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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » What will happen to the church when the congregations all retire? (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: What will happen to the church when the congregations all retire?
sebby
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quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Personally I think the solution is to "return the church to the people" -- encourage people to stop being dependent of formal clergy, paid or not. I grew up in a morning prayer church, why isn't that a fine way to have a lay-led church, and keep the church going longer than it can afford clergy?

I agree, this is a good move in certain circumstances.

The Synod of South Australia in the Uniting Church is getting ahead of things by proactively working on a model for rural areas (where population density cannot support ordained clergy in every congregation) where lay leadership is honoured, supported and invested in. The role of the church hierarchy is to support and resource the leadership of those congregations rather than blowing in and taking the leadership away from those who know the local context best.

I don't think an approach like that is good for urban ministry though. Urban congregations need missional leadership which challenges them more than a self-led model can allow for.

A little idealistic perhaps What tends to happen is that growing churches like - in our parts - the pentecostalists started in a front room then bought a building and then...then...when the money came in went for a full time clergy.

And ecclesiologically it is inaccurate in an Anglican or catholic context. The clergy ARE part of the local church. They are part of the people. They are merely ordained for different functions

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Soror Magna
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The only thing that church has to offer that one cannot get anywhere else is worship and teaching /study of religion. If someone wants to volunteer, or do charity work, or have a social circle, or hobbies, those are all available in the secular world. Christianity, despite cultural heritage, is no longer a default setting in our society.

To me the real question is why don't people in our society feel the need to worship the Christian God together any more? What would it take to get the average busy person to commit time for praise and thanksgiving and penance and forgiveness? Or to learn more about Christianity? And to want to do it with other like-minded people? To feel strongly enough to commit not just time, but money to it? Of all the myriad ways of worship and teaching and learning, how would someone find the "right" one? How do you know when it's the right one, or is that being too consumerist?

Too late. We live in a consumer society. Think of it as a marketing challenge. What does church have to offer? What's unique about church? What needs does it serve? Whose needs? OliviaG

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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
The only thing that church has to offer that one cannot get anywhere else is worship and teaching /study of religion........

To me the real question is why don't people in our society feel the need to worship the Christian God together any more? What would it take to get the average busy person to commit time for praise and thanksgiving and penance and forgiveness? Or to learn more about Christianity? And to want to do it with other like-minded people? To feel strongly enough to commit not just time, but money to it? ......

What does church have to offer? What's unique about church? What needs does it serve? Whose needs?

The crux of it is that unless people have faith in God they don't want to worship, or to find out more about God, or to meet with fellow believers. They're unlikely to want to search their souls so that they will feel the desire to repent, receive forgiveness and start anew. They're more likely to want an instant fix to patch up any underlying niggling doubts or dissatisfaction with the way they are.

At the risk of stating the obvious, unless Churches can find new ways of bringing people to faith and helping them to grow in it, it will soon become noticeable that the diminishing number of people of faith cannot sustain the existing provision of services to the community, including the buildings.

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
The only thing that church has to offer that one cannot get anywhere else is worship and teaching /study of religion.

I do all those at home, you want study just buy a good book or go one line, sign up for a free on-line class or discussion group for teaching (boy have I learned from the Ship! More than from a lifetime of sermons!), worship is what we do daily in how we live as well as specific prayer/song times at home or with friends.

You want to claim huge gathering at bleary eyed time of the week are somehow essential or even helpful, come up with better -- or better stated -- reasons!

Actually, I love gathering with other Christians, but an environment of staring at the backs of people's heads and go home with no personal contact beyond "good morning" is not a gathering any more than going to a movie is "gathering" with the anonymous people who also happen to be in the theater.

[ 18. June 2012, 15:31: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]

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ProgenitorDope
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Not to be a pessimist, but I have a question: is it even possible to do anything at this point?

I mean, assuming the church(es) are (A) willing and (B) able to implement changes like the ones discussed above (and that's two big assumptions), isn't there a good chance its still too little, too late?

