that your local MickeyD's has WiFi, too.
/Tangent back out.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
From what I can gather, Bartolemo's bank still has human cashiers, the only change is that it doesn't have them at a drive-thru desk. This means that he has to actually get out of his 2 ton protective steel shell, go into the bank thus unclad and actually stand at the desk to meet other people in the flesh, possibly next to another person at the next desk. This is more human contact, not less. I'm all for it!
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 2821 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I am seventy-eight years old, and I can handle computers well enough to post on the ship and order stuff over the internet.
However, many websites do not give sufficiently explicit instructions for me. I want to be told exactly what to do next. Every year in the late fall, people with Medicare D can choose to change insurers if they want to. The first few years the process was easy. Then the website became so confusing that I couldn't navigate it.
Given that everyone using Medicare D is over sixty-five, you would think they would try to make things as simple as possible. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
There is no doubt that bad website design (and bad computer program design more generally) can be a complete barrier and turn-off. And that's regardless of age, frankly.
The number of people who believe they can knock up a website is clearly a lot larger than the number of people who can actually do it WELL.
[ 14. June 2012, 14:10: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
The extent of social stratification by cognitive ability is much greater than most people realize. Those people you haven't seen since they dropped out of school after 8th grade are still out there somewhere.
Yes they are. Living in the same street as me, going to the same pub, attendingthe same football matches, hanging around on street corners, buying things in the shops. We don't all live in class-bound bubbles.
The vast majority of them can handle web browsers and mobile phones. The few that genuinely can't probably couldn't handle the paperwork needed to run a bank account anyway.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
I certainly don't intent "cognitive ability" as a red herring. For an ATM, you have to be able to remember a PIN, which may change over the years for various reasons and which you're not supposed to write down. You have to be able to read well enough to navigate the menus, which vary from one machine to the next and vary over time, and which lack any cues or hints for the less literate.
Yeah, but if they're illiterate to that degree, they'll have difficulty functioning in society generally without support.
If they can't memorise a 4-digit PIN, they won't remember an 11-digit telephone number. If they can't read the instructions on an ATM screen, they'll struggle to read (say) a bus timetable or the labels in the supermarket.
Using Twilight's examples, if they can't add up $50 + $50 + $50, they'll find household budgeting impossible. If they can't distinguish between their bank card and their social security card, they'll struggle with keys.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Yeah, but if they're illiterate to that degree, they'll have difficulty functioning in society generally without support.
If they can't memorise a 4-digit PIN, they won't remember an 11-digit telephone number.
The people I have known over the years who I would characterize as being part of this group have generally not tried to memorize phone numbers. Instead, they have a list of phone numbers they use next to their phone.
There's an aside here that, in most of the U.S., phone numbers were dialed as 4 or 5 digits up until the 1970s, when they changed to 7 digits. It's now 10 digits in most cases. With each step we've lost a few people who can't deal with it any more.
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If they can't read the instructions on an ATM screen, they'll struggle to read (say) a bus timetable or the labels in the supermarket.
Well, by way of example, I can think of one individual who spent most of his adult life in the same house, working at a nearby cereal manufacturing plant as a laborer. In practice his job mainly involved pushing large carts of ingredients and supplies from one part of the building to another. He walked to work in good weather and drove his car in poor weather. He knew the streets in the town of around 40,000 where he lived, and didn't venture outside the town except in the company of others who could provide navigational assistance.
You'll note that labels in supermarkets usually feature pictures of the food item being sold. It's possible to deal with supermarkets without being literate.
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Using Twilight's examples, if they can't add up $50 + $50 + $50, they'll find household budgeting impossible. If they can't distinguish between their bank card and their social security card, they'll struggle with keys.
Continuing with this same individual, he did most of his household budgeting with envelops into which he would put money. He was frugal and really didn't like to spend money on much of anything, and so money was never, in practice, a problem for him. Since he tended to lose his ID and checkbook he would always go to the same teller at the bank, who recognized him, and would allow him to deposit and withdraw money without any ID or paperwork.
He did struggle somewhat with keys but only routinely carried his house key, his mother's house key, and his car keys, which kept it easier.
