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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Wycliffe Hall Revisited
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
Sorry - I was not entirely fulsomely clear before...
Under the Common Awards system, there will be 'exempted tracks'. The main criterion for this will be that the award will be mainly taught in a 'secular' theology faculty by the home team there. Tripows and Schools may fit in here - not to guarantee they will be alowed exempted status.
But if they are, there is no funding problem.
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
Posts: 701 | From: Norwich | Registered: Jan 2003
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
That could of course lead back to the system pre-PPHs, where Oxbridge theological colleges were not part of the university, but an "academic-track" ordinand could be at Wescott for their ministry training and Christ's for their degree (or Wycliffe & Keble or wherever).
This is currently the case at Cambridge still for Cambridge University degrees. PPHs don't exist at Cambridge, and all those matriculating/graduating must do so through a college.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by innocent(ish):
'Anglican Unscripted' reports the RT had been asked to make sure a member of Oxford University Theological faculty was on the appointments panel for new academic staff. This was asked of them by both the CofE and Oxford University. A recent appointment didn't go through the proper advertising or interview process, which ended up with the situation they're now in.
Whoa, horsey...
So can I get this straight? Wycliffe Hall have bypassed agreed advertising and interview procedure and made an academic appointment by fiat?
Call me a luddite, local authority stick-in-the-mud, but posts are advertised widely, with an appropriately constituted interview board even if you know exactly who you want to appoint.
Not doing that is enough to get the person in charge the sack, no matter what else they might have done.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
If you look at the most recent Ministry Council Inspection Report of Wycliffe Hall you can see it up there in black and white as Recommendation No. 1.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
A rare event. I'm lost for words ...well, almost.
If that is the case, how on earth could anyone make a mistake like that?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
No dog, IANAL, ignorant, etc., just curious.
It seems to me that the recommendation quoted by Pre-Cambrian is about who sits on the appointments board. Whereas what innocent(ish) is relaying is the story that an appointment did not follow proper advertising and interview procedure.
In other words, I don't see that the recommendation and whether or not it was observed is necessarily related directly to an improprer appointment of some sort.
[ 28. May 2012, 16:45: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
A rare event. I'm lost for words ...well, almost.
If that is the case, how on earth could anyone make a mistake like that?
I suppose it depends how much of a public/private sector mentality some of the people have. I understand that the requirement to have advertising, interviews etc is very common in the public sector.
In the private sector, firms can and do just employ whoever they feel like, with whatever process they want (often, no process at all). I'm on my third employer in 16 years. I applied for the first position while at University. The other two have been entirely "private" transitions where the new employer contacted me directly through mutual acquaintances and invited me to join them. No adverts, no interviews, no other applicants - just them, wanting me.
I got the impression that that sort of thing also went on in academia, for better or for worse. But I haven't had much contact with people who stayed in that field for quite a while now.
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I thought I should update my signature line....
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tyler Durden:
Freejack: I'm unclear what you're saying about Will Donaldson: are you saying he's a moderate and him going made other moderates feel there was now no restraint on Turnbull et al?
Well I'm not very close to the situation, but I think you'd put Will in the moderate open charismatic evangelical tradition (as in say our very own Bishop Pete) and would be acceptable to the wider evangelical community and wider church and academic community. He was appointed No.3 at about the same time as Turnbull appointed Vibert (who is more of a Sydney/Reform type) as No.2.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
By analogy with Ofsted, Wycliffe Hall has been subject to a procedure something like "special measures"' I guess these must have had some impact on normal laissez-faire freedoms.
Factors like "no more embarrassment, please" and "but we promised to do that ..." tend to weigh heavily in the mind, if an organisation is subject to close scrutiny.
Ah well, it will all come out in the wash. At least some of it ...
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
Given the PPHs are already under scrutiny my prediction is that the University will sever the link with the theological colleges.