Certainly, I hope not, but it's just that I simply can't see my generation--or especially the one beneath us--even giving the church a chance. I don't know, that's just my own experiences talking. I'll admit I could be wrong.

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Justinian
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I ran the numbers on another thread - and it very definitely looks generational with surprisingly little variation within a generation over time (looking at the 1983 - 2008 timeseries).

Only around 10% of people born after 1970 attend church at least 1/month. It goes up to around 13% for the 50s and 60s, and those evangelised and the backsliders about cancel. But there doesn't seem to be much variation after 1970 in terms of religious attendance. There is, however, a sharp dropoff from earlier decades (I think the Church has been concealing declining proportions with a growing population).

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Schroedinger's cat

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Historically, the church in the UK has been declining since the early 1900s. There was a slight increase soon after WWII, which was one of the most damaging things that could have happened, because it made it look like there was less decline than there was.

This decline has significantly increased in the last 40 years, but this is largely because a certain tipping point was reached, whereby a significant number of parents had then not been taken to church by their parents.

So we have had this decline for a century, and are still not really sure what to do about it. Most of the changes we have made in the last 50 years have been patching, in the hope that we can just keep the thing going until it is someone elses problem.

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Historically, the church in the UK has been declining since the early 1900s...

a certain tipping point was reached, whereby a significant number of parents had then not been taken to church by their parents...

Most of the changes we have made in the last 50 years have been patching, in the hope that we can just keep the thing going until it is someone elses problem.

Is our thinking all wrong?

The church started with 12 men, or 120 in an upper room, or some number a whole lot less than our current numbers. We need to look forward from what we have, not backward.

That may mean ditch the building or anything else holding us back. Early church, for all our arguments, we can agree had no stained glass windows or pipe organs! We need to figure out what is essential and focus our energies on that.

I fear the load of "nice to have" luxuries are distracting our energy and attention to the institution's internal wants. Sort of like when a poor person insists on eating steak -- nice of you can afford it, far from essential to healthy life. To be healthy long term, we gotta focus first on essentials, then add whatever luxuries are genuinely affordable.

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Chamois
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
To be healthy long term, we gotta focus first on essentials, then add whatever luxuries are genuinely affordable.

Yes, but one of the problems is that nobody seems able to agree on what the essentials are.

One person's essential is another person's luxury. And vice versa.

Can you suggest how we could reach a consensus?

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
To be healthy long term, we gotta focus first on essentials, then add whatever luxuries are genuinely affordable.

Yes, but one of the problems is that nobody seems able to agree on what the essentials are.

One person's essential is another person's luxury. And vice versa.

Can you suggest how we could reach a consensus?

I wasn't thinking what are the essential points of theology. But if you simply cannot conceive of valid worship without a pipe organ and professional music director, without vestments laced with real gold, without stained glass windows, what happens when your job moves you to a country where Christianity is illegal, or when your church closes due to lack of clergy and there's not another within 100 miles?

I admit it can be hard to think in terms of basic when we are used to more. I have a homeless friend who says it's unacceptable that the run down house she's borrowed free doesn't have hot water and cable TV. Those are, she believes, essentials. I know they aren't essential because much of the world doesn't have them. (At the moment I don't have either one, but that's a different story.)

One way is to look at places where Christianity is rare or new or in deeply impoverished countries. Whatever they manage to do without and still thrive as a Christian community, is probably unessential.

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Angloid
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I think it was Ken Leech who said that the only things you need to be the church were water, bread, wine and memory.

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Olaf
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In reflective moments, I often wonder if one of the reasons that ecumenical partnerships in US Mainline World have been flourishing is to facilitate the future sharing of space and/or clergy. We don't see a ton of this right now, but in fifty years' time, it might be far more common.
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Chorister:
I'd be reluctant to see the buildings go as they are a focal point in communities, but perhaps a deal could be struck by which the best ones are preserved as museums of art with occasional services rather than as full-time churches.
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As long as the faithful are not expected to maintain them. There's something peculiar depressing about, two things. The first is a poster of a spire shaped thermometer. The second is the people of God serving a building rather than the building serving the people of God.


