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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Saved from what (or who?)
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Well I know Swedenborgianism isn't Trinitarian in the normally accepted sense, but I can't help but think you are reading that background into Freddy's post.
Thank you JJ. Yes, I don't see what my spiritual physics has to do with the New Church view of the Trinity. Jesus Christ is the one only God of heaven and earth, and Father, Son and Holy Spirit are within Him in the same sense that every person's soul, body, and actions make one person. If anything this is more personal not less.
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
I do think that the ontological nature of sin is intimately related to death, and therefore anti-personal. Furthermore, the end effect of sin is a wasting away of personhood, and ultimately, eternal death, however we understand that. I do not think this requires any intervention from God to bring this about. We would not die eternally because God curses us, rather we would die eternally if God does not sustain us. I don't see that as being all that different to what Freddy wrote, whatever other theological differences we might have.
Yes, I agree with this way of looking at it.
It's not that God is not intimately involved and present with everything that happens with every person. But His actions are continually about rescuing us from the harm caused by evil and drawing us toward Him. All "punishment" and unhappiness is the effect of whatever distances us from Him.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Surprised at me, Martin?
Why, what have I done or said to surprise you?
I wasn't agreeing with Freddy necessarily, just saying that he wasn't 'ignoring' the references to God being capable of anger but putting a different slant on them to the way that Mudfrog would understand these things. What's so surprising about that?
It would be like saying that Mousethief or Fr Gregory aren't overlooking references to predestination, say, in the Bible, but talking a different stance on these things to the way that a Protestant, or more specifically, a Calvinist, would.
I wasn't saying any more than that.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
In what way am I allegedly being disingenuous?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Gamaliel, my dear friend I've yet to play chess, paintballing and the violin with (eternity, OK?), the trouble is I DO agree with Freddy, cultic heterodoxarian (unless one can noun heterodox?) nay heretic that he is.
I can't find it on this thread, but I'm sure it was you, and my profuse apologies if not, BUT in all your inclusive, beguiling Orthodoxy I thought you said something like God didn't create people to damn or damned in advance but that He knew who would be damned.
As He can't possibly know that it's going to rain tomorrow without proliferating entities a tad, how does He know that even Satan himself is reprobate ? As Satan has not yet seen the outworking of mercy in the Resurrection, has not yet seen one hundred billion monkeys obtain the edict of grace ?
And if you didn't, someone did, but where ?! Hmmm ? HMMM ?
It can't have been Mudfrog or Johnny S who both preach it like Wesley but believe it like Calvin, talking of whom KEN??!
Explain!
Not you Gamaliel, Ken, and you Gamaliel!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Martin, what the heck are you talking about?
Your posting style has a certain charm, but I'm damned ( ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ) if I can make head nor tail of it at times ...
And by the way, I'm fairly Orthophile but not Orthodox ... not with a big O anyway ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Mutter, mumble. Lovely word Orthophile. Sorry. Oh, er, well, er, somebody did. Somebody on a thread just like this one and just like you. Said that.
That God knows who's damned.
And Mudfrog, my brother (and therefore Johnny S), what proportion of humanity is damned ? What TYPES of people ? Who has accountably heard THE gospel and rejected it ? I can't think of even a TYPE bar one, like Priscilla.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It might have been me, it might not have been. It's difficult to tell what I'm supposed to have said.
Your prose style sounds like James Joyce meets Dylan Thomas meets a Norwegian tourist lost in central London and using a Norwegian-English phrasebook that has been translated from the Portuguese ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I know you've addressed your question to Mudfrog (and therefore Johnny S), Martin, but my somewhat Orthophile answer to your question 'what proportion of humanity will be damned' is ...
I really have no idea. I am not God.
And I think a small c-calvinist answer to that question would run along similar lines, but perhaps from a different direction ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Tusen takk - Obrigado
Ah HAH! But you know God. You FEEL God. You are no damnationist, not even a closet one. So when you say that you are not God and it ain't your call, yeah we can all assent to that small c-calvinism and know it's safe, that we can trust God to be perfect in His [process of and final] judgement, in Sovereignty as sovereign effectual love, because we don't know who ANY MORE THAN HE CAN.
That's me by the way. The because.
We are ALL saved from our heresies AKA theologies.
[ 24. June 2012, 13:03: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
It can't have been Mudfrog or Johnny S who both preach it like Wesley but believe it like Calvin... [/QB]
I've heard this sentiment before but I have no idea what it means!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
It can't have been Mudfrog or Johnny S who both preach it like Wesley but believe it like Calvin... [/QB]
I've heard this sentiment before but I have no idea what it means!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Mutter, mumble. Lovely word Orthophile. Sorry. Oh, er, well, er, somebody did. Somebody on a thread just like this one and just like you. Said that.