I think the status of the PPHs isn't helped by the fact that Greyfriars, the largest of the Catholic ones, abruptly folded not so long ago in the midst of truly eye-watering levels of incompetence, leaving its students high and dry (in the end they transferred en masse to Regent's, the Baptist PPH).
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
Regents is a bit different in that I think it's the only one to be both a full college *and* a PPH, whereas the others are PPHs.
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
... Greyfriars, the largest of the Catholic ones, a ... students ... transferred en masse to Regent's, the Baptist PPH ...
I bet that sounds odd to Americans!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
Regents is a bit different in that I think it's the only one to be both a full college *and* a PPH, whereas the others are PPHs.
Regent's is definitely a PPH rather than a college, but its the most 'college-like' of the PPHs and seems likely to achieve college status in the long term.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
Gosh I think you're right. I studied there and at the time thought it had dual status... tons of abstract brains and zero common sense.
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
... Greyfriars, the largest of the Catholic ones, a ... students ... transferred en masse to Regent's, the Baptist PPH ...
I bet that sounds odd to Americans!
Never mind Americans, this whole PPH business sounds odd to those of us whose minds were shaped in the bracing winds of the Fens rather than the foetid river vapours of the Thames Valley!
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
If you look at the most recent Ministry Council Inspection Report of Wycliffe Hall you can see it up there in black and white as Recommendation No. 1.
Seems like a fair bit of that wasn't implemented to the inspectors satisfaction + the SMT said some of their recommendations weren't practical/desirable - if the guy hadn't turned that around I guess that could be a major issue.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
If you look at the most recent Ministry Council Inspection Report of Wycliffe Hall you can see it up there in black and white as Recommendation No. 1.
Seems like a fair bit of that wasn't implemented to the inspectors satisfaction + the SMT said some of their recommendations weren't practical/desirable - if the guy hadn't turned that around I guess that could be a major issue.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
... Greyfriars, the largest of the Catholic ones, a ... students ... transferred en masse to Regent's, the Baptist PPH ...
I bet that sounds odd to Americans!
Never mind Americans, this whole PPH business sounds odd to those of us whose minds were shaped in the bracing winds of the Fens rather than the foetid river vapours of the Thames Valley!
Its getting to sound increasing odd even in our vaporous atmosphere, unfortunately for some of the smaller PPHs.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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innocent(ish)
Shipmate
# 12691
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Posted
Having just read a report of a victory by Ridley Hall over Wycliffe in an annual Cricket Match, I'm now wondering if RTs departure is the all too familiar tale of the owners/trustees binning the manager after a particularly embarrassing defeat.
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"Christianity has become part of the furniture ... like a grand piano nobody plays any longer.I want the dust to be taken off and people to play music." Archbishop John Sentamu
Posts: 109 | From: Rochester | Registered: Jun 2007
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
If WH has only 7 students signed up for October (that sounds like part-time training to me but never mind...), then they will be in financial difficulties due to lack of fees. MinDiv used to say 50 students in toto was a minimum for a formational community. If all WH students do 3 years (they won't...) that would be... 21 eventually.
Then again - lack of any women students is indicative of something.
Some dioceses do not let ordinands go to WH - the Hall needed to ask hard questions about why that is and sort it ages ago.
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
Posts: 701 | From: Norwich | Registered: Jan 2003
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
Julian Mann at Virtueonline appears to think that Richard Turnbull has now ceased to be principal. Is he jumping the gun on this, or is the news out elsewhere?
There's nothing new on the College's own website, but that seems to operate on the basis that once everyone knows anyway we will put out an emollient official statement.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
Some dioceses do not let ordinands go to WH - the Hall needed to ask hard questions about why that is and sort it ages ago.
How come? Is this a new development and was this also the case pre-RT?
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Right lets be clear there are former PPHs that are full colleges, Mansfield for one, I wonder whether Manchester is as well.
I suspect Regents like Mansfield always had a bit of dual agenda. Mansfield was partly there to give access to the teaching in Oxford to Non-conformists as well as provide ministerial training. I almost applied to Mansfield at 18 to study Mathematics but was advised by them to try St Hugh's instead.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
quote:
Some dioceses do not let ordinands go to WH - the Hall needed to ask hard questions about why that is and sort it ages ago.