Oh God yes. Assuming current trends continue, thousands of buildings have to go. In thirty years the nature of Christian community and ministry outside urban areas will have changed completely in the UK. This will be particularly painful for the C of E. I have a theory that one reason for evangelical success over the past fifty years is that they have already to some extent undergone the necessary consolidation, ironically helped by their marginalisation in the mid-20th century.
Is there any possibility of sharing the space? You know, local evangelical churches meeting in the CoE building, saving $$ on building/buying/renting/maintaining their own space and helping to underwrite the costs of maintaining a beautiful and historic church building?

The Methodist church in which I grew up allowed a Korean congregation to come in and have services Sunday afternoons; eventually they bought the church and the few folks who still attended services had to drive another couple of miles to the next Methodist church.

My own anglican-flavored episcopal church mostly loses people as they move away (no work, little opportunity, tired of banging head against wall, etc.) but they are generally replaced by younger folks in their mid-20s to mid-30s, so it's an interesting, gradual change.

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Sir Pellinore
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Those who don't see "the Church" as a discrete church, e.g. St Mumbles-of-the-Crossways, but as something else, i.e. a worshipping body of believers are quite correct IMO.

Christianity in the West is going through a testing time. What is it really about? A social club or a place you might just be transformed? I'd plump for the latter. But that's the difficult option.

Much of what we have now: discrete "plant"; paid clerics etc. was not there in the Early Church. The successful Churches will realise this.

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Well...

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Chorister

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quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
Is there any possibility of sharing the space?

I can think of two communities only a few miles from me where they have already done this: one where the CofE congregation now meet in the Methodist church, and one where the Methodists now meet in the CofE church. From listening to people I know from both places, the arrangement seems to work well. I guess any problems would arise from deciding how many joint services to hold, and how many separate ones.

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Zacchaeus
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I do know of two such church shares. They work but there is a lot of tension in one of them as they are very different churchmanship, (for want of a better word)

There is serious negotiations needed, over many things all the time, and a lot of tongue biting at times.

It reuires a lot of will and give and take to make it work.

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
...My own anglican-flavored episcopal church ...

You must belong to some new denomination then. I was always under the impression that the Episcopal Church was a full member of the Anglican Communion.
[Killing me]

Seriously, I can see my former Anglican church going to the Mar Thoma Church (also a member of the Communion) the same way your former Methodist church went to the Koreans.

I think, in Australia, the number of primarily Anglo-Saxon churches, of whatever flavour, are going to decrease if they wish, consciously or subconsciously, to preserve their primarily ethnic membership. The Catholics realised this years ago and are now sourcing clergy from the same areas as the new immigrants.

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Well...

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SvitlanaV2
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One of the reasons why I'm reluctant to return to my former denomination is that by the time I reach the age where I might need pastoral support (i.e. in about 30 years' time), most of those churches in any area where I'll be able to afford to live will have closed. I can't see any other future for them. It's not just the stats I've read, but my own eyes tell me that the numbers of people coming up behind me are far too few to sustain the denomination in certain areas, although it might persist in some form elsewhere.

Having hit middle age, and being single, I look at the elderly members of our churches, and note how they expect the church to support them pastorally, in gratitude for all the hard work, commitment and money they've given over the years. But when I reach that age, who's going to be around to support me? Unless there's a great revival around the corner (and most churches don't particularly seem to be thirsting after that) I can't see who'll be there to do it.

We may have to accept a more transitory involvement with our churches as the rate of closure speeds up. What will that mean? From what I've read, church closure tends to work in favour of overall decline. Maybe there's some way to overcome this, but I haven't heard of it. Maybe we need to develop a 'theology of church closure' that makes churchgoers less reliant on tradition, sameness, continuity. But that goes against the grain for my denomination, and perhaps for many others too.

