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Source: (consider it) Thread: Ordinariate repays £1 million
Bishops Finger
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There are a couple of parishes in this Diocese where the priest and a fair number of the congregation went to the Ordinariate. Both now have new priests-in-charge (well, one of them is due later this year - at rugbyplayingpriest's former parish.....) and are very much alive and well. Indeed, relations with the Diocese and its Bishop seem to have been much improved.

One, in fact, reports increased weekday attendance at Mass....though I expect both parishes will build up their Sunday congregations as well as time goes by.

The departure to Rome of the malcontents (sorry, but that's what they seem to me to be in many cases) clears the air, and gives the Holy Spirit a chance to continue Her work in these parishes, without the negative attitude and mudslinging that I (personally) have experienced from those who think the poor old C of E is pants filled with poo.......

YMMV, but the Ordinariate in the UK looks to me to be a transient thing. As the diehards die, so will it be assimilated (resistance is futile) into our sister Church of Rome.

Ian J.

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MarsmanTJ
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quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gee D:
I am puzzled by why there's a problem.

Surely the ordinariate model is one of congregations and their pastors moving as groups to the RC church, and not one of individual clerical submission? In the C of E congregations pay a parish share which more or less covers clergy costs incl pension costs, plus keep up what is usually a very costly building. In the RC church they are, I understand, sharing premises with a rather larger congregation, so that's a big saving (and I guess a welcome little extra for the "hosts"). Surely there ought to be lots of spare cash sloshing around?

What have I missed? [Biased]

Many, if not most of the spiky-ordinariate-minded parishes (or ex-such) from our diocesse are heavily funded by the Evangelicals as they rarely if ever have enough giving to even begin to cover their quota. One parish I know of has giving somewhere between £1-2 per head per week. Certainly not enough to pay their part-time vicar's stipend.

[ed: s is too close to c on my keyboard for my brain sometimes]

[ 01. July 2012, 13:30: Message edited by: MarsmanTJ ]

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by Stranger:

quote:

Maybe so, but before it happened it was possible to envisage some sort of 'convalidation' or 'reception' of Anglican Orders that might be acceptable.

Lol; which part of 'utterly null and void' hinted to you that there would even be a sherry reception for those in Anglican orders?!
ah one does hate to spend time contesting this now quite-dead beast (dinohippus?) on a sunny day, the Octave of Saint John the Baptist, but there were (in the tortoise-like way of such things) initial papers being written to provide folks with discussion points on this. When the archbishops of Canterbury & York brought in the Dutch touch, it was done using documentation and declarations à la Tridentine practice for the purpose of quenching the utterly null etc. The Vatican home industry of preparing opinions and analyses was furiously churning out their stuff in the 1970s during Paul VI's day when OWP began to happen and, with the pontificate of J2P2, that train went into a siding where it has been ever since.

So it was not science fiction and in the unlikely event of OWP never having had transpired, would have been up for serious discussion. But after the Philadelphia Five, it entered into the realms of alternate history.

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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
Not exempt (the exempt charities were scheduled in the various acts) but excepted. It came to the same thing.

At the risk of being as pedantic as you: I did not say they were "Exempt Charities" but that they were exempt from filing accounts with the Charity Commission. I am well aware of the difference been "excepted" and "exempt" and the changes the 2006 Charities Act made to their regulation.

quote:
Of course one reason why you are right is that many of the historic parochial endowments (glebe land) were centralised [=snaffled] and are held and run by the diocese, the income being used collectively -- in our diocese as an offset to the clergy cost calculation. It's also the case that the Charity Commission made many schemes to separate off parochial charities from the PCC funds, and rationalise they way they are run.
Yes, whilst that's true, with something approaching 14,000 parishes, even if you added back those funds, I suspect few would have even approached levels of endowment of £2m. I often spend an hour or two looking at volumes of the Victoria County History. The entries by parish list the value of the living pre "snaffling" and, by reference to tables of monetary vales, very few would seem to have anything approaching the kind of sums that would today convert into that kind of money.

quote:
[I think a PCC with endowment funds (in strict sense) of 250k would be envied by the neighbours.
I'm sure you're right.