That God knows who's damned.
And Mudfrog, my brother (and therefore Johnny S), what proportion of humanity is damned ? What TYPES of people ? Who has accountably heard THE gospel and rejected it ? I can't think of even a TYPE bar one, like Priscilla.
The truth is that we are all 'damned' as you put it. The wages of sin is death and there is none righteous, no not one. Jesus said those who don't believe are condemned already.
BUT atonement is made for the world and is appropriated by those who believe, as I have said.
The grey areas are judged by God in his mercy, grace and compassion.
It's not my call ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Martin - I don't know whether I am a damnationist or not - a closet one or otherwise.
I'm more than happy to leave that one to Almighty God.
Sure, I would have difficulties with a full-on universalism ... people like Hitler, Stalin, child-rapists and murderers etc etc ... but then, 'all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God' ...
I mightn't be as full-on as Mudfrog, though, in his 'we're all doomed unless we repent' stance - although I can understand that position.
I tend to find a completely universalist position as untenable as I find a double-predestinarian one.
But it ain't my call ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Hmmmm. When's the mental age of responsibility, of peccability ? How grey an area is that ?
How saved are the saved and how damned are the damned ?
All are forensically damned in Adam and then damned for their own sins. So who isn't included in the blood of Christ ?
So a good Baluchi Muslim who burns his daughter alive for being raped to restore his honour isn't damned for that ? He's to be commended and rewared surely ?
And good Christian Ukrainian guards at Auschwitz who did their duty and buried the Jews in the sky, they're OK ?
But the Jew smoke burns twice ?
What do you THINK ?
Are Sodom and Gomarrah damned ?
It's none of our business ? Or shouldn't we KNOW ? Twice ?
We who are oh so saved ? On the basis of what we say we believe ?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And Mudfrog, my brother (and therefore Johnny S), what proportion of humanity is damned ?
17.67%
(I'm not sure if you round up or down though.)
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Nice one, I smiled out loud. Snorted actually.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Nice one, I smiled out loud. Snorted actually.
I have no trouble explaining that God knows who is damned before they are even born.
It doesn't affect human freedom one wit.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
The key is that "damned" doesn't mean what you think it means.
The proof is that, assuming He is not only good but also omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, He would not have set something in motion that would fail to get the results He desires.
I'm sure that most of us understand that uncertainty only applies to small samples. Once the samples are large ones the results are always predictable within certain limits.
But the fact that God knows that my behavior is likely to vary from the norm doesn't bother me in the least. I take comfort in the fact that I don't know this, and that since He is a good God the overall project (that is, creation) is sure to turn out well.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
NT Wright's new book says God is saving creation (including people).
As does Romans 8
Why do we have to wait until a theologian says it before we believe it?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
I believed that people were part of creation before Wright told me.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
As ever Freddy, I have to agree ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Apart from any hint that God knows because He's seen the indeterminate, unhappened future from 'outside'. Outside Himself.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
I believed that people were part of creation before Wright told me.
HERETIC!!!!
--Tom Clune
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This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
NT Wright's new book says God is saving creation (including people).
As does Romans 8
Kinda.
Not entirely sure what Paul is on about there. Sounds somewhat Martinesque. (Tho Martin is often easier to understand).
Wright seems to say we are saved from decay and corruption.
Very much inline with his "resurrection on earth in the age to come" routine.
Tho one wonders why God created a decayed and corrupted world in the first place ......
Oh no wait...WE somehow did that right? Completely changed the ontological nature of all of creation ( and ourselves ) by eating that blasted bit of fruit.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ 26. June 2012, 13:56: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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NJA
Shipmate
# 13022
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Posted
"Saved" means delivered. In the Old testament they were delivered from oppressive situations. In the New Testament people are delivered from a mortal, unfulfilling existance, without God, to the opposite.
This is achieved by us receiving God's Spirit, His Life:
"he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ" (Titus 3:5-6)
- as detailed in scripture - Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-46, John 3:8.
Posts: 1283 | From: near London | Registered: Sep 2007
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NJA
Shipmate
# 13022
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Posted
"Saved" means delivered. In the Old testament they were delivered from oppressive situations. In the New Testament people are delivered from a mortal, unfulfilling existance, without God, to the opposite.
This is achieved by us receiving God's Spirit, His Life:
"he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ" (Titus 3:5-6)
- as detailed in scripture - Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-46, John 3:8.
Posts: 1283 | From: near London | Registered: Sep 2007
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