Sorry if all this seems selfish, but these thoughts have been at the back of my mind recently, and they seem relevant to this thread.

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Schroedinger's cat

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
From what I've read, church closure tends to work in favour of overall decline.

Which is what we have seen over the last 30-40 years, and is just speeding up. The churches have not been able (willing/whatever) to change so far, and there is (as you say) no real indication that this is changing.

What is more, the larger churches - those who will last longest in the decline - tend to be the more extreme ones. Which will not help the moderates at all.

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Chorister

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It seems to me that churches have changed a lot in the last 30 - 40 years. Many of them even have change-itis, where they keep chopping and changing without even allowing any changes to bed down to see if they have any effect. And what do the grateful parishioners do, when faced with all this change? Groan, and mumble, and scarper off to the nearest cathedral (or simply stay in bed).

So it's not good enough to say that numbers will go up again if churches change.

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Curiosity killed ...

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Somewhere on the Ship, I've seen quoted that the demographics of churches remain similar - so for the last 30 years it's seemed as if churches will die out when the current congregation dies out, but the next congregation has come along.

I'm not sure how the same sex marriage scandal in the CofE is going to play out. I'd fallen out of church for various reasons, which I've done before, taken a break and gone back, but I really can't see any reason to go back to the Church of England now, and there's nowhere else I'd want to go back to.

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Chorister

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One of the reasons I really like the U3A is that people don't spend all their time moaning that there are no young people and that, if they don't recruit them, the organisation will die out.

The Ship, not to mention other parts of life, is full of examples of people who don't appreciate more established forms of church until they have lived a while first.

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SvitlanaV2
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What I've read is that people sometimes return to the church (or to more traditional forms of church) when they get older. But you can only return somewhere if you were there previously. The vast majority of middle aged and younger people in the country now were never part of the church in their childhood, so it's not a case of waiting for them to 'come home'. Some research suggests that old people don't naturally gravitate to the church unless it was a part of their youth.

Our older churchgoers remember when Sunday Schools and Boys' Brigades attracted large numbers of young people, but there's been a huge contraction before and during my lifetime.

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I look at the elderly members of our churches, and note how they expect the church to support them pastorally, in gratitude for all the hard work, commitment and money they've given over the years. But when I reach that age, who's going to be around to support me?

We may have to accept a more transitory involvement with our churches as the rate of closure speeds up. What will that mean?

One thing transitory involvement means (speaking as one who has moved a lot, tends to be in a church a few years until the next move) is no one knows about your years of service and financial contribution because you did it elsewhere. I arrived in this town too sick to do anything, if I'd been teaching Bible study, leading VBS, forming prayer groups, giving up to 20% of my income here for a couple decades (instead of elsewhere), you bet the church would have rallied around to help. But a needy or just no longer able to contribute newcomer is ignored or barely tolerated. I see it all the time with retires moving to town.

I've already been told no one will visit me in my nursing home, "we visit our long time members." (Methodist church.) (Good reason to be Episcopal at the end, they'll come bring the bread and wine. For someone with no family that may be the only hope of an occasional visitor. Not that anyone ever brought it to my Mom!)

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:


I've already been told no one will visit me in my nursing home, "we visit our long time members." (Methodist church.)

If there is one thing more than anything that gets up my nose it's the attitude that 'Church' = 'our little congregation'. What does baptism mean for God's sake?

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SvitlanaV2
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Belle Ringer

Your post above highlights the importance of the pastoral visitor, a post which still exists in the British Methodist Church.

Once an individual formally becomes a member of a particular Methodist congregation they should be allocated a pastoral visitor, whose job it is to keep in contact with them, especially if they're ill, or have other problems. Visting a sick person shouldn't depend on whether or not they're one of the church favourites, or the length of time they've been at the church!