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Funny how there is not one mention of Jesus Christ in that article.

It's called faith in action. Never heard of the idea before?
Faith in action? Certainly have. Existentialism, isn't it? [Biased]

Of course, you mean faith put into action, but faith in what? The be-all-and-end-all of the Christian faith is faith in Jesus Christ, true God and true man.

I rather fancy that was what CL was getting at.

Lord have mercy.

I commit you both to the patron saint of lost causes.

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a theological scrapbook

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
2 million is not a lot.

AtB, Pyx_e

No? Give it to me then. I'd find a good use for it.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by Stranger:

quote:

Maybe so, but before it happened it was possible to envisage some sort of 'convalidation' or 'reception' of Anglican Orders that might be acceptable.

Lol; which part of 'utterly null and void' hinted to you that there would even be a sherry reception for those in Anglican orders?!
The hardest bit would have been converting from gin to scotch.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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ardmacha
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One of the real objects of the C.B.S. was to promote the traditional and apostolic custom and rule of fasting before holy Communion and to abolish (or try to) Evening Masses. When Pius XII allowed the Roman Catholics to do an extraordinary and not very "primitive" [the watchword of those liturgical days] about turn, so did the C.B.S., which quickly aped Rome. Apparently they asked the Rev.Prof.Trevor Jalland to come and speak or write to explain how something that could be an essential of practice could be abolished overnight. Does anyone know about this incident the the CBS history ?
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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by Stranger:

quote:

Maybe so, but before it happened it was possible to envisage some sort of 'convalidation' or 'reception' of Anglican Orders that might be acceptable.

Lol; which part of 'utterly null and void' hinted to you that there would even be a sherry reception for those in Anglican orders?!
The hardest bit would have been converting from gin to scotch.
Irish, surely?

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Irish, surely?

I was just about to say the same when you got in first. Switching from Gordons to Jamesons.


Reverting to the charitable objects point though, the CBS was originally set up to encourage members of the CofE to be more 'Catholic' in their approach to the Sacrament. It started in the 1860s, at a time when others had already solved that dilemma for themselves by going over. That option already existed and has existed throughout the society's existence.

Although I can see where their trustees were coming from when they made the controversial grant, if the goal was supposed to be to get Anglicans to be more catholic, funding those who had decided to give up the struggle seems to be more fundamentally contrary to its original purposes than at first sight appears even to those who were already suspicious of the grant.

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Trisagion
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Enoch, that presupposes that the only way to be in any sense "Anglican" is within communion with the Archbishop if Canterbury. Those in continuing churches would claim - with what justification I'm not qualified to judge - to be Anglican. By the same logic, surely members of the Ordinariates could claim the same. Furthermore, since the CC found that, "(t)he precise meaning of Anglican Tradition is unclear", the question would at least seem capable of being asked in more than a mischievous sense.

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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badman
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The objects of the charity are limited to the advancement of the catholic faith in the Anglican Tradition.

I don't think the Roman Catholic church is in the Anglican Tradition.

The CBS is there for those who believe that the Church of England is part of the catholic church. The Ordinariate is there for those who think that it isn't.

And, as for disagreement, the Charity Commission is an independent and expert body which has decided the issue. The former trustees are neither independent nor expert. Their lawyers do not decide, they only advise, and their advice has been proved to be wrong. Absent an appeal, this is no longer a matter of opinion.

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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by badman:
The objects of the charity are limited to the advancement of the catholic faith in the Anglican Tradition.

I don't think the Roman Catholic church is in the Anglican Tradition.

