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Source: (consider it) Thread: Wycliffe Hall Revisited
leftfieldlover
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Any one else heard the latest news about Dr R T?

[ 25. May 2012, 08:59: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Matt Black

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Sorry, thought this was about the Morning Star of the Reformation [Hot and Hormonal]

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the long ranger
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Reading between the lines, I guess you mean Revd Dr. Richard Turnbull and this news.

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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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Moo

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There is a thread in Limbo which gives exhaustive (and exhausting) background information.

Moo

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Yerevan
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I would be very intrigued to know the story behind that departure! Maybe there isn't a market for a second Oak Hill after all? Also as I understand it the university's long term aim is to turn the permanent private halls into colleges or, if necessary, cut them loose, as their ambiguous status is coming under scrutiny. I can't imagine that Wycliffe could manage to be both a 'sound' con evo institution and an aspiring Oxford college, even if they had the dosh to achieve college status.
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Ultracrepidarian
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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Reading between the lines, I guess you mean Revd Dr. Richard Turnbull and this news.

[sarcasm]
Ha! That article seems to be a singularly dispassionate piece of journalism.
[/sarcasm]

I don't have any insight into the internal machinations of Wycliffe Hall, but I do hope that the new principal does something to improve what happens when students/ordinands from Wycliffe go and visit nearby parishes. With one exception (which was merely ordinary), the preaching that we've had at Evensong from Wycliffe visitors has been dire, and the Wycliffites don't hang around after the service or engage with the 'locals'.

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the long ranger
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@Ultracrepidarian - it was the only reference I could find to make any kind of sense from the first post. I'd be happy to hear that there are other news options.

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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”

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Yerevan
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PS It probably isn't very Christian of me to have 'Ding dong the witch is dead' running through my head...
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Ultracrepidarian
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thelongranger - Don't worry. I didn't think that you necessarily agreed with the opinions in the article, I was just amused by how definite they were!

I don't really know what's been going on, but a glance at the first page of the 2007 thread suggests that Turnbull was (at least to those outside Wycliffe) a divisive figure.

[ 22. May 2012, 14:34: Message edited by: Ultracrepidarian ]

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Reading between the lines, I guess you mean Revd Dr. Richard Turnbull and this news.

News? from the VirtueOnline website? What next? Fox? Pravda?

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Organ Builder
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Without re-reading the entire 47+ pages of that thread again (it was interesting at the time, but still...) I seem to recall that he was a divisive figure even among the alumni of Wycliffe Hall.

I think Nightlamp was a graduate of the Hall, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I have misremembered. Custard was a student at the Hall during the time that thread was generated.

Like others, I'd be interested in knowing why. It seems as though it would have been handled a little more smoothly if it had been a health issue.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Robert Armin

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quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Reading between the lines, I guess you mean Revd Dr. Richard Turnbull and this news.

I find that a fascinating website. Is it possible it might just ever so slightly biased in its presentation of news. In
this story I found the following statement:
quote:
The reality is that it is almost certainly too late to save the Church of England. It is firmly held captive by its addiction to the power which corrupts absolutely - the ecclesiastical power which so routinely and predictably corrupts newly ordained bishops on the day of their consecration. It finds that power in its nexus with the State, which has become attenuated almost to breaking point in the course of two centuries of disentangling the medieval church from the parliamentary and social reforms of the modern era: but the Church, and especially its leadership, clings to the fantasy that it is still, somehow, the Church of England. In order to hold on to that delusion, they continue to prostitute the Church at the feet of the rampantly immoral secularism of the present day, in which sex and money are the only currencies.
While I have no love for the Church hierarchy, I'm not sure I recognise the institution described here.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
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Ah - in the time it took me to write my last several of you have made the same point more succinctly.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Tubbs

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Sorry, thought this was about the Morning Star of the Reformation [Hot and Hormonal]

I was hoping that the thread was in the wrong place and we were talking about the TV series staring Jack Shepherd ...

