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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Goodbye England's rose, may you ever grow in our hearts
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
It was a very strange time, and the song was mandated as The Song For Diana. It was quite a nice song beforehand, but the rework was not very good. However, as the Official Di Is Dead Song it had to be bought.
EJ would have done better, IMO, to have done "Song for Guy", which a) is a far better song, and one of his best and b) has very good words at the end - as most of it is an instrumental - when he sings "Life, is a temporary thing".
In general, when you look at some of the songs that have sold well, there is not always a correlation between the sales and the quality of the song. I mean "Shaddupayerface" sold well. Need I say any more?
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Having the children walk behind their mother's coffin in front of millions was quasi-abusive frankly.
The story in the American press was that this was what William wanted to do, that he had quite a row with his father because it was thought unseemly for royals to walk. In the end, Charles relented and Phillip agreed to walk with them so that all the men of the family would be together. At least that's the version we heard.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
I felt the public putting their emotional needs above those of the immediate family, especially the children, was unpleasant and thoughtless. Having the children walk behind their mother's coffin in front of millions was quasi-abusive frankly.
Isn't that what families usually do at funerals? I appreciate the point you're making about 'in front of millions' - but it's perfectly normal funeral practice, and usually a very important element for the mourners themselves that they walk with their deceased loved one. I presume the children would not have been compelled to do anything they weren't comfortable with, and they looked, under the circumstances, totally okay with it. I think it was right that did so, if that was what they wanted for themselves.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ondergard
Shipmate
# 9324
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Posted
The night/day Diana died, my godson was being baptised in London, and we had to be up very early in Northamptonshire to get there on time.
My wife's sister was very ill at the time (she actually died a few months later) and that morning I jumped out of bed and straight into the shower. My wife burst into the shower room crying her eyes out, and saying "I don't believe it, she's died, she's died!"
I got out of the shower and said, "Who? Who's died?"
She responded, "Diana, the Princess of Wales!"
My immediate response, my gut response, and a response which was modified not a whit in the next few weeks was to say, "For fuck's sake! I thought it was someone important!"
That morning, I just got back into the shower and carried on getting ready for the important event of that day, standing Godfather to one of friend's sons.
The rest of the event just got resolutely switched off on radio and television as soon as the name was invoked.
I spent the day of the funeral on a splendidly empty golf course.
I could not then, and cannot now, understand the ridiculous hysteria. It was then and it is now totally ridiculous and obnoxious.
A young mother died in tragic circumstances because she failed to do up her seat belt and her paramour's driver was drunk. How sad. Now move on, it's none of our business.
Posts: 276 | From: Essex | Registered: Apr 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You speak for yourself. YOU move on.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I could never understand the obsession with Diana. To me she was a silly girl who had entered into an unsuitable marriage. She was just as culpable as Charles for all that transpired.
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Really ? His adultery ? His altogether shabby treatment of her ? She only had herself to blame eh ? So do you.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I am afraid my initial reaction was somewhat along the lines of "that's going to fuck up the cricket coverage." My sympathy level for Diana was about zero, had been for months, and Charles was not doing any better. The wave of hysteria that followed her death left me with a slight but immoveable feeling of disgust.
Elson John's song was about right, though, my whole family reacted to it by saying either 'turn that Crap off' or making fake retching noises.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by bib
quote:
To me she was a silly girl who had entered into an unsuitable marriage. She was just as culpable as Charles for all that transpired.
She was only a teenager when she got engaged, and only days past her twentieth birthday when she was married. William was born prior to her 21st birthday. Charles was 32 at the time of the engagement and marriage. The marriage may have been unsuitable, but to criticise a teenager for being silly, when surrounded by older and, one would hope, wiser people seems harsh.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I think she may have been a silly girl but perhaps a better marriage might have helped her make something better of herself, instead of turning into a silly/ screwed-up (delete according to your degree of sympathy) woman. I should think that by the end it must have been a wretched business for all concerned.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I could never understand the obsession with Diana. To me she was a silly girl who had entered into an unsuitable marriage. She was just as culpable as Charles for all that transpired.
Neither can be held responsible for the match. It was an arranged marriage. The heir had to have kin, and the search for the right kind of mildly blue-blooded virgin was getting nowhere. Diana ticked most of the boxes, including the important ones, and they were railroaded into it.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
I wonder if there's any crossover between people who didn't feel affected much and people who are not at all royalist and think that having a royal family is a bad ideal.