Yes, Badman, but you don't get to make that call. It is at least arguable, as I said earlier, that the Ordinariate is precisely about maintaining some parts of the not easily defined notion of Anglican Tradition in communion with the rest of the Catholic Church.

quote:
The CBS is there for those who believe that the Church of England is part of the catholic church. The Ordinariate is there for those who think that it isn't.
So say you. That isn't what it's objects of the Charity say and neither is that what the Commission found.

quote:
And, as for disagreement, the Charity Commission is an independent and expert body which has decided the issue. The former trustees are neither independent nor expert. Their lawyers do not decide, they only advise, and their advice has been proved to be wrong. Absent an appeal, this is no longer a matter of opinion.
Have you actually read the Commission's decision?

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Basilica
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
The objects of the charity are limited to the advancement of the catholic faith in the Anglican Tradition.

I don't think the Roman Catholic church is in the Anglican Tradition.

Yes, Badman, but you don't get to make that call. It is at least arguable, as I said earlier, that the Ordinariate is precisely about maintaining some parts of the not easily defined notion of Anglican Tradition in communion with the rest of the Catholic Church.
I'm going to ask a very ignorant question here. In what way is the "Anglican tradition" being preserved in the Ordinariate?

They use the RC calendar; many of those who have joined will have used Novus Ordo masses even before their conversion; I doubt many of the priests used traditional Anglican choir dress.

What is it, then, that the Ordinariate is preserving? BCP Evensong? Something I haven't thought of? I'm not in any way denigrating those who have joined, but I genuinely don't understand what it is the Ordinariate is preserving.

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Trisagion
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Ah, the slippery question of what constitutes "patrimony". Well there are a few Ordinariate members hereabouts who'll have to answer that question. I'm a teenage convert from Methodism, whose only exposure to Anglicanism - apart from at school - has been from this side of the Tiber.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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My expectation is that we will see so-called Anglican Patrimony much better maintained within the Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter than within the Ordinariate of OLW. US Episcopalians remained basically faithful to the BCP tradition (per our Scottish-based rite) and this was reflected in the Book of Divine Worship used in the US Anglican Use/Spoecial Pastoral Provision RC parishes. This tradition will be carried forth into the American Ordinariate. The situation is very different in England, where the advanced Anglo-Catholics/Anglo-Papalists adopted the Novus Ordo and spurned the BCP tradition.
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Augustine the Aleut
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Lietuvos puts it IMHO clearly. I must admit that I have always been puzzled that anglo-papalists were looking for an ordinariate, and I suspect that OLW is more of a social (I do not use the term pejoratively, but more of shared history and experience) grouping than a tradition-based one. The BCP-based ordinariates are also drawing from a number of non-Canterbury-related communities, which have been in ecclesiastical orbit for some years now. I am curious as to what the situation will look like in a quarter century from now (presuming that senile dementia has not taken me over by then, so that I will be able to examine it).
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The Man with a Stick
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quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
I'm going to ask a very ignorant question here. In what way is the "Anglican tradition" being preserved in the Ordinariate?

They use the RC calendar; many of those who have joined will have used Novus Ordo masses even before their conversion; I doubt many of the priests used traditional Anglican choir dress.

What is it, then, that the Ordinariate is preserving? BCP Evensong? Something I haven't thought of? I'm not in any way denigrating those who have joined, but I genuinely don't understand what it is the Ordinariate is preserving.

1.) They are not using the Catholic E&W Kalendar - they have had their own approved by Rome. It retains many Anglican bits + pieces, such as the Sundays after Trinity.

2.) They await their Ordinariate form of Mass being approved. They do have interim permission to use the Book of Divine Worship - but this is based on the USA BCP so is rather alien. It is being used in some Ordinariate groups (such as Portsmouth), but many more groups will I'm sure use the new approved rite in due course.

3.) The Offices are clearly very important, yes. Both daily and occasional. And not just the order of service, but also bits & pieces such as the use of (some, carefully selected) non-scriptural readings in the offices.

4.) If you are particularly interested in finding out what's the same and what's different I highly recommend joining a group for worship. Although difficult to describe on paper (arguably), there clearly are positive things that are being (re-)introduced into the mainstream of Catholicism.