How come? Is this a new development and was this also the case pre-RT?
Ah so maybe there has been a House of Bishops / Informal Alliance of DDO boycott on this year.
If 70%+ of bishops have just advised this year's candidates that they would not support an application to Wycliffe Hall, except for male applicants that came from a Reform church, or had a pre-existing Oxford connection or a personal family need to be there, then it is game over.
Bishops 1 RT 0
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
The link between theological colleges and universities has been most fruitful.
So called 'secular' theological faculties still require in many cases at least one ancient language, and provides an intellectually challenging path of suitable for a man or woman entering what one might hope, can still just be described as a learned profession.
I hope that the Church of Scotland never abandons its high academic standards required for ordination, or go down the path of training on the cheap, with weekends away and postal courses.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
Sebby, I know this is a broader question than the immediate issue of Wycliffe, but I wonder how long UK churches can sustain that level of training? Three years at least of formal training for every clergyperson is a hell of a lot of money for an ageing, shrinking Christian population to find.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Fr Raphael
Apprentice
# 17131
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
Sebby, I know this is a broader question than the immediate issue of Wycliffe, but I wonder how long UK churches can sustain that level of training? Three years at least of formal training for every clergyperson is a hell of a lot of money for an ageing, shrinking Christian population to find.
Most do not train as long as tht I think and most do not do training at the colleges, they do a kind of part times or night school band it's much less expensive.
Posts: 40 | Registered: May 2012
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Fool on Hill
Shipmate
# 12183
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Posted
Of course, Wycliffe Hall, being evangelical, will be very interested in what the Bible tells us about how Jesus trained some of the most successful church-planters ever. I don't think the British predilection for intellect in ministry was quite so high on Jesus' list as some of the posts on this thread might suggest.
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God appointed a worm that attacked the bush so that it withered.
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Ahleal V
Shipmate
# 8404
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
Sebby, I know this is a broader question than the immediate issue of Wycliffe, but I wonder how long UK churches can sustain that level of training? Three years at least of formal training for every clergyperson is a hell of a lot of money for an ageing, shrinking Christian population to find.
Three years is painfully little, considering that most people are coming in having not studied Theology before, and the majority of people seem to do 2 years as they're over 32.
Remember that the RC church still does 4 years of Theology and 2 years of Philosophy.
I think 4-5 years would be far better, but that would work best with single ordinands who didn't get married/have children in between.
Seriously, do you really want to cram the Old Testament, New Testament, doctrine, church history, spirituality, ethics, Anglicanism, preaching, languages, liturgy, mission, Patristics and general priestcraft (not to mention anything else of use) in 2-3 years?
AV
Posts: 499 | From: English Spires | Registered: Aug 2004
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
Perhaps rather than trying to cram everything into a two or three year course there could be a groundwork of things to cover with the expectation that those ordained engage in continuing education and training throughout their working lives. My impression is that many do this voluntarily anyway if the contents of their studies are anything to go by!
In many professions these days there is a formal requirement for some sort of continuing education to be taking place if you are to continue to practice your profession. I don't imagine that ordinands at the end of their course think "Right that's it, I've learnt it all now" so perhaps there could be a programme of 'post-ordination' study to follow. I may of course be talking in complete ignorance here, maybe such a thing already exists?
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
There is post ordination training. Initial Ministerial Training (IME) is in two parts. The first part is at theological college and that is 2-3 years. The second part is in the curacy which is normally 3-4 years if done full time. If a curacy is part time then it could be much longer. My diocese is kind and give us a year without formal study in the first year of curacy but after that I'm hoping to do an MA or some other form of accredited study.
[ 03. June 2012, 20:36: Message edited by: Poppy ]
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
Seriously, do you really want to cram the Old Testament, New Testament, doctrine, church history, spirituality, ethics, Anglicanism, preaching, languages, liturgy, mission, Patristics and general priestcraft (not to mention anything else of use) in 2-3 years?