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I wouldn't call the marriage "arranged," simply because Prince Charles was being pressured to marry. He had freedom of choice and Diana herself could easily have backed away as many young women before her had done. Charles was actually dating her sister Sarah when Diana began going along to the group activities, after which he became interested in Diana. Throughout the courtship Diana expressed a love of the country and a passion for outdoor sports (not), so Charles had every reason to believe that they had shared interests.
I'm sure Diana wasn't the first eagar-to-please girl to pretend to care about her dates's interests and Charles wouldn't be the first man to become so focused on a pretty face that he didn't notice that there wasn't much behind it. (Diana tried and failed twice at her "O" levels.) I think they weren't well suited at all but I don't put all the blame on Charles simply because he was older. Not for nothing did one of Diana's teachers send home a note saying that Diana was, "The most manipulative girl I've ever known."
By the time Diana had had love affairs with James Hewitt and a few other men and Charles had resumed relations with Camilla they had learned that they had nothing at all in common.
What's too bad is that they couldn't have arranged a quiet divorce, concluding with a formal announcement to the press, but Diana herself made that impossible by telling her own side of things to Andrew Morton, meant for publication in the Times. It was at that time that I became firmly, "On Charles side." Not only was it against decent form to air one's dirty laundry in public that way but she knew Charles was not in a position where he could defend himself.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
I wonder if there's any crossover between people who didn't feel affected much and people who are not at all royalist and think that having a royal family is a bad ideal.
I take the Samuelian position myself ![[Biased]](wink.gif) and believe that I did so then as well. I think though that Diana was seen as a victim of the royal family and therefore I sympathised with her. Like with Fergie, she was seen as proof of the fucked-upness of the royal family and the monarchy per se.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
sheeple
Like, really, Marv?
I mean, really?
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
I wonder if there's any crossover between people who didn't feel affected much and people who are not at all royalist and think that having a royal family is a bad ideal.
I take the Samuelian position myself and believe that I did so then as well. I think though that Diana was seen as a victim of the royal family and therefore I sympathised with her. Like with Fergie, she was seen as proof of the fucked-upness of the royal family and the monarchy per se.
I'm just the opposite. I do love the Royal family and see Diana as someone who rebuffed all their attempts to help her and liked to enjoy the perks of being Princess of Wales without requiring much of herself in return. Example: Enjoying all the tax paid for jewels, clothing and cars, while failing to buy British.
My royalist feelings back Princess Anne who works hard for over 200 charities in a capacity that caused one charity head to remark that she would take one Anne over twenty Dianas any day.
While Diana was part of the family, both the Queen and Anne worked about three times the hours that Diana did but Diana won the "hearts of the people," and the title of "The Caring Princess," because she had the media savvy to call the press before each hospital visit and to pose charmingly for their cameras. Of course being so much prettier than Anne didn't hurt.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
But this is all so literalist. I think that people responded to a fairy-story, with an abandoned princess, a ruined goddess, a dying victim of cruel Ugly Relatives, and so on.
Myth.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But this is all so literalist. I think that people responded to a fairy-story, with an abandoned princess, a ruined goddess, a dying victim of cruel Ugly Relatives, and so on.
Myth.
I think this is an exceptionally good point. People who did not really know what a fairy tale was suddenly grasped on this story and made it one, with all the undertones of blood and horror that true fairy tales have.
I wrote a few years ago a piece of fiction for a client that presented the idea of Diana deified as the Goddess of the Age, the representation of "self-serving grief and the madness of crowds".
At the time, it was true. Now, perhaps not so much.
[ 25. June 2012, 14:46: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
I wonder if there's any crossover between people who didn't feel affected much and people who are not at all royalist and think that having a royal family is a bad ideal.
I'm very much a royalist, and I thought the whole thing was completely ridiculous.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
Ditto. I quite like the Royal Family on the whole but I never was a fan of Diana. I think many of those of us who thought it was absurd didn't like to say so because it looked like speaking ill of the dead.
I also am going to ask how much of the hysteria was manufactured by the Spencer family? (I don't have the answer to this.)