I think, in this modern instantaneous age, one can easily forget just how slowly Rome has moved in the past - 18 months is but a blink of an eye. Maybe we can come back and discuss this in 30 years, rather than every 3 weeks? [Smile]

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mdijon
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Isn't having married priests going to remain distinctive for some time?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Basilica
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quote:
Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
1.) They are not using the Catholic E&W Kalendar - they have had their own approved by Rome. It retains many Anglican bits + pieces, such as the Sundays after Trinity.

OK, that's useful knowledge, thanks. But presumably particularly Anglican celebrations (e.g. Charles, King and Martyr, or Edward King, Bishop of Lincoln) won't remain on the calendar?

quote:
2.) They await their Ordinariate form of Mass being approved. They do have interim permission to use the Book of Divine Worship - but this is based on the USA BCP so is rather alien. It is being used in some Ordinariate groups (such as Portsmouth), but many more groups will I'm sure use the new approved rite in due course.
So they are unlikely to use the mass of Paul VI, even if they used it before conversion? Interesting. What will the rite be based on? (Is this straying a bit close to Ecclesiantics? If so, I'll take it over there.)

quote:
4.) If you are particularly interested in finding out what's the same and what's different I highly recommend joining a group for worship. Although difficult to describe on paper (arguably), there clearly are positive things that are being (re-)introduced into the mainstream of Catholicism.
That's a very good idea; I shall endeavour to do so in the near future. There's no chance of my joining, but I'd like to understand the OLW folks a little better.

quote:
I think, in this modern instantaneous age, one can easily forget just how slowly Rome has moved in the past - 18 months is but a blink of an eye. Maybe we can come back and discuss this in 30 years, rather than every 3 weeks? [Smile]
That's a very good point: no doubt things will develop organically. I know a lot of people are slightly sceptical, however, about the long-term viability of the Ordinariate: after the current generation has passed, will there be a successor generation? Or will people join the mainstream Catholic tradition?
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Augustine the Aleut
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Thanks to Man With a Stick, who provides some useful detail.

Basilica writes:
quote:
I know a lot of people are slightly sceptical, however, about the long-term viability of the Ordinariate: after the current generation has passed, will there be a successor generation? Or will people join the mainstream Catholic tradition?
I presume that they will continue, much as the quite small Italo-Albanese jurisdictions maintained Byzantine traditions in southern Italy for the past fifteen centuries. I suppose it's possible that the OLW folk may die out for lack of reproductive activities but they may attract a stream (or trickle, depending on your viewpoint) of converts. I know of one eastern Catholic jurisdiction in Canada which is likely to die out on account of its population assimilating to the mainstream RCs, but other jurisdictions are likely to continue for the imaginable future.
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egg
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
The objects of the charity are limited to the advancement of the catholic faith in the Anglican Tradition.

I don't think the Roman Catholic church is in the Anglican Tradition.

Yes, Badman, but you don't get to make that call. It is at least arguable, as I said earlier, that the Ordinariate is precisely about maintaining some parts of the not easily defined notion of Anglican Tradition in communion with the rest of the Catholic Church.

quote:
The CBS is there for those who believe that the Church of England is part of the catholic church. The Ordinariate is there for those who think that it isn't.
So say you. That isn't what it's objects of the Charity say and neither is that what the Commission found.

quote:
And, as for disagreement, the Charity Commission is an independent and expert body which has decided the issue. The former trustees are neither independent nor expert. Their lawyers do not decide, they only advise, and their advice has been proved to be wrong. Absent an appeal, this is no longer a matter of opinion.
Have you actually read the Commission's decision?



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egg

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The Man with a Stick
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I'm hoping link works. It's an online version of the approved Ordinariate OLW Calendar.

I have very few details as to what the approved Mass will look like. As to which mass version will be used once it has been approved, I imagine the answer will be 'both' - with the balance different in each group.