[ 14. June 2012, 19:28: Message edited by: Bartolomeo ]
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Read the opening post. It is not drive-through banking that has been discontinued, it's drive through banking with human tellers. There is still an ATM at the drive through. This, as I noted, is a harbinger of the loss of human tellers at the walk-up window as well.
What I can't figure out is how /why my bank has, in the last few years, started extending their hours further (some branches were already open on Saturdays, or open 8 am - 8 pm), opened more branches, and is even opening on Sundays in some locations. The downsizing that started in the 80s seems to be reversing. However, it seems to be the only one of the Big 5 doing this. Of course, Canadian banking - and Canadian customer service generally - is a totally different world that the US or many other places.
I suspect what may happen is an analogy with what is already happening with grocery stores: different brands and store styles to serve different types of customers. Self-checkours in stores where they will get used, cashiers in stores where they don't. Service options will be targeted just as brands, selection, and price are already. If there's customers out there, someone will figure out how to serve them efficiently and profitably. OliviaG
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
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Originally posted by tclune:
I just want to mention that WiFi is available just about everywhere.
In urbanized areas of the U.S. this is true.
In rural areas that lack good broadband service there is no public WiFi available because there is no cost effective backhaul for it.
Even in New York City truly free Wifi is quite hard to come by.
A few years ago, you could hop on one of the many unlocked stray Wifi signals that seemed to be ubiquitous here, but then people, and businesses, got concerned with data security and started encrypting their connections. Now it's hard to find anything that's open. Even the McDonald's and coffee places mentioned above tend to have encrypted Wifi which requires sales people to give you a password, and they generally won't give them out to people who aren't customers. Truly free Wifi outside of universities and libraries is very hard to come by, even here.
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Since he tended to lose his ID and checkbook he would always go to the same teller at the bank, who recognized him, and would allow him to deposit and withdraw money without any ID or paperwork.
In which case, the odds of him having ever used the drive-through teller you started with as an example are exceedingly remote.
I say this because you seem to largely be demonstrating the barriers of technology, not the existence of new barriers as a result of technological change.
[ 15. June 2012, 03:21: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Read the opening post. It is not drive-through banking that has been discontinued, it's drive through banking with human tellers. There is still an ATM at the drive through. This, as I noted, is a harbinger of the loss of human tellers at the walk-up window as well.
What I can't figure out is how /why my bank has, in the last few years, started extending their hours further (some branches were already open on Saturdays, or open 8 am - 8 pm), opened more branches, and is even opening on Sundays in some locations. The downsizing that started in the 80s seems to be reversing. However, it seems to be the only one of the Big 5 doing this. Of course, Canadian banking - and Canadian customer service generally - is a totally different world that the US or many other places.
I suspect what may happen is an analogy with what is already happening with grocery stores: different brands and store styles to serve different types of customers. Self-checkours in stores where they will get used, cashiers in stores where they don't. Service options will be targeted just as brands, selection, and price are already. If there's customers out there, someone will figure out how to serve them efficiently and profitably. OliviaG
Easy. Toronto-Dominion took over Canada Trust, the last of the independent trust companies. Canada Trust's business model was based on better service than the Big 5 banks and therefore they always had extended hours. Open until 8pm was their norm.
When TD bought Canada Trust, Canada Trust customer service model was the one used on the merged organization and TD's entire retail side was in effect turned into Canada Trust. Because Canada Trust had better service and made better money doing in.
The rest is the result of the ordinary forces of market competition. The Bank of Montreal has extended its hours too.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Truly free Wifi outside of universities and libraries is very hard to come by, even here.
I'd argue that wifi at universities isn't free, as it costs a fortune to go to school these days. Non-students aren't likely to go to Cal State Long Beach to use the wifi -- parking is an expensive nightmare, and those who live close by are either students or they're relatively well to do. Plus college campuses tend to be a real pain to navigate if you're not familiar with them.
That leaves public libraries. The limits on their hours has already been pointed out; what I'll add is that I wouldn't be all that happy about doing my banking or filling out job applications on a public network, given all the personal info those things require.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
...what I'll add is that I wouldn't be all that happy about doing my banking or filling out job applications on a public network, given all the personal info those things require.
This is an important point that is not sufficiently understood, ISTM.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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