I wish everyone involved all the best as they deal with the fallout from this. (Is the best I can do under the circumstances. [Biased] ).

Tubbs

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Custard
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I was indeed a student at Wycliffe for 3 years under Richard. There are several shipmates who were there while he was Principal.

Richard is a really nice guy and I got on well with him most of the time. He was an effective minister when he led a small to medium sized church. He's good as a preacher (and I've heard he's good as a pastor too). He's very good at cutting through red tape, but he's not so good at managing people, and so even though I mostly agree with him on theology, I think he's probably done the right thing in resigning. Good bloke, wrong job.

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Stamp thine image in its place.


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Barnabas62
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I'm inclined to hold fire on this. Sudden departures can be for all sorts of reasons, and particularly if personal circumstances are involved.

I was one of a number of Shipmates who got very cross about the way the Elaine Storkey affair was handled. However, my wife and I have a good friend who lives in Oxford, who we trust and respect, who knows him and his wife personally, and very much likes them as people (even though she has markedly different theological views).

I'm inclined to agree with Custard's view and wait to know more.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Organ Builder
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OK--perhaps I'm just getting unduly suspicious in my old age but... He's still listed on the Wycliffe Hall website, and the only thing Google is turning up is that article from Virtue Online.

I would have expected to see some other announcement by now from somewhere. The website doesn't particularly surprise me, but I'd be more comfortable if there were some other verification. Does anyone have confirmation beyond the Virtue Online article?

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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innocent(ish)
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According to Virtue Online the Wycliffe Council has released a statement saying that Richard is taking a leave of absence from the hall, and they are in ongoing discussions with him over his future role at Wycliffe.

They stress that he has not been dismissed.

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"Christianity has become part of the furniture ... like a grand piano nobody plays any longer.I want the dust to be taken off and people to play music." Archbishop John Sentamu

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Custard
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Statement from the Hall Council.

quote:
Richard Turnbull is to take a leave of absence from the Hall. The Council wishes to make it clear that the Principal has not been dismissed. The Council and Richard are now in ongoing discussions over his future role at Wycliffe...
As I posted earlier, he's a good bloke and there are lots of jobs he could doubtless be very good at. But no-one has every single gift, and if he were to continue as Principal, I think he would need to take some time out to develop his people management skills.

I wish both him and the college well.

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blog
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Stamp thine image in its place.


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Tubbs

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quote:
Originally posted by innocent(ish):
According to Virtue Online the Wycliffe Council has released a statement saying that Richard is taking a leave of absence from the hall, and they are in ongoing discussions with him over his future role at Wycliffe.

They stress that he has not been dismissed.

Wycliffe's website has a statement.

[x-posted with Custard]

Tubbs

[ 23. May 2012, 21:03: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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FreeJack
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How often does someone actually come back for a credible second attempt at the same job after a statement like that?
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Doc Tor
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Well, that was a wholly transparent and informative statement. I expect the present and prospective students are completely satisfied with it and have had their minds put at rest, and are even now contemplating their studies free from worry or concern about future developments... [Paranoid]

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Forward the New Republic

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
How often does someone actually come back for a credible second attempt at the same job after a statement like that?

Yes, it's pretty straightforward, isn't it? Gardening leave, pending resignation by mutual consent because that's better all round than dismissal. Happened to me, in a much lowlier job and not in an academic context, years ago.

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Barnabas62
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Wait and see, is my view. Equivocal and guarded statements simply tell you that there is reason for equivocation and guarding. Guessing at the reasons for that is basically a betting game.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Doublethink.
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It usually means we are trying to negotiate mutual agreement on whether x leaves by resignation, early retirement, ill health retirement or conveniently finds another job before anyone has to make a final decision.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
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quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
It usually means we are trying to negotiate mutual agreement on whether x leaves by resignation, early retirement, ill health retirement or conveniently finds another job before anyone has to make a final decision.

And we're trying to sort out between us how much big the pay off is going to be to ensure that the situation goes right away and is never mentioned again.