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Hezekiah
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Does anyone know of a single Ordinariate priest who used Anglican liturgy before joining? I certainly don't.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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If the Eucharistic rites contained in the Book of Divine Worship are rather unfamiliar to UK OLW folks, this is more to do with their previous non-use of the BCP-derived options in Common Worship as well as the CW modern language prayers than with the fact that the BDW is based on the American BCP. The Book of Divine Worship incorporates the Rite I Eucharistic order from the US 1979 BCP, with one of the RC eucharistic prayers being substituted for the usual BCP one (in practice, IME, this is usually the traditional Roman canon that gets used). The Rite I order is essentially a tweaked Cranmerian liturgy with aspects of the original 1549-Scottish order that has always been used in TEC as opposed to the 1552-1662 English order. Rite II is a streamlined modern language order that is similar to analogous options in CW.

I can't imagine that the eventual Anglican liturgies for use in the Ordinariates world-wide will be greatly different to the BDW. I would think only that there might be some tweaking of the traditional language texts away from the slightly modernised and Americanised 1979 BCP versions and toward the traditional versions maintained in CW and in older BCPs. Still, those won't be very familiar things to most OLW folk, whilst in the USA, all older Ordinariate people will be familiar with most of it, since these few bits of language had continued through the era of the (TEC) 1928 BCP, i.e. until the advent of the 1979 book and even longer (to the present) in the liturgies of many of the "continuing" traditionalist Anglican/Episcopalians.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hezekiah:
Does anyone know of a single Ordinariate priest who used Anglican liturgy before joining? I certainly don't. [/QUOTE

I realise you are referring to the UK situation, but in the USA they all used Anglican liturgy before joining the Ordinariate.

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The Man with a Stick
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quote:
Originally posted by Hezekiah:
Does anyone know of a single Ordinariate priest who used Anglican liturgy before joining? I certainly don't.

Yes, several.
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Hezekiah
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Well, they're certainly a small minority.

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2 Kings 3:27

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The Man with a Stick
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quote:
Originally posted by Hezekiah:
Well, they're certainly a small minority.

A majority used 'Anglican liturgy'. In fact, now I think about it, all of them will have (weddings, for example).

Admittedly, a minority will have regularly used entirely Anglican liturgy in a eucharistic service.

However, a duly approved Anglican eucharistic liturgy will likely appeal to those of them whose reasoning for using parts of the Novus Ordo was due to perceived inadequacies in the eucharistic theology of the authorised Anglican rites at the time. Once this 'problem' has been ironed out by the CDF and the CDW, I think it will be embraced.

And anyway, in my opinion, I think they'll have to embrace it if they have a long-term distinctive personality within the Catholic mainstream.

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ardmacha
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I took up the idea of going to an Ordinariate service recently ; an ordination and found NO signs of any anglican spirit,pietas,patrimony, tradition except two anglican hymns. The service was very much like a modern RC Low church service: Bishop and assistants on a podium facing us (behind the Forward altar), Altar Girls, some good vestments,others foul, cassock albs,Handshake of peace. The spirit and atmosphere bore no resemblance to an Anglican one and,you know, I think they all loved it. It seems that the Ordinariate clergy were all Modern Roman Catholics in communion with the See of Canterbury. One was asked what DID they want to bring into the Roman church and there was a long pause and finally: Well we could have a sort of Evensong. The people seem fine,serious good people but not much of the old Anglican spirit. I wish I had stayed at the Solemn evening Mass at Westminster cathedral, at least that had integrity and realism.
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Pyx_e

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I looked up "patrimony" in the dictionary and it showed a picture of a fig leaf.

Honestly was there ever a bigger crock of shit?

AtB, Pyx_e

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
I looked up "patrimony" in the dictionary and it showed a picture of a fig leaf.

Honestly was there ever a bigger crock of shit?

AtB, Pyx_e

Gee whiz Pyx_e, those of us who continue in the Canterbury line deal with so many steaming crocks on a daily basis that it ill behooves us to point out the steaming crocks of others.

If any shipmate happens to be able to MW an Ordinariate service in Canada, the US, or Oz, we might all be in a better position to pontificate.

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Pyx_e

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quote:
Gee whiz Pyx_e, those of us who continue in the Canterbury line deal with so many steaming crocks on a daily basis that it ill behooves us to point out the steaming crocks of others.
Yeah but I was taught a vital difference.