There was a definitely a desire to show Diana as the doting, perfect mother, and how would those poor boys cope now that their father was the sole surviving parent? Turns out that Charles has done an alright job AFAICT.
[Edited to make sense ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) ]
[ 25. June 2012, 15:10: Message edited by: la vie en rouge ]
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Originally posted by bib
quote:
To me she was a silly girl who had entered into an unsuitable marriage. She was just as culpable as Charles for all that transpired.
She was only a teenager when she got engaged, and only days past her twentieth birthday when she was married. William was born prior to her 21st birthday. Charles was 32 at the time of the engagement and marriage. The marriage may have been unsuitable, but to criticise a teenager for being silly, when surrounded by older and, one would hope, wiser people seems harsh.
From the original Candle in the Wind
quote:
They crawled out of the woodwork
And they whispered into your brain
They set you on the treadmill
And they made you change your name
Maybe, Eutychus and Trudy Scrumptious had a point.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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windsofchange
Shipmate
# 13000
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Posted
quote:
Prince Philip Sleeping in the streets and pulling out their hair for someone they never knew. And they think we're mad!
quote:
HM Queen Elizabeth II Nowadays people want glamor and tears, the grand performance. I've never been good at that.
- (The Queen, 2006)
[ 25. June 2012, 15:38: Message edited by: windsofchange ]
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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on." (owner of Coney Island Freak Show, upon learning someone outbid him for a 5-legged puppy)
Posts: 153 | From: Reseda, CA, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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Lord Jestocost
Shipmate
# 12909
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
EJ would have done better, IMO, to have done "Song for Guy", which a) is a far better song, and one of his best and b) has very good words at the end - as most of it is an instrumental - when he sings "Life, is a temporary thing".
EJ's "Goodbye, yellow brick road" album begins with a really quite good instrumental piece, "Funeral for a friend", seguing into "Love lies bleeding". Now, that would have been a good piece for the service, albeit not with a tempo or tact usually displayed at funerals.
Posts: 761 | From: The Instrumentality of Man | Registered: Aug 2007
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But this is all so literalist. I think that people responded to a fairy-story, with an abandoned princess, a ruined goddess, a dying victim of cruel Ugly Relatives, and so on.
Myth.
I love this, esp the Ugly Relatives. I'm reminded that the Diana cult didn't really get going until after the birth of William when she lost 30 pounds and started to look really chic in the clothes her fashion experts selected. Diana binged and vomited and was worshipped. Fergie binged and didn't vomit and was vilified.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
I felt the public putting their emotional needs above those of the immediate family, especially the children, was unpleasant and thoughtless. Having the children walk behind their mother's coffin in front of millions was quasi-abusive frankly. But can you imagine the public reaction if they had announced a private funeral for the sake of the children ? (Perhaps with a public memorial service afterwards.) At that time I think there quite possibly would have been riots - the whole thing was insane.
My own mother died, after a long illness, in the same hour as Diana although her passing wasn't a blip on the radar in a small adobe house in rural New Mexico. Her funeral simple and small. Throughout the Diana outpouring I felt a kindship with those boys who are different from me in every possible way . I could only imagine how good it would feel that so many people loved and mourned your mother, that her passing wouldn't go unnoticed and that millions of people were praying for her and you in that dark hour. In my altered state the fact that the wole world seemed to be mourning at the same time as me was helpful in an odd way and I always look back at those times with a strange sense of gratitude for the connectedness I felt in a time when the situation could have led to isolation and self pity.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But this is all so literalist. I think that people responded to a fairy-story, with an abandoned princess, a ruined goddess, a dying victim of cruel Ugly Relatives, and so on.
Myth.
I love this, esp the Ugly Relatives. I'm reminded that the Diana cult didn't really get going until after the birth of William when she lost 30 pounds ...
Boy, that sure is not how I remember it. I recall the obsessive adulation starting with the announcement of the engagement and continuing right through every agonizing minute of the wedding coverage. I was 16 at the time and photos of me from that summer show me and many of my friends wearing sadly misguided "Princess Di" style ruffled blouses -- those who were lucky could even manage the hairstyle.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
In my altered state the fact that the wole world seemed to be mourning at the same time as me was helpful in an odd way and I always look back at those times with a strange sense of gratitude for the connectedness I felt in a time when the situation could have led to isolation and self pity.