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Edward Green
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Without being preachy do say a prayer for the ordinands. It is a bit like a Vicar suddenly leaving a Parish with no warning. Not an easy time for the house.

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Clint Boggis
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What a misleading thread title!

So this isn't about the bible translator (my first thought for a purg discussion on a Christian site) and not about the TV detective (a reasonable alternative meaning) but some poxy college.

OP: could you really not be bothered to make it clear by adding 'Hall'?

Disappointed.

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Vaticanchic
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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
It usually means we are trying to negotiate mutual agreement on whether x leaves by resignation, early retirement, ill health retirement or conveniently finds another job before anyone has to make a final decision.

And we're trying to sort out between us how much big the pay off is going to be to ensure that the situation goes right away and is never mentioned again.

Tubbs

Folk do think like that. It's a mistake.

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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
Without being preachy do say a prayer for the ordinands. It is a bit like a Vicar suddenly leaving a Parish with no warning. Not an easy time for the house.

Yep. Difficult for the folks left behind (as well as the principals involved); awkward questions, finger-pointing. No doubt even a bit of schadenfreude in places - I don't mean this thread. It's the kingdom of God and his servants that lose out when things get messy.
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justlooking
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Bit more in the Church Times
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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
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quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
It usually means we are trying to negotiate mutual agreement on whether x leaves by resignation, early retirement, ill health retirement or conveniently finds another job before anyone has to make a final decision.

And we're trying to sort out between us how much big the pay off is going to be to ensure that the situation goes right away and is never mentioned again.

Tubbs

Folk do think like that. It's a mistake.
Not always ... But whether or not this is one of those times is anyone's guess.

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Clint Boggis:
What a misleading thread title!


Just changed it. Think you're right

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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justlooking
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It's 'trubble at t'mill', that's for sure. From the various reports I'd hazard a guess that Turnbull's 'management style' has a lot to do with it.
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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
From the various reports I'd hazard a guess that Turnbull's 'management style' has a lot to do with it.

Judging by what was in the earlier thread, I'd say you're right.

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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sebby
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
I was indeed a student at Wycliffe for 3 years under Richard. There are several shipmates who were there while he was Principal.

Richard is a really nice guy and I got on well with him most of the time. He was an effective minister when he led a small to medium sized church. He's good as a preacher (and I've heard he's good as a pastor too). He's very good at cutting through red tape, but he's not so good at managing people, and so even though I mostly agree with him on theology, I think he's probably done the right thing in resigning. Good bloke, wrong job.

What on earth would have been the right job?

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sebhyatt

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FreeJack
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He was good at his job when I met him as an Assistant Curate.
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Amos

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Oh dear. The Peter Principle in action.

[ 26. May 2012, 07:33: Message edited by: Amos ]

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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Barnabas62
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The information which was new to me (Church Times link) was that of further redundancies.

Now IME, when any manager has been through (or anywhere near) legal action over dismissals for whatever reason, they tend to become sticklers for following proper procedures. And particularly if the case has been lost. Then, they have been responsible for (or have at least had some responsibility for) the loss of revenue and/or reputation through their own actions and words.

But, I suppose, if there were stirrings of complaints, possibly legal complaints, following the three redundancies, and any doubt in the matter re proper procedures, then in this case the Council would have no option but to put the man on "gardening leave".

Even if my bit of speculation is anywhere near the mark, it doesn't mean he's got it wrong again. But I can see that the Council could ill-afford another "cause celebre" on a similar issue, with similar damaging publicity.

And of course it's the sort of problem institutions get for sticking loyally to someone found wanting in one area (no matter how good he might be in any others).

No doubt more will emerge.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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What struck me about the church times story was the 140,000 loss combined with having to hand back some grants. Fwiw, in the NHS, if you finish the year over budget they fire the CEO and the finance officer.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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FreeJack
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# 10612

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For me, losing Will Donaldson would be the final straw. He was the compromise appointment as No. 3. Whatever the financial situation, taking him out would have been the end for non-conservatives, as well as neutral and friendly bishops.