AtB, Pyx_e

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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Comper's Child
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

If any shipmate happens to be able to MW an Ordinariate service in Canada, the US, or Oz, we might all be in a better position to pontificate.

I can only report second hand that a recent ordination in Philadelphia was a NO mass with some "Anglican" accretions - Burgess Plainsong minor propers and several traditional "Anglican hymns".
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Hezekiah
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What makes a hymn part of Anglican patrimony? Any Catholic can use hymns written by Anglicans if they wish. Hymns have never been allocated by denomination.

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2 Kings 3:27

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

If any shipmate happens to be able to MW an Ordinariate service in Canada, the US, or Oz, we might all be in a better position to pontificate.

I can only report second hand that a recent ordination in Philadelphia was a NO mass with some "Anglican" accretions - Burgess Plainsong minor propers and several traditional "Anglican hymns".
That might perhaps not be surprising for an ordination but isn't the kind of eucharistic liturgy the Anglican Use RC parishes have been doing from the BDW, especially in Texas where all their flagship parishes are and which will presumably all be joining up with the Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter, if they haven't yet done so (alternatively, AIUI they can opt to remain personal parishes within their own geographical dioceses).
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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quote:
Originally posted by Hezekiah:
What makes a hymn part of Anglican patrimony? Any Catholic can use hymns written by Anglicans if they wish. Hymns have never been allocated by denomination.

Nothing. Singing them is the Anglican patrimony bit.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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I realise that I have been pushing out into Ecclesiantical territory, but I'm going to push the envelope just a bit further and post this video of an Anglican Use RC Eucharist according to the liturgy of the Book of Divine Worship. It's just an illustration of North American Roman Catholics maintaining Anglican liturgical patrimony. The setting of the Kyrie, for non-North Americans, is by Healey Willan and is part of the most beloved traditional Communion Service used in TEC.
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egg
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Sorry about the mistaken post at 12.48 - it was not intended to go out in anything like that form. Revised version below:

quote:

Originally posted by Trisagion:

quote:
__________________________________________________
(Badman)

The CBS is there for those who believe that the Church of England is part of the catholic church. The Ordinariate is there for those who think that it isn't.
__________________________________________________

So say you. That isn't what it's objects of the Charity say and neither is that what the Commission found.
__________________________________________________

Badman’s summary is neat and accurate. The objects of the charity did not need to spell out the fact that it was and always had been a Church of England charity. The rules of membership, until the Constitution was changed in 2010 to allow the admission of members of the (as yet unformed) Ordinariate, required members to be members of the Church of England or of a church in full communion therewith (1999 Constitution Rule 5.2: ‘Membership of the Confraternity shall be open to communicant members of the Church of England and Churches in full communion with the Church of England who also support the Objects, accept the catholic faith and observe the practices of the catholic religion.’)

What the Charity Commission found was that the decision to pay £1 million to the Ordinariate was invalid because the majority of the trustees had a (financial) personal interest in the decision; and that it was also in breach of the charity’s governing document.

As for the use made by the CBS of its income, it is a good deal more than merely providing vessels and vestments to Anglo-Catholic parishes as appears to have been suggested. The income is fully utilised, and is needed for the work of the Confraternity. The Trustees’ Annual Reports for the past five years or more have set out some of its activities:

“ln furtherance of its objects the Confraternity organises services and meetings at national, District and local Ward level. lt publishes a Manual of devotions for public and private use by Associates. The Quarterly contains Eucharistic teaching and also contains lntercessions to help Associates fulfil the second Object (prayer for one another at the Eucharist). lt encourages adherence to the third Object (careful preparation for and reception of Holy Communion, including the Eucharistic fast), by teaching through the Manual and Quarterly and by example in its own services. lt gives grants of vessels and vestments to parishes at home and abroad for the reverent celebration and Reservation of the Eucharist. lt also provides funding to other groups for purposes which reflect the Confraternity's Objects; this includes efforts to ensure that there will continue to be priests ordained in accordance with traditional Catholic order and sacraments on which Catholics can rely within the Church of England” (Report for year ending 31 January 2011 - note the last five words, signed by Fr Christopher Lindlar, then Secretary-General of the CBS, at a time when he was already, I think, a member of the Ordinariate)).