As with many things relating to the church in the UK at the moment, this isn't about what you or I might consider ideal. It is about what is possible, and I don't think even 2 to 3 years will be possible for much longer.
quote:
Remember that the RC church still does 4 years of Theology and 2 years of Philosophy.
But they are notoriously lacking in ordinands these days!
[ 03. June 2012, 21:42: Message edited by: Yerevan ]
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Ginge
Apprentice
# 17140
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Posted
Now it seems there is complete chaos at Wycliffe Hall. On Twitter Turnbull was said to have a new job there - as the Director of some Ethics group. (Centre for Enterprise, Ethics and Markets). The Wycliffe webpage never mentioned this and other staff didn't know anything about it. The Council then but published a notice to say he had stood down as principal and talked of the 'differences which existed between Turnbull and the college Council', Then today, the Bishop of Chester - the Chair of the College Council resigned 'with immediate effect.'
Sounds like the beginning of the end of a once-great institution. With hardly any students and a dwindling reputation it could be caput. Pity for those stuck there now. Seemed clear four years ago that it wouldn't survive that kind of leadership.
Posts: 1 | From: Royston | Registered: May 2012
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
The webpage message says he's been made an Honorary Research Fellow and they are continuing talks to resolve their differences.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
quote:
Seriously, do you really want to cram the Old Testament, New Testament, doctrine, church history, spirituality, ethics, Anglicanism, preaching, languages, liturgy, mission, Patristics and general priestcraft (not to mention anything else of use) in 2-3 years?
As with many things relating to the church in the UK at the moment, this isn't about what you or I might consider ideal. It is about what is possible, and I don't think even 2 to 3 years will be possible for much longer.
quote:
Remember that the RC church still does 4 years of Theology and 2 years of Philosophy.
But they are notoriously lacking in ordinands these days!
The argument is that ministry training is about formation – getting the extra something from someone that makes the difference between them being a good deacon / member of the PCC to being able to shape, form and lead a church and take a congregation forward. The 3 years is unlikely to change.
What may change is the number of places offering ministerial training and a decrease in the number of students graduating each year as there are fewer jobs to go round. The ratio Rev T was quoted for Baptists was 1 student looking for their first pastorate to 1 vacancy. (I’m assuming that the ratio quoted is for suitable vacancies). People on the Ship have quoted a ratio of 3 accredited pastors to one vacancy.
Expectations about what’s going to happen after graduation are also likely to change. People going straight into mid-sized or larger places as sole pastors after graduating are likely to be the exception now rather than the rule. Newly qualified pastors are more likely to be looking at smaller churches, part time posts, unpaid roles or assistant pastor jobs in large churches. (Or doing what two of the people in Rev T's year did and going where the work was - one joined an NFI mission team locally whilst another accepted a pastorate in Australia!)
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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groovy
Apprentice
# 17153
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Posted
quote:
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The webpage message says he's been made an Honorary Research Fellow and they are continuing talks to resolve their differences
What differences? It seems they are big enough that the Chair of the Council has also just resigned - see latest on the website. Turnbull is apparently putting it that he is heading up some Oxford University Centre on Ethics. They say he is not! I'm backing the university version!
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
I took 'talks to resolve their differences' to mean their respective legal advisors sorting out the redundancy package and what's going to be officially published.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on Hill:
Of course, Wycliffe Hall, being evangelical, will be very interested in what the Bible tells us about how Jesus trained some of the most successful church-planters ever. I don't think the British predilection for intellect in ministry was quite so high on Jesus' list as some of the posts on this thread might suggest.
You have got it back to front. The Rabbinical model that Jesus worked in is the root and origin of the University system. If Jesus passed his Rabbi interview when his parents lost him in the temple he must have been training in the scriptures some time. The length of his public ministry is disputed but he certainly devoted a significant amount of time to 'tutorials' with his disciples. Following the resurrection it is remarkable that God used Paul to bolster the academic rigour of the Early Church.