(I must admit, though, that I was never aware of who my formal pastoral visitor was! This may be because, as a healthy younger person who was always in church anyway, I didn't seem to be in pastoral need. But there were older church members who took an interest in me and kept abreast of how I was getting on.)

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Belle Ringer

Your post above highlights the importance of the pastoral visitor, a post which still exists in the British Methodist Church.

Once an individual formally becomes a member of a particular Methodist congregation they should be allocated a pastoral visitor, whose job it is to keep in contact with them, especially if they're ill, or have other problems.

Thanks, I'll ask Google about that position and learn more. Churches tend to be vaguely aware of the problem but focused on programs rather than individuals, and dread "starting another program, who's going to do the work?" But I've heard of alternative methods, like a "buddy system, each church household is responsible to know where two other households are, if they aren't in church Sunday. Not "why weren't you in church?" but "noticed you missing, just checking if there's any problem, anything you need, or are you OK." So no one goes missing for a week without being contacted.

Encourages a bit of making personal contacts with another church member.

Wouldn't even have to be church attendance based, just contact each other once a week. ESPECIALLY for live alones, now 27% of USA households, and even more especially for newcomer singles who have no friends yet, someone specific to call "I'm sick, can you pick up some money from me and bring me some groceries" can be life-saving.

Yes, some people would opt out, you don't force contact on people.

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SvitlanaV2
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Belle Ringer

Yes, I have to say that although I often grumble about British Methodism, the system of pastoral care seems to work fairly well.

There are problems, of course. Usually, it's a basic lack of pastoral visitors, or pastoral visitors who are themselves quite frail and elderly. However, sometimes a pastoral visitor just can't seem to get on with a particular individual on their list, and because the ministers find it hard to deal with conflict, the disharmony can rumble on and on without resolution. (Two of the people I got on with best in my church just didn't seem to like each other very much, and unfortunately, one was pastoral visitor to the other! The 'visitee' should have been transferred to another pastoral visitor, but this never happened.) Pastoral visitors need to be sensitive to how much contact is acceptable to each person on their list, and what kind of contact. (An occasional phonecall may be sufficient). Obviously, some are better at judging this than others.

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Angloid
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I can see why Methodists were called Methodists. It's a great system and very organised. But when I tried to get a (much less organised) scheme set up in my Anglican parish I was promptly put in my place. 'We do look after one another, and we don't need you, Vicar, to make sure that we are doing that.' Which is all very well but doesn't necessarily help the lonely person who no-one really knows or cares about.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Lone voice: I'm not!

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Zacchaeus
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I can see why Methodists were called Methodists. It's a great system and very organised. But when I tried to get a (much less organised) scheme set up in my Anglican parish I was promptly put in my place. 'We do look after one another, and we don't need you, Vicar, to make sure that we are doing that.' Which is all very well but doesn't necessarily help the lonely person who no-one really knows or cares about.

I think I've met that church [Biased] Seriously I've known a church where if you were one of the 'in' people you were looked after, if you weren't then you fell through the cracks. But they were still convinced that they were a loving caring church.
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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
I've known a church where if you were one of the 'in' people you were looked after, if you weren't then you fell through the cracks. But they were still convinced that they were a loving caring church.

*A* church? You've known only one church like that? Ha, just about everyone I know says their church is like that. (Except the in-group folks insist their church in NOT AT ALL like that!)

Which suggests one needs a way to get word to ALL the church about the idea, find out who is interested. Not let the in-group kill the idea by their unawareness of the need in others. A "buddy system" could be a way to help out-group members identify each other and start building friendships? Outgroup people are often lonely, unable to identify who are the other outgroupers, since everyone in church is equally unfamiliar to them.

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
...If there is one thing more than anything that gets up my nose it's the attitude that 'Church' = 'our little congregation'...

We have many of those around here. "Pastoral care" ="my best friend(s)".