Maybe there were enough neutrals on the Council in the end who finally snapped.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
and I've heard he's good as a pastor too ...... but he's not so good at managing people.

I don't know anything about this or any of the people involved, but are those two statements compatible?

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
and I've heard he's good as a pastor too ...... but he's not so good at managing people.

I don't know anything about this or any of the people involved, but are those two statements compatible?
To be fair, I can imagine someone who is an excellent scholar, compassionate listener and trustworthy counsellor, and be utterly rubbish at managing people.

But only because they are too compassionate and kind and patient. If we're talking about abrasive, confrontational and dogmatic, I can equally imagine they'd be bad at management and a bad pastor.

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mdijon
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# 8520

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I could imagine someone kind and listening as the father in the family, but difficult and unyielding as the older brother. I've come across many who function well in authority or under authority, but poorly in less hierarchical situations.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Tyler Durden
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# 2996

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Freejack: I'm unclear what you're saying about Will Donaldson: are you saying he's a moderate and him going made other moderates feel there was now no restraint on Turnbull et al?

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innocent(ish)
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# 12691

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'Anglican Unscripted' reports the RT had been asked to make sure a member of Oxford University Theological faculty was on the appointments panel for new academic staff. This was asked of them by both the CofE and Oxford University. A recent appointment didn't go through the proper advertising or interview process, which ended up with the situation they're now in.

They also report that there are only 8 ordinands signed up for next September (normal intake some 25 or more) - all men.

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"Christianity has become part of the furniture ... like a grand piano nobody plays any longer.I want the dust to be taken off and people to play music." Archbishop John Sentamu

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Charles Read
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# 3963

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Looking at the CT report there'sc a bit more here perhaps.

All colleges and courses (in the CofE, but elsewhere too) will lose HEFC grants in the coming year - nothing here to hand back so I don't think that is what is referred to in the article. Rather, we are all facing loss of income - but our validating universities usually channel that money. Plus, university fees are rising. Hence the CofE has a Cunning Plan here
- this involves us all linking up with the same university - chosen by the Cof E and it will not be (inter alia) Oxford or Cambridge.

However, if a college or course want to stay with its current university, it can but will need to establish bursaries.

The changes do not mean colleges etc. will face reduced funding - if they go with the new system, money will come from central funds as at present. If they keep their present university partner, they will need to make up the shortfall between what central funds provides anyway and what that university is charging.

So what RT says in the CT about needing to make redundancies due to this new system is hogwash. No-one from WH has been at any consultation meeting I've attended - are they engaging with the process? RT has a bit of a track record of not working with other colleges / courses on such matters.

And worse, the inspecion report criticises WH for not teaching theological reflection etc. - no surprise as RT had just sacked all the staff who did this - so getting rid of Will Donaldson (and abolishing his post) is not excactly going to help there.

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Yerevan
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# 10383

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As I understand it* the university is anxious about the academic credibility of the BTh and wants to bring it more firmly under the theology faculty's control. The PPHs understandably want a degree which will prepare people for ministry in their particular Christian tradition. The university understandably wants a degree which is every bit as academically rigorous and demanding as any other Oxford degree. The two aims may not be entirely compatible.

*From friends. I don't personally have any connection with the university.

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Pre-cambrian
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# 2055

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And the University's concern will only be increased by the common award proposal, whereby colleges that are ostensibly part of the Oxford University system (and no doubt promote themselves as such) will be actually handing out awards validated elsewhere. The PPHs also prepare students for Oxford BAs and the University will definitely want to protect its reputation there, including through oversight of tutors.

Given the PPHs are already under scrutiny my prediction is that the University will sever the link with the theological colleges.

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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."

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Custard
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# 5402

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That could of course lead back to the system pre-PPHs, where Oxbridge theological colleges were not part of the university, but an "academic-track" ordinand could be at Wescott for their ministry training and Christ's for their degree (or Wycliffe & Keble or wherever).

If of course the C of E felt it helpful to keep putting a small number of ordinands through "secular" academic theology courses...

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