I am not an academic, more a James perhaps? But the Church needs 'Pauls' as well.
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linkedin
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
I got the impression that that sort of thing also went on in academia, for better or for worse. But I haven't had much contact with people who stayed in that field for quite a while now.
In academia they absolutely must advertise all posts.
However, they may peruse the CV of their favoured candidate before writing the advertisement and then tailor the advertisement to the CV.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
Gordon Kuhrt analyses the situation here
Two Wycliffe staff told me last week that
1. a new chair of council will be appointed first
2. an advert for principal will appear in the New Year with a view to that person starting in Sept 2013
Of course, timetables may vary and things happen a bit quicker....
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
Posts: 701 | From: Norwich | Registered: Jan 2003
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ahleal V:
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
Sebby, I know this is a broader question than the immediate issue of Wycliffe, but I wonder how long UK churches can sustain that level of training? Three years at least of formal training for every clergyperson is a hell of a lot of money for an ageing, shrinking Christian population to find.
Three years is painfully little, considering that most people are coming in having not studied Theology before, and the majority of people seem to do 2 years as they're over 32.
Remember that the RC church still does 4 years of Theology and 2 years of Philosophy.
I think 4-5 years would be far better, but that would work best with single ordinands who didn't get married/have children in between.
Seriously, do you really want to cram the Old Testament, New Testament, doctrine, church history, spirituality, ethics, Anglicanism, preaching, languages, liturgy, mission, Patristics and general priestcraft (not to mention anything else of use) in 2-3 years?
AV
Why not? Most baptist colleges do
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
[QUOTE]The ratio Rev T was quoted for Baptists was 1 student looking for their first pastorate to 1 vacancy. (I’m assuming that the ratio quoted is for suitable vacancies). People on the Ship have quoted a ratio of 3 accredited pastors to one vacancy.Tubbs
It's not quite 1:1 now but not yet 3:1 IME. I moved last year and it was quite straightforward - if anything I prolonged the process to cover a major project finishing. On the list and inducted in 9 months.
The one thing churches seem to be saying is that it's easier to settle if you are not on an extreme (i.e neither ultra reformed nor sold out totally to emerging church, labyrinths, candles etc). What some churches have said is that there isn't a shortage of candidates - just a shortage of good ones.
Of course the futures project may (will?) change this but there's another story.
In other denominations YMMV but this seems pretty much the Baptist Union perspective.
[ 13. July 2012, 12:54: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
As an ageing Baptist with a pretty liberal theological perspective, I think I would find it hard to get a suitable place. Most Baptist churches seem to want an enthusiastic Evangelical aged about 35 or so - although I may be wrong in that!
In the URC I know there are very few vacancies at present and many of those are only part-time. Given that they have now decided to absolutely link minister numbers to overal membership (which is declining), this means that it could become even harder for ministers to move on. However there is a big "bulge" of folk approaching retirement.
None of this really has much to do with Wycliffe Hall, although the Methodists' recent decision to follow their "Fruitful Fields" report and pull out of some theological colleges could have some big implications for training, within and without their Church.
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Yerevan
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I remember hearing somewhere that the average age of people training for Methodist ministry is now fifty-something, although I can't quite believe thats true.
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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
As an ageing Baptist with a pretty liberal theological perspective, I think I would find it hard to get a suitable place. Most Baptist churches seem to want an enthusiastic Evangelical aged about 35 or so - although I may be wrong in that!
I'd say there are many more baptist churches of a liberal hue than there were even 5 years ago - although they'd probably not use the term. It depends on how you define liberal of course - my definition might not be the same as yours!
Having just been part of the "process" for the first time in 12 years, it's interesting on how different it is. Certainly I had no problems in getting interest from churches nor in settling despite being the wrong end of 50 and being, shall we say, rather robust in some of my theological views and pronouncements. .
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