They seem to be dying out.
[Votive]

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Well...

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I can see why Methodists were called Methodists. It's a great system and very organised. But when I tried to get a (much less organised) scheme set up in my Anglican parish I was promptly put in my place. 'We do look after one another, and we don't need you, Vicar, to make sure that we are doing that.' Which is all very well but doesn't necessarily help the lonely person who no-one really knows or cares about.

I think I've met that church [Biased] Seriously I've known a church where if you were one of the 'in' people you were looked after, if you weren't then you fell through the cracks. But they were still convinced that they were a loving caring church.
To be fair to the people I referred to, they did much more than just care for the 'in group'. They did care for all sorts of people many of whom had no connection to 'church'. But there were gaps which some sort of system might have helped bridge.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
To be fair to the people I referred to, they did much more than just care for the 'in group'. They did care for all sorts of people many of whom had no connection to 'church'. But there were gaps which some sort of system might have helped bridge.

Understood. No one means "we don't help anyone but us." But they can be blind to the existence of some others in their midst. Probably true of us all. Certain people we just don't know how to start a conversation with so we don't really see them, or so busy catching up with friend we don't have time to get to know newcomers.
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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Seriously I've known a church where if you were one of the 'in' people you were looked after, if you weren't then you fell through the cracks. But they were still convinced that they were a loving caring church.

All too common in my experience. And disastrous for newcomers.
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Zacchaeus
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Seriously I've known a church where if you were one of the 'in' people you were looked after, if you weren't then you fell through the cracks. But they were still convinced that they were a loving caring church.

All too common in my experience. And disastrous for newcomers.
Trouble is as said above it is not a deliberate policy. The 'in' people were unaware of what they were doing, and when asked about pastoral visiting or more formal ways of looking after people, they would insist that they didn't need it because they were doing it anyway.
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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
One of the reasons why I'm reluctant to return to my former denomination is that by the time I reach the age where I might need pastoral support (i.e. in about 30 years' time), most of those churches in any area where I'll be able to afford to live will have closed. I can't see any other future for them. It's not just the stats I've read, but my own eyes tell me that the numbers of people coming up behind me are far too few to sustain the denomination in certain areas, although it might persist in some form elsewhere.

Having hit middle age, and being single, I look at the elderly members of our churches, and note how they expect the church to support them pastorally, in gratitude for all the hard work, commitment and money they've given over the years. But when I reach that age, who's going to be around to support me? Unless there's a great revival around the corner (and most churches don't particularly seem to be thirsting after that) I can't see who'll be there to do it.

...

I'm not sure about the UK, but this article on religious affiliation in Australia, based on data from our recent census, would seem to me to show that the churches here which are mainly Anglo-Saxon in make up are in decline.
http://www.eurekastreet.com.au/article.aspx?aeid=31958

My recent Anglican parish in Brisbane was a prime example of what SvitlanaV2 was talking about.

I think this needs to take us back to the question of what Christianity and the individual churches are for. Are they basically support groups for regular attendees or is there a deeper purpose? If the answer is "basically support groups" then I fear there is no future for them.

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Well...

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Chorister

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I'm not too sure about the wisdom of it, but there are discussions amongst the more optimistic of our congregation about changing the church to suit the needs of those 50 years ahead. To my mind, it would be an expensive mistake should they get it wrong, as how can we know what people in 50 years' time would want? And if we can't afford to repair the roof properly, there's not much point spending loads of money on fancy furnishings. Perhaps we should make sure now that the church is waterproof and then, in 50 years' time if there is still a keen, active congregation with plenty of money, they could decide which pretty fabric they want on their chairs, futons or sofas, then.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Augustine the Aleut
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Remember (possible urban legend warning) Khrushchev's challenge to Metropolitan Nikodim of Leningrad, as to what the Orthodox would do when that generation of aged grannies went. Nikodim replied that they would be replaced by another generation of aged grannies.