One of my parents died the same day as a well-known (and well-loved) person in the same city. I also felt that shared mourning and connectedness. Thank you for explaining this better that I could.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But this is all so literalist. I think that people responded to a fairy-story, with an abandoned princess, a ruined goddess, a dying victim of cruel Ugly Relatives, and so on.
Myth.
I love this, esp the Ugly Relatives. I'm reminded that the Diana cult didn't really get going until after the birth of William when she lost 30 pounds ...
Boy, that sure is not how I remember it. I recall the obsessive adulation starting with the announcement of the engagement and continuing right through every agonizing minute of the wedding coverage. I was 16 at the time and photos of me from that summer show me and many of my friends wearing sadly misguided "Princess Di" style ruffled blouses -- those who were lucky could even manage the hairstyle.
Yep. That's how I remember it. It was Dianamania.
The abandoned princess/Ugly Relatives part only really got going a few years later, after the cracks (and the apparently carefully managed press) really started appearing.
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
My recollection is the same as Trudy. I, too, was 16 when she got engaged. There was a certain amount of bewilderment amongst my friends at school, all just three years younger than Diana - we had all been encouraged to work hard at school and given the strong message that teenage marriage was A Bad Thing; and then suddenly the papers were full of stories about how wonderful, how romantic, it was settling down in your teens. For me, there seemed to be a big disconnect between the world as I had understood it, and the world as it was now presented. Up to then, teenage marriage was something that happened to girls who got pregnant and "had" to get married, and who were held up as an Awful Warning. By the time I left school at 18, Diana had been engaged, married, pregnant, had had William. We schoolgirls were quite fascinated by the whole thing. Everything happened in such rapid succession that it was a constant topic of conversation. And yes, we all had the pie frilled blouses.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I suppose Bernie Taupin could have changed the words of Daniel to Diana. I'm always surprised at the number of people who remember the song Daniel because somebody named Daniel died. In the song, Daniel didn't die. He moved to Spain. It's right there in the first two lines, "Daniel is travelling tonight on a plane. I can see the red tail lights heading for Spain." I'm sure it's the, "Lord, I miss Daniel, oh I miss him so much," line that does it.
I'm off to start a new Heaven thread on meanings of songs - thanks.
As for the whole Diana thing, we were with friends the night before watching 'Evita' which had just come out on video. We commented on the scenes of hysterical mourning at Eva's death, and said we couldn't imagine such a thing happening in Britain.
Little did we know...
[ 26. June 2012, 05:39: Message edited by: Gill H ]
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But this is all so literalist. I think that people responded to a fairy-story, with an abandoned princess, a ruined goddess, a dying victim of cruel Ugly Relatives, and so on.
Myth.
I love this, esp the Ugly Relatives. I'm reminded that the Diana cult didn't really get going until after the birth of William when she lost 30 pounds and started to look really chic in the clothes her fashion experts selected. Diana binged and vomited and was worshipped. Fergie binged and didn't vomit and was vilified.
Yes, it's quite complicated, I suppose. The Fair Princess was shown as suffering, rejected for another woman, who can be shown as wicked, and contrasts with over-weight princesses, who were far too worldly (toe-sucking).
Then, there's the mascara in that famous interview; I think that swung it. With eyes like that, who would not want to love someone so doomed? Sex and death, innit?
It's like about 6 fairy-stories wrapped in one.
Ah, but who's next?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Then, there's the mascara in that famous interview; I think that swung it. With eyes like that, who would not want to love someone so doomed? Sex and death, innit?
Not the sitting alone on that bench outside the Taj Mahal looking plaintively at the camera?
(I had no patience with that.)
The morning the news broke my mother phoned me, too upset to speak and just told me to watch the news on television before hanging up. My first reaction was "at last Diana'll be off the front pages". We'd had a surfeit of her in the weeks before - she was never out of the media. How wrong could I be.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, Western culture has probably tried to claim that the power of myth has been eroded, via rationality, science, the Reformation, secularism, and so on.
However, you could argue that all societies are saturated by myth, which is often fairly unconscious, and hence quite gripping. I mean, if we were conscious of them, they would not grip people.
Hence, the puzzlement by some rational people over the Diana myth or fairy-tale, since it operates at a different level from mundane reality.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I could never understand the obsession with Diana. To me she was a silly girl who had entered into an unsuitable marriage. She was just as culpable as Charles for all that transpired.