It does not seem to me that there can be any doubt that the decision of the Charity Commission was correct, and that the Ordinariate was right to return the £1 million with interest.

[ 02. July 2012, 15:08: Message edited by: egg ]

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egg

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Gee whiz Pyx_e, those of us who continue in the Canterbury line deal with so many steaming crocks on a daily basis that it ill behooves us to point out the steaming crocks of others.
Yeah but I was taught a vital difference.

AtB, Pyx_e

Not to beat this topic further, but I claim supremacy in this topic on the grounds of having prepared correspondence, briefings, and speaking notes for five Liberal and seven Conservative ministers, as well as for having analyzed decades of messaging, texts, and synodical documents on a certain dead horse. I know a crock when I see one.
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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Hezekiah:
Does anyone know of a single Ordinariate priest who used Anglican liturgy before joining? I certainly don't.

I know two.They both used Common Worship rite A

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k-mann
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# 8490

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quote:
Originally posted by badman:
The objects of the charity are limited to the advancement of the catholic faith in the Anglican Tradition.

And how do you determine what constitutes ‘the Anglican Tradition’? Is it ‘being in communion with +Canterbury’? Or ‘sharing the same doctrines?’ If it’s eiter of those, then the CBS couldn’t ever give anything to continuing anglican churches, since they are not in communion with +Canterbury, and since they clearly have differences in doctrine, including views on the ordination of women.

quote:
Originally posted by badman:
I don't think the Roman Catholic church is in the Anglican Tradition.

But why, exactly? What makes it different from, say, the TAC? The TAC has other doctrines than the CofE. It doesn’t matter if you, or the CofE, calls it an adiaphoron, since they don’t. The question is what constitutes ‘the Anglican tradition.’

quote:
Originally posted by badman:
The CBS is there for those who believe that the Church of England is part of the catholic church. The Ordinariate is there for those who think that it isn't.

So you would then exclude any continuing anglican body? Many of them doesn’t believe that the CofE is part of the catholic church.

quote:
Originally posted by badman:
And, as for disagreement, the Charity Commission is an independent and expert body which has decided the issue. The former trustees are neither independent nor expert. Their lawyers do not decide, they only advise, and their advice has been proved to be wrong. Absent an appeal, this is no longer a matter of opinion.

Yes, but it seems that the catholicity or possible non-anglicanicity of the Ordinariate had nothing to do with that decision. It seems more as case of a conflict of interest.

And I can also note that the CBS, as I’ve been told, has members in the (Lutheran) Church of Sweden.

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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich

Katolikken

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ardmacha
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I decided to go to an Ordinariate service. I was very disappointed: no sign of any Anglican style,spirit,vesture - two fine old Anglican hymns - apart from that, just an ordinary Modern RC service, the Sacred ministers grinning behind an altar table, altar girls, cassock albs. I cannot see what Anglican Patrimony has been brought. Most of the Ordinariate people seem happy with the New Mass, Divine Office, hand shakes of peace. I should have stuck with the Solemn evening Mass at Westminster Cathedral,at least that seemed real and has integrity.
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Lyda*Rose

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# 4544

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quote:
Originally posted by ardmacha:
I decided to go to an Ordinariate service. I was very disappointed: no sign of any Anglican style,spirit,vesture - two fine old Anglican hymns - apart from that, just an ordinary Modern RC service, the Sacred ministers grinning behind an altar table, altar girls, cassock albs. I cannot see what Anglican Patrimony has been brought. Most of the Ordinariate people seem happy with the New Mass, Divine Office, hand shakes of peace. I should have stuck with the Solemn evening Mass at Westminster Cathedral,at least that seemed real and has integrity.