As others have noticed, many mainline churches have been affected by demographic changes-- my point of some years ago that Canadian Anglicanism was an ethnic chaplaincy was not well-received at the time. One local cleric's efforts at bringing in African and West Indian congregants was viewed with mirth and curiosity for many years-- the mockers are now muttering how unfortunate it was that this was not done with more energy in the twenty years since. Meanwhile, dioceses continue merrily triaging out churches in inner city and working-class areas to make funding room to work with middle-class suburban types with whom, perhaps, they are personally more comfortable (also known as Freeing Up Resources for Mission).

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Chorister

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My sister-in-law always referred to her church as 'A little old lady Factory'. It's still going, 30 years later, with just as many recycled little old ladies.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Chorister

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My sister-in-law always referred to her church as 'A little old lady Factory'. It's still going, 30 years later, with just as many recycled little old ladies.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Ender's Shadow
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Meanwhile, dioceses continue merrily triaging out churches in inner city and working-class areas to make funding room to work with middle-class suburban types with whom, perhaps, they are personally more comfortable (also known as Freeing Up Resources for Mission).

Hmm - let's look at the mess that the CofE is in in South Manchester. About 35 years ago there were two decent sized congregations - the one meeting in an old Anglican church, the other, an independent Evangelical church, in a 19th century building. In the next 10 years the Anglican congregation, having been given control of a second building and being told by the diocese: "do something with this, or we'll close it", saw growth to the point where the new, young congregation was filling that building to the point where it was bursting at the seams. In the meantime the Evangelicals had grown a bit, but not much.

Then the Anglicans dropped the ball. Rather than receiving 'Resources for Mission', it was left with the same level of clergy, or even less. It has continued to be a reasonably lively church - but has failed to build on the growth that it saw.

Down the road, the Evangelicals have been growing and growing. They've entirely outgrown their building and meet in a cinema, and now have a second congregration that meets in a night club. A break away Anglican group has developed (NOT from this congregation) and have now outgrown the building they're renting. Another independent evangelical mob, having thrown in their lot with New Frontiers, has also outgrown its building.

So instead of the CofE reaping this growth, others have. That's what happens when 'triage' isn't done - instead bishops insist on salami tactics (the most recently appointed clergy person is a half time diocescan officer, so they've CUT the staff they are providing to the only church in the deanery with a record of growth). And then they are surprised when we have no confidence in the hierarchy, and refuse to pay our quota.

So what is the alternative? Parishes are put on a minimal 'care and maintenance' basis; with almost no clergy cover. Those clergy posts are allocated to the churches where growth IS happening. The clergy then move into those almost defunct parishes with a substantial number from the growing parish who live in roughly the right area. The existing congregation is perhaps offered a continuation of their style of services, but another model is offered based on what has been seen to work at the growing parish. And then planted parish gets to the point where it can plant itself. This is basically the Holy Trinity Brompton model in London, and has worked well there. There's no good reason for it not to be effective in other big cities - but our bishops are too interested in 'keeping the show on the road', playing silly games over the consecration of women, and confusing the population over the gay issue. But hey - they'll be gone soon, receiving a pension, safe in the knowledge that they didn't close many churches.

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Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
...

As others have noticed, many mainline churches have been affected by demographic changes-- my point of some years ago that Canadian Anglicanism was an ethnic chaplaincy was not well-received at the time. One local cleric's efforts at bringing in African and West Indian congregants was viewed with mirth and curiosity for many years-- the mockers are now muttering how unfortunate it was that this was not done with more energy in the twenty years since. Meanwhile, dioceses continue merrily triaging out churches in inner city and working-class areas to make funding room to work with middle-class suburban types with whom, perhaps, they are personally more comfortable (also known as Freeing Up Resources for Mission).

Pierre Berton had a similar vision in his 1965 book "The Comfortable Pew". I think he was similarly derided.