Neither can be held responsible for the match. It was an arranged marriage. The heir had to have kin, and the search for the right kind of mildly blue-blooded virgin was getting nowhere. Diana ticked most of the boxes, including the important ones, and they were railroaded into it.
Agreed. Ideally Charles would have married a plump German or Scandinavian princess and kept on (which he did) knocking off Camilla on the side, and Diana would have married some dull Midlands peer and, if she wished, knocked off (which she did) rugby players and polo players on the side.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, Western culture has probably tried to claim that the power of myth has been eroded, via rationality science, the Reformation, secularism, and so on.
That's not a view I've ever heard from people extolling the virtues of western culture. In fact the sort of people famous for promoting "rationality" as you put it, often state that they are all too aware of how much power myth has.
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
Apart from the hysteria surrounding her death, all I knew of her was her remarkable compassion for people with AIDS at a time when our national leadership could not even bring themselves to utter the word. Her work there alone probably accomplished more good than I will in my lifetime.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, Western culture has probably tried to claim that the power of myth has been eroded, via rationality science, the Reformation, secularism, and so on.
That's not a view I've ever heard from people extolling the virtues of western culture. In fact the sort of people famous for promoting "rationality" as you put it, often state that they are all too aware of how much power myth has.
Off-topic really, but I suppose there have been mixed views of post-Enlightenment developments. Weber seems to have argued that society became 'rationalized', (leading to 'disenchantment'), whereas somebody like Jung argued that this was superficial, and that dark forces still lurked beneath!
But I think some people are shocked at a manifestation like the dying princess Diana fairy-tale, as it seems primitive. Well, we are!
On the other hand, I suppose Freud in turn decried Jung (eventually), and argued that there should be a shift towards rationality, and for example, that it was time to give up childish things like religion. Oh well, this discussion could go on and on.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I'm reminded that the Diana cult didn't really get going until after the birth of William when she lost 30 pounds ...
quote:
Boy, that sure is not how I remember it. I recall the obsessive adulation starting with the announcement of the engagement and continuing right through every agonizing minute of the wedding coverage. I was 16 at the time and photos of me from that summer show me and many of my friends wearing sadly misguided "Princess Di" style ruffled blouses -- those who were lucky could even manage the hairstyle.
Right. I was thinking of when she became a fashion icon like the supermodels and had forgotten about the general Diana-mania before the wedding. I hated that hairstyle. Throughout the wedding I kept thinking that her dress, the pageantry and the carriage would all look like something from 200 years ago, if she didn't have that sporty modern hair cut.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
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Originally posted by Choirboy:
Apart from the hysteria surrounding her death, all I knew of her was her remarkable compassion for people with AIDS at a time when our national leadership could not even bring themselves to utter the word. Her work there alone probably accomplished more good than I will in my lifetime.
To be fair, the don't die of ignorance campaign is one of the (very) few things I admire Thatcher for. The continent were much less upfront and had a much worse epidemic.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Bax
Shipmate
# 16572
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Posted
To quote Noel Coward:
"Strange how potent cheap music is"
Sometimes a piece of music that is "cheap" can catch the emotions. Often the most moving hymns are not great music either...
Posts: 108 | Registered: Aug 2011
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Morlader
Shipmate
# 16040
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bax:
To quote Noel Coward:
"Strange how potent cheap music is"
Sometimes a piece of music that is "cheap" can catch the emotions. Often the most moving hymns are not great music either...
Or, perhaps: "Often hymns are not great music either ...." I won't go as far as substituting "Always" for "Often" but I thought about it! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I agree with Noel C, though. And with your first sentence.
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.. to utmost west.
Posts: 858 | From: Not England | Registered: Nov 2010
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:
Or, perhaps: "Often hymns are not great music either ...." I won't go as far as substituting "Always" for "Often" but I thought about it! ...
I suppose it depends where you draw the line between 'great' and 'good'. Thinking about the kind of A&M / (N)EH hymns that I like, there are tunes by composers including, off the top of my head, Haydn, Handel, Mendelssohn, Vaughan Williams, and Sullivan. Some of those (tunes and composers) are better than others, but on the whole, I think there's really nothing there to complain about.
[ 28. June 2012, 16:17: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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