I'm sorry to hear it. I rather hoped that the RCC would gain a certain innovative gracefulness and lovely stuffiness in some of their liturgy. Ah, well.

--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Magic Wand
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quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

If any shipmate happens to be able to MW an Ordinariate service in Canada, the US, or Oz, we might all be in a better position to pontificate.

I can only report second hand that a recent ordination in Philadelphia was a NO mass with some "Anglican" accretions - Burgess Plainsong minor propers and several traditional "Anglican hymns".
It was desired in this case to have a more distinctive Ordinariate (B.D.W.) liturgy, but prohibited by the ordaining bishop. I think if you attended a regular Sunday service you'd find much more of the Anglican Patrimony.
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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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So I wrote to Websters and asked them to add to the "fig leaf" entry.

I suggested: Patrimony, including some minor liturgical changes to justify wondering off with £1,000,000.

I will let you know if they reply.

AtB, Pyx_e, who grew out of obssesing about the liturgy or deluding myself that the vast majority of the unchurched gave a monkies about who wrote the damn hymn by the age of 12.

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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quote:
Originally posted by Magic Wand:
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

If any shipmate happens to be able to MW an Ordinariate service in Canada, the US, or Oz, we might all be in a better position to pontificate.

I can only report second hand that a recent ordination in Philadelphia was a NO mass with some "Anglican" accretions - Burgess Plainsong minor propers and several traditional "Anglican hymns".
It was desired in this case to have a more distinctive Ordinariate (B.D.W.) liturgy, but prohibited by the ordaining bishop. I think if you attended a regular Sunday service you'd find much more of the Anglican Patrimony.
I had myself thought of the more benign explanation that an ordaining RC bishop wouldn't be familiar with the BDW liturgy and hence would want to use the standard NO liturgy. It's truly dismaying if the bishop, in a more negative sense, actually prohibited the use of the BDW against the wishes of the congregation in the ordination mass.
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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by ardmacha:
I decided to go to an Ordinariate service. I was very disappointed: no sign of any Anglican style,spirit,vesture - two fine old Anglican hymns - apart from that, just an ordinary Modern RC service, the Sacred ministers grinning behind an altar table, altar girls, cassock albs. I cannot see what Anglican Patrimony has been brought. Most of the Ordinariate people seem happy with the New Mass, Divine Office, hand shakes of peace. I should have stuck with the Solemn evening Mass at Westminster Cathedral,at least that seemed real and has integrity.

I was asked to go to an Ordinariate service. It was a first Mass in Oxford. It was markedly distinct from modern Catholic practice. It was celebrated ad orientem in English, using the new translation of the Roman Missal, with beautiful choral music and hymns I have rarely heard in the Catholic Church. The preaching was of an astonishingly high standard and much longer than usual in the Catholic Church. It lasted more than an hour.

I was asked to go to another Ordinariate service. It was a Mass celebrated by the Ordinary. It, too, was markedly distinct from modern Catholic practice. It, too, was celebrated ad orientem in English, but this time using the Book of Divine Worship. I was struck by how much of the BCP Communion Service from my schooldays there appeared to be. The music and hymnody was distinctively Anglican (Stanford, Merbecke, Ken, Keble and John Mason Neale) and sung/performed to a very high standard) and the Ordinary preached - in a style and at a length that Catholic bishops would never dare.

Mileage varies, I guess.

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Comper's Child
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
That might perhaps not be surprising for an ordination but isn't the kind of eucharistic liturgy the Anglican Use RC parishes have been doing from the BDW, especially in Texas where all their flagship parishes are and which will presumably all be joining up with the Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter, if they haven't yet done so (alternatively, AIUI they can opt to remain personal parishes within their own geographical dioceses).

I gather O L of the Atonement will not be going the Ordinariate but will remain and Anglican Use parish - does that make any sense to anyone? To me it adds to the confusion.
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Maureen Lash
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quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
does that make any sense to anyone? To me it adds to the confusion.

It makes sense if they do not wish to be subject to the Ordinary, I should have thought.
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