I share your opinion as regards the survival of Anglicanism in Brisbane and environs, if it fails to develop its, quite literally, dying WASP base. A base that is committed to a sort of "eternal 1950s pre-revocation of White Australia" endless morning tea.

I am staggered, repeat, staggered by the incredible religious ignorance and almost total loss of any concept of deep, transforming spirituality in my former parish. It came to a crisis in Lent, when, instead of concentrating on "the message"; study; prayer and fasting we had a series of "fun events" for the terminally bored or vague hangers on who would come.

I think the suburban outreach is an attempt to keep the demographic alive. We are not so much seeing an "ethnic chaplaincy" but a laager. What lies behind the "laager mentality" is what is frightening. The gormless, faux nice, well remunerated (A$90,000 p.a. package) clerics turned out by the local theological college don't seem to have the spine, nor the time, as they are so busy caring for their paying customers, to do any effective missionary work.

Genuine Christianity probably needs replanting in many parts of Australia. I remember, over 40 years ago, a saintly old Irish Jesuit, telling us he foresaw, in 40 years time, Roman Catholicism being replanted in this country by missionary priests from Japan. He was wrong in one aspect: they're from India; the Philipines and Africa. Catholics don't pay what the Anglicans do: hence the decline in local vocations, which mainly come from within the non-Irish descended new immigrant groups, where being a priest is still respected, these days.

It says a lot about contemporary Australia and contemporary Australians that it has come to this.

I think one of the things about the babushkas (grandmothers) in Soviet Russia is that they not only came to church but they engendered genuine belief in their grandchildren during the dreadful times of persecution. Somehow, assisted by the unbelievably heroic sacrifices of the martyrs: 600 bishops; 40,000 priests and 120,000 monks and nuns killed under Stalin, they kept the Faith alive.

Contemporary Western Christianity seems, to me, to be in a sort of "Fisher King predicament": dreadfully wounded and impotent hovering between life and death. I think the problem with it, or more specifically, its pew warmers is that they have no real religious life or faith: it is a form of being babysat before the lights are individually extinguished. What passes for "pastoral care" just temporarily alleviates the dreadful loneliness many feel without touching the root cause.

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Well...

Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Augustine the Aleut
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To respond to Ender's Shadow, but with specifics for illustration's sake. In our case, triage is simply a fancy word for dropping the ball. A working class inner suburb (S Paul's Overbrook, once S Lucy's Eastview) was sold off to the 7Days about 20 years ago, just as a posse of about 3,000 Haitians (many of whom were unaffiliated Xns, and a good number Episcopalian-- remember that the largest TEC diocese is Haiti) and 2,000 unchurched Central Americans moved in-- at that time there was no Spanish-language RC church in Ottawa. Mission, of course, would have needed someone who could operate in other languages and would have had to spend much energy on handling immigrant settlement and dislocation challenges.

Shortly afterward, S Peter's Merivale went under the hammer even though 600 new housing units were going up immediately to its south. Even if we were only looking at census Anglicans, another 60 names would have doubled the parish membership. Both parishes were (albeit barely) paying their way.

If the diocese had only taken resources expended in priority-setting workshops, mission-statement development, and power-point presentation training... And I will not even touch the topic of the tens and tens of thousands of disenchanted and unchurched francophones we have quietly ignored.

Recently, parishes have been asked to start looking at their demographics but all I can do is shake my head at decades of lost opportunities on account of our perplexed navel gazing. Others, of course, will have their own interpretation.

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
...

If the diocese had only taken resources expended in priority-setting workshops, mission-statement development, and power-point presentation training...

Recently, parishes have been asked to start looking at their demographics but all I can do is shake my head at decades of lost opportunities on account of our perplexed navel gazing...

Well, it's the rather blinkered viewpoint of those within the current (failing) system.

Perhaps (my viewpoint) is that the system, as it currently exists, no longer works effectively.

I think change, real change, may only come when the current system and those who run it crashes. Then there might be a real change.

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Well...